There's no reason for Karen to trust Amy at that point

@someguy9164 yes, but if you don't even HINT that there is a minstrel it just hurts town.

Coz she crazy!

It feels like a -1 outsider might be a good idea

There are scripts that have that, e.g. two evil teams of one imp and one poisoner, I have seen some games of that on KZbin, but forget who use to play them.

@@TorIverWilhelmsen oh cool, I'll keep an eye out for them, most of the games I've watched are serious and low on shenanigans, only really only started watching what patters does with the Amnesiac for example.

If you look up Blood on the Clocktower Turf Wars you can see this in action

@@Talkie_Toaster games like this have been played by ‘The Grimoire’ channel

If there is already an extra evil player and the Fang Gu tries to kill a good Outsider with a Spirit of Ivory in play, the good Outsider just dies (no jump occurs). If the target cannot become an evil Fang Gu, they don't become anything. That's my understanding of the rules but, even if you could make a literal interpretation otherwise, remember that a) Clocktower is a little fuzzy on some of its rules interactions and b) the Storyteller is there to prioritise fun and can choose the interpretation that keeps the game fun for all involved. I would never rule that a Summoner involves creating an 'extra' evil player, merely that it delays the evil team coming up to a full complement - again, I can understand a literal interpretation otherwise, but are your players going to enjoy that ruling? As long as your players know they can get a clear answer from you if they ask, you can just do the common-sense thing as a Storyteller. The Spirit of Ivory is on this script to prevent there from being *two* more evils than the base number, and if you are worried that your players might not be sure about that, you can just tell them.

@@GeorgeAnkers is that the official ruling? Or is that just a custom ruling for this script?

As I said, that's my understanding of how the Fang Gu works in general.

@@GeorgeAnkers ah, the comment didn't fully load and I didn't see the "read more" until you mentioned something because the first paragraph perfectly ended before the "read more"

Understandable! KZbin is a bad place to read. :D

When he was revealing his Savant information 55 minutes in, I only had eyes for Alex and Jams' reactions. No idea what anyone else thought.

So, a few points on this, as someone who wasn't in this game but appears on these streams often. Firstly, I don't think Patters played for chaos here. His token was one where you need to commit to presenting as a townsfolk you are not, and with a Leviathan in play you can't really afford to break madness because you risk losing the game. Savant is a risky townsfolk to bluff as, but can be very useful for helping push narratives if you strongly suspect certain people are good/evil for social reasons rather than mechanical ones. Patters even says "I might be in too deep" and "I might be doing more harm than good", so he knows the risk, but he's not trying to actively work against his own team in this game, he was just committed to his bluff in his role as an outsider, and outsiders are meant to be detrimental to the good team. Secondly, this was a silly, chaotic game from the start. It seems daft to complain about someone being too chaotic in a *Leviathan And No Dashii game*. Thirdly, Patters is one of the most fun people to play with, be that as a player or storyteller, good or evil. He gets invested in the games; allows room for other players to talk while also ensuring he gets to make his own points; doesn't make players feel bad for their actions, even if he's annoyed with things they've done; and makes you have a good time even when he's doing things that seem unhelpful. His plays don't always work out, but he's always doing them to attempt to accomplish something, not because he just feels like being "lol random" or whatever. Lastly, and most importantly, a quick reminder that players read these comments. Try to be kind, because if I was Patters I wouldn't have wanted to read that.

If he had broken madness, it would have lost good the game. Granted I think he took it a little far, but ey it was fun, but we the audience had the benefit of seeing the grim, for all Patters knew, Alex was evil with the clockmaker 1, and he was stealing a bluff off the evil team given there was a pair of players up the top that was alive. I'm **sure** had the game survived past the levithan cut-off, he would have come clean.

That was 100% him working against his team. Way more than would be necessary to maintain mutant madness

Patters is chaos incarnate. That is all.

@@Steev42intentional self sabotage just is not fun viewing.

There are multiple valid reasons to bluff an info role as a Mutant. Firstly, it is easier to 'sell' that you're a townsfolk if you're providing info, because it allows you to actively contribute to the game more. Just going "um yeah I'm a Farmer" or whatever is tougher to be convincing with, and if town start building worlds where you're an outsider then you can get put in a very rough spot, especially in a Leviathan game. Secondly, and conversely to the first point, if your information is provably false then it can signal to town that you're the Mutant while still allowing you to 'present' as town. And thirdly, and for me most importantly, if you're a more social player than a mechanical one (which Patters *absolutely* is), you can use the information you're saying to provide 'reasons' for town to pursue the worlds you want to pursue. You think this person is lying? Make up info framing it! I love bluffing Savant as Mutant, to the point where I don't do it anymore because it's a 'tell'. And it's certainly not intentional self-sabotage.

@@jameswaumsley7701 why would town automatically think a more passive role is an outsider? That feels like such a stretch. And keeping the savant bluff was extra rough because it worked against the actual savant who had mostly good info.

@@RaucousTiger it's not that town would think a more passive role is an outsider. It's that, as a player, it's harder for you to be mad that you're not one if you don't have an argument to push back on. Patters was never in danger of being executed for breaking Mutant madness because he was actively claiming to be a townsfolk. Keeping the Savant bluff was pretty mandatory. He couldn't risk getting executed, and there was no easy pivot for him to make without seeming like the Mutant. I don't think maintaining it was as detrimental as you're making it out to be - firstly because we know people were speculating Patters could be the Mutant by the end of the game (we heard it in a conversation); secondly because it told Patters Alex was good, and he was able to actively push people away from nominating/executing Alex in the final two days; and thirdly because Alex's info was poisoned for the first two days. You say it was extra rough because it worked against the actual Savant info, but the Savant info said that one of Math and Fish was a bluff. Then on day 4, with both the people claiming those roles dead, that there was one dead evil player. If they'd trusted Alex's info they'd have been even more sure than Daniel was evil and Lorinda was lying than they were with Patters muddying it! At the very least, I don't think it's remotely fair to how Patters played that game to call it intentional self-sabotage.