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@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 17 күн бұрын
45:00 Thanks so much for the shout out Clare!!!! Loved this video! Nashe has to be at the heart of so much of this stuff. And this is definitely a moment where I cannot throw Sidney's name in the hat to help solve it--at least not directly. I need to dive deeper into DeVere biography and re-tread his writings soon. This is super timely as always--like I said, you have an absolute knack for that. But David Richardson has been reaching out to Brady and I about getting together with you and Daniel Cowan and Marianna and maybe a few others to do a thorough study of Nashe and Harvey with all our various perspectives. I think he's suggesting we do some sort of filing sharing type thing where we can all simultaneously read through them over several weeks or months and leave our notes for everyone else to read. We may not come to anything like a consensus, but seeing stuff in real time from another perspective might be the grease we need to get the wagon wheels turning. Brady was thinking maybe we could do all that via a Discord server. I will keep you updated on this potential endeavour. I need to check back in with David here soon. Thanks again for the video Clare and especially the shout out at the end which was incredibly thoughtfully worded.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 17 күн бұрын
Sounds like a great idea to all take a look at Nash and Harvey. I am reading Pierce Penniless, especially his "Supplication to the Devil". It is really descriptive, the images leap off the page. The characters are very Dickensian, I wonder whether Dickens read Nashe.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 16 күн бұрын
​@@ContextShakespeare1740I don't have a source on hand to confirm or deny this, but I think you are 150% correct to suggest Dickens is reading his Nashe. If Dickens is willing to model his greatest novel on the poetry of Philip Sidney (Great Expectations,) I would hazard to guess he's reading Nashe in droves. Let us remember Dickens was WS doubter while we consider all of this too. Just look at Xmas Carol: Marley is named after Kit Marlowe (whose only signature reads Marley.) Pretty sure Dickens is Dickens partly because he is so thoroughly internalizing English Ren Lit.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 17 күн бұрын
8:53 I'm reminded of Samuel and William Rowley who seem to have pretty suspect Bios as well.
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 17 күн бұрын
Thanks for another amazing video on the authorship issue. I love that you began with your sources and explaining that you used critical thinking skills. Sadly critical thinking is no longer taught in schools in much of Canada and the US. Students are expected to believe anything they are told no matter what the sources are. That explains why so many Millennials and their kids and grandkids believe so much nonsense about things like vaccines, progressive conspiracies, and will vote against their own best interests. But I digress. I like that you described what type of evidence you used. Too often authorship videos and papers will accept whatever mainstream scholars have written without question. I have learned that you must question everything about the Stratford myth since so much evidence those scholars use does nothing to prove their case and is irrelevant. You definitely put the story in its proper context and your attention to detail is always needed in the discussion. Keep up the great work. We need more scholars like you to set the record straight about Elizabethan and early Jacobean times which have erroneously been dubbed "merry old England". Those times were hardly merry. Thanks for referencing Diana Price's book Shakespeare's Unorthodox Biography. The more her findings are spread, the less likely it is that people will still believe the Stratford narrative in the future. Her research is compelling and demands an answer from mainstream scholars, who have seemingly ignored it long after it was published in the early 2000s. I just noticed that the clouds in the upper-left of the Nashe woodcut (5:03) resemble the backside of someone "passing wind" shown from the waist down, complete with a cartoon-like cloud of gas. The image is completed by a tiny right leg pointing to the right. It may be how I perceive it, but with a little examination you can see how different those clouds are from the clouds on the right. I believe that it was meant to depict something comical since we have the more ordinary clouds on the right to compare them to. If they were meant to be seen as that, then it is evidence that Nashe didn't exist as a real person but was either an allonym or pseudonym. In other words, the writer was an inside joke.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 17 күн бұрын
Thanks for your comments, Yes I saw the but passing wind as well. Another clue that it is all a lot of hot air.
@CulinarySpy
@CulinarySpy 21 күн бұрын
Thank you Clare for your excellent video, well voiced and very nicely enhanced with pertinent graphics.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 20 күн бұрын
Thank you so much for your kind comment, I was thinking that it wasn't one of my best. There is so much stuff in Nashe's writing and replies to his writing it is difficult to cover everything, but I hope I gave a good overview of the main points. What do you think? Was he a real writer or not?
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 21 күн бұрын
sicttasd.tripod.com/letter.html A letter from George Carey to his wife sicttasd.tripod.com/wclet.html letter to William Cotton www.jstor.org/stable/511482?seq=3 Thomas Nash and William Cotton lostplays.folger.edu/Terminus_et_Non_Terminus Https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/Eagle/Eagle%20Volumes/1950s/1950/Eagle_1950_Lent.pdf Nashe's verses from Ecclesiasticus
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 26 күн бұрын
Hey Clare, just wanted to swing by and say you officially stumped me. The only anadiploses I can find with that complete a structure are EO's poem, PS's A&S 1 and WS. I'm sure there are more out there, but just trying to scan and/or search for them is yielding no results. I'm just gonna have to keep it in back of my mind while I read and maybe down the road another will pop up. I wish there was some kind of rhetorical database for this kind of thing. Easy enough to search for words on EEBO, but rhetorical devices don't seem to have some easy access. I will say while I was looking, I re-read through Drayton's Idea Sonnets and I guess I need to start keying in Drayton more. That was sort of big push for Stotsenberg and we talk about it in our Bob Prechter video, but I've been letting it kind of slide because no one else seems to be interested. But that's clearly a mistake on my part because Drayton seems to be a WS writer. Idea has a ton of WS language, images and metaphors, most notably from Macbeth: "Why should nature niggardly restrain" (XXV) "Call back the stiff-necked rebels from exile, and mollify the slaughtering gallowglass" (ibid) "Was held in scorn...though of a goddess born" (XXII) "He is as young as when he was first born...laugh us to scorn." (XXI) "And idiots are still running after boys" (ibid)
@russellmartocci323
@russellmartocci323 2 ай бұрын
Shakespeare in Context is excellently researched and dense with historical information. It's a pleasure to enjoy these, but you must pay close attention to really follow the copious details. I've had to watch this video many times before I could move on to the 2nd part. The content creator should revisit the audio editing on each of these or just record new scripts. They're too good to have muddled editing with potentially lost text.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 2 ай бұрын
Hi, I am glad that you enjoy the videos. I am sorry that the audio gets muddled. It is perfect when I play the final presentation, but then gets a bit messed up when I export it to an MP4 file. I have tried a few different ways to fix this with a little success, if you have any suggestions I would be very grateful. If it was a problem with the original it is easily fixed.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 2 ай бұрын
24:00 Just gotta pop in to leave my obligatory "Don't Forget Sidney!" facts: Sidney seems to have spent an exorbitant amount of my money, time and energy procuring books during his continental tour. Sidney also visited Venice, that seems to have been his favorite Italian destination. Of all courtiers (or just people in general) of the era, Sidney by far has the deepest connection with John Dee. If we are invoking Dee, we should be bringing up Sidney in consideration. Dee himself stated rather unequivocally that Sidney was his best and brightest pupil in pretty much all subject matters. As you and Patrick have pointed out, Sidney also seems to reference Tempest in DoP. Also unrelated to Sidney, I want to suggest a late 80s or early 90s iteration of the play (though not as the original version, and probably not final version either) 1) Structured like a Lyly play 2) Ferdinand as main character suggest Lord Strange 3) The word "strange" seems to appear in higher percentage in plays known to have been by Strange's Men, an argument used to prove Stratford as Hand D circa 93 over John Webster as Hand D circa 1600, YET the word strange appears in Tempest more than any Folio play. 4) I've wondered if Prospero throwing down his staff/book might be read as Lyly retiring circa early 90's.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 2 ай бұрын
I don't disagree with any of your argument here, but I fail to see why it would apply more to Sidney than Oxford. Lyly of course worked closely with Oxford. I don't see that Prospero is a character to be admired, and I found the links with Dee superficial. Prospero is the author, the teller of the story. His magical power is an imaginary state of mind, perhaps a psychotic episode, which begins with a storm, and isolation, and ends with calm and resolution. There seems to be some evidence that Oxford had a bipolar disorder, contemporaries of his describe crazy manic type episodes, and his poetry reflects melancholy. Philip Sidney was described as a heroic character, perhaps a bit of a hot head, but not one given to manic mood swings. (relate also to your comment on Comedy of Errors)
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 2 ай бұрын
20:34 interesting that a Harvard psychologist Lisa Knight is trying two spot Shakespeare by diagnosing and documenting his mental and emotional state this indeed has led her not to Edward devere but to Phillip Sydney
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 2 ай бұрын
please could you supply a link to Lisa's work
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 2 ай бұрын
Antipholus sure sounds like Philip Sidney talk: Centaur, gangrenous wound...
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 2 ай бұрын
Lovely video Clare! Especially as a first video! So I don't think you're right about Malvolio being Hatton. I think William Knollys is the actual Malvolio figure. I won't go too much into that but just wanted to relay why it's not Hatton: From Patrick Buckridge: "The hoaxing letter in Twelfth Night is not written by Malvolio, but to him: the posy should thus logically be associated not with the receiver of the letter but with its real or ostensible writer - that is, with Maria or Olivia, neither of whom makes much of a Hatton figure. Similarly, the 'sheep-biter' epithet does not equate at all easily with 'sheep' (even 'sheep-who-bites',/>ace Ogburn ).' A 'sheep-biter', according to the OED , is primarily 'a dog that bites or worries sheep', with several secondary meanings, one of which, "a malicious or censorious fellow' fits Malvolio well enough.* If the 'sheep' element in the epithet does, or did at some stage in the play' s evolution, contain a cryptic allusion to Hatton, it would more logically have been a reference to somebody who was an enemy, or at least a nuisance, to Hatton (as the dog is to the sheep) than to Hatton himself. If, for the sake of argument, the name of Edward D e Vere were proposed in place of Christopher Hatton as the original for Malvolio, it would at least highlight the reversibility of several of the Oxfordian arguments about Malvolio; the known enmity between the two men, their suspected sexual intentions towards the Queen, and the image ofthe affected fop. All of these can support an Oxford allusion as strongly as a Hatton one. Gabriel Harvey's "Mirror of Tuscanism" provides a well-known description of Oxford's affected foppery on his return from Italy in 1575, and this description provides at least as plausible an external referent for Malvolio's sartorial aberration as anything in Hatton's reputation. There are, of course, many ways in which Malvolio is patently not Oxford: Malvolio is a servant and a stickler for moral proprieties, and Oxford was neither. But no more was Hatton. And if the meaning of Malvolio's name-'I wish [thee] ill' -were to be applied to areal individual at Elizabeth's court there were undoubtedly many there who would have thought (rightiy or wrongly) that it fitted the haughty Oxford better than the courteous Hatton." Buckridge doesn't mean to say Malvolio is Oxford, but that these generic traits fit a lot of folks, such that Oxford fits the bill as much as Hatton once we realize the Fortunate&Happy and Sheep references aren't to Malvolio but to the folks who are antagonizing Malvolio (Maria [Mary], Toby [?], Andrew[Philip/Hatton composite], which is to say Sidney circle folks. But along those lines Orsino is better described as/by Leicester. His herald is the Bear with the Ragged Staff. Hence Orsino, Italian for Bear. (Similarly, Oberon is a pun, O-bear-on. Bear itself is a pun on his name in French, "ro-bear")
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 2 ай бұрын
I think that the strongest clue about Hatton is the interrogation of Edmund Campion. There are lots of other clues that Malvolio the steward to Olivia is based on the Queen's dancing chancellor Hatton. I agree with your suggestion that Orsino is Leicester. "TOBY Wouldst thou not be glad to have the niggardly rascally sheep-biter come by some notable shame? FABIAN I would exult, man. You know he brought me out o’ favor with my lady about a bearbaiting here. TOBY To anger him, we’ll have the bear again, and we will fool him black and blue, shall we not, Sir Andrew?" Even though the letter would seem to be signed the Fortunate-Unhappy, it actually reads: "She that would alter services with thee, The Fortunate-Unhappy." Also there seems to be a comparable alphabetical joke relating to Hatton in Loves Labours Lost. "AB reversed BA, a most silly sheep the last of the four vowels if you repeat them the fifth if I. I will repeat them a,e,i- The sheep the other two concludes it ou." (LLL) “M.” But then there is no consonancy in the sequel that suffers under probation. “A” should follow, but “O” does. FABIAN, aside And “O” shall end, I hope. TOBY, aside Ay, or I’ll cudgel him and make him cry “O.” MALVOLIO And then “I” comes behind. (TN) So perhaps there is some alphabetical word game played at court by Hatton, or relating to Hatton.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 3 ай бұрын
I was leaving comments piecemeal and they spiraled out of all proportion, so I'm collating them into one here: First off, HATS OFF to you Claire. This is really amazing work. I donno how you're able to so fluidly move from seeming minutiae to seeming minutiae only to make us realize they are profound pieces of evidence. I hope one day you sit down with John Lyly's Endymion or Campaspe and give one of them the same ContextWS treatment because I think you could knock it out of the park. But some notes for this video: 1:37 No Joke. What a task. 3:56 Neville's continental tour included Robert Sidney as well I believe. I know in 78/79 they visited Vienna together, meaning those two (and obviously, of course, Philip Sidney in 73) are the only WS candidates to visit the location of Measure for Measure. 22:07 Could this be the same CYGNUS as the one who writes a predatory poem for Jonson's Sejanus? The other unnamed poet in that prefatory material is PHILO--also heavily suggestive of Philip. Dating should preclude that possibility, but wilder things have happened. (Sidenote/SneakPeek: Brady, Daniel Cowan and I are attempting to get John Dee's Horoscope for Sidney translated, which is still in process, but so far seems like the conventional dating for that Horoscope is correct, 1570. John Dee indeed seems to predict Sidney's death exactly to the year and cause a decade and half before the event, but not conclusive until we get more translated) 23:26 Not sure if relevant to the reference being made here, but Falconbridge I think should call to mind King John. Falconbridge's heir is kind of the start of the whole play, as the two Falconbridge brothers are arguing over his inheritance. One of them is disinherited when he realizes he is the bastard of King Richard. What was his name? PHILIP. 29:34 Absolutely brilliant. Love this. 41:39 Not quite. Yes, Harvey is Hobbinol, and yes, technically sort of Spenser is Colin--but Spenser isn't actually Colin Clout. That is Sidney. (Citation needed on my part) Harvey himself seemed to have an actual attraction to Sidney which Katherine Duncan Jones relates in her biography of Sidney. Harvey apparently wrote several erotic poems for/about Sidney. Apparently it creeped Sidney out. Not sure of the dating on those, which will be majorly important. So Hobby Horse, seems to me not just a reference to Hobbinol, but a reference to his being a major fanboy of Sidney, as Philip is horse lover in Greek. Which brings up my last point below... 49:03 I'm not so sure Sidney was anything like a fan of Harvey's. Duncan-Jones seems to almost paint the opposite picture. Sidney seems aloof to Harvey and then off-put by Harvey. And this wouldn't be too out of the norm. That seems like almost the MO of Sidney--in stark contrast to Oxford--Sidney never seems to champion any of his patronees, and, often seems to demure or ignore some. Let us remember Gosson's attack on the Theatre was dedicated to Sidney. How did Sidney follow that up? By completely disagreeing with Gosson, and flipping the script by writing Defence of Poetry. Similarly, to whom is Bruno dedicating his Heroic Furies? Sidney. I could flip the script and ask, who is/are the only candidates with heavy ties to Bruno--whose presence could explain the difference of Biron and Berowne? Well, it's Florio and Sidney. And as much as Florio has ties to French in 83-85, he doesn't have the 70s ties. And as much as we want to make factional divides, Nashe prints Sidney. EO is in that printing as EO. If we're able to say Oxford can write a play (or many plays) about Leicester and Queen--is there really all that much factionality happening? So my two cents, without too much stylistic evidence to back it up, at least at the moment... This is all right in line with pretty much everything I've been pitching over the last year: both Lyly and early WS is a merging of EO and PS. And it's not just them two, they're just the two best and brightest by 78. But if we go all the way back to 63 with Tancred and Gismund, we see the model for Elizabethan drama and for WS specifically comes from courtly masques. We also see that the norm always was collaboration amongst nobles. So this is the same crowd writing the Golden Tree Tilt in 81. Same crowd writing 100 Sundry Flowers, Paradise of Dainty Devices. If we wanted to go farther ahead than LLL, all this still holds--TGV, CoE, MND are other easy examples of this. BUTTTT this is super general and begs for stylistic analysis to get to the knitty-gritty details: how many hands, and who is which? Somewhat relatedly, Bob is on the right track, but I think he far too often oversteps: Greene and Nashe are often the same hands--plural, Nashe is more the one and Greene is more the other. We can see this more readily as those hands/voices develop into their new monikers, Dekker and Chettle respectively. I'm stating this all rather matter of factly, but fact is these are no facts, but my general leanings--but after a couple years of doubting my leanings only to find them having some actual integrity and import, I've decided maybe I'm not crazy and maybe I actually do know what--somewhat at least--I'm talking about. Claire this video absolutely made my day, week and month. THANK YOU. Please keep them coming!!! (No rush/No pressure😅) One last open ended question: If Berowne is Oxford, what are we to make of Rosaline? Anne Cecil? Penelope Rich? Anne Vavasour? (For any Florio fans reading this, same question may be asked of Bruno) She just seems a little too realized to not be a stand in in this allegory.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 3 ай бұрын
Thank you for your deep dive reply. So many questions still to answer about this play. I will take on board your comments. But I feel is is time to move on to the next. I have just bought OV and think it will be monumental in starting to unravel 16th Century literature. I hope you have joined the OV FB page and have seen my post urging you to read "Foure Letters". I will look at your comments above in more detail and try and reply. Clare (no i) 😉😁
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 2 ай бұрын
​@@ContextShakespeare1740 Thanks Clare!!! 😅 Honestly, can't thank you enough for this video. I don't have FB unfortunately, but I'll see if Brady can make one for us for our channel and join. Bob being the standout guy that he is let Brady and I have access to OV back in August and I've been perusing it since. I use it more as a reference book than reading it like textbook or monograph. I'd say I've covered a good 500ish pages. Mostly Henslowe era, but also a good chunk of the Marlowe and Lyly sections as well. I've hopped around his Greene and Nashe stuff. As awesome as Bob is, I have to say I'm no great fan of his theory or his methodologies or his argumentation. He hops around so much that I never feel like we get a real argument or proof. It feels a lot more like a collection of Anti-Stratfordian facts and sentiments that revolve around Oxford. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as far as research goes. But I'm finding I feel that way about a lot of SAQ books/theories, especially Oxfordian. Just read a chapter or two of Eva Turner Clark's Hidden Shakespeare today (R&J, MND, Troilus) and I feel similarly about that as I do OV. Still both are much better in my than Ogburns. Also read a chapter of that today for the first time in a long long time. I'm struck by how liberally they state potential claims as facts. I never noticed back in the day, hard not to notice now. But that may explain why I am so enamored with your series doing deep dives on these plays. It's a breath of fresh air going this deep. It's also wonderful that you stay focused on the play in context. All that said, it would be very very helpful to see other folks' reactions in real time to see if I'm missing something, or even perhaps see what folks find so appealing/persuasive about Bob's Theory, especially as it is present in OV, so joining or following along with FB group might be a good idea.
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 3 ай бұрын
I have been checking every day for this. Thanks for another great presentation on what Stratfordians call a "difficult" play. Well, it is difficult for them since they cannot reconcile the life of "their man" to the content of the play. As usual, you are advancing Shakespearean studies by leaps and bounds. Your careful research and delightful narration make what could be a difficult play even for doubters, much easier to understand. Thank you for making such a pun- and joke-laden play so clear. You have done an exceptional job going through the play to find them all, or at least most of them. How ironic that Harvey could not find Greene or Nashe, when "they" were always at court. (48:28) I love your tribute to Alexander Waugh and your father. Both encouraged a fantastic and thorough scholar of the first rank.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 3 ай бұрын
Thanks for your kind remarks, I think you can understand why the delay. Yes I think that it is as important to get the right when and where, as it is to get the right who. They go hand in hand.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 3 ай бұрын
This is all too timely Claire. Marianna over at ResoluteFlorio just dropped her LLL video (which is very interesting, linking it to Bruno and Florio naturally a la Yates). But I will say it was so focused on 83-85 that I found myself wishing I had you present to help me connect her dots to the 70s. Also see that some of my favorite folks on YT are all chiming in here! Dare I say, a community is building? (Not too loudly lest my breath blow out that candle) Also haven't watched/listened at all yet. Literally saw it and clicked. Will be back after listening (as soon as tonight as late as Friday.) So glad you're back!!
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 2 ай бұрын
hi, can you contact me, perhaps through FB? I would like to discuss an idea I have related to Sidney, not about LLL.
@DavidRichardson-y3b
@DavidRichardson-y3b 3 ай бұрын
That is a lot to chew on. There are so many topical readings of LLL and all seem to be well supported by the text; I am still looking for a unitary reading which seems acceptable. Just a quick note. By all accounts it was Lyly who convinced Oxford that Harvey had attacked him, long before Nashe was on the scene. Harvey's denials strike me as less than sincere, he and Spenser are pretty firmly attached to the Leicester/Sidney circle by the time of the Audley End visit.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 3 ай бұрын
I don't think you can get a unitary reading there are as always too many layers. As for Nash I think I intimated that he was in fact Oxford. You are right of course about Harvey, he announces one thing and thinks that he is clever enough to hide what he knows, but he is not as clever as other dissemblers.
@DavidRichardson-y3b
@DavidRichardson-y3b 3 ай бұрын
@@ContextShakespeare1740 there is a vast recent scholarship on Harvey based on his extensive surviving annotations. It really changed my understanding of where he is coming from.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 3 ай бұрын
16:26 Thankkkkkkkk youuuuuuuuu!! Been trying to get folks to look at LoM for better part of a year--like LLL (and Lyly's plays), LoM is yet another static drama filled with a wily batch of varied characters that is also an allegory for QE and Leic. There is a loose but direct connection between Rhombus and LLL. LLL clearly features ideas and lines from Bruno. Bruno's iteration of the Art of Memory is totally aligned against Peter Ramus. Sidney clearly uses Rhombus to evoke Ramus. Sidney himself seemed to straddle between the 2 schools, hence Bruno's insistence to change Philip's mind as he dedicates several works around 83 to Sidney, including the Heroic Furies. The title itself links back to ideas and aspects of Sidney that link to Lyly... Endymion has a chacrater named Eumenides, who I have pitched as Sidney before, but Eumenides is another name for the Divine Furies. Sidney, in DoP, also lists being able to act as the divine furies of the gods as one of the reasons for writing poetry--in fact is directly after/part of his famous line that poetry's purpose is darkly couched in mystery, so that profane wits don't abuse.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 3 ай бұрын
Oops, sorry David, meant to leave that above post in the general comments. But I am deeply ambivalent about unitary reading of this play. I see the points of both sides while not seeing the answer for either. Daniel and I were discussing this and we should probably get at least 3 readings: -original 70's masque (French marriage politics) -early 80s rework (addition of Bruno) -early 90s rework (addition of Harvey-Nashe wars and change of Henry to Ferdinand to represent Strange) We probably shouldn't get a unitary reading. BUT, seems that within each time period we should be able to conjecture or reverse engineer a unitary reading for each of those chronologies. What will make that difficult is if that number is bigger than 3. Say if we had a late 80s post-Leicester re-work, or yet another re-work after Strange dies and companies realign, might be hard to parse from another nearby reworking. But I think LLL is by no means special in that regard. Not sure, but I think Claire is sort of on the same page as me here, we can do the same with a bunch of WS. MND is one that I keep going back to. I think MND is probably the merging of a Sidney masque and early Oxford comedy. Oxford's would cover the lover's square/triangle with 2 couples. Sidney's would cover Puck, Titania, Oberon and a proto-Bottom. When the two get merged the 3rd storyline of community theatre for wedding would be added. But when that reworking/3rd storylines happens/gets added is above my current pay grade--not too sure.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 3 ай бұрын
@@chancecolbert7249 I totally agree, at points in my research I was thinking that some parts of the play didn't fit with my previous analysis, but then I had to keep reminding myself that it was a different era, a reworking, so it didn't have to fit. I concentrated on the 1578 original and the later 1590's reworking, I missed the 1580's evidence, but I think that the video was long enough. My 2023 summary covers some of these ideas of merging and separating. For example the entertainment involving a shipwreck which might have started as one masque evolves into The Tempest, Twelfth night and perhaps the Comedy of Errors. The ideas of characters being separated then brought together form a theme which is used in MSND. There is a clear reference to the cold summer of 1594, the only one of it's kind in the weather records of the second half of the 1500's, the final version could not have been written prior to this, de Vere's daughter's wedding followed soon after. A thought just occurred to me that he might have brought together some favourite masques of his daughter or son in law, for a super well woven compilation for their wedding celebrations.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 3 ай бұрын
kzbin.info/www/bejne/mH3FYZVup8Rsibs Bob Prechter on Thomas Nashe Part 1 kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3jQmISZmdiUY6c Bob Prechter on Thomas Nashe Part 2 + Q&A kzbin.info/www/bejne/aorRoahnq9WGna8 Professor Rima Greenhill: Elizabeth I & Ivan the Terrible as Inspiration for Love's Labour's Lost. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXqUpqyuhtGFias Loves Labours Lost 1975 shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/wp-content/uploads/Oxfordian2006_Miller-Oaths.pdf Oaths foresworn in Loves Labour Lost www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Grief_and_Women_Writers_in_the_English_R/EYkaBQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=I+have+found+unum+par,+a+pair,+papisticorum+bedorum&pg=PA50&printsec=frontcover www.manchesterhive.com/display/9781526142597/9781526142597.00011.xml Spenser and Harvey philological.cal.bham.ac.uk/forsett/act2trans.html Pedantius babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005586832&seq=9 Eva Turner Clarke babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005586832&seq=116 page 98 Pricket, Sore, Sorel nosweatshakespeare.com/resources/shakespeare-insults/ quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A93591.0001.001/1:6.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext ECLOGUE I. Treating of honest Love and its happy success Intituled FAUSTUS. (Mantuan) kzbin.info/www/bejne/fmLCc3Vmgtx-bq8 LOVE'S LABOUR'S LOST | PART 5: GIORDANO BRUNO'S COMEDY IS THE REAL SOURCE OF THE PLAY
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 4 ай бұрын
ABSOLUTELY love all of the close readings. And indeed Alencon as bottom is spot on. BUT one issue I have with MND as by EO is--well I have a few issues: 1) Oberon suggests Leicester--why would EO write a play for or about Leicester? 2) EO is pro French marriage, why is he spoofing the same man he was in support of? 3) MND seems mostly if not completely analogous to Endymion in respect of the allegorical interpretation. I still struggle with Oxfordian readings of Endymion too. Who is Eumenides? Who is Semele? Josephine Waters Bennett couldn't figure that out. 4) Seems to me Puck is our authorial avatar in the play. Puck doesn't really fit EO to me. That said, a lot of this would be resolved if it turned out we were all overestimating the tensions/hostilities between EO and Leicester/Sidney.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 4 ай бұрын
Some interesting observations. I haven't quite worked out the the Leicester characters in the plays, possibly a grudging respect. I thought that he was Duke Senior in As You Like It, because of the description, but thought that he was too nice a character. Queen Elizabeth's fondness for Leicester might have influenced the authors treatment of him. I suspect that he was a charmer who for all his misdeeds was well liked. It is not a play written for Leicester it is a play written for the Queen. Oxford had a good relationship with Alencon, and the French I suspect that gentle ribbing was only tolerated because of his close relationship with them. He was an allowed fool (a puckish character). I don't know much about Endymion, but Lyly and Oxford had such a close working relationship their work often shows similarities. Think about the atmosphere at court, playing games, chatting, sparring, drinking and partying. There must have been comradery and tensions, not always friends, but not always enemies.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 4 ай бұрын
​@@ContextShakespeare1740I genuinely like this take. I think you are right to deflate perception of the supposed hostilities (which surely to some degree there was with EO and Dudley and/or Sidney.) I like the Duke Senior reading in AYLI as well. I definitely want to latch onto your readings because I want to sort of de-program this Ogburnian tendency to upsell the hostilities between the two circles, as well as the concomitant tendency to downplay Sidney (and his circle) as a poet(s). And you are right to say the Queen, not Dudley. Sloppy mistake on my part. But by extension it seems like we can say also Dudley. I only mention Alencon because it seems to me that this play is largely about showing the Queen getting past this infatuation and that Oberon (aka Dudley) is the one sort of teaching her this lesson through Puck's on-the-scene machinations and I can't help but allegorically link it to Sidney's Letter to the Queen in 79 in which he wrote the letter to the Queen darn near demanding she not marry Alencon--one can only guess at his uncle's behalf. We also have the 78/79 masque Lady of May written by Sidney for Dudley/Queen (which does read a little like LLL) in which Sidney allegorized the Queen and her 2 suitors, Dudley (the Forester) and Alencon (the Shepherd). The Queen was supposed to pick which one at play's end and she chose the Shepherd almost as a joke or a jab at Sidney/Dudley. MND just feels like a jab/joke back. As for Lyly's Endymion, check it out, there's a fair amount of parallels to MND in there. Stratfordians have never really been able to explain that fact and some have had the imagination to suggest Willy and his Dad travelled fifteen miles to watch the play. The first scholar to pitch an allegory for MND back in 1840s, Halpin, simultaneously pitched a linked allegory of MND. This kickstarted making politically allegorical readings in WS. Of which the logical conclusion became the SAQ and Oxfordian theory. Hence BM Ward was both an early Oxfordian and a Lyly scholar.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 4 ай бұрын
@@chancecolbert7249 I think my videos are liked by some and disliked by others, because I say things how I see them. I don't reel off the same old Oxfordian thinking, and genuinely if I felt that there was strong evidence for any other candidate I would report it. I have made a comparison with Lady of May and LLL in my next video. It was due to be out in August, it was almost ready, but then my Dad died on the 13th. The memorial service is this week. After things settle down to normality I will, I promise get it out there. Thank you for your continued interest and support. I love your intelligent comments.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 4 ай бұрын
Hey there Context! Getting around to your older videos. I know several of us are chomping at the bit for part 2 of LLL (But no rush!!!) Really really enjoying this one. Listening while driving so lack of video is not a bother/burden at all. I think MND is absolutely crucial to piecing our understanding of the 80s and 90s timeline of WS/connecting Lyly and WS. It seems to me to fit in with LLL/TGV/CoE as one of these 80s quasi-Euphuist plays where the line between Lyly and WS is blurred. YET, it also seems to fit in with the post sonnet explosion plays of the mid 90s where there's heavy amounts of verse and rhyming. I think R&J maybe fits in both categories as well. Similarly, I think the Tempest may be an early play and then reworked in late part of 1600's decade. But I will say there's a surprising amount of language overlap between MND and Tempest. Still not sure if that is early language in both or if that is the language of late revising hands. I lean towards the latter--which may suggest MND is worked over 3 tines at least.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 4 ай бұрын
I think that you a right that there are at least 3 reworkings of MND, or as I have suggested in my summary video, a bringing together of two or more smaller dramas to weave a longer story. The Tempest is difficult to put a date to. The pageant with the ship was possibly developed into a few different plays in the 1580's. I think that far too much emphasis is put on the colonial aspects of the Tempest in the light of later events. I think that the author was possibly dabbling with hallucinogens. An early Absinth is alluded to, the distilled spirit with wormwood!
@benc8834
@benc8834 6 ай бұрын
How interesting....i have mused on this possible scenario, Cervantes picking up stories while a miserable prisoner could hardly have contained himself if de Veres pompous challenge crossed his ears! The dates, the timing, the proximity of Algiers-Messina- Palermo, the personal connections with the Palermo viceroy Sessa, Don John etc all make it a deliciously inviting proposition........and all this time, the lovable Don Quixote turns out to be..... the bard himself!
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 6 ай бұрын
Hey Context!! Finally watched this one and WOW. Such excellent digging. But more inportantly very careful and cautious analysis. This is so so so so refreshing for me in contrast with some other SAQ content I've been tuning into. I've been diving into some essays on LLL to compliment this video and hope to bring up some questions and comments from that. Can't wait for Part 2!!!
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 6 ай бұрын
Thank you, I try to take a fresh approach and go where the evidence leads me. Part 2 is coming along nicely. If you have time read Gabriel Harvey's four letters. I think that Harvey says more than people have realised. I made a nice discovery yesterday linking letter 3 with LLL, I haven't found published elsewhere. I will be off on holiday tomorrow. last minute decision, so I hope that I can finish the content whilst away and record when I get back. I would love to discuss any questions you have.
@mayermargolis8990
@mayermargolis8990 6 ай бұрын
I have an Imac. In some parts of the video, my mouse stopped working and I had to switch to the trackpad.
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 7 ай бұрын
Congratulations on another superb video. There is so much to digest that it is impossible for me to comment on all of it except to say you have done a thorough job of setting the play in the context of the events of the 1570s and concerning the court of Navarre. I like that you ended the presentation with an open question to viewers asking who was best poised to know about all of these events. This engages viewers and makes them think a bit about what you have presented and encourages them to do their own research. I believe that is one of the best tactics to use in these videos since it gives them a sense that they are not just listening to a dry lecture (though yours could never be dry) but participating in examining a mystery worthy of their input. As usual, your lively narration makes for good listening. I cannot wait for part 2.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 7 ай бұрын
Thank you for your kind comments. I know from watching your presentations that you are aware of the amount of work that goes into making even 15 minutes of presentation. As for the open question, it reflects the end of the play ready for a continuation....
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 7 ай бұрын
@@ContextShakespeare1740 And continue you must.
@DavidRichardson-y3b
@DavidRichardson-y3b 7 ай бұрын
Wonderful effort to untangle this most complicatedly topical of the Shakespeare Plays. If one were to construct a network mapping of these people, I believe the man in the middle would be Philip Sidney, who appeared in your presentation as a potential husband for a sister of William of Orange, but is actually closely connected to all these players. He was close to Henry of Navarre and godfather to a child of de Mornay, Navarre's ambassador. He was finally knighted in 1584 so he could stand proxy for Casimir's induction as a Knight of the Garter. He was heir to Leicester who also figures prominently, as a potential husband to Mary (he demurred because he was already secretly married to Letice Knowles). When Leicester was out of favor after the Queen learned of the marriage it fell on Philip to become the leading advocate for intervention in the low countries and opponent to the marriage to Alencon, positions which damaged his promising political career. Other than his commentary in Defense of Poesy, Sidney does not appear to have had much interest in writing drama, though he is credited with writing or contributing to several masques for the court during this period. This is the time when he and Spenser were living together at Leicester House in London, surrounded by the Sidney Circle of writers which included Dyer, Harvey, Florio, Davies, Raleigh and others. Leicester was the sponsor of James Burbage's players at the Theater. It was also near the height of Philip's rivalry with Oxford, who had his own group of writers often viewed as rivals to the Sidney group including Lily who figures here. I don't really have a view on what this means for authorship, but it surely reveals something. I suspect you have seen Rima Greenhill's work on allusions in the play to the Muscovy Company and the marriage negotiations with Ivan the Terrible, which adds another dimension of court topicality to the festivities. My general sense is that Shakespeare does not do satire, but likes to pepper the works with caricatures of Court figures (sort of the Disney does Easter Eggs for adults to laugh at children's movies), but LLL may be the exception. I would love to hear how you think the play worked as drama before the court (and on the public stage) when you have completed your analysis Looking forward to part 2.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 7 ай бұрын
Thank you for your well informed comment. I will be looking more at the characters on this side of the channel in the next one. I have a feeling that the play was written in 1578 before the author knew about the marriage of Leicester and Lettice. I would love to see a connections map of the relationships, great idea. And yes I didn't have space for the Russians in this one, but they will be making an appearance in the next one, I will check on Rima's work.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 7 ай бұрын
Love's Labour's Lost - Jeremy Brett - TV - 1975 kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXqUpqyuhtGFias Harbage, A., “Love’s Labour’s Lost and the early Shakespeare”, Philological Quarterly, XLI, 1, January 1962 resources.warburg.sas.ac.uk/pdf/emh81b2457038.pdf Henri IV - The King of France (1589-1610) - The Good King kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2eXe6Sui75jfJo ///C:/Users/HP/Downloads/Shakespeare_and_the_French_Lens.pdf Giving and Receiving: "Love's Labour's Lost" and the Politics of Exchange MARK THORNTON BURNETT www.jstor.org/stable/43447446?seq=12 The satirical comedy, Love's labour's lost / a study by Eva Turner Clark babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005586832&seq=9 The Elizabethan Court Day by Day--1578 folgerpedia.folger.edu/mediawiki/media/images_pedia_folgerpedia_mw/archive/9/94/20170609165556!ECDbD_1578.pdf The Rise of the Dutch Republic, 1578 #31 in our series by John Lothrop Motley public-library.uk/pdfs/7/153.pdf
@ZorbaTon-zy1th
@ZorbaTon-zy1th 8 ай бұрын
Thanks Clare, hope you're well, this content is really fascinating and well researched. And then the audio presentation...is awful, too many jumps and cuts and repeats (as acknowledged by yourself). Couldn't you just take this down and rerecord the audio and then upload it again, whenever you have a spare half hour on a rainy day please. If not no probs, but this deserves to be so much better presented. As is, I can't forward this to any of my pals who have an interest in this topic. Thanks!
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 8 ай бұрын
I am glad that you enjoyed the content. The audio on the power point was perfect, but became a bit scrambled when converted to video. I cleaned up the computer before the release of Much Ado, and I think it was a lot better. I will be releasing Love's Labours Lost soon, if all goes well I will try and re-release this one. My introduction video might be a good one to forward to friends, in the meantime. Many thanks for your interest, and comment.
@ZorbaTon-zy1th
@ZorbaTon-zy1th 8 ай бұрын
Thanks Clare! Much appreciated your swift reply! You know what the really big mystery for me is, why the ongoing cover up 400 years later? It's pretty obvious to anybody who glances the matter with one auspicious and one dropping eye that all the highest ranking tifftoffkniffknoffs of England know all the whos that were involved and have most, or all, of the original manuscript evidence stashed away in their private libraries: as Walt W and Malcolm X twice upon a times both astutely alluded to. My feel is that something big has been damnatio memoriaed from Elizabethan and Jacobean history, and the tight circle of incestuous royal court insider tifftoffkniffknoff men and women of 16th and 17th century behind this corpus of works were also involved in some major historical event that has been wiped clean and of which we little pleblings of May should never discover... down through the centuries...to this very day and on to tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, to the last syllable of recorded time. Ok, maybe that's a bit over dramatic. Will modern English still even be around by then? More likely we'll have warred our planet to share the fate of Mars, or more hopefully, we'll all have been colonised by a peace enforcing alien race and we'll be speaking in tongues of theirs by then. In which case who'll need Shakespeare? Warmest wishes, Zorba Quinn Medicine Man
@MrAbzu
@MrAbzu 7 ай бұрын
@@ZorbaTon-zy1th The truth is known and denied. notable quotes. "Florio, who in 1591 added the nickname “Resolute” to his name, was determined to give his beloved new homeland - in those years still a culturally underdeveloped country - a supreme literary creation. He decided to become a working playwright with the aggressive nom de plume of “Shake-Speare,” where the “spear” that was being “shaken” was, of course, the pen." "That name happened to match, phonetically, the surname of a native Englishman from Stratford, a certain William Shakspere, or variously Shakspear or Shexpir, the son of a glover and himself an actor, later a landowner, theatrical impresario, and moneylender. Later on, the drama and poetry produced by Florio, the pseudonymous author who so often signed his work Shake-speare, was attributed to that insignificant and virtually unknown native Englishman.". "The entire construct is a cunningly devised deceit crafted out of words, a self-sustaining system that thrives on its own product. Still, in the end, entropy wins out; the wordplay cannot hold up. Even though Shakespeare is a nom de plume originally devised by the author himself - by John Florio - it was inevitably destined to collapse. Today, at last, we can state that the Authorship question was a grueling saga caused by a general unwillingness to admit an unacceptable identity: that Shakespeare was a foreigner." "As a writer, John Florio (the sole foreign Elizabethan) had a style that was remarkably Shakespearean - displayed in his works as a lexicographer and as the translator into English of two masterpieces of world literature, Montaigne’s Essais and Boccaccio’s Decameron. It is sufficient to read his work to see that the person we have come to recognize as William Shakespeare writes in the identical manner. They both display the same degree of pomposity, exaggerated use of metaphors, rhetorical figures and flourishes, and wit, puns, poetic style, and extensive use of proverbs." "To know Florio thoroughly, to study his work and life in depth, is tantamount to admitting that it was he who wrote the plays and poems that have been attributed to Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon." "John Florio - The Anglified Italian Who Invented William Shakespeare" From Lamberto Tassinari
@ZorbaTon-zy1th
@ZorbaTon-zy1th 7 ай бұрын
@@MrAbzu Evening Mr Abzu, hope you're well, Very interesting comment and I agree and feel John Florio fingerprints, especially given the comparative linguistic analysis and his and his Dad's track record of tutelage to royal ducklings. Up until just a few months ago, I was wholly unaware of this Florio chap and his obvious circumstantial resonance in time, place, education, literary style, and royal and Italian connections, with the Shakespeare issue, so big thanks to Marianna Iannaconne for enlightening me, whose KZbin channel is called John Florio, and was kindly gifted to me by the KZbin Aliens, and I mention Marianna on here on Context Shakespeare without any disrespect to this scholarly and fabulous KZbin channel by Clare right here. KZbin is very interesting, it seems to me that it makes interested people in whatever subject that much wiser and more efficient in our research by sending us links to that subject and then we can decide and discern for ourselves if they are excellent scholarly additions to our own research, such as Clare on here and Marianna over on hers, or on the other hand if they are a waste of time like many orthodox scholars, we learn it quicker watching them for a few minutes on KZbin and not have to waste time reading their crappy bs books trying to masquerade as honest scholarship. Remember the days when you had to go to the library and open the subject drawer and flick through cards one by one thinking of keywords and then note the book and spine number and head off the aisles looking for a book that was either already borrowed, or misplaced, or you would joyfully find it only to discover after wasting minutes of browsing through it that it was actually entirely irrelevant to your research. We thank Aliens for KZbin! Shame they seem to feed off our wars though. PS but I don't feel it was Florio alone. I also feel the fingerprints of aristo men eg Oxford - Hamlet for sure seems to correspond with Oxford's life especially Polonius as Cecil, the speech Pol gives Laertes matching what Cecil said to his own son who went to Paris and was only known by Cecil House of insiders such as Oxford, the Anne and Ophelia parallels, that 'as by Lot God wot' swiftly passing comment, blink and you'll miss it, from Hamlet to Polonius that Charles Beauclerk picked up on in his book, and even that graveyard scene with Hamlet and Laertes, reveals something that I feel happened in these aristos lives that they all know about, there's something really weird about that jumping into the grave and wrestling with each other and using the language they use. And something even weirder about Queen Gertrude making a lewd dick joke whilst describing Ophelia's sad end to Laertes. That's just so bizarre that it defies being thought up. It refers to something, some comment all those aristo men knew about and would get it. and then on the other hand in plays such as As You Like It, Othello, Taming of the Shrew, Romeo and Juliet, and Antony and Cleopatra and in the sonnets too, I feel the fingerprints of women, very powerful women, one of whom I'm inclined to believe was the Countess of Pembroke, Mary Sidney and her Wilton bunch...big thanks to Robin Williams' scholarship and her KZbin vids and her book. And my feel is there are others yet, still hidden away, mystery unknown to us plebs of May.
@MrAbzu
@MrAbzu 7 ай бұрын
@@ZorbaTon-zy1th True, but written books and articles also have their place. I cannot understand why John Florio: The Anglified Italian Who Invented Shakespeare by Lamberto Tassinari has not been published in English. I am glad for the excerpts which are available and can only hope that the book will follow soon. The gift of Florio was his ability to transform a hodge podge of plays written in a stage format into the literary style of an experienced and gifted writer. We know that a hundred writers may have had a hand in the plays to varying degrees but there is no real evidence beyond the "art imitates life" aspect of the plays. To me 1611 is the most important date because that is when the missing words arrived which were later found in the First Folio. The SAQ field has not progressed as it should because it is largely a "pick your favorite English dandy and look for supporting minutia" exercise. Who was the one name missing in Elizabeth Winkler's book of "would be Shakespeare's"? John Florio, and yes I read the book. What with England destroying itself with maladaptive foreigners, the idea of a foreign Shakespeare should fit right in.
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 9 ай бұрын
Thanks for another excellent video. Despite some of the glitches, I was able to follow the argument fairly easily. You might be interested to know that Sonnet 116 and 117 appear to be about de Vere's attempts to restore his wife Anne's virtue among the members of the Court. Sonnet 116, the famous one which begins "Let not the marriage of true minds/ Admit impediments..." seems to be de Vere's opening statement (he uses the word brief in line 11 as a clue). The final couplet is a fabulous "mic drop" pair of lines: "If this be error and upon me proved / I never wrote nor no man ever loved." Sonnet 117 is his appeal where he challenges his wife to prove he has not done her any wrong: "Accuse me thus..." is how the poem begins and it ends with: "Since my appeal says I did strive to prove / The constancy and virtue of thy love." Since we can date Much Ado About Nothing to around the time he was reconciled with Anne as you state, these two sonnets must date from the same period: around December 1581 or perhaps early in 1582. Once the sonnets can be mapped to de Vere's life (a project I am working on), the authorship issue will have been largely settled among thinking people. Until then it is an uphill battle for which your series of videos make impressive ammunition.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 9 ай бұрын
Thank you for your kind comments, I haven't really got in to the sonnets yet, still have quite a few plays to cover first. I really do think that there has been a shift in attitude in the last few years. It is not necessarily amongst the scholars, but the ordinary thinking people in the street. Very soon we will have the weight of public opinion on our side, the uphill battle will turn into a landslide.
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 9 ай бұрын
@@ContextShakespeare1740 You're welcome. As usual, your voice is pleasant to listen to. I am with you in that sometimes Italian names are difficult to pronounce: you have to get the "ac-CENT on the right Sil-LA-ble" as my late uncle used to say.
@vetstadiumastroturf5756
@vetstadiumastroturf5756 8 ай бұрын
Sonnet 116 contains this anagram: O no it is an ever fixed marke = I am Oxford Seventeen i ARK i ( "I ark I" is the ark of the covenant inside the temple. The ark contains the Torah, which is an "ever fixed marke") The final two lines could refer back to one of the anagram solutions for Never Before Imprinted. The primary solution is "Be In Print For M. E De Vere", but there are many secondary solutions. The final lines of Sonnet 116 seem to refer to one of the solutions. Never Before Imprinted = Proved: Men err, be finite 'If this be error and upon me proved" > Proved: Men err, be finite
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 8 ай бұрын
@@vetstadiumastroturf5756 Thanks for the comment. You seem to be good at anagrams, which I sadly am not. I hesitate to find anagrams in texts of the period, though I know they exist since so many researchers have discovered Baconian anagrams in the writing by Shakespeare which do not follow common rules. Some of them skip words or lines ijn order to create their "evidence" Bacon wrote the canon, but because they break those rules, I believe they might not exist and are products of over-active imaginations. If, however, anagrams seem to occur on single lines or in phrases as you have found, the chances they are intentional rises, especially if they make grammatical sense without leaving any letters out or if they do not require adding them to the solutions. My understanding of anagrams is that they must use every letter and not require adding letters..
@rooruffneck
@rooruffneck 9 ай бұрын
Great work!
@RockMackay
@RockMackay 9 ай бұрын
Great work. I very much enjoyed it. Edward De Vere was Shake-Speare , people need to get over it. Also, Looney was a genius for figuring it out & inventing "profiling"
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 9 ай бұрын
Sources The Arden Shakespeare Much do About Nothing www.ranker.com/list/everyday-life-of-a-venetian-courtesan/genevieve-carlton Richard Tarlton and the Earthquake of 1580 Campbell, Lily B. (1941). "Richard Tarlton and the Earthquake of 1580". Huntington Library Quarterly. 4 (3): 293-301. doi:10.2307/3815706. JSTOR 3815706. The Tudor Sumptuary Laws Wilfrid Hooper The English Historical Review, Vol. 30, No. 119 (Jul., 1915), Hercules Shaven: A Centering Mythic Metaphor in Much Ado About Nothing ANDREW B. CRICHTON Texas Studies in Literature and Language, Vol. 16, No. 4 (Winter 1975), pp. 619-626 (8 pages) shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/BC1-MuchAdos-Showerman.pdf
@apollocobain8363
@apollocobain8363 11 ай бұрын
I came back to Shakespeare and the context of the works while researching Henry Hudson ~1565-~1611. The proposed Bermuda / Sea Venture connection never made sense to me because the play is 1) not primarily about a similar wreck, 2) Prospero is clearly NOT analogous to an author (eg. "Shakespeare") and 3) the play makes the connections to Naples and Milan quite clear. The idea that the English would commemorate the wreck of the Sea Venture, an illegal (according to Spain / Holy Roman Empire) and ill-fated mission to resupply the struggling, semi-secret Jamestown foothold, is an example of how bad scholarship on such issues related to Shakespeare works has been. Since 1769 the subject has been plagued by those who work backward from the conclusion that the play is the last-written and was written in 1611 and then make everything fit that unsupported assumption. I am more persuaded that "Prospero" and the general impetus for the play, which seems to rework "The Spanish Maze", has to do with rehabilitating the reputation of Dr John Dee and with making use of trendy stage effects. Others have argued that plays in 1604/1605 lampooned scenes in from the Tempest putting the composition date in the 1598 to 1603 range. shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/wp-content/uploads/Oxfordian2007_Strit-Kos-Maze.compressed.pdf
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 11 ай бұрын
Thank you for an insightful comment. In my series of videos I always try and work from the beginning. What is being said about current events. For more on mazes and stage effects and the timing of the plays please see my most recent video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJiUd2CFbZ1oqKc
@martincarden
@martincarden 11 ай бұрын
Very interesting and nicely done - thankyou. Assumes of course that Elizabeth WAS de Vere's daughter (he doubted it for some time) and that nowhere in the chain was there any 'infidelity' - but that issue applies also for William's rights as heir to the British throne.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 11 ай бұрын
Yes I took the same view, it is the official hereditary which is important here, not the genetic one. I thought that the Oxford march worked perfectly for this
@martincarden
@martincarden 11 ай бұрын
I was amazed to see that the very last piece played at Charles III's coronation (according to the commemorative album on Spotify) was the earl of oxford's march - so you are in good company@@ContextShakespeare1740
@Alacrates
@Alacrates Жыл бұрын
Despite the all the technical difficulties, I thought this video raised a wealth of interesting points, I'm definitely going to listen to it again I've listened to all the presentations you've released so far, they've included a wealth of interesting details... thanks for all the work you've put in so far, I'll be re-listening to everything you've released, and looking forward to all your future presentations... Keep up the great work!
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 Жыл бұрын
Thank you, by taking an in depth view of the context, it leads to some insight about the process.
@ronroffel1462
@ronroffel1462 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for doing a summary of your previous work. It helps give me an idea of what you are doing. Your voice is perfect for these videos as it is smooth and you pronounce your words clearly. I will watch your earlier videos and give feedback where I can. Keep up the great work in getting the truth out.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 Жыл бұрын
Thanks Ron that's so kind.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 Жыл бұрын
I am sorry that I have had a few technical difficulties with this video. There are a few jumps and repeats in the audio. I did try and solve these problems hopefully I can get a solution by next time. Here are the links: www.academia.edu/68582429/Introduction_to_the_Anonymous_Comedy_Laelia_1595_http_www_philological_bham_ac_laelia The OXFORDIAN Volume 23 2021by Katherine Chiljan shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/wpcontent/uploads/TOX23_Chiljan_Prospero_Visconti.pdf www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17450918.2020.1800808#:~:text=In%20the%20first%20place%2C%20the,2.5.104%E2%80%935) shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/SM7.1.pdf quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A01066.0001.001/1:4?rgn=div1;view=fulltext www.jstor.org/stable/4174078?read-now=1&seq=12#page_scan_tab_contents shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/SOSNL_1999_3.pdf
@CulinarySpy
@CulinarySpy Жыл бұрын
The only fly in this ointment is the possibility that Anne's first daughter, Elizabeth de Vere, was not Edward's and was perhaps the result of infidelity or rape (as in Rape of Lucrece).
@apollocobain8363
@apollocobain8363 Жыл бұрын
While sonnets and other poetry, in general, are written by single persons plays and other theatrical works tend to be written and rewritten by teams of people. Henslowe's diary shows us how these teams worked, how they were paid and what the business side of Elizabethan theater looked like. The Stratford position is steadily crumbling and they now admit that at least some of the works were "collaboration". They are however using that term as if there is a physical person from Stratford sitting next to John Fletcher. This avoids something unthinkable to their position which is that Fletcher rewrote 'Henry VIII' and 'Two Noble Kinsmen' without approval from their mythologized figure. I came to the SAQ from adjacent research on Henry Hudson which led me to debates about "The Tempest." I found quickly that the Stratfordian assertions about that play and its alleged sources (including the 1609 wreck in Bermuda of a Jamestown-bound ship called "Sea Venture") did not hold up any better than the idea that the title of the play 'Hamlet' refers to the 1596 death of Straford's 11 year-old son Hamnet. Nothing is known about Henry Hudson outside of 4 of his voyages -- not his birth date, death date, training, parentage, etc. I had to research the context of Hudson to find out more about him and the decisions he made. This prepared me well for a look into the SAQ which has similar issues. The SAQ also involves many of the same patrons and publishers such as Haklyut. In 1578 deVere borrowed 3,000 pounds to back a mission by Martin Frobischer to bring back, from northern Canada, tons of what they assumed was gold in an unrefined form. After much time and expense it was determined to be mostly iron pyrite (aka 'fool's gold'). This episode fit well with 'Merchant of Venice' and the borrowing of 3,000 ducats, "all that glitters is not gold" etc. However I do not think the answer to the SAQ is single-author. The Stratford myth has damaged our understanding of that era and the nature of creative genius by working backward from the (to some) unquestionable assertion that a single person wrote, alone, all of the plays in the 1623 publication. The truth seems to be that, just like the works best documented by Henslowe, great stories are handed down, adopted and adapted to fit the current context and then live on to be reworked again and again. Eg. 'The Lion King' is 'Hamlet' but Hamlet echoes the Roman story of Brutus + the anonymous Scandinavian Saga of Hrolf Kraki and other sources. (It certainly has nothing to do with the untimely death of a young son whom Stratford had mostly abandoned years earlier when he moved 160km to London, a journey of 4 or 5 days at the time.) Stratford IS part of the group running the Burbage theater(s) and Ben Jonson seems to malign him when he write the bit character Sogliardo, as a general mockery of socially ambitious fools. Sogliardo is a country bumpkin, new to the city, who boasts of the coat of arms he has recently purchased.
@rooruffneck
@rooruffneck Жыл бұрын
Great work!
@DrWrapperband
@DrWrapperband Жыл бұрын
Very True! Oe Indeed dddd
@vetstadiumastroturf5756
@vetstadiumastroturf5756 Жыл бұрын
Act 5 scene 1 contains one of two appearance of a character named William. Here William is an uneducated country boy who thinks himself a rival to Touchstone for the hand of Audrey. TOUCHSTONE Give me your hand. Art thou learned? WILLIAM No, sir. TOUCHSTONE Then learn this of me: TO HAVE IS TO HAVE. For it is a figure in rhetoric that drink, being poured out of a cup into a glass, by filling the one doth empty the other. For all your writers do consent that ipse is “he.” Now, you are not ipse, for I am he. "to have is to have" in Shakespeare's beloved Italian is "avere e avere" which is a pun on the family motto of the Vere family. Touchstone (Shakespeare) is telling William that no matter who gets credit, it is "a vere" who really deserves it.
@sheilareynolds1731
@sheilareynolds1731 Жыл бұрын
These videos are brilliant!! Keep them coming!! I have immersed myself in the De Vere/Shakespeare authorship debate, and the Bard’s works, these last few years and yet I ALWAYS learn new things. Plural. I know that takes exhaustive research. I’m grateful for your time and detail.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for such a lovely encouraging comment. It does take an awful lot of research and thinking time. I am wondering which play to tackle next. If you have any suggestions or a favourite please let me know.
@DrWrapperband
@DrWrapperband Жыл бұрын
Marlowe AKA Shake-speare AKA E de Vere, "Dead shepherd, now I find thy saw of might: Who E. Vere loved that loved not at first sight?"
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 Жыл бұрын
Spike Millican kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipyycoieqZh6a9E kzbin.info/www/bejne/pYaaZJ6gariqb68 Hank Wittemore 100 reasons hankwhittemore.com/?s=as+you+like+it&submit=Search As You Like It: Is Touchstone vs. William the First Authorship Story? shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/as-you-like-it-first-authorship-story/ The Arte of English Poesie www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/16420/pg16420.txt Dating Shakespeare’s Plays deveresociety.co.uk/edward-de-vere-as-shakespeare/dating-shakespeares-plays/ Green’s Groatsworth of Witt shakespearedocumented.folger.edu/resource/document/greenes-groats-worth-witte-first-printed-allusion-shakespeare-playwright Leicester’s Commonwealth www.dpeck.info/write/leic-comm1.htm#intro The Real Martin Marprelate www.jstor.org/stable/459034?read-now=1#page_scan_tab_contents The Rhetoric of Reaction: The Martin Marprelate Tracts (1588-89), Anti- Martinism, and the Uses of Print in Early Modern England www.jstor.org/stable/2542987?read-now=1&seq=19#page_scan_tab_contents Review of Elizabeth Appleton’s AN ANATOMY OF THE MARPRELATE CONTROVERSY shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/review-of-appletons-marprelate-controversy/ Oxford’s friend, Arthur Throckmorton:, a personal link with William Shakspere of Stratford deveresociety.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/NL-2015april-pp22-30.pdf Oxford’s Land Sales, Castle Hedingham and the Sheepcote in As You Like It deveresociety.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/JC-2015Oct-CastleHedingham.pdf Contemporary Proof that the Poet Earl of Oxford’s Literary Nickname was “Gentle Master William” shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/oxfords-literary-nickname-was-gentle-master-william/ EDWARD DE VERE, EUPHUISM AND BI-SEXUALITY deveresociety.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/NL_2020_27_2_April_FINAL_05Apr2020-CG.pdf The Dedication to Strange News (1592) shakespeareoxfordfellowship.org/dedication-to-strange-news/
@yvonnecheal1805
@yvonnecheal1805 Жыл бұрын
Great gathering of references and research.
@meghanandrockmackay5804
@meghanandrockmackay5804 Жыл бұрын
wonderful. thanks so much for your work.
@Alacrates
@Alacrates Жыл бұрын
Great stuff! I'm interested in hearing about really any of the plays or poems. If I was going to make a request I might say As You Like It or Love's Labour's Lost, those are two that have a lot of mystery to me and that I'm puzzling over.
@ContextShakespeare1740
@ContextShakespeare1740 Жыл бұрын
As You Like It sounds like a great suggestion, I will have a look at it.
@milzner641
@milzner641 Жыл бұрын
Excellent. I enjoyed this very much.
@twothecat
@twothecat Жыл бұрын
This is simply fascinating. That word Bermoothes now makes so much more sense contextually.
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
"Edward De Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford, possessed...the poetical skills..." You can't be serious. On his best day he wasn't half as good as Shakespeare on his worst.
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
Argument by pejorative won't go over very with with the magistrates of Grey's Inn. The debate here is "Who was Shakespeare?" The power of that writer's poetry is not being debated, but the authorship is. So when you say "he wasn't half as good..." you are missing the entire point of identification by means of the evidence telegraphed in The Comedy of Errors. It falls to you to explain how your man came upon the erudition and the provenance being exposed in this debate. You can't win by disparagement. It simply makes you look to be predisposed to a conclusion now being scrutinized by a scholar.
@rooruffneck
@rooruffneck Жыл бұрын
This also goes for most geniuses when I compare them to their youthful efforts. Not all!
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
@@rooruffneck We listen to Mozart's mature operas over and over in preference to listening to the earlier ones even once.
@rooruffneck
@rooruffneck Жыл бұрын
@@tomditto3972 Bob Dylan, Kendrick Lamar, Elvis Costello... all had a two-three year period where they went from being somewhat talented youngsters to suddenly doing some very special things. It is a short window of creative development when a person can suddenly move out of the "this certainly isn't a great genius" box.
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
@@tomditto3972 The standard Oxfordian response is to claim De Vere's extant works as childish endeavors, as Roo does. Even you lot recognize how inferior his poetry is to Shakespeare's.
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
Emilia was more likely to have been named for Emilia Lanier, who was mistress to Shakespeare's patron, Baron Hunsdon.
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
Why is it that Stratfaudians will grasp at any straw no matter how slender to point at a biographical detail that might underwrite their hypothesis while overlooking the preponderance of evidence brought to bear here on the origins of The Comedy of Errors that supports the Oxford theory? The double standard has led to conflating Hamnet with Hamlet, a ridiculous correlation that turns the natural death of a son into the murder of a father. Just saying...
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
​@@tomditto3972Which Hamlet are you reading? In the one most of us have seen, Hamlet kills his father's murderer as a directed act of revenge. But you think he was De Vere, who killed Polonius/Cecil on stage, and suffered no ill will from Cecil's very powerful son. Shakespeare knowing an Emilia -- indeed she was someone he would have had a vested interest in flattering -- is "grasping at straws", while some historical rando with a similar name is not. Aren't you the guys who insist De Vere had an inside track on the Danish Royal Court in Peregrine Bertie, even though they hated one another? Oh, and he just happened to have a cousin named Horace (aka Horatio), with whom he had no known relationship. But a SON and best friend whose names were often spelled Hamlet in Stratford, that's a stretch!
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
@@Jeffhowardmeade There are Context Shakespeare topics here, and if we wait for Hamlet to be dissected as Errors has been, the contexts of the play and the men will come to a better focus than in your comment. My point is not that Hamnet is an unrelated string of letters, although the spelling does differ from the play. My point is that if anything can be found biographically in support of William, Stratfordians will embrace it wholeheartedly while dismissing biographical evidence for Oxford as irrelevant to early modern English drama. You have pursued this dismissal from the earliest of our conversations, informing me that I was ignorant of conventions in Elizabethan literature. Writers like your candidate were in-it-for-the-money. Their stories were made up to sell tickets and fill seats. The play Hamlet was a commercial triumph dreamed up by a writer who drew from his imagination far more than his own life, and my descriptions of the connections between de Vere and Hamlet were in defiance of historic fundamentals in literature. Yet I've learned since then that anything that seems to connect William to anything that was published as by Shakespeare is going to be exhumed and given life. You can't have it both ways. I told you from the start that if a biographical perspective will hone a performance, then drawing on it will aid production. The conflict between Oxford and the Cecils are one way to allow the audience to feel as Oxford felt, that is, William Cecil in the guise of Polonius had it coming. The performance by that actor must take the audience to a place where the killing is in keeping with what they would want. They must feel that the rash intruding fool shred the relationship between Hamlet and Ophelia. When he dies, he had to go. What I learned from Oxford's life inspires the staging of the play. As I have said again and again, "Even if I'm wrong [Polonius = Cecil] I'm right."
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
@@tomditto3972 You fundamentally misunderstand my point. You try to connect the works of Shakespeare to the biography of De Vere and I point out that there are far BETTER connections between Shakespeare and his works, just to show you how pointless your biographical parallels are. Facts are established by evidence, not vague biographical parallels which only work when you make up the biography.
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
@@Jeffhowardmeade Thank you for capitalizing BETTER. That certainly serves to establish that your argument is evidence-based. Let's let the temper subside long enough to return to lower case, perhaps long enough for our hostess to summarize her findings on the context. She includes biographies.
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
Davies wrote "Had'st thou NOT plaid some Kingly parts in sport, thou hadst bin a companion for a King;" (emphasis mine). Davies is emphatically saying that Shakespeare (here identified as a poet, as a gentleman, AND as an actor) is NOT a courtier.
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
No, the line means that even if Oxford had not been at the tilt (where he excelled in front of ER), nonetheless his demeanor would have fit in her court.
@rooruffneck
@rooruffneck Жыл бұрын
@@tomditto3972 Why can't this be read as suggesting that it was because of the inherent tensions generated by his plays that he never was able to fully be embraced by QE?
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
@@rooruffneck Understood, but the ambiguity is not erased simply by forcing your interpretation. The expression "in sport" is taken in my interpretation to point to Oxford who played a kingly part in sport, allowing the view that even if he had not, he would have been a companion to a king.
@rooruffneck
@rooruffneck Жыл бұрын
@@tomditto3972 Absolutely. I'm not about forcing any of these interpretations, just enjoying how they each can lift out different possible facets of the truth. Thanks for the response.
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
@@rooruffneck OK. I took your comment to interpret the line to mean Shakespeare was NOT a courtier. As it happens, he was which is why the canon is so completely skewed in the direction of the aristocracy and the monarchy.
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
"...I am apt to believe, that his Skill in the French and Italian Tongues, exceeded his Knowledge in the Roman Language." What contradiction? "Extraordinary learning" would refer to the classics, not to contemporary languages.
@tomditto3972
@tomditto3972 Жыл бұрын
Please elaborate on how your illiterate businessman picked up French from Huguenot tenants sharing a London boarding house. As you would have it, as I recall, their cohabitation led to William reaching sufficient literacy to roll de Belleforest's Histoires Amleth into Hamlet. Do I have that correctly recalled? On the other hand, a 13 year old Edward de Vere was writing in perfect court French to his then guardian and later father-in-law William Cecil whose library was as much in Latin, Greek, Italian and French as it was in English. Which of these two would have digested the five volume set of de Belleforest?
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
​@@tomditto3972Actually, Belleforest called him Hamlet, as did Kyd, who wrote an earlier version. There's no way of knowing what Shakespeare took from Kyd, or if he went straight to Belleforest. Since we know that one could learn French in Stratford -- Richard Field did it -- that means Shakespeare could have. And if you insist on libeling him as an illiterate, I will be forced to remind you that De Vere was a pederast who liked choir boys, which is based on documentary evidence, not an amateur's impression of handwriting.
@DrWrapperband
@DrWrapperband Жыл бұрын
@@Jeffhowardmeade Making stuff up, De Vere liked one choir boy, probably for his singing, as he could have easily sodomised his pages, like Anthony Bacon, if he wanted sex with boys.
@chancecolbert7249
@chancecolbert7249 2 ай бұрын
Hey Jeff. Hope all is well. Still digging into Hand D and Melchiori and Merriam et al. I too have come to feel your anguish in this SAQ scene. It is utterly wanting. I'm still a doubter and still on the hunt myself. Philip Sidney has produced nothing but connections and insight in my hunt, but I don't have that worked out too thoroughly at the moment. What I do want to bring up is that I think I've found several ways to legitimately attack/reassess the Hand D attribution. I still think John Webster is the right name and I think Webster is alllll over WS, especially late WS. I think this explains the Middleton present in the canon too. I think the proof in the pudding is unwittingly presented by Hoy in his Beaumont&Fletcher monograph where he shows late Jacobean playwright linguistic markers. WS and Webster are nearly identical. I don't think scholars have really ever had to separate/define the two comparatively for any attribution questions hitherto Chillington. This is why Webster's vocabulary is neatly nested in WS's vocabulary sans a few words. I think Gary Taylor and Thomas Merriam have also unwittingly led us down this same road as Hoy. Taylor keeps finding more and more Middleton and Merriam keeps finding that the late plays match Hand D. To my bemusement, Merriam also calls into question the additions of Hemmings and Condell in the folio citing affinities to Jonson. Meanwhile Freebury-Jones/Vickers and Jackson's back and forth over Arden has me rather sure that we are all still pretty clueless about the early 90s in general. Basically I think Chillington is still right and we are missing a big big picture here. In other words: apply Hoy's linguistic analysis to WS in earnest and you will get a massive disintegration. To the point that we will have to redefine WS. It may take me several more months to get this out but I just wanted you to know I have jumped headlong into cutting edge attribution studies over the past year. I think you'll finally be "challenged" once I get this video presentation together.
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade 2 ай бұрын
@@chancecolbert7249 Always love a good challenge! Sadly, it’ll have to wait. I’m elbows-deep in a remodel of my house so I can sell it and move out of the rich man’s state I’m presently living in. Hard to believe I can buy a veritable mansion in the East for the cost of a tiny post-war cottage in California. It seems fundamentally wrong. Just a thought, but if you’re able and willing to do a textual analysis of Webster vs William, have you ever considered treating it as actual scholarship, and not a windmill to tilt at? There might be some wonderful discoveries to be made if you’re not single-mindedly trying to take down Shakespeare.
@Jeffhowardmeade
@Jeffhowardmeade Жыл бұрын
Most metal type used in England was cast on the Continent, in countries which didn't have a W in their language. Nearly EVERY book printed in English throughout the 16th and well into the 17th Century used two Vs to make a W.