Thanks for spoiling people even if they don't click on your video dumbass. I wish you very bad things for the end of this years.

Wow. Your way with words is amazing and I think you explained this perfectly.

What a video! I finished Rebirth a few hours ago and, besides experiencing the usual Post Game Depression, I've been really sitting with the experience. Admittedly, I was both confused by the ending (and Zack scenes) + didn't complete the OG FF7, so post-Cosmo Canyon was new for me. But I kept thinking, "This doesn't seem like multiverses...is it timelines? No, because some things aren't making sense if they're overlapping...multiple realities?" The theory about the Re-Trilogy being a "final moment before death dream sequence" makes the most sense, especially with the themes of life, death, the Lifestream, and the law of reciprocity - returning from whence we came. My gears are turning, especially about the topics of dreams (Zack/Cloud's proclamation of ideals + Aerith's moment of bliss before accepting that her death will lead to life), perspectives, the depth of spirituality, "deny destiny together" (I appreciate the callback to FFXIII btw, as it's one of my favorites because of that exact theme), and mortality. I could see part 3 exploring Cloud's death, which would nicely tie in Advent Children + reflect the headspace of the developers surrounding mortality (pandemic, massive loss, near 30 years since the original, etc). Gee whiz, this video was great! Thank you for crafting wonderful thoughts about an amazing game!

🥹wow Josh! Thank you for a perfectly emotionally executed essay. I was moved by not only the point of view but the psychology of loss and acceptance of fate or death as something more human than alien. I’m a psychological person at heart and very curious to learn not only different points of view but understand not only human nature but the spiritual nature of being self aware. Even if a person isn’t religious or spiritual they cannot deny that there is something that connects us and moves us to not only nature but of wonder. When ever we look into the stars or watch a sunrise or set, when we look at mountains or valleys, venture into sea and discover the secrets of the deep. We know the something bigger there’s something more meaningful. I love the original ff7 for the characters and how they interacted with each other . The music sucked me into a world of emotional chaos with a touch of stability through a weird sense of optimism.(like Zach lol) with the remake trilogy it has deepen my appreciation for the story and relationships that we get to dive more into even deeper. 🙏 I appreciate your time and effort to this video. Thank you again. It was really Good!👍🏻💪🏻

Hope you are wrong but a very beautiful deep dive

I’m for the idea that cloud is definitely stuck within multiple timelines. One where he saved her own one where he didn’t. Which is going to play into what happens at the northern crater where he breaks down. The acceptance of her being gone is going to be a part of it. I don’t believe him seeing Aerith at the end of the game and then fighting together is all in his head. I think she really is there for him. Because he broke the timeline when he stopped sephiroths blade. But for the rest of the party, and the main timeline, she’s gone And cloud accepting that is going to be part of how tifa brings back the true cloud. The one that stops sephiroths

Despite its controversy I absolutely love what the remake project is doing. It’s letting me reexperience the game again for the first time. While still keeping me on the edge of my seat for what’s going to happen and what’s going to change and what won’t. No other remake can and will ever do that the way this game is

35:30 🤯🤯🤯

would love for them to have aerith survive by trilogy end but nomura already stated the og plot wont really deviate and that kinda hurts lol

This is a really great video. While for me, it didn't introduce any new ideas on the game, but it did reframe them in a way that was much more serviceable.

I have a question about nibelheim incident. Of all people, why was Sephiroth sent to Nibelheim? Was that Hojo's plan? Or it was just by chance?

people keep sayin the new games are a sequel to OG, but i think its more like how you said it: a spiritual thing, those "timelines" are actually different versions of what things would be, what they could be, but not in a sense of time travel or multiverses, but used as a narrative tool to brings us all these emotions the game proposes to impact us with. In the end of it all, its all gonna be set aside and the things that happened in OG will be preserved, there wont be any discovery of how things happened after OG.

The ending of this video brought me to tears :(

Good analysis. But we need part 3 to see whole puzzle. Before that, its just assumptions...

I've enjoyed listening to this essay multiple times and it's kept me entertained while grading. I'd like to point on thing out as it relates to the human lifespan. The notion that nature did not "intend for us to live this long" is a bit of a nonsensical statement as nature lacks intentionality. I get what your saying but we have to be a bit careful when describing these types of things as we often attach human characteristics to natural phenomenon that is not capable of such "intentions". Anyway, thanks again for this really thoughtful piece of work! I'm sure I'll listen quite a few more times :P

The amount of times you repeat the same basic bitch shit has me feeling like I’m stuck in a post death loop for sure

Great discussion but I think it could be even better if you tried not to interrupt your guests so much. There were quite a few times throughout the discussion where you interrupted someone just as they were getting to their point, especially when SubTXT was talking. If you have a different point of view or something to add then let your guests finish and come back to it afterwards, cutting them off feels frustrating to the viewer. I say this with kindness and hope to see more videos like this in the future!

Last thing. This is a request. Could you go back and watch the Aerith dream sequence from remake. I think it’s interesting to watch now with new context… also she warns cloud not to fall in love with her… even if “he thinks it’s real”…. Could be a jenova clone foreshadowing…

Cloud is always the unreliable narrator. I don’t think he saved aerith. Similar to the old games cloud can’t accept reality…. But to be fair when he “saves” aerith there is the glittery light that seems to appear when history is altered

I agree beagleverse is the main reality… but isn’t Zack’s timeline the OG FF7. If beagle is the main or true timeline wouldn’t that make original FF7 the alternate universe. Based on the sequence of events

@joshiepoo2525 I understand you’re the host and you’re trying to guide the conversation but you got 3 of the biggest brains in the ff7 community you gotta let them cook. 42:14

Need another with Victor

One thing that I think isn't discussed enough...what do the characters in this world mean by "fate"? Media, especially Western media, has trained us to think of the word to simply mean predestination, a written out future, etc. But what does the word mean in the context of the Lifestream? Fate and multiverses were not really a theme in the OG. And I still think they aren't - at least, not in the way media has trained us to think about them. Just as they've cleverly reapplied the Lifestream to construct a different way of thinking about "multiverses", "timelines", etc., that is actually perfectly in line with the OG's themes of memory, human will, and collective subconscious, there's definitely something similar going on with "fate", which throws the whole way we should look at the Whispers into question.

When it comes to deciphering a story, Occam's Razor only works if you're acutely aware of what the author's intent is from all angles. Otherwise, what might seem like the simplest approach might actually be the one that's least constructive. There's a video floating around (I won't mention the title and bully the creator) of someone applying Occam's razor when his very, very obvious intent is hating Aerith's character and wanting her to be the fool, so that Sephiroth can be the awesome one outsmarting her all the time. That's an extreme example, but just beware of the dangers of seeking what you feel is the simplest answer - it can become a sneaky trap for confirmation bias.

Now we just need the crazy underwear transformation!

Honestly, describing them as bubble worlds within the lifestream is a great way to describe what’s happening. It’s actually the simplest way I’ve heard it described.

Personally I think Aerith's real death scene will be when the group returns to look for the white materia in the city of the ancients. The LS scene consists of recreating Cloud's identity. This is the climax of the game. FF7 is a game about it's hero's identity crisis. You have to put yourself in the place of a player who doesn't know the OG. In terms of narration and emotion it makes more sense to separate these two sequences.

Great conversation guys. Probably the least 'out there' discussion I've heard about the worlds. Clear, consise and easily digestible. Thank you all for your time.

This is a wonderful argument, and I’m inclined to agree (although I have my own shading of it like everyone else, but less on the themes and more on how they are/will be portrayed: I think Loveless is unironically going to be important here, G edition especially). One thing I think is dividing people is that Japan is a high context culture while the US is a lower context one. The English localisation is mostly British English, and the UK is another high context culture. For me, a Brit, the ambiguity and metaphysicality doesn’t feel extremely weird or confusing as our own media can be similar. I’m guessing it would be a bit jarring if you’re used to more direct storytelling (in the same way as US media feeling a bit jarring to me sometimes with how direct it can be). Really though for any story we must not be too demanding: they have a story they want to tell, with whatever message they want to try to convey. We can like or not like it, and can interpret it as much as we want, but we aren’t entitled to a particular story told a particular way. Art by the committee of public opinion is usually terrible and satisfies no one (least of all the artists, but also the fans).

That music transition at 14:45 was next-level. Well played.

I came up with a nifty idea after listening to this twice. You ask about the defeat of the whisper harbinger being the catalyst for all of these pocket worlds.. which could explain why these pocket worlds are all Midgar - because that is the location where fate is diverging. It makes me interested in - part 3 - when we return to Midgar - will we see cloud or Tifa slipping between the veil of these pocket worlds that have Midgar as their focal point. Mind blown 🤯

You guys are all getting a lot better at expressing and describing how we think the game story is working now with some months removed from release. 🎉🎉 gotta listen again.

How did I miss this 😂 welp watching now 🎉🎉🎉🎉 you guys need to tell me when there’s hours more rebirth speculation pods 😂😂 jk jk

Thanks for sharing such valuable information! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). Could you explain how to move them to Binance?

my crazy theory is that we know what marlene said to zack "cloud tries to save her but he doesn't make it in time" so i believe he just stood in front of aerith unable to take control of himself and sephiroth kill her, but this time there is this green glow(lifestream like)+rainbow(rainbow= a change in the reality) that suddenly appear on cloud hands that then cover his sword being able to take control of himself and deflect sephiroth sword. i think cloud got help from the lifestream in that moment ( i think either zack or cloud himself from another world or the future) sort of like the ending of kh3 when sora save someone but we find out how in the DLC. (going back in time etc.)

5:16 just to clarify something here, in JP aerith says" this materia will surely save the world", also in the ultimania nomura mention that the words "the world will be save , but will you?" is intertwined with Aerith's fate. so its indeed about her and not cloud, also in the JP is "Will you be in the world i'm trying to save?"

Return/Reunite

Great discussion and video. I would love if you guys did a play by play of the final fights of Rebirth based on your current theories. The discussion got me thinking of how the fight transitions and what that means of the worlds/dreams. Like we go from the Jenova lifeclinger fight, to Zack and Cloud in what looks to be the Edge of Creation via white whispers. We then fight Sephiroth reborn, multiple times with the different parties seemingly between different worlds: Cloud (Edge), Main Party (forgotten capital?) and Zack (Dying Church). Is this a singularity event or just transitioning between worlds via white/black whispers. Once Seph reborn is defeated we return to Edge of creation to have our final fight with Sephiroth.

Loved the game why add this multiverse no need her death didnt even impact me because your playing with her the lack of bone village rockets town wuitie too they dropped the ball with a few things in the game overall still going to eat up part 3 but i mean story beat they are still at end of disk 1

In the most 'basic' of terms I think of 'fate/whispers' as the TSA from Loki, keeping everything moving down the intended path or 'sacred timeline'. People ultimately have the ability to change the timeline and create a branching reality but the whispers and the arbiter stop them. Sephiroth essentially tricks the group into killing the arbiter and now these 'branches' can manifest. I don't think these are like...purgatory or pockets of 'memories' of individuals for a few reasons, the most prominent of reasons being far too much seems to physically move/exist between them all to be just like metaphysical plains. NOW i think as a result of these branches, it's causing the lifestream to basically 'create' them whenever someone ends up changing the timeline, and whether it's due to the lifestream not having as much energy to keep the reality going, or Sephiroth's doing, some of these 'possible timelines' 'die' and the energy returns to the planet which Sephiroth is seemingly siphoning. I think what Sephiroth may be trying to do is use these idea of new worlds being created and then 'dying' as a way to continue the cycle of 'the planet' in perpetuity, essentially creating a world and maybe by extension, him, that can never die. I also get the feeling while Aerith is definitely against what Sephiroth is trying to do, she isn't exactly 100% onboard with the direction the 'planet' is going. It may be due to the notes of FF7 ultimania which suggest that humanity, 500 years after the events of FF7 has been wiped out.which is seemingly the intended path of the planet.

Maybe the heartfelt payoff that these worlds will have is that the bonds that Marlene has now made with Tifa, Aerith, and Zack, will allow her to trust Cloud. And this bond of trust somehow saves her life, like in a Midgar Raid situation.

“I couldn’t have dreamt that, it all felt…way too real”

I'd pay good money for SE to go ultimate troll and reveal that it was the OG that was the dream! Can you imagine the level of ape-sh*t that would create? It would make the shipper wars look like a polite disagreement! lol

What I'm not getting about the second theory is whether he's implying that as cloud saving aerith was a dream, is this implying that cloud is in the life stream? Wouldn't he have to be dead ?

Funny enough Nojima already made things pretty clear 15 years ago in the book On the Way to a Smile. Lifestream Black II: "So long as Cloud remembers me, I (Sephiroth) will always exist. Within the Lifestream, or on the surface." Lifestream White II: "She (Aerith) thought of Cloud, living on the planet's surface, in the corporeal world." Lifestream Black III: "especially when he (Sephiroth) realized it was his actions aboveground that had engendered it." "He (Sephiroth) tried to send his spirit above to walk the surface." "The three who walked upon the planet's surface were not him, and yet, they were." Lifestream White III: "She (Aerith) realized the one responsible for sowing all that hatred was trying to manifest himself in the living world." Granted this is from the English book, unsure how it differs from the Japanese. Nonetheless, we can see that Nojima draws a clear distinction between the lifestream in general, and a singular living/surface/corporeal world aboveground. I think the corporeal part is troublesome because in Rebirth we did see Aerith physically transfer materia into the surface world, but perhaps this was retconned for the remake and will make sense next game. Referring to the surface world as living is interesting as it proves that those within the lifestream are indeed dead in relation to those on the surface. This complements Aerith in Rebirth saying about Sephiroth "Dunno about 'alive' so much as... 'around'." It also preserves one of the core themes of the game pertaining to the importance of life/death and dealing with loss. All of this ultimately points to option 2 of your choices being correct, especially in conjunction with the additional in-game evidence you listed.

I’m coming down from the “burial being the climax of the lifestream sequence” thing. I think there will be multiple chapters of lifestream sequence, one with Cloud alone reliving Aerith’s death/burial, and later one with Tifa there, where he really finds his identity and realizes he actually did keep his promise.

I’m coming down from the “burial being the climax of the lifestream sequence” thing. I think there will be multiple chapters of lifestream sequence, one with Cloud alone reliving Aerith’s death/burial, and later one with Tifa there, where he really finds his identity and realizes he actually did keep his promise.

This was such a great discussion. Can't wait for the next one. 😎