Jesus fulfilled the old covenant which was done away. There was no need to restore polygamy. It was a disaster for Abraham, Sarah, Hagar and the two sons. It was an even worse mess for Jacob and his 12 sons. It has always been an abomination that desolates. It desolates marriages, love, happiness, peace. It desolates women’s views of their worth. It desolates joy. I come from it. May my foremothers be blessed with their very own one true love in eternity. Every child of God should someday be so blessed.

Ex member here... just want to say Cinderella Man makes me cry every time. SUCH a moving movie.

As someone who really struggled with this issue and put a lot of time and effort into studying the findings of LDS scholars who came out on both sides of the argument, and scholars not affiliated with the church, this was a very disappointing podcast. This felt a lot more like a very poor pitch for his books than an attempt to address any issues. I understand that there is a time constraint and you can't summarize all of your life's work here, but you could at least present a few solid arguments, rather than just imply that solid arguments exist and to go buy your books. This just felt incredibly pointless and disingenuous. You just attacked the CES letter for being a narrow view and stating that they didn't represent all of the context, but then provided no such context.

He keeps implying that the CES letter is dishonest because it takes "short scary" pieces of the gospel topics essay and doesn't use all the other parts of the essay... Aren't you missing the point of the letter? He isn't interested in the 99 percent of the essay that is mental gymnastics to explain away the problem they are acknowledging. Joseph claimed that he translated the papyri. The evidence shows he did not. Everything else is irrelevant to his point in the letter. You can claim that he thought he was translating, but the scriptures say that he isn't a God of confusion.

Stop all the stupid ignorant BS! If there was racism,t blame God because this ban is clearly mentioned in Abraham chapter one which clearly speaks of the "RACE" that was banned from the priesthood, and that is scripture and church doctrine!!! READ also Moses 7:22 and 7:8!!! Continued...

"tell me where the book came from?" No one can answer that question, all attempts are futile, the book is true!

This could be for me, not sure yet. Decided yesterday to take as objective and raw of a look at the church as I can and to truly make truth my goal whether I find it in this church or not. Last night I read through more than the first half of the CES letter and it tore my heart out. Decided to finish reading the letter today and while clicking on links and trying to look up sources on my own I somehow stumbled upon an episode of this. I know I’m trying to be objective but to be honest it brought me a lot of hope that there’s a possibility to openly look at all of the history and facts and still have a genuine testimony. I don’t know what the other side of this journey is going to look like for me but I’m glad I have a resource in this channel to see how faithful Latter-day Saints interpret and make sense of these topics. Thank you for all your effort in making this channel and to all those who help with it.

Wish I had known all this before I traveled around saying it was fake anti material.

The first and main anachronism: the papyri are talking about funeral rituals, there is absolutely nothing about Abraham

So wait, Joseph went and married a young girl at 14, the church recognizes this as fact.. and you’re telling me he didn’t tell Emma? 😂 the apologetics out of this guy and the wildly spinning nuance he tries so desperately to drive home is honestly laughable. Look at the facts and choose for yourself if you believe that Joseph smith can be the one god chooses to bring back his church. The church simply cannot stand up to scrutiny

That's ridiculous advice for dealing with polygamy. It's not difficult to find the Happiness letter, the story of Martha Brotherton, Heber C Kimball complaining about not getting a fair shake at the pretty young converts girls. You can't hide from reality.

🤔🤦‍♀️Brian Hales today bears witness against Brian Hales interview on Mormon Stories Podcast with John Dehlin. Details given there about Silvia Sessions & Josephine Lyon he's had to walk back after DNA studies. The reality of the happiness letter, Martha Brotherton, and his limited offers to be sealed eternally to him or face something less than exaltation is all evidence of Joseph's coercion in what was ultimately debauchery. There isn't one plural wife of Joseph's, which Emma found first, and sanctioned Joseph marrying for time & eternity. There's no legitimate defense of polygamy or polyandry that doesn't fuel the justifications of sexual predators the Church was forced to excommunicate and leave to the repercussions of the law. Until this religion is fully prepared to say Joseph Smith Jr was wrong and lead the Church astray with polygamy the abused younger generations will continue to exit. The hubris of the predator is to tell their victim, "I've repented with my leaders... now you must be forgiving of me to maintain your salvation." The blue print is in D&C 132 & evidenced in the repeated threats of damnation for Emma if she doesn't forgive Joseph for constantly, reluctantly persuing over 30 women to be his plural wives. Polygamy was cultural for Ancient Israel, not doctrinal. That's abundantly clear from numerous Biblical scholars and one of my favorite Rabbi's on the internet, Rabbi Tovia Singer.

Great podcast, however, try not to bury the lede with your get to know you questions.

We don’t know what Joseph did or didn’t introduce during the endowment. Brigham claimed that Joseph asked him to organize and systematize the endowment.

Be wary of Mormon Stories viewers flooding in.

Huge respect for Bushman One of my favorite lds historians I think this is what we need to hear, truthful and honest Be upfront with the facts is mostly the only change i hope for Im in the the minority but i believe the light of day to be a good thing that can strengthen faith

27:10 Joe Smith was sealed to 34 women, but Warren Jeffs was sealed to 83, so Joseph is totally OK!!!! Joseph was sealed to 14 year old girls, but Warren was sealed to a 12 year old so Joseph is totally OK! My word, this kind of justification at all costs is pathetic

For sure! Do you happen to have any real time information you can share? And happy birthday in advance! What does that make you. 230 yrs old this year?

The witnesses were all relatives and co-conspirators.

Also looking at Jeremys timeline people have proved the CES letter isnt about finding light and truth the whole idea of the letter is dishonest.

With all of the information we have now, it seems painfully obvious what the priesthood/temple ban was. It was racism and prejudice plain and simple, put in place by a man who was pro slavery and held racist views. It caused confusion but overall was perpetuated by additional men with racist views. The 1978 “revelation” was merely a board meeting and an example of the church caving to social pressure. It’s truly disappointing that we suggest that God had anything to do with it, that is what it means to use Gods name in vain. Let’s just acknowledge already that the ban was not from God, let’s repent for the pain it’s caused, and let’s move on.

Different topic but speaking about common consent, D&C 132 was added in 1876 and was not done by common consent.

We don’t know is not an acceptable answer to this question. The early church leaders repeatedly gave their reasons for polygamy, it just turns out it’s not the watered down faith promoting story we were taught growing up. The church is going to continue to stumble over this issue until they recognize that, just like the priesthood ban, polygamy is not from God and was a major mistake from our past. It’s going to be more painful the longer they wait, we can’t continue to misinterpret scriptures as a way to justify our polygamous past. This is an abusive, harmful practice that women continue to be coerced into through fundamentalist groups, and the LDS church is complicit as long as they don’t renounce this practice.

oh boy they;re back

Is there an episode where Steven discusses the polygamy section of the CES Letter?

The sections on the Book of Mormon in the Light and Truth Letter offer some very compelling arguments regarding its complexity, for those looking to take a more secular approach.

Genius branding !

Nevermind that not one single university archaeologist in the world supports the BOM history, nor can even tell you what continent the supposed BOM history took place on. READ the Gospel of John and ask THAT Jesus what is true.

Here are some historical facts that seem to be overlooked... 1. Martin Harris: Historical accounts show Harris was a witness to multiple religious movements, was prone to superstition and visionary experiences, including treasure digging with seer stones (see D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View). This raises legitimate questions about his reliability as a witness. He was called a "wicked man" by God D&C 3 after losing the 116 pages. He claimed he had more revelations than Joseph Smith ever did and sought to be a leader in the Strangite movement. 2. David Whitmer: In An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer claims that Joseph Smith fell into error, undermining his earlier testimonies. Ignoring these contradictions affects the credibility of his witness. 3. Oliver Cowdery: According to G. J. Keen's affidavit (dated April 14, 1885), Cowdery admitted being "sorry and ashamed of his connection with Mormonism" and sought forgiveness from a Methodist congregation in Tiffin, Ohio. Keen states: "We then inquired of him if he had any objection to making a public recantation. He replied that he had objections; that, in the first place, it could do no good; that he had known several to do so and they always regretted it. And, in the second place, it would have a tendency to draw public attention, invite criticism, and bring him into contempt. But, said he, nevertheless, if the church require it, I will submit to it, but I authorize and desire you and the church to publish and make known my recantation. We did not demand it, but submitted his name to the church, and he was unanimously admitted a member thereof. At that time he arose and addressed the audience present, admitted his error and implored forgiveness, and said he was sorry and ashamed of his connection with Mormonism." Additionally, a poem published in the newspaper Times and Seasons in 1841 states: "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver!" These suggest Cowdery may have renounced his earlier testimonies, casting doubt on his steadfastness. 4. Witnesses Supporting James Strang: After Joseph Smith's death, two of the remaining three witnesses supported James Strang, who also produced purported ancient plates and witnesses. Even Joseph Smith's own family members, including his mother Lucy Mack Smith, supported Strang. This indicates that the witnesses were willing to endorse other leaders with similar claims, which questions the uniqueness of their testimonies. 5. Conflict of Interest and Lack of Independent Verification: Most witnesses were closely related by blood or marriage to Joseph Smith or the Whitmers. The lack of original signatures-all statements are in Cowdery's handwriting-raises valid concerns about the authenticity and objectivity of these testimonies. 6. Comparison to Strang's Witnesses: The Strangite movement had witnesses who testified of seeing and handling ancient plates, yet their movement didn't last. This comparison highlights that sincere testimonies don't necessarily equate to authentic events. Critically examining these issues isn't an attack on faith but an attempt to understand historical claims objectively. It's important to acknowledge these complexities rather than dismissing them.

I see how this works. The goal is to create enough content with the name CES to bury the original CES letter in hopes people don't find it or to inoculate them before they do.

Awesome video as always!!!

Definitely age is a cultural thing. My Lebanese grandmother was placed in an arranged marriage at the age of 12 to a man in his 40s!!! This was in Canada in 1903. So it definitely was a different time in terms of marriageable age even in the early 20th century!!!

What a great video!!!

I'd recommend researching the Younger Dryas Impact Theory. There is geological evidence for a cataclysmic flood, starting with a meteor hitting North America, which was covered in 2-3 miles of ice during the Younger Dryas, which threw enough water into the atmosphere to cause sea levels to rise and to create rain and flooding throughout the world. We also see evidence of a flood in pretty much any ancient culture: Maya, Aztec, Hopi, Cree, Inca, China, Hindu, Aboriginal, Norse, aside from Israel, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. So there was something that happened, and though we don't have all the details, I lean towards believing the ancients since they all tell a version of the same story, and science has been slowly catching up to match what they said.

If we choose to look at the historical data we have, we have to say that Joseph didn’t ordain all black men, since there were other black men who were members in Nauvoo who were not ordained. There were statements from Jospeh about the curse of Cain being associated with Priesthood restriction. So let’s not cherry pick our sources.

I know I'm late to the party, but you guys need to up your audio game. In an audio only format, this type of audio is unnacceptable

There were several black men (baptized members) in Nauvoo that were not ordained to the priesthood when Joseph smith was alive and well. So it is not clear that Brigham started it and Joseph didn’t. Let’s use all the data please. This doesn’t answer however, whether it was of God or not but to me it keeps the door open that this isn’t clear in Josephs day and it all is pinned on President Young.

What a thing it is for KZbin to say there are four comments on this video when I can find only two… Ironically, you seem to think anti-intellectualism is “bad scholarship”. Making a podcast about anti-intellectualism without understanding what it means is as bad scholarship as the CES letter can be construed to be. Academia is the honest attempt to reduce tensions between facts, not living with them. Silly Steve.

Yeah, no offense, but even though we don’t know lots about polygamy, we know more than we think we do. We’ve got to confront the hard stuff and maybe put down the Muhlestein “assume the church is true” lens so we can see the data for what is it in some of these instances. Apologetics hardly ever lead to truth. Sure, be ok with what we don’t know, but don’t twist and contort what we do know so it can fit your world view either.

If it is true then it should stand up to scrutiny. The answers are out there they may just not be the answers that you were hoping for.

D&C 132:54 & 55 has been really helpful for me coming to understand polygamy and be able to explain it better to investigators. Use it ❤

This episode really brought out the trolls in the comments section. People really seem to struggle with epistemic humility.

Joseph Smith wasnt polygamous

“Truth seeking is a process that requires patience and unflagging persistence.” But once you find truth will you ignore it if it doesn’t fit with your narrative? Once you find truth, you need to let go of what’s false. And it is absolutely true that Joseph Smith exhibited predatory behavior in his proposals to underage girls. If you say no to me, then the angel will smite me with a drawn sword. You believe I’m the prophet, don’t you? This will ensure your family’s exaltation.

I know that marrying 14 year olds is wrong even if Joseph never had sex with Helen Mar Kimball. And if he didn’t, I bet Brigham Young did have sex with his 13 year old “wife.” You can keep Jesus in your life and reject polygamy.

lol I've heard Steven Harper's personal anecdotes so many times I can pretty much say what he's going to say about any topic before he talks. We know you had this experience with this forged document. What about ALL the VALID history? Just ignore it. We can't know just like we couldn't know about the forgery. Ok. Just be ok with limbo, forever. Ignore what we do know, because even that we don't know. This is the state of LDS apologetics. It's shifted from we know, to maybe we know, to ok there's problems don't learn more, to ignore the evidence of what we do know. "Think slow" - he keeps referencing "thinking fast and slow" the book from nobel prize winning Kahneman. What Steven doesn't ever mention is how this book and his research points to exactly opposite of what Steven claims. Be skeptical of your base assumptions. Know that your primary and secondary modes of thinking are heavily influenced by outside factors. I'd highly encourage anyone to read this book and see if Steven is using this "think slow" in the correct context to confirm cognitive dissonance OR to question the underlying assumptions that form the basis of all your thinking. The church and being raised in it is exactly the undermining of cognitive loading I have ever experienced or will experience. The book is almost explicitly at points calling out religion in general for this hijacking of brain one and brain two.

useless video

oh, yes everybody's heard of the ces letter... lol no they haven't, but thanks I'll try to share it more

lol, at any moment we could get the evidence that would would support the church's case.... ok I'll wait....

lol, people who are disturbed by more than one vision or whatever... that's a big whatever, let me give a few things that ARE IN MY WHATEVER. Masonry in the temple, Joseph and his lying and cheating and child brides, BOM not containing anything that we consider as the restored gospel, current church dealings with money and shame. I could go on.