Romans 11:29... Has legalism returned?

I feel like this whole thing is a bit of hair splitting. This really is confusing more people rather than clarifying the truth. If someone accepts they are a sinner, and can not be reconciled to God without Christ. This person believes and accepts Jesus Christ as the once and for all sacrifice for all their sins, and that Christ was born, crucified, resurrected on the 3rd day as in the scriptures. This person believes this with all their heart, and are born again and get the Holy Spirit hence made into a "new creature". THEN this person decides to turn on Jesus / H.S / God and reject everything and worship the devil, kill, rape ect.. It makes sense to me that this person NEVER did believe with all their heart, and was therefore never "born again" to begin with, nor did they have truly have the H.S. inhabiting them. IF The H.S. was truly within them it would not have allowed them to blaspheme Jesus or salvation without the chastening and causing repentance...... I always understood that having the H.S was the result of believing the truth as stated above. It also marked us as a child of God, thus keeping demonic spirits out of us as we are sealed with God's H.S because I belong to God now. The Lord marks his own I thought the H.S as that mark. This meant you were "born again" = "saved" = "a new creature" = "Gods child". All those terms mean the same thing, and it is simple and logical as the Lord is NOT the author of confusion... But in the previous video you said being "born again" is NOT technically being "saved", and we are not "saved" until Christ takes us up to be officially "saved". Therefore, it is possible to be "born again", yet forfeit being "saved" based on our actions. THEN just now you clearly said no one loses the H.S. but how can you denounce the H.S and reject Christ and God, yet keep their Spirit within you still? How can someone be unborn again or unsaved or un new creatured yet keep the H.S? I have never heard of the Holy Spirit ever inhabiting an unborn again person or a nonbeliever. I understand losing rewards or maybe a crown for disobedience to Christ that makes sense, but not losing salvation. If someone DOES lose salvation then it stands to reason they also lost the H.S and THAT sounds very Pentecostal to me. I'm no scholar but I have done verse by verse studies of all of Paul's epistles, Hebrews, 1 Peter, Jude, James, multiple studies of Revelation, Acts, Genesis, Daniel, to name a few. Every night I listen to a lot of sermons and preachers like Charles Lawson, J.D Farag, Robert Breaker, John Barnett, Chuck Missler, Gene Kim, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Butch Bruton, Joseph Prince, Bill Johnson, Peter Ruckman, ect.. I have never heard any of them say this stuff. So I wonder are we trying to reinvent the wheel with all this, or all these preachers and most of Christendom mistaken???

Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

So far on this topic, I think you guys have crossed the line. We have so many clear verses that show us salvation is permanent completed by Jesus Christ for us And nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. You have to fight and struggle to pull out those verses when it’s so easy to see the clear verses, so obvious God wants us to be certain and so sure of our everlasting life with Him even if we do sin quite a bit actually. Spirit and truth has did a good job of showing us about God‘s extra rewards program and why we should strive to attain those rewards, So we can help our Lord to run his kingdom in the next life and so we can make make our Father proud that we are making an effort to live that new nature out in this life. You can be Very Certain you are definitely causing confusion and anxiety on this topic brother, and I warn you to watch yourselves! We know what 1 Corinthians 3 talks about marring the church. I still love you and I will absolutely pray for you that you become more clarified on this topic before you go sharing it with the body of Christ and causing pain and doubt and uncertainty in the hearts of God‘s people

Our relationship with Jesus is like a marriage. The church is the bride of Christ. In the same way a marriage can be dissolved, so too can salvation can be lost. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not a works-based salvation where you have to be fearful of constantly losing it. God is not going to kick you to the curb when you fall short, it’s you walking away (abandonment) or giving yourself to another lover (spiritual adultery), that causes a separation. Back in the day a betrothal was a legally binding marriage contract. Even though the wedding came later, they were technically married. The Bible says Joseph was a just man. He was planning on divorcing Mary when he found out she was pregnant (Matthew 1:19). The divorce would be legal because she was thought to have committed adultery. By the law, Joseph had the right to divorce her. Divorce is allowed in two situations, adultery (Matthew 5:32) and abandonment (1 Corinthians 7:15). Israel was the wife of God and he divorced her, because of her adultery with idols (Jeremiah 3:8). Idolatry is not just worshiping false statues of gods, but money can be an idol. It’s whatever you have fully given your heart to, that has taken the place of God. Colossians 1:22-23. He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation, IF you CONTINUE in your faith, established AND firm, AND do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. See also (Hebrews 3:14, & Revelation 2:10). If God did not spare the Jewish nation when they walked away from him, due to their lack of trust in him and their adultery, then why would he spare members of the church who do the same thing (Romans 11:20-24)?

2 Tim 1:15 You know this: that all who are in Asia turned away from me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

The metaphors or concepts of "born again" and "adoption" are written to people of different cultures where each would understand the importance of joining a family. I think they both in the Hebrew or Roman culture taken as an establishment of a permanent standing in their respective worlds.

What about Hebrews 6:4-6 it is impossible ... fallen away to renew them again to repentance ...

kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4fChIeLi9NqkK8si=OnoGmKbeWGOLaDmF

Listening to this makes me very sad. Am I not a child of God? Was I not born again of incorruptible seed? Do I follow an incomplete or complete savior? You say I don't lose salvation by sinning, but isn't losing trust, sin? Does anyone 'trust' God 100% of the time 24?7? If not, then do they forfeit their salvation when they don't trust? Is not the body dead because of sin? When someone "forfeits" salvation, do they lose the ability of speaking in tongues? When is that "magic" moment when a person loses "forfeits" salvation? Can they get salvation back or are they lost forever? Will we not be saved from wrath? What about the parable of the "prodigal son". Was not the child the father's son when he was living with the swine? Did not the father gladly take his son back and throw a feast? After many years of following Christ, I "fell off the wagon" so to speak and for some time did some things I am not proud of, like the dog, I returned to my own vomit. I have gotten my life together, so to speak, and I think I am on the right road. If I would have died while was doing those things, would I have not been saved?

You are what you think. If you think that you can lose salvation you will walk the straight and narrow like a good little obedient puppet. If you know and understand eternal security it is smooth sailing for you and you never look back. Eternal security IS the peace that passes understanding. “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” Romans 8:38-39. Well, I would have to agree with Paul on that one. But it is actually better than that. If anyone wants to know , just ask me. Bible spirituality is a piece of cake for me these days.

Thank you, John and Jerry, for sharing your research and insights. As I reflect on the discussion regarding the doctrine of salvation-whether it is permanent or conditional-I find the biblical concept of betrothal to be a helpful analogy for understanding the tensions you’ve explored. Betrothal, in biblical times, was a legally binding commitment, yet it was a period of waiting and preparation, where both the bride and bridegroom anticipated their future union. 1. “I Have Been Saved” - The Beginning of the Betrothal (Justification) When we first come to faith in Christ, it is like the moment of betrothal. Just as the bridegroom formally commits himself to the bride, Christ commits Himself to those who trust in Him, and they are set apart as His people. • Ephesians 2:8 reminds us that salvation begins by grace through faith, much like the bride did nothing to earn the bridegroom’s love but simply received his commitment. • This initial betrothal parallels what you described as the past tense of salvation-“I have been saved”-when a believer is justified by faith and enters into a covenant relationship with Christ. 2. “I Am Being Saved” - The Preparation of the Bride (Sanctification) During the betrothal period, the bride remained faithful and prepared herself for the wedding day. Similarly, believers are in a period of preparation and sanctification, where they must remain faithful to Christ while awaiting His return. • Just as the bride needed to stay committed during the waiting period, believers are called to continue in faith (Colossians 1:22-23). This is what you described as the present tense of salvation-“I am being saved”-where believers are actively growing in trust and obedience. • The bride’s preparation wasn’t passive; it required ongoing effort. In the same way, Paul urges believers to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12), not because salvation is earned, but because faithfulness matters during this waiting period. 3. “I Will Be Saved” - The Wedding Day (Glorification) The betrothal culminates in the wedding feast, where the bride and bridegroom are united forever. This parallels the future tense of salvation-“I will be saved”-when believers will experience the fullness of their salvation at Christ’s return. • Revelation 19:7-9 speaks of the wedding of the Lamb, where the bride (the Church) has made herself ready. This reflects the ultimate fulfillment of salvation when believers are glorified and united with Christ eternally. • As you pointed out, our salvation is not yet fully realized; it remains a future hope (Romans 13:11, 1 Peter 1:5). We are betrothed to Christ, but we await the final consummation of that relationship. 4. Can the Bride Break the Betrothal? In ancient betrothals, while the bridegroom’s commitment was unbreakable, the bride still had the freedom to abandon the relationship before the wedding. This provides a parallel to the warnings in Scripture about remaining faithful and the possibility of forfeiting salvation through unbelief or apostasy. • Passages like Hebrews 3:14 (“We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end”) suggest that remaining in the covenant requires ongoing trust. • 2 Peter 2:20-21 warns that returning to the defilements of the world after knowing Christ leaves a person in a worse state than before. This is akin to a betrothed bride rejecting her bridegroom and breaking the covenant before the wedding. • While the bridegroom (Christ) remains faithful, the bride (believers) must continue in faithfulness until the wedding day. Your research highlights the tension between God’s faithfulness and human responsibility, much like the betrothal analogy emphasizes both the bridegroom’s unwavering promise and the bride’s need to remain faithful. Whether one leans toward the idea of eternal security or conditional security, the betrothal analogy reminds us of two key truths: 1. God’s faithfulness is unchanging: Christ, as the bridegroom, is preparing a place for His bride (John 14:2-3) and will return for her. Nothing external can separate us from His love (Romans 8:38-39). 2. Our faithfulness matters: Just as a betrothed bride must remain faithful during the waiting period, believers are called to continue in faith, living in anticipation of the future wedding feast. In closing, I appreciate the humility with which you approached this topic, acknowledging that it is complex and that both sides have strong biblical support. Your work reminds us that, whether we view salvation as secure or conditional, what ultimately matters is that we remain faithful to our bridegroom, trusting Him until the day He returns to take us to Himself. Thank you again for inviting us into your journey of study. It is encouraging to see leaders wrestling honestly with Scripture and sharing that process with others, much like a bride faithfully prepares for her wedding day. God bless you as you continue this important work!

Some of it makes sense but not completely convinced. Why is John so sad? Not the same John that I know from his older videos.

When we do what Romans 10:9,10 says, we get born again. We have made Jesus Lord. We will be faithful to do what he teaches and commands. If we don't, we have made a mockery of him. We have fallen into the category: not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord. God rejected some of the chosen Israelites, he will do it again with believers who have sinned continually until their death without any obedience.

1st Corn. 5 people were removed from the fellowship and local body and in other places for teaching wrongly and for stealing and all kinds of sins, It doesn't say they lost their salvation. I would expect to be removed like a job if I was not being loyal. Why is that not good enough.. Why would a son "a adopted son" have to loose his salvation. ? Just asking

One more thing, I want to say I kinda always felt like in my life time anyway Eternal Salvation was a pace setter, a changing of the guards so to speak, I remember entire churches changing from the law and bondage of tradition of man, and now we are going backwards, however I want to continue to follow the process of this invaluable topic.

I've lived a disobedient life for years. Thank God for his patience. I know we are not to be servants of sin which leads to death. Gods Love is so big but i don't think we can remain non-responsive.

There seems to be a reason they killed our Lord and that is he changed EVERYTHING and Finally we can defeat the devil, powers of systems, idols and so on.. To make a choice for others as to if they have confidence of the battle we all endure daily should we always be looking over our shoulder wondering if we don't have that final reward...?? I have at least 20 more questions but I'm pretty sure I"m being out of line lol. God Bless Press forward, for truth that sets you free.

John 3:16 Eternal means eternal. I think all scriptures needs to flow like a beautiful fountain.. I would need to UNDERSTAND with out doubt that we can loose salvation. Plus I have a question about "there is a unforgivable sin" I am wondering " since unbelievers that never believed, and there are billions I"m sure this may be clear the unforgivable sin is to not believe as they in scripture "its clear they will not be saved and have eternal life.

2 Corn 5:17 would not the new creation need to become destroyed to loose your rights to adoption or being in the image of Christ, ? we are expected to do plenty but who can judge what is placed in a persons path that makes us judge our brothers instead of trying to help the confused brother we would judge them " whats the profit in that?

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things , nor things to come, nor powers, ? is these angels and rulers demons or powers of the air that could and would trick Gods son or daughter..... Romans 8 seems pretty clear we are more than conquers. If a son gets the living day lights tricked out of him, would god clean him up and accept him if in fact he did become born again.

Romans 8:15 adoption " nothing could change being born again" ? can you become unadopted

Luke 15:11 The Parable of the Lost Son "Even if a person turns from the Father" The father accepts him with open arms, saying my son was lost and has returned:

Loss of rewards but not salvation. That is where my understanding is. This exchange was confusing and unclear to me.

How can we be at peace with God according to Paul's writings if at any point there's a possibility that He'll deem us the trash of the universe? How can it be said by Paul that the love of God "passes all knowledge" for those who are in Christ if there's a possibility that we know exactly what would cause Him to stop loving us? God isn't the author of confusion, but over the span of my lifetime and over the span of 14 years following this ministry, this has been quite the confusing topic.

What about Abba Father? Beloved now are we the sons of God. How can we have a genuine relationship with God, if we do repent with this hanging over us? Will we be motivated by fear?

@39:00 My goodness that was heartwrenching and a call to loving pastoralship.

I admire Jerry's exegetical integrity and transparency. Keeps it all the way One Hunnet!

Very confusing!

And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

God won't provide me with a wife. That's how I know he doesn't love me.

It seems to me, that there is no conflict among the "proof-texts" cited by all sides of this unneeded argument. The answer lies in categorization. If the texts are read according to their category, everything fits. We cannot lose the salvation of our spirit that Christ paid for with his life in the past--we continue to work in the present to earn the salvation of our souls, and we wait with anticipation for the future salvation of our bodies. Remember the story of the three blind men, each examining a different part of the elephant, and each coming away with proof their analysis was correct? The whole topic is like that. People putting their stake in the ground and not budging because they "have the proof."

Interesting topic, I wonder if this channel is actually committed to truth in espousing the clear and irrefutable fact that our Messiah the one who's called “Jesus” at no time practice any of the pagan holidays nor did he promote them in What's irreverently called the New Testament. What he did promote practice and teach and teach us to do the same is to follow the Torah. It behooves me as to why Americans think that a Jewish man preaching, a Jewish gospel, to Jewish believers. Would somehow convince themselves of that. At a time when the New Testament wasn't even written during the time of Messiah walking the Earth, but somehow they would think that the “law has been done away with” or that it was “nailed to the cross” or that we are “no longer bound by any of those things” the fact of the matter is Paul, Messiah, Peter or any of the Apostles never at any time anywhere in any part of what is irreverently called the New Testament every did away with any of God's holy days found in Leviticus and in fact told all of us to strive to keep not only that but the dietary laws as well I am impressed with this channel as far as their monotheism goes, but I think if we're going to tell the truth we need to tell the whole truth and the fact is at no time anywhere did Messiah do away with the law this is easily proven he wasn't preaching a new gospel he was preaching and walking out the Torah there's a passage in 1st John that says we must walk exactly as he walked and the truth of the matter is he taught and obeyed the entire Torah including the Sabbath and the holy days and kept all the dietary laws if we are going to be like him and emulate him we need to emulate all of them not just parts of him For instance, it is an irrefutable fact that our God doesn't change the Bible tells us this so if he doesn't change at no time would he change any of his appointed times this means when the Catholic Church not our God changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday they did it in direct violation of God's word it also means that when they instituted such Pagan festivals as Christmas and Easter neither of which have anything to do with our God they violated God's word the truth of the matter is our Messiah practiced and taught the holy days which consists of Passover first fruits unleavened bread the day of atonement the Feast of Tabernacles Pentecost And the Feast of trumpets www.wycliffe.org/feast/7-feasts-that-point-to-christ Another misconception that has been brought about by the unwillingness of people to see the truth is it is a quick go-to for people to point out that Leviticus claims their Jewish feasts really because our creator says those are HIS (G-ds) feasts not the Jews Feasts and that they should be kept throughout all the generations that doesn't sound like they were nailed to the cross to me Another common argument that the mainstream Church uses to try to circumvent what Messiah taught is that Jewish Believers in Messiah such as myself are practicing works-based salvation this could not be further from the truth we don't keep the law for our faith of what Messiah did and who he was we keep the law because of what he did and who he was and who God sent him to be I just think that if this page which I happen to love is going to be preaching about our Messiah maybe they should consider also talking about doing the things our Messiah did since all the feast days Point directly to him, I eagerly await a response it also should be so noted that one of the major frauds that the modern church has played on its parishioners is using statements from the books of Acts to somehow mislead Believers into thinking that our creator deemed all foods clean if you go and read the passage it's not even talking about food I eagerly await a response it is my hope I will get one

Of course it's called Gethsemane in the Bible . It's in Matthew 26:36 and Mark 14:32

Also is it possible to receive the gospel without repentance?

I think of 1 john 3:2 . Beloved now are we the sons of God. Is it now or later? Also can we born ourselves again any more than the first time?

A discussion about a difference in view regarding the "permanence" of salvation can be enlightening. Thank you for your efforts in providing your interpretation of the verses covered.There have always been different views on this going back to the early church fathers (e.g., Augustine), although the theological discussion then was couched in different terms. However, to say at the outset that you cannot lose your salvation by "simply" sinning is not consistent with what you share later in this webinar. One example is your explication of the last verses in Romans 8. With reference to these verses, you specifically mention that sin (an internal entity) is not on the list of things that cannot separate us from God's love. The obvious implication of this statement in light of the topic at hand is that sin would be involved in a person losing salvation. You also specifically mentioned the sin of pride is in the verse from James that you read. I suggest that you listen carefully to your webinar so you can see why folks might conclude that sin is involved in a loss of salvation. Furthermore, it would be hwlpful for you to be more precise about how you are defining "simply" sinning. If you mean that there is no habitual pattern of sin, then make that clearer. I should note however that weaknesses in the flesh could result in what could be classified as habitual sinning. But at any rate, you do seem to suggest that sin (however you might describe it by degree or category) can result in a loss of salvation. Best wishes for a joyous New Year!

I'm happy you're addressing this topic, it's important to lead us in humility and truth. I respect you both for doing so. I'm sure it's difficult to present this but it is so necessary. I pray many will consider this and benefit from it. Thank you.

Good teaching. I have held to once saved always saved, but that doesnt mean you are forced to be saved..... forced to remain on the bus. Salvation is a gift to all who choose to grasp it. Its our free will choice, to get on the once saved you are promised salvation bus, which is heading for a destination of certainty. But unlike Hotel California, you can check out and leave by the same free choice when you want, but its probably gonna be worse where you get off than where you got on. If you simply stay with the bus you are once saved cant loose it. Nothing can force you off the bus, and once you get to destination its "WOW, DIDNT EXPECT THAT" the reason to get there, secret that God had kept hid, our glory.

This to me is about renewing the mind and following God. Salvation to me is about receiving my new body... cause the one I have now is wearing out. Holy Spirit... speaking in tongues makes me know I can't lose eternal life. Believing in vain means you didn't really believe.

Gal 5:4 You have cut yourselves off from Christ, you who are seeking to be declared righteous by the law. You have fallen away from grace. (KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Dozens of clear verses say we have been “declared righteous/ justified” by God. This means the believer is JUST AS IF NEVER SINNED. Period.

2 Tim 2:14 Remind them of these things, solemnly charging them in the sight of God not to argue about words, for that is not profitable and leads to the ruin of those who are listening. Like the serpent, “Did God really say to the Church of God salvation in Christ is permanent?”

Truly appreciate your approach and honesty on the subject. Throughout all administrations spiritual leaders have questions unanswered. From Moses to Jesus, all humans will come short of all knowing. Through prayer God will reveal and help in a time of need. I believe the answer is already answered salvation is no different than the Old Testament except the receiving of Holy Spirit Thank you for all you do for us truly thankful for you all. God bless you

Sounds like you owe Dan Gallagher an apology.

This is such a great explanation of the permanence of our salvation and inheritance. God is so merciful to make sure that once someone believes, that they can't lose it no matter how much they act badly, ungodly, or "unChristianlike." Father's own seed can not be removed from them. They are His children forever.

Thanks J & J for these thoughts. I had looked up 2 Timothy 2:13 in the Message, The Complete Jewish Bible and the NIV which were pretty insightful for me: Considering these were some of the last words from Paul to Timothy, I would think he wanted to be very specific and clear to him. In the MESSAGE it reads- "If we die with Him, We'll live with Him; If we stick it out with Him, we'll rule with Him; If we turn our backs on Him; He'll turn his back on us; if we give up on Him, he does not give up, for there is no way he can be false to Himself" In the NIV the change is with the 2nd line: If we ENDURE we will also REIGN with him. If we DISOWN him, he will also DISOWN us. If we are FAITHLESS, he remains FAITHFUL, for he cannot DISOWN himself. The only difference in THE COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE is the part on ENDURE says "if we PERSEVERE we will also Rule with Him. I know that these are versions and not translations but the parts on "sticking it out with Him; enduring with HIm and persevere all end with ruling, reigning with HIm. If we "TURN OUR BACKS ON HIM or DISOWN HIM than he turns his back and disowns us. But being FAITHLESS or GIVING UP ON HIM he has to be true to Himself and Faithful to us. I can know someone can be in a relationship but not be really true and faithful. That is very different from disowning and making a strong concious dedcision of not wanting to have anything to do with them. When I sin, I sin in my soul life, which involves my personality and emotions that can trigger my decisions. That has to do with me not abiding in christ and in my works, His works have nothing to do with my personality and emotions. I know that we are responsible for our actions. But my personality and emotions are not not big enough to cancel out everything Christ did on the cross for me. It does suggest strongly in 2 Timothy though that a strong decision on my part to break away from Christ does have serious consequences as being disowned and not ruling with him. I'm also thinking of that verse in Corinthians where a man was having sex with his mother and Paul said to deliver his life to Satan for destruction but his spirit being saved. Could he have had it in his mind to still accept Christ but just enjoyed the sinning part? Doesn't say, Also Ramsey had said that adoption in the Roman culture was something permanent. Now could an adopted son do something so horrendous and evil to his father that there is no longer a realtionship or inheritance? Possible, but wouldn't he still be an adopted son? Definitely consequences, but I get from 2 Timothy that if we "give up on HIm" he still doesn't give up on us. What do you think? thanks Len

Rom 10:9 That if you confessed with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believed in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. [the old REV commentary said these Gr. verbs believe/ confess are aorist tense, one time action in the past]

Of course you can.

That was awesome. I love the transparency and exegetical integrity. Looking forward to seeing an adjustment in the REV commentary on 1 Peter 1:22. Praise God. Bless you men of God!!

I feel like the best way to put it is that you can't lose it by accident, but you can choose to give it away. God gave us free will to choose Him, and he's not going to force us into fellowship and eternal life with him if we don't want it. If we hate God and strive to be separate from him and want nothing to do with him, he will give us what we want.