okay i found the rest of it by searching both of their names

Misspoke. Sixty years back!!

Why have Erika left the group?

That's not even the problem. Anyone who doesnt think black Americans contributed to jazz and other American music is not a serious person. The actual problem is Nick's misunderstanding that culture and community are inherent. In his original tirade on his blog in 2013/14, he was quick to point out that race and jazz (id go as far as saying any genre of music can be marketed solely for monetary gain) are capitalist constructs. Yet, 2 paragraphs later he quipped: "I don't think the selling of the art is the problem. It's the forces that control the system under which it's sold that creates conflict. Most of which it can be solved by calling it Black music" Anybody with a principled understanding of social relations and market ecology can infer that Nick doesn't understand what capitalism is. A more in depth understanding of how talks of culture, which became the substituted temperment of racial biology that was prominent in the pre WW2, began to displace talks of political economy and the understanding of what you do as who you are would shine a light on his mystifications. Simply changing the name of a genre of music doesn't stop Spotify and record labels from commidfying art and puntively harming musicians financially. Nick isn't even concerned with that as he still thinks the "system", capitalism, is ultimately ok if only 14% of the 1% were black owners. What's left is proportionate inequality Even more troubling is him literally taking a page from Victorian era race science with a quote from the same post, "There is a rhythmic lilt to how you phrase that is in encoded in your DNA." There is? I've yet to see any scientific peer reviews on rhythm being a biological trait and not what it actually is -a learned skill whether by it being around you while growing or institutionally taught. But perhaps he's referring to the culturalist hyperbole of "it's in our blood". Either way, it's a form of trying to proclaim authenticity in order to elevate one's or a social groups status. "We (insert social group) are the progenitors of this art form because it's in our blood and thus we should own it". A fun thought experiment would be to do an extreme inverse. A white guy made the internet, thus only white people should profit from it and all future understanding, talks surrounding and on it, and material interest concerning it should solely be understood as coming from a white tradition.... Lunacy. The proclamations of authenticity or real speaker for the communitarian is ultimately why he, quite literally, parades the BAM moniker on flags at shows as well as a hashtag on his website. It's just a marketing strategy wrapped up in neoliberal identity politics with a bit of folk wisdom an uncle tells you at Thanksgiving dinner. Nick shouldn't be taken seriously when it comes to politics and identity as he has no background in them. His takes on the government "scripting" covid should've relegated him to a canal st soap box. But he's a prolific trumpet player in whatever idiom or genre he wants to claim. If you're actually serious about these ideas you should read what political theorists say about these ideas: www.theobeers.com/reed-archive/drums-saying-booker/

I saw your comment here 7 months ago and made a mental note to use the thread as a dead mailbox if it ever made sense. Now there is already a response to your comment that should also be discussed. I'll first read the other commenter's linked article and then respond. If the other commenter is reading here, I have a question for you in advance: Are you familiar with the racism that is experienced every day in the USA? And that it's not just Black vs. White. And of course this is lived in a capitalistically organized world. (Completely obvious)

@@narosgmbh5916 hi. If it's me you are refering to as the first commentator...yes, I am familiar with race tension in USA/ Americas and the UK and the Caribbean

@@deetee4403 When we talk about Payton, I always refer to the varieties of American racism as it is embedded in American society and effects the lives of Americans. In practical life there, this can mean, that in some areas you can get only construction jobs if you are of Latino American ethnicity, in other areas you are better off beeing Irish American if you want to become a police officer. This can be continued endlessly and shows how the USA is racially divided through the fragmentation into communities/races (unequal) and then thinks about how they can get rid of this systemic racism, because at the same time all Americans are supposed to be equal. If legal scholars there are supposed to take on the problem, they are not some left-wing or right-wing "weirdos" but rather the leading minds of the American legal system Now back to Payton and the music. There are schools of art that have reproduced in informal cadres from the first masters to their students, who would later become masters themselves . Take the Boldon, Oliver, Johnson line to Louis Armstrong. All his role models, non of them in the music education program of the music learning schools. And that's what Payton is reffering to, the typical black path to mastery. Play (learn) with old masters and listen to old masters long enough until you are mature enough to be a master yourself. A transfer of knowledge/skills to the next generation that is completely different than the traditional path in white educational institutions. Being excluded as a black person and creating something on your own path, including a self-created black educational path, can rightly be called Black American music. Because I knew Joe Zawinul and the path he took, he also called it black American music, learned in the black American music school. There is a story about Zawinul that he had a black drummer (not Billy Cobham) who had been living in Switzerland for many years flown in for a audition and knew beforehand that nothing could happen with him - anyone who has spent many years outside the black musician community has forgotten everything, was his premonition, and he was right. Where Payton gets to the core, he correctly describes what black music is. Where Payton becomes a philosopher, he would have been better of remaining a musician and using the time to hone his musical mastery. Even a master never stops learning in the black school of music. (I wrote in such detail above to make clear how far the chatter of our unembloyed youtuber is from American reality )

@@narosgmbh5916 @narosgmbh5916 I really couldn't put it better than you have, so often white people have a tendency to just thinl things follow a linear line that they know of and are comfortable with. The idea then that there is something else going on alongside, is either treated with suspicion or incredulity, which leads to attempts at being discredited. Andy, doesn't feel included and so he comes up with theory after theory until he finds one that he is comfortable with but each time it is discredited by the musicians themselves. Andy was initially trying to say that creoles were not blacks and he cited Sidney Bechet in support of this, not acknowledging the nuance in Bechet's comment, that what was really being said was that he was not African American who were seen as the lowest of the low...but Bechet is still black. A lot of white liberals really don't understand this finer point and so would not know that as I have continually said, jazz can be music with black origins and also American music. In regards to Andy, I believe he is currently unemployed because his big mouth has got him into trouble with his university and he had to resign. It might be the same situation as with his friend Martin Speake, whose black students are boycotting his classes. Look up Martin Speake boycott.

Sorry, Shaye Cohn of Courage! RD

Sorry, Shaye Cohn, excuse me … RD