Yes - I agree with you of course - but this was a challenge tuning, for various reasons. On a very very tight timeschedule the priority here was to get the instrument into shape, as it wasn't before, so that it was better even if a 2nd pass wasn't possible. Where speed is of the essence it's a case of doing the best one can and then tidying up anything annoying afterwards. It's also here a matter of priority - the client had a primary Bosendorfer in the house and this was 2nd instrument hardly played but tuned for the purpose of trialling a different temperament. On a concert tuning one must be more particular of course. I do take precautions on pin stability which might not be visible in a video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHilg5eCiZh_iMk and kzbin.info/www/bejne/e53LiayhiJl7opI were also challenge tunings.

@@unequally-tempered oh yes, I am sure you do, I wasn't meaning to insinuate that you didn't. I am a blind piano tuner and multi instrumentalist myself, so I come from a place of knowing what this stuff is about and just how much of a challenge it can be. I have never tuned an unequal temperament though, I might have to try that one day.

@@jeremyrusu9687 You're brave! I recommend Kellner or Kirnberger III which are nice and easy with perfect 5ths but one has to tune not in the usual way matching harmonics but getting perfect fifths at the fundamental pitch. I tune by machine and for curiosity tried on kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5rZg4VvqL6NZqM to see if it could be done by ear.

I'm still loving this one twelve years later.

It's very nice to use. I don't like the modern ones on which the spanner tip screws into the turning shaft. It seems a nuts arrangement! On this the handle screws into the tip

Glad you found the video helpful. It's the TLA CTS5 and is super accurate and does exactly what I want it to and controllably so.

Thanks and good to know these videos are appreciated. The tuner is a TLA CTS5 and in my opinion there's nothing that compares. It's controllable and measures what you want it to measure rather than abominated by too-clever algorithms. tuning-set.de/

@@unequally-tempered Thank you for that info! Much appreciated 🙂

What is too slow? What is too subjective?

Apologies. In haste I mis-spelled her name - Johanna De Cloitre and I first heard her earlier this year playing in competition - kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWaVhH17nL5lj7c

Thank you.

Probably an errant input on the Tascam DR70 on which it was recorded

Thanks. I tune rather than play and so that others can play better.

Thanks so much. I've been doing "warts and all" videos of some of my tunings recently as I hope it's good encouragement to others as to what we're listening for and some problems that we face with instruments which behave in different ways and which we might not regard as perfect. This temperament is very similar to Kellner - it's Kirnberger III and on the Steinway B size instrument I've found it to be very successful.

Yes - I voiced the hammers and this is how I like to hear a piano! But the tuning helps too. On the C3 it can create resonance enabling it to serve as a concert instrument in large places kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpy3d5ijmK5getk although I need to do some voicing on that instrument in due course

@@unequally-tempered I can't find much documentation on this point, but some technicians have noticed that on a 1900 Bechstein or Steinway, the points of the trichord on the bridge are not exactly aligned. The three strings of the same note are therefore not exactly the same length, and the resulting slight phase shift when tuned could explain their particularly lilting and free character. I currently have a 1907 Bechstein 3/4 that has this characteristic and I don't know of a more singing and ethereal piano... Perhaps this ties in with your idea of an uneven temperament that frees up the instrument's resonance... Kind regards

@@XUMbxl So the bridge isn't notched on yours? I'd love to tune it to test. It means that the harmonics will be shifted and give a singing quality to each note. I've come to the conclusion that on magnetic tape recorders the very slight wow and flutter is the defining difference with a good digital recording and that slight vibrato makes the sound come alive.

@@unequally-tempered I've got that impression too! All the best for the future and long live sound...

Yes - it creates a stillness. Compare kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmikoHlpr9uWl6s in a similar tuning and with similar effect

;-) Thanks - this is based on Kirnberger III whilst kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHm3ZJ2kr9qFrpI was a year ago Kellner based. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJDEn3d-orKdrqc was the first foray of an opera singer with her Kawai of similar size Kellner based.

How very interesting. Where does this information come from?

I was initially very excited after seeing your point. However, I quickly became disillusioned with this. Judging from multiple major successful concerts, his D flat major, A flat major, and B flat minor were clearly not as dissonant as 21.5 cents and even not 17 cents from human ear, and his F major was shaky and wobbly. Some single notes can be measured by the tuning sets, such as the F minor in the Polonaise in Op.53, which can be measured at around 16 cents. His piano was most likely tuning with normal equal temperament, unfortunately. His piano was obviously specially customised, but not in terms of tuning. Unless you're talking about some of his early recordings, I'd love for you to share your perspective further. Sincerely

@@Moja_Ballada Yes - likewise. Irrespective of Horowitz, what I'm doing with the unequal temperament however opens up possibilities. I think that whilst Erard pianos were straight strung unequal tuning worked on them in France but beyond that, whether "historically correct" or not, it can make the instrument sound rather wonderful.

​@@unequally-tempered Thank you for your reply, totally agree with this. Around ten years ago I heard a Steinway expert say ‘Steinway is only good for 440hz equal temperament’, because at that time I discussed with him the possibility of 432hz on modern grand piano. But I've always had faith in the possibilities of modern grand pianos in unequal temperament. Anyway, I'm honoured to follow your channel and get to watch your experiments. Sincerely

@@Moja_Ballada kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmikoHlpr9uWl6s is probably what you're looking for. 432 is spoof but unequal temperament does it all

This is Kirnberger III which I'm trialling. For an audience Kellner sounds "nice" but the stronger Kirnberger III puts chromaticism on steroids and audiences say they can hear it an like it.

Great and a pleasure to be in touch. I’m in Sussex UK and email address is [email protected]. I go to all sorts of places to tune and am currently tuning for concerts in Greece

WOW! The TP1 and the Audiovector were extraordinary works of art in their construction

This is based on Kirnberger III. I used to think it too strong but a number of the more musical people for whom I tune like it so have adopted it for the concert instrument at Hammerwood kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2GcZ2enprhmh5I

@@unequally-tempered Interesting. I too used to find it strong in the days when I had access to a collection of harpsichords. That said, I have practically zero experience with unequally-tempered piano. I eagerly await the day of tuning.

Especially when unequally tempered! Here's another kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5XZhWmjdqqMoMU and another kzbin.info/www/bejne/iIncnqijoZVmpqc

Thanks so much! I hope that such videos can help others to do better tunings seeing and hearing perhaps mistakes that I make as well as things that I do better successfully.

Is it the Consolation?

When one string vibrates, the soundboard doesn't vibrate much. But when two or three strings vibrate they're shaking the soundboard more so that the end of the string isn't still and the effective length to the zero movement point or node of the vibration is longer, so the pitch is flatter. With some instruments one notices it more than with others.

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When one string vibrates, the soundboard doesn't vibrate much. But when two or three strings vibrate they're shaking the soundboard more so that the end of the string isn't still and the effective length to the zero movement point or node of the vibration is longer, so the pitch is flatter. It's a variation of Kellner temperament with 5 perfect fifths. Upright Bechsteins sound lovely but are pigs to tune. They use agraffes of a vicious design which requires a jerk motion for tuning and fine adjustment is very difficult. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWq7Y593mNd0ZrM

@@unequally-tempered That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. And thanks for the video. My tuner is in for a treat. I can already see myself bugging him with your video as reference! Though I have seen him work on uprights and recognise the techniques you demonstrated - vertical lever, tapping. Cheers.

@@cfeaugas The upright Bechstein in the video that David links to above is mine. It's essentially the same as yours (mine is a III, built in 1900 - the VIII superseded it a few years later). I can confirm that the instrument has acquired a very different character following it being tuned in this way (Kirnberger III here). I very much enjoy the more extreme interplay between dissonance and consonance that is now possible with the instrument. Also, lack of resonance is no longer an issue (or shouldn't be if it is well tuned). I can sit for long periods just listening to very simple chord structures, how the instrument sings in very distinct ways. My technical playing ability is limited, but I am happy to stumble through trying out Bach, taking great pleasure in just a few bars of his; they come alive in ways not possible with Equal Temperament. A word of caution though. The combination of beautiful instrument and inspiring temperament is a potent one, and can have profound effects. I have been unable to resist the temptation to learn more, and am venturing into practising tuning myself. Beware rabbit holes emerging ! Wishing you well on your journey.

@@germsite Thank you for chiming in! Though I fear your warning comes a little too late . . . . but is it really evitable to enjoy what one enjoys? And a beautiful instrument it truly is. I have formed a special bond with Bechsteins. The handful I have ever been able to play . . . . profound moments now some of my most cherished memories . . . . and now the promise of having one such companion. This is a high point of life. Wish you well.

How nice to hear of a like mind! I normally tune to Kellner and have been worried about the stronger key flavours of KIII particularly in Db major but a number of people have liked Kirnberger and I tried it in concert the other day successfully kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2GcZ2enprhmh5I

Normally I tune twisted Kellner as it was before kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHm3ZJ2kr9qFrpI but here it's Kirnberger III adapted to the instrument

@@unequally-tempered Thank you for your prompt reply. I play mostly Classifal piano works and keep my grands tuned to Bremmer Equal Beat Victorian III