@@djryan8944 a body die won’t size the neck itself, only the body. So the mandrel wouldn’t do anything after that without the neck being sized back down to under bullet diameter. The full length sizing die without its expander ball/button is the easiest way to achieve this type of sizing I’m talking about in the video, but you could do it with other methods like a Redding type S die without expander, a Forster bump die, or even a Lee collet neck die, although with that one the neck is sized down but the body of the case isn’t touched.

@ Thanks. I have a Redding bushing neck set with body die. Thinking maybe I body, neck, then mandrel?

@@djryan8944 yes, that would work. I have a few die sets of the style you have. It’ll work just fine in that order, and doing the mandrel as the last step, it’s just an extra step overall, which isn’t a big deal for most people. If you’re doing a bunch of rounds at a time, especially on a single stage, it can be a bit more time consuming, but that’s it.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing thanks!

As designed, no they are not tapered. The mandrel in the collect die is intended to only be a forming mandrel. The mandrel enters the expanded case neck of the fired case, and then the collet squeezes the neck around and forms it to the mandrel. So unless you’re using a Lee collet neck sizer for an application other than intended, it doesn’t require any gradual taper. If you were using it to final size, or neck up, yes you’d want that gradual taper.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing think you misunderstood me ; I just taper the very end of the mandrel just after the decap pin so when the case enters the die it's not hitting the mandrel end even if the case is fired formed. Sometimes when I was entering the die with the case the mouth of the neck would smack into the end of the mandrel and the case would dent. Also sometimes say 2 out of hundred cases did not get the proper neck tension and when I load the case the bullet won't hold due to lack of neck tension so I bought another Lee Collet Die and drumalled off the decap pin and again tapered the end of the mandrel so now I just have to remove the bullet which usually just falls out and all powder then resize the neck without removing the primer. Then I just reload the powder and bullet. It's nice and clean and fast. This is what you put up with with a single stage press and loading 2 - 300 cases at a time. :)

@@hawkeyeammosmithing I looked at your video again and the Lee Dies I bought were not as tapered as well as your ; maybe this is why you don't hit the mandrel with your fire formed cases. Very strange ?

Only their collet nick sizing dies have a mandrel. Their FL sizing dies absolutely use an expander ball.

What are the three you counted?

@@hawkeyeammosmithing 1) decapping die 2) sizing die 3) mandrel die

@@DLN-ix6vf decapping isn’t sizing, so I didn’t include that as a step. I’ve always decapped with a universal decapping die before cleaning the brass, and I always clean my brass before sizing. So to me, it’s not part of the sizing process. I can see how some might see it as one though, so sure, it’s three steps in that situation. It’s still worth it. Brownells can’t even keep their mandrels bodies in stock anymore, that’s how popular this method has become, and for good reason.

It’s worked great. I need to do an updated video sometime lol

@@hawkeyeammosmithing Would you please do I am looking for AMP MATE I cannot seem to find one

@@Soulman6969 they release them in batches and they typically sell out same day. So you have to watch close. You can also email them and they should tell you when the next batch will be available.

Thanks mine is on the way. If I have questions may I reach out

Doing it that way is definitely an option. I’d still recommend a bushing die that full length sizes just to get that reliability, and if you’re going to use a mandrel after, I recommend using a bushing that’ll leave the inside diameter of the neck .004” under caliber size. That way the mandrel can overcome the strain rate of the metal, and spring back, and leave the neck at the desired final size. If you used a bushing of the same size you’d want the final neck size, the mandrel wouldn’t be doing anything because the strain rate of the metal and spring back wouldn’t be over one and it would just end up the same as if you only used the bushing. Hopefully that makes sense.

Thanks, but I guess I don’t know who this is lol

She bled behind her hide, and it coagulated. It looks worse than it is but she’s far from destroyed. Her vital organs, on the other hand, were definitely destroyed.

It’s an Annie induction annealer, made by Fluxeon.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing compared to Annealeez how would you rsre it?

@@yojimbo05 I had an Anealeez prior to it, and it’s miles better. Induction is the way to go for ease and repeatability/consistency.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing gotcha reason being i new to the insuction means. I have annealed before but used Lee Case Turner over a low flame jsut around the neck and not the web of the case. I am kinda old school lol. Couldn't see a huge difference insemi auto but i know it is moat seen in bolt action throughtout stretchung if the case for fire forming.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing i wasn't for sure hkm much these machine cost either. I didn't know hwom you recommended for insuction machine or would Annealeez work just fine.

Haha, yeah that was a mistake I fixed already. I just didn’t want to re-record that whole thing at the time lol. I now have a much better camera that doesn’t have this issue anyways, good video editing software, etc, etc, but just no time to make videos anymore. I plan on eventually redoing the ones I’ve made and then finishing what I originally planned. So it’ll be much better eventually lol

Also, this particular video was actually made for one person at the time. So I was talking to him in the video lol. I just later decided to post it here.

This was super helpful in deciding which way to go on neck sizing vs. Full length and the options there in! Appreciate it!

Yeah that stuff does work pretty well. If I dry tumble right after sizing, even with regular lanolin, it polishes right off and it’s already dry afterwards and I don’t have to mess with drying the brass again before moving on to the next step. We all have our preferred methods and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I doubt that would work. If the collet inside is overcompressed, it does not open back up and will crush the necks and shoulders of any brass you try to run through it afterward. That is why the instructions tell you not to cycle your press without a brass, when the die is in it. If you do compress the collet, you can take it out of the die and open it back up by prying it with something like a screwdriver. I learned all of this the hard way and ruined some expensive brass trying to figure out what was going on.

In this scenario, I’m referring to fired brass

@@hawkeyeammosmithing thanks for the reply I’m new to reloading and it’s called and expander mandrel so after firing the brass is now over sized and just was not sure how this would add the neck tension back to the case

@@poyo503 well, by “oversize” I mean sized more than needed (over). So if you size it first with a full length sizing die, without the expander installed, it’ll squeeze the neck down, but since there’s no expander, it won’t open the neck back up as you remove the case from the die. If you left it like that, the neck tension would be way too high. So the mandrel takes place of the expander, in a second step. This isn’t something that’s required, but it does a much better job of keeping everything really consistent. If you’re new to reloading and you’re not worried about getting top precision just yet out of your ammo, you can just use a full length sizing die with the expander and be fine. This is more of a “taking it to the next level” step, but anyone could do it too, with any level of experience.

@@poyo503 I have another video (episode 5A) that explains mandrel sizing a bit more.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing thank you so much I was legit confused on how that process worked 👍🏽

Lee makes undersized mandrels for their collet neck sizers, yes, but not mandrels disinfect for expanding necks like this.

Yes. The “pin” is just the part that punches the spent primer out and then opens the neck back up after sizing the rest of the case (including the shoulder). All it does sizes is the neck. Without it, you’re still sizing the entire case, including the neck. The neck is left undersized. So then what I do, as mentioned in the video, I’d us a mandrel setup to open the necks back up rather than with the expander installed in the sizing die. Does that make sense?

My personal preference has always been to use a universal decapping die to punch out the spent primer, and then I clean the brass after that. I don’t like running dirty brass in my sizing dies, for a few reasons. I use a universal decapping die because it won’t touch the cases and only punches out the primer. I also do that step before cleaning the cases because it’ll allow the primer pockets to be cleaned too during that process. So then when I’m ready to start sizing, I’ve got clean brass and no spent primers to worry about. That’s the process of recommend to anyone.

Yes, and yes. Their mandrel body and mandrels are both interchangeable with Sinclair mandrels and mandrel body. They work great and are high quality.

Full length sizing dies with expanders get the job done in most cases. A mandrel just does an overall better job, and tends to provide more consistent results and without potential runout issues as well. It would be for those that are trying to squeeze out top consistency and precision. It’s obviously not completely necessary or else there wouldn’t be the expander setup.

Sure do. This was originally made in one shot real quick just to send to someone to explain what it is and the idea. I just later decided to throw it up on KZbin. Sorry it’s not KZbin quality. It’s wasn’t intended to be. I have other videos in the proper orientation, including another in this subject.

Yes, you’re absolutely right. I made this video quite a while ago now and originally it was made for one person to better explain to him what I was talking about when trying to teach him about mandrel use. I decided after that to upload it to my channel invade it could maybe be helpful to others. I think it has been now with about 10k views. My current method is like you do. I use a FL sizing die with a bushing to bump my shoulders and with the applicable sized bushing to size down my necks just enough for the mandrel, in a second step, to open the necks back up and set the final size and ensure the inside diameter is uniform and ironed out. A regular FL sizing die without the expander will indeed work, but yes, it tends to overwork the necks compared to if you use a bushing of just the right size. Obviously using a FL sizer as it was intended works the brass just the same, so if you weren’t worried about that before, and only wanted the added consistency of using a mandrel versus an expander, you’ll still see improvements and not be working your brass any more than before. In fact, with the mandrel being a smother operation, it’ll still be easier on the brass than before. For simplicity, my go-to sizing dies to use in conjunction with a mandrel setup is either a Redding Type S FL sizer (with the expander removed), and the applicable bushing, or a Forster Bump Sizing bushing die. Those size the neck and bump the shoulders, but leave the case body blown out to your chamber. It gives you the benefits of what guys are after when only neck sizer by, but the added consistency and reliability of bumping your shoulders each time. You can swap out the bushing for a size that only sizes the neck as much as necessary too. Also, I no longer use the K&M mandrel setup I show in this video. I’m using the TiN coated Sinclair mandrel with their mandrel body now.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing Thanks for your detailed response. It took 2 years for me to figure it out. I also use the Redding dies, Sinclair mandrel, and Ballistic Tools case/mouth tension gauge with good results.

@@ralphbuoncristiani2941 yeah, those tools are great. I really like their primer pockets go/no-go gages (swage gage) as well. I use them all the time.

I’ve used that exact combination a lot. It works well and it definitely way better than using an expander and traditional FL sizing die setup. I still just can’t let my mind not constantly think the collets aren’t producing and absolute uniform size of the neck though, so that why I went to a mandrel setup like this. I do use different mandrels than these K&M ones now though.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing I don't think any method is perfect. Too many variables in tooling, metallurgy in the brass and on and on. I do know that expander balls induce alot of runout in the case necks. If a loader is concerned about runout in the finished round then a body die along with the lee collet die will solve alot of those issues. Even that is not 100% but I doubt any method is. With reloading there are many many rabbit holes one can go down.

@@terryhenry8243 I can tell you that I’ve texted multiple brass, multiple cartridges, etc, with running a sizing die without expander in my Forster Co-Ax, running that brass on my concentricity gauge to see there’s zero runout, then running all the brass through a Sinclair mandrel and checking them again with the concentricity gauge and they’re still at zero runout. It does work, and work well. I know it’s about as good as you can get on uniformity too.

You’re right about the multitude of variables and rabbit holes though with reloading.

Yes, I know. I wasn’t clear in the video, but I meant that if you’re turning brass you’ve already been using and it’s developed a donut, the cutting pilot will help remove any of it on the inside diameter. Obviously if you’re turning the necks on virgin brass you won’t have a donut.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing so you turn old/fired brass?

@@ramsaycountry1177 I’ve turned lots of squired fired brass, yes. I turn a lot of Lake City brass. As an ammosmith, I do lots of odds and ends things for customers. There’s definitely a handful of things I do for some that I wouldn’t do or don’t do for my own personal ammo

@@hawkeyeammosmithing to each his own I guess

He’s not the only one, but he’s surely helped convince a lot of people lol.

He convinced me

Yes, you can definitely do that, but you’ll typically induce more runout on the case necks that way than if you used a purpose made mandrel setup.

@@hawkeyeammosmithing It would be interesting to see if and how much. I actually ordered a mandrel die and mandrel last week so as to lesson the neck tension from what the sizing button offer in a number of chamberings.

@@rvrski1 I’ve had and used about every sizing die and type of sizing. There are definitely some dies and some methods that are better than others. In all my experimenting and experience, I concluded a good mandrel setup is the superior method, even if it’s only a negligible improvement. I currently use Sinclair’s mandrel setup with their TiN coated mandrels. The mandrel body is a one time purchase and each mandrel is $20. I just buy a quality sizing die for whatever cartridge and the applicable mandrel for that caliber if I don’t already have it, and I’m set. It’s actually cheaper altogether too. I don’t have to buy a different size bushing if the brass I’m using changes in thickness. Also, the other issue I found with bushings is that they size the brass on the outside rather than inside. So the side of the neck that gets ironed out is the outside. If there’s any inconsistency in the neck thickness, that’ll get pushed to the inside and end up producing an inconsistent tension and uniform grip on the bullet. That will result in an inconsistent release of the bullet when fired. A mandrel irons out the inside of the neck and will leave a much more uniform surface to contact the bullet. Could this be splitting hairs? Sure. Am I a guy that’s a bit OCD and likes to know everything is as good as it can get? Yes. Am I pushing a method? A little, but I’m not going to say you have to do it this way or I’m going to think less of you lol. I’m just trying to share my experience and recommendations. I also prep brass for my business and want to provide the customer with the absolute best I can. No one is sending me free tools and equipment, so I’m not biased. I’m seriously only after what has proven to work best time and time again. The industry is actively moving towards mandrels and if you can get the top competition shooters to share their methods, you’ll see more and more are going to mandrels. All the top die manufacturers are making mandrel setups now too so they can get a piece of the pie.

I had to go back and watch it to see what you meant. I guess I wasn’t very clear, but when I was showing one of the mandrels I use in that die, it was a 30cal mandrel. That’s not the mandrel I was using to size the 25cal brass, just another mandrel like it that I was showing as an example. Also, this video is pretty old now. I have switched to using a Sinclair mandrel setup with their TiN coated mandrels. I’ve had lots of changes to my bench and processes since this video and I guess I need yo make an updated version of this lol. Maybe I’ll wait until I get an AMP annealer and then it shouldn’t need any updates for quite a while after that lol.

LE Wilson does, yes. Lots of places nowadays make good mandrels though. The word is out and the demand is up.

How are you measuring your shoulder bump?