I am a former UX designer with over a decade of experience. Transitioning to the XR space has been the most challenging shift in my career, largely due to the lack of tools specifically tailored for this field. To address this gap, I began learning 3D graphics and quickly realized that mastering a tool specifically designed for creating immersive experiences was essential. I chose Unity as my 3D engine due to its widespread adoption across various platforms. Unity’s use of C#, a modern and accessible programming language, made it an ideal choice for me compared to C++, which powers other engines like Unreal. Additionally, I wanted to avoid node-based systems like Unreal Engine’s Blueprints. While effective for material creation, they can be less efficient for broader coding tasks and are deeply integrated into Unreal’s workflow, even when working in C++. This further solidified my decision to focus on Unity. Tools like Bezi and Shapes can be useful for creating rough layouts, but they are inadequate for XR development or prototyping. XR projects demand highly specific interactions that often require custom design and coding. As a result, having the ability to code within a game engine is critical. This realization led me to pursue coding as a Full-Stack Unity Developer through an intensive learning process-a journey that is still ongoing. Many quick-start XR courses claim to offer an easy entry into the field, but they often provide only a superficial understanding, leaving students unprepared for the complexities of the work. In XR, purely design-focused roles-similar to Figma or Bezi-based workflows in web design-are insufficient. This medium is far more complex, requiring both design and technical expertise. Hybrid roles, such as Design Technologist or Design Prototyper, are crucial for creating immersive experiences. These roles demand a deep understanding of both design and technology, much like the role of a Creative Technologist in game development. XR professionals must be capable of designing with code to bring their ideas to life. I firmly believe that succeeding in XR design requires more than a basic understanding of game engines. Designers need advanced technical proficiency to avoid becoming bottlenecks in the creative process, enabling them to prototype and test ideas efficiently. Oleg Frolov’s work is a prime example of this vision in action. He creates exceptional XR prototypes that demonstrate how deeply integrated design and technical expertise can produce groundbreaking results. Achieving this level of quality is nearly impossible with the traditional workflow, where designers create concepts far removed from the actual platform. The sheer amount of communication required between designers and developers in such a setup makes it unfeasible for XR.
@ninjarobotstudiollc2 күн бұрын
Which tool is your favorite? Why? Did I miss anything? LMK in the comments.
@rushipathare11019 сағат бұрын
Hey, i am new to this field was searching some content around it and found your channel, this video was helpful , I am thinking about learning unity, and one easy tool with it, do recommend
@sheldonbrathwaite214911 күн бұрын
Thanks am building at the moment and this was a very helpful thread thank you.
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 күн бұрын
Very welcome
@euniceli8403Ай бұрын
heyyy. thanks for sharing the video. very insightful. I am wondering do you perhaps have citations for your published works? thanks!
@ninjarobotstudiollcАй бұрын
Check the description for links to articles and references. Also, a lot of this advice is from usability research I did myself. Any research done by others is listed in the links.
@sunlord75Ай бұрын
Thanks for making this video. I'm in the middle of transitioning myself to traditional flat to the world of XR. Can you share to me some online community in any case that I'm ready to share my future works? Thanks!
@ninjarobotstudiollcАй бұрын
You're welcome, and welcome to the community. Dan has a thriving community in Discord. You can find the link in this KZbin channel www.youtube.com/@XRDesign
@ninjarobotstudiollc3 ай бұрын
CORRECTION/UPDATE: Bezi testing doesn't work on Cardboard for iOS that I've been able to get to work since support for Cardboard is dropping rapidly. You can still try out existing experiences that are available, but even that has been dropping lately. You may be able to prototype with Android, but I don't have an Android phone so I can verify that. If you have an Android and want to test it, let me know here whether or not it works.
@ninjarobotstudiollc4 ай бұрын
What are your burning questions about interacting with digital space in XR? Let me know in the comments.
@ninjarobotstudiollc5 ай бұрын
What are your burning questions around input methods for XR? What's your favorite input method you've tried so far? I'm definitely eyeing that new art pen that's coming out soon.
@djumeau5 ай бұрын
Great overview! 💜💜💜
@ninjarobotstudiollc5 ай бұрын
Thanks :) Glad it was helpful.
@Design_sphere5 ай бұрын
Thank you for this. Love your content ❤
@ninjarobotstudiollc5 ай бұрын
Glad it's helpful :)
@evelinefalcao12865 ай бұрын
Thank you. These are solid advices
@ninjarobotstudiollc5 ай бұрын
Glad it was helpful!
@joshuabirdine88646 ай бұрын
Thank you for this video, and your insight. Helped clear some things up on my path. Watching your udemy courses now.
@ninjarobotstudiollc6 ай бұрын
Great to hear!
@Vicky-ym3dp6 ай бұрын
Is coding required to get into the XR design field, or can I become an XR designer without coding knowledge?
@ninjarobotstudiollc6 ай бұрын
It depends on the type of job you want and the company you want to work with. I personally don't know any code. You can use tools like Unity without deeper coding knowledge. Check out this short for instructions on assessing your current skills. kzbin.infoEe8mxPwkCQI?feature=share Then follow the instructions and use this XR UX Skills Assessment Workbook to figure out where you want to start your focus www.figma.com/community/file/1301258709466814611/xr-ux-designer-skills-assessment
@Vicky-ym3dp6 ай бұрын
@@ninjarobotstudiollc Thanks for the reply. What kind of freelancing can we do in the field of XR designing?
@ninjarobotstudiollc6 ай бұрын
@@Vicky-ym3dp It all depends on your network and your ability to put your work out there for people to see. If you convince people of your value by getting involved in the XR community, people will approach you for opportunities. You could also try agencies like mine, which is Aquent LLC. That's actually how I get a lot of work.
@pragyasachdeva6187 ай бұрын
Amazing,
@pragyasachdeva6187 ай бұрын
Even though content seems okay(general guidelines not deep knowledge), the background noise is over powering your voice
@ninjarobotstudiollc7 ай бұрын
You mean the music? Sorry about that. This is one of my older videos. My editing skills have improved since then and the newer videos have a better balance. Regarding content, this was meant to be a high level pass with future content going more in depth. I'm also currently working on a VR Training on-demand course that will go into my processes. It's still very much in the works.
@ashishraju55467 ай бұрын
Hey, I loved your views. I am UX Designer from India with 5 years experience. I have already reached the point where I feel saturated. So, I have decided to learn XR design and I felt that it can give better experience than any other device so i started learning and designed few prototypes using figma. I want to get into XR industry as a XR designer as am based out of India there are very minimal chances so can you help how i can get into industry in any part of the world ?
@ninjarobotstudiollc6 ай бұрын
Nice to meet you. I'm so glad you've found the video insightful. I'm not a professional career coach, so I can only share my observations. From what I've seen, regardless of the country (XR is an international community) you need to experiment in XR and put your work out there, and get involved in that international community. Just working on ideas in Figma isn't enough to help you grasp all of the nuances of the XR digital 360 space. There is much to learn by getting out of 2D tools and into 3D. Bezi is a free tool you could experiment with and use with a cardboard headset if budget is an issue. Speaking of Bezi, they're getting ready to run a design competition that will be judged by people from some well-known XR companies. I can't stress enough how important it is to get involved in the community and put your work out there. I wish you luck. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZvMkpKfrc2chKMsi=yyMnAzNiwtuVubtj
@tanmayghodekar7 ай бұрын
I feel there should exist a compilation of guidelines and considerations that should be thought of, before designers start designing any XR product. I have attempted to develop such a document, and it'd be great if you could review it. I believe it'll be very helpful for other designers who are struggling or want to get started in XR design.
@ninjarobotstudiollc7 ай бұрын
I agree that there needs to be! I've been working on general UX best practices for XR myself for years and published the UX for XR Toolkit if you haven't checked that out. It is very high level, but I'm working on going more in-depth in the future with professional resources for actual project work. pintsizedrobotninja.com If you'd like me to review your work, I have set up office hours for people in half hour and one hour sessions. You can check out that info at xrpatterns.pintsizedrobotninja.com/services
@AndreaMoreno-ij8oy7 ай бұрын
Thank you for your contribution!! Good channel! Do you have any examples of XR UX designer portfolios?
@ninjarobotstudiollc7 ай бұрын
I'm very glad the content is useful :) I don't personally have good example. My own work is all under NDA so I can't show anything. Since I'm not actively looking for a job, it's not an issue for me, but it would possibly be if I were of course. I emphasize sharing your work on social media in this video, but at some point, you will need some kind of portfolio for interviews unless you already know the people. This is a good video from Joe Natoli. Even though it's focused on general UX, it's relevant for anyone in any industry. kzbin.info0NAVj2h5P7U?feature=share
@AndreaMoreno-ij8oy7 ай бұрын
@@ninjarobotstudiollc Thank you for your recommendation and the great content you share! 😁
@ninjarobotstudiollc7 ай бұрын
What are you struggling with the most around XR UX Design? LMK
@canvasv7 ай бұрын
THANKS FOR THE VIDEOOOOOOOOOOOOO 😍
@ninjarobotstudiollc7 ай бұрын
No problem 😊
@ninjarobotstudiollc8 ай бұрын
If you need a more structured approach to your learning, take my free tutorial course on Udemy. www.udemy.com/course/xruximmersion/
@captainkaigaming44178 ай бұрын
I am college currently in last year of computer science engineering and I have designed website and apps and I have not polished my portfolio or my projects because I'm learning so many new things and I don't want to maximize the time on learning so I wanted to ask you that I have experience with blender I also have used unity to make a game for college project and I have designed websites and apps using figma will I be able to get into any company in next 3-6 months if I work on XR design without any formal course??
@ninjarobotstudiollc8 ай бұрын
It looks like you're kind of scattered in what it is you want to do with your career? I'm guessing you also don't want to spend any more money than you already have, which was probably a ton. Without knowing enough about your situation and background, I can only give a general recommendation based on what I did in the past. Even though it doesn't feel like it, you have a hopefully long life ahead of you and plenty of time to figure things out while you work. So, I would recommend focusing your portfolio on getting a job that your computer science engineering degree will help you get. Then while you're working and earning money to make a living for yourself, work on the side to learn XR Design. You don't have to spend a ton of money on classes, but it's not going to be quick or easy. You have to put in the work and share your work. There are no shortcuts unless you personally know someone already in the industry that's willing to give you chance. Also, join an XR community to get advice and help from other people in the industry. Here are some links to videos to give you more advice. The link to Dan's Discord is in his video show notes. Dan's video kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooGWl3mCgpaca9U My response kzbin.info/www/bejne/hITOaHqEmauHl9Esi=W57CIUVkmSSjz8zM Here are some general portfolio and resume advice videos from Joe Natoli. Even though they're specifically for UX, the advice holds for any job in any industry. Resumes kzbin.infoxbV6ltl3LR0?si=EZIenDCGfKwTJcw1 Portfolios kzbin.info8Sel4wJOgA0?si=Zk7YZTzPwbe9Lrux
@captainkaigaming44178 ай бұрын
I am college currently in last year of computer science engineering and I have designed website and apps and I have not polished my portfolio or my projects because I'm learning so many new things and I don't want to maximize the time on learning so I wanted to ask you that I have experience with blender I also have used unity to make a game for college project and I have designed websites and apps using figma will I be able to get into any company in next 3-6 months if I work on XR design without any formal course??
@ninjarobotstudiollc8 ай бұрын
I see you posted this on 2 videos. I'm responding on the other one. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpKtd2R4rJmpitE
@ninjarobotstudiollc8 ай бұрын
Grab a copy of the free Skills Assessment Workbook here XR UX Skills Assessment Workbook www.figma.com/community/file/1301258709466814611/xr-ux-designer-skills-assessment What are your burning questions about XR UX Design?
@ninjarobotstudiollc8 ай бұрын
Have you tried the AVP accessibility features? Do you have an Apple Vision Pro with the inserts or contacts? How's it working out for you? Let me know right here.
@xr.melissa8 ай бұрын
Love it! Definitely needed more guidelines on this when I first started, so glad to see a resource like this! 😄
@ninjarobotstudiollc8 ай бұрын
Yeah, I wish there had been stuff out there like this when I started :)
@ninjarobotstudiollc8 ай бұрын
What are your questions around XR UX design? Let me know here in the comments. If you prefer a structured approach to learning, check out my free Visibility and Legibility tutorial on Udemy at www.udemy.com/course/xruxfoundations-visibility/
@The_Foreman9 ай бұрын
Just lemme use the joystick, teleportation makes me sick.
@ninjarobotstudiollc9 ай бұрын
Giving people options and letting them choose for themselves is a good option whenever possible
@azarovavictoria9 ай бұрын
Build a portfolio 😅
@interactivebeemedia10 ай бұрын
This is such a good video for those getting into XR. Such solid advice. Love this video! The hardest part is trying to decide (because of financial and time investment) on the headset and its compatibility with your computer's operating system. Without knowing how a particular device makes us or others feel, it becomes difficult to improve the experience and our work. It's all about having fun learning and pushing the envelope on that headset's features to make inclusive and enhanced creative experiences.
@ninjarobotstudiollc9 ай бұрын
Thanks, Bee :) And you're right. You can't create an effective experience without testing it in the headset and knowing the strengths and limitations of the headset you're targeting.
@sonjamir775110 ай бұрын
I am considering a career change and XR seems so amazing and interesting. Are there opportunities for newbie juniors (since experience in ux is mentioned)? How developed is the job market?
@ninjarobotstudiollc10 ай бұрын
It depends on how much experience you already have in the UX field. Also, it depends on how hard you work to put yourself out there and network. I've never gotten a job ever with cold applications. And there are XR jobs, they're just not all made public. That's why you need to network. Here's my free Udemy course if you want to know more about transitioning from 2D UX to XR UX design www.udemy.com/course/transitioningxrux/
@nissrinnissrin503910 ай бұрын
thank you so mush it's was a great video i learnt a lot about the most important points i should focus on
@ninjarobotstudiollc10 ай бұрын
You're so welcome!
@Anivesh2710 ай бұрын
Thanks for creating such amazing content! 🙌🙌 I just signed up for the course.👍👍
@ninjarobotstudiollc10 ай бұрын
Awesome! Thank you!
@xr.melissa10 ай бұрын
Is this in relation to that Tesla Apple Vision Pro demo, perhaps? 😉
@ninjarobotstudiollc10 ай бұрын
That and a whole bunch of Dribbble posts :)
@ninjarobotstudiollc10 ай бұрын
What are your questions around XR UX design? Let me know here in the comments. If you prefer a structured approach to learning, check out my free Human Factors tutorial on Udemy at www.udemy.com/course/xruxhumanfactors/
@ninjarobotstudiollc10 ай бұрын
What's your biggest struggle with getting your foot in the door in XR UX Design? LMK
@jordanpoyner44211 ай бұрын
Only thing I'm struggling with is seeing if I can break into the industry without a CS degree (seems very math oriented) or can I do all of this self-taught and with courses & professional college certificates. Other than that, I want to give this a try. Edit: I finally got to the section talking about certificates don't mean shit, your work speaks for itself. So glad I didn't take out a loan to get into this professional certificate program lol.
@ninjarobotstudiollc10 ай бұрын
You can get certified in software like Unity, but certificates for completion don’t mean anything. And the “certified XR designer” designation doesn’t exist. There’s no formal certification for that - not like architecture or interior design. Not in the US anyway. Glad I could save you some money.
@tonyK_7211 ай бұрын
OMG you're awesome. This video is so useful and couldn't be more timely. Thank you so much this has really helped me, A LOT! thank you, thank you, thank you.
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Wow, that’s awesome. I’m really glad:) What other questions do you have?
@PranavKumar-t9t11 ай бұрын
Hello, I am a student of XR Design at a School of Design in India. I just came across this channel and I am absolutely blown away by the quality of the content available. I wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting in so much effort into sharing your knowledge. This is by far one of the most amazing resources I have found. We are a group of 26 Designers and we are part of the first design programme in India. I will be sharing your channel with my batch and I am sure it will help all of us a ton. Thank you so much once again for these videos. Please keep them coming
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
I’m glad you’ve found the channel and that it’s been useful :) Thank you for the encouragement and good luck with your studies. Let me know what questions y’all have as well. I can make more content to answer those questions.
@AndresTheDesigner11 ай бұрын
This will be a 500K+ (likely more) YT channel. Phenomenal storytelling. Jam-packed with value. So good.
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Wow, thanks for the encouragement. I really appreciate it.
@WhitneyHess11 ай бұрын
I’m soooo grateful to be included in this video, and to have the honor of being part of your journey. You have designed a beautiful life full of passion and give so much to the world. Thank you!
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Thank you for being a part of my journey :)
@akxhit11 ай бұрын
Can you please link the post
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Here you go www.linkedin.com/posts/dineshpunni_doing-the-thing-asking-for-tips-you-only-activity-7100401960297578496-OmFD?
@NeroPop11 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for this video!! Super interesting things discussed
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
You’re welcome! I’m glad it was useful :)
@thatkirsten11 ай бұрын
This is so helpful - love your perspective. Appreciate you so much!
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Hey, Kirsten :) It's great to hear from you :) I'm glad it's useful.
@elijahclaude341311 ай бұрын
Oh, and to call out specific skills I think people should look to foster as an XR Designer, here's my own list: - Strong writing and verbal communication skills --- able to communicate complex ideas through engaging yet succinct descriptions - Immersive Storytelling abilities/interest --- able to (learn how to) write a script or storyboard for an XR experience - Aptitude for spatialized thinking --- able to visualize, explain, and/or depict spatial concepts - Cross-departmental communication skills --- able to work with developers, artists, project managers, clients, end-users, etc and communicate on their level - XR hardware familiarity --- able to troubleshoot, demonstrate, and communicate the limitations/advantages of different XR hardware - Strong user-centered design principles --- able to communicate the value of user-centricity and imbue it into every part of the design/development process - Accessibility advocacy --- able to transfer known accessibility standards, and discover XR-centric standards to every project Then you have your tool-based skills which are fairly easy to pick up, such as proficiency with Confluence or some other wiki-like tool for documentation, as well as Figma/Adobe/etc for UI, and whatever you use for user flows and presentations. Finally, ability to use/learn some tool for visualizing XR concepts, like ShapesXR or I guess Bezi. I think XR Design is a fairly generalist discipline. Though I do think 3D design skills or Unity skills could of course be helpful, I think any job that requires that of you is going to be less about the actual UX design aspect, and more about the art or dev implementation of whatever design is decided upon. The reality is that coding and 3D design are their own disciplines. They only really cross-over to UX XR design tangentially. I'd personally hire a (real) UX designer (ie not one who is actually UI designer), over a 3D artist or developer to train into an XR designer.
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Awesome feedback, and I agree. UX is a different hat that needs to separate itself from the distraction of the polish and code. Sometimes you have to wear multiple hats, but it's pretty hard to do and one thing or the other will end up suffering because of it. It comes with experience.
@designtechi11 ай бұрын
I was just facing this topic this morning. Much of what I see for desirable XR design jobs are more pushing for XR prototyping - so outright programming - with familiarity with design. This is an entirely different discipline and not even the only other skillset they ask so even though I am a generalist and spend alll my time upskilling, seeing mostly developer-designer roles isn't great when you specifically want to design and strategize. Great comment!
@elijahclaude341311 ай бұрын
@@designtechi I haven't been looking at job listings, but I can imagine why that would be the case. Unfortunately, many companies have never been particularly UX-friendly in the first place. Often looking for pretty products rather than actual user centricity. Doesn't surprise me that they would do the same for XR design as well. Hopefully one can convince them though by showing the benefits of really solving problems rather than just prototyping. Wishing you all the luck in finding your ideal role!
@designtechi11 ай бұрын
@@elijahclaude3413 I really appreciate your helpful insights! If its okay, I reached out on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear more about your work something - I thought your comments on this vid was a treasure trove! Either way, thanks again!
@elijahclaude341311 ай бұрын
@@designtechi Thanks for the kind words! Definitely would be happy to connect. I havent been active there either, but probably will be in the year to come.
@elijahclaude341311 ай бұрын
This is interesting to see!! I've been in this space for like 2 and half years now and my own experience is fairly different than either of yours. For me, I've kind of crafted my own unique space as an XR designer that is more focused on the storyboarding side, since the (small) company I work for creates mostly training simulations for large clients. Further, my own background does not come from UX. I stumbled/carved my way into this field thanks to my passion for emergent technology (same as you there), but primarily through my job working at a VR arcade, where I got to play dozens of XR games PLUS see thousands of people actually engaging with those games. I'm with you on the UX for XR thing too. I don't even use 3D software much at all. We have 3D artists specifically for that, as well as Unity devs on the programming side, but none of them know much, if anything, about UX or storytelling. I find that a Huge missing piece in (t)his video is the importance of storytelling for XR design. Being able to tell stories in an immersive space is So different than any other type of design. I've found myself learning from movie directors, video game level design, urban planning, L&D, and fiction writing in addition to UX principles. But yeah, definitely need to be able to solve problems. But even that comes down to creating/finding a process that allows you to do so consistently and rigorously. And the dude is kinda toxic, indeed you need rest. And no company should demand you to work so much when at the end of the day, they will drop you as soon as it becomes financially expedient. If they want you to work so much, even if you are getting paid, they almost certainly dont care for your mental/physical health. I work a 9-5, very very occasionally we may have a bit of 'crunch' time, but we do our best to avoid it, and its always fairly optional. Spending time outside of work just doing stuff you enjoy is different, though and can help you grow as a person. No need to mistake one for the other. However, I do need to share my work online more! That's something I've been slacking on a lot! But I got plans for that. Thanks for this channel!! Interviewing all those years ago and seeing your growth has been incredibly inspiring and motivating.
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Elijah! I've missed you :) Want to get together and talk about this on stream one Thursday?
@elijahclaude341311 ай бұрын
@@ninjarobotstudiollc I missed you too!! Sorry I kind of had my head down a lot this past year. Definitely would love to talk soon, on a stream or whatever!!
@ninjarobotstudiollc11 ай бұрын
Do you have a different take on this? What were your aha moments? What are your burning questions around XR UX design? Let me know here in the comments. Time for a change: (0:24) Building my own future: (1:32) Accessible XR Tools: (4:20) XR Companies: (5:45) Big Tech Skills: (6:40) Startup Skills: (8:14) XR UX Skills Assessment: (9:17) Hunger to learn: (9:28) Different design hats: (11:13) XR Design Principles: (13:20) Think in 3D: (14:03) Spend time wisely: (15:33) Certificates don’t matter: (16:41) Share your experiments: (18:48) Join an XR Community: (20:01) Advice about trolls: (21:07) Learn more: (22:13)
@ninjarobotstudiollc Жыл бұрын
What was your aha moment about this video?
@AlfredoBlandonV10 ай бұрын
How huge of a pain is it to work with a Macbook Pro and a Quest 3? It'd be great if you could create more in-depth content about that. Thanks you for your amazing content!
@ninjarobotstudiollc9 ай бұрын
I have watched many students struggle for months just trying to get Unity to work on their MacBook, even with experienced support helping them. They haven't even gotten to the design yet, which also adds a lot of pain. Of course, if you're going for Apple Vision Pro, you'll need the Mac. Yeah, I may demonstrate or explain more in a future video.
@interactivebeemedia9 ай бұрын
@@AlfredoBlandonV Hi Alfredo, I use a MacbookPro with the M2 chip and Quest 2. When designing on a Mac with Unity, it takes quite a few minutes to test your work, whereas when using a PC, it's instantaneous. I also had to troubleshoot many compatibility errors. It's an ongoing issue for Mac users wanting to create using Meta headsets.
@ninjarobotstudiollc Жыл бұрын
What's overwhelming you in your XR UX design journey? Let me know here and I may create a video about it in the future.
@danm6189 Жыл бұрын
Really glad to find your channel, great vid :) One thing I've been playing with in experiments is understanding arm length - might need calibration - and project ray / virtual hand as you reach out towards objects. I kind of like having more movement in interactions as people are designed to move but it's a good point that it can be less efficient. I love your point about challenging yourself and not settling for floating a bounded 2d dialog in space, it just seems the default in most experiences and missing the opportunity. Gonna check out your other vids, thanks!
@ninjarobotstudiollc Жыл бұрын
Awesome! I'm so glad you're enjoying the videos :) Feel free to comment with your questions as well. I can't code, but I can talk experience.