risk of rain 2 is inconsistent because one run ill have a scrapper on every stage and the next ill get fucking 0 of the pricks and be left with 7 bungus, 3 monster tooth and an aegis

Binding of Isaac got a new update recently and your video just pop off on my YT recommend lol

I bursted out laughing when you went for Hades because I was actively thinking about how I would rank Hades myself. I do agree with your sentiment though. This being said, I hated the combat in Hades but loved the story so I created a cheesy build I went for until I had 100% (some cheesy Zeus-Dash build, which means it was 100% consistent for me). But yea, this isn't how you should play the game and I can acknowledge that.

The thing with Cursed eye you mention for TBoI is that if you get it, now your main goal is to look for black candle, black candle is the item that removes all curses, INCLUDING the cursed eye teleport downside. Its all about making the best of what you have. After I learned to not reset to get a good item and work with what I am given, the early game becomes the best part of the game as late game Isaac becomes pretty boring as you are all powered up and just clearing rooms left and right. In the end it is about how well you can do with what you have

I think this guy is just confused about Isaac, the only reason he isn’t getting good items is because he isn’t unlocking better items, and cursed eye is actually very great, as you just have to not get hit (easier than it sounds) and it can actually help you sometimes when you teleport out of a scary room. Isaac is a game about patience, and that shows when you watch a lazy Matt man or Vicfis video, where, most of the time, they start with trash items, and then near necropolis/depths/dank depths, they get op items that were really hard to unlock (e.g. rock bottom, using a character that is 2 characters and beating 30 bosses, and c section, beating the hardest boss in the game with a character that can’t shoot herself, but uses a demon guy to shoot that mimics her damage and tear effects).

Hearing the old isaac title music when is so weird

Amazing video! I do have one question though… how does the boon synergy play a part in your point?

Curse eye is straight up upgrade(you just need to have skill)

Is this a video where guy rambles on about how he doesn’t like Isaac while having barely played or understood Isaac? Help idk if I should watch this video as an Isaac fan

0:53 IT'S CALLED A FUCKING ROGUELITE. THE BERLIN INTERPRETATION IS NOT A LOOSE SET OF GUIDELINES, IT IS WHAT DEFINES A ROGUELIKE. BINDING OF ISAAC AND RISK OF RAIN 2 ARE BOTH ROGUELITES. ROGUE. LITE. IT'S CALLED "LITE" BECAUSE, AS YOU SAID, LITERALLY THE ONLY FUCKING CHARACTERISTICS SIMILAR TO THE GAME ROGUE ARE A VERY SMALL HANDFUL OF QUALITIES. ROGUELIKES ARE GAMES WHICH ARE EXTREMELY SIMILAR TO THE GAME ROGUE. THESE GAMES HAVE NEXT TO NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THE GAME ROGUE, AND IF YOU HELD THEM SIDE BY SIDE, YOU WOULD SEE ABSOLUTELY ZERO SIMILARITIES. PLEASE STOP SAYING ROGUELIKE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ROGUELITES.

I think this is the reason why I can't Connect with risk of rain 2. It's a good Game but I prefer games that focus on variable items

Such a long video, to say so little.... And you dont seem to know isaac very well...

Spiritfall does such a great job of this. As you get further along a run the more fluid and powerful you feel. The game is incredible. Also a severely underrated roguelike is Wayward Souls. First played it on mobile and this game is truly a challenge. It does something very different with different character types and abilities. The levels are smartly generated and the game truly rewards you for getting good.

Great video! I love how in depth your analysis is. I want more!!!

Isaac is the least variable game I can think of

Great video man! I love roguelites and roguelikes and your video helps me better articulate why I like some more than others. I’ll definitely be keeping variability vs consistency in the back of my mind now

See the thing is, I first played Isaac back in 2011 when a KZbinr i liked sold it to his audience as "better than Call of Duty"(dont ask it was weird times). And back then, I really didnt like it, because of the random nature, and having to reset a lot until you have a good start. Really wasnt my thing. So I thought that maybe Roguelikes weren't for me. But then Hades released and I realized no wait I actually do enjoy roguelikes, its just that roguelikes with high variability is what I really dont like, and there were a ton of roguelikes that released in the meantime that I did actually like that I could go back to (namely Dead Cells and Risk of Rain 2).

Man the mispronunciation of all the issac items and rerolling chocolate milk and complaining that hard about cursed eye hurts me

My favorite roguelike (using the same definition as you here) is Streets of Rogue, I would definitely argue it’s non-variable. You can beat the final floor with the exact same stuff you start with.

You need a better mic. But good video. Seriously though. Hard on the ears

i feel like if you need to reset over and over for a good item in isaac then thats on you the randomness of issac is what makes it fun it would be quite boring if you start with moms knife every run making the run an instant win

Keep going

you don't have fun with the beginning of isaac runs bc you keep starting over. nobody would enjoy that. the joy of a roguelike such as BoI is working with what you are given and making the best decisions based on everything you know about the game. RoR is just OK

I think this guy has a favorite child (im talking bout the rougelikes not actual children)

Between 11:36 and 11:38 He went from over 1200 health plus shield to negative 460 That’s 2 seconds, ROR2 is very painful sometimes

i know someone who beat mega satan with 3.5 damage (base damage). insane build 🔥

I legit had no idea this was your first video until i got to the very end! I think you did a great job at speaking from your experiences with the games you went over, good job!

I have a feeling that youre gonna like Noita. I recommend playing it, but dont get any kind of help from internet until you get your first win

I'm not gonna lie it sounds like you don't like isaac. You like when it goes well but not when it doesn't and it feels where you draw the line at doing well and waste of time does not line up with the way the game is designed. Their is nothing wrong with that but this essay sounds more of a video on why risk of rain and the style is better than Isaac's style when other parts of it seem to try and talk about how it's just different approaches. It talks as if it's unbiased but then also is super biased which on its own is fine but it would probably have made a better essay to just have focused on how different styles of roguelike exist and how that effects gameplay more than "I'm bad at isaac and just restart till I'm op". I don't play rain as much as my other friend group players do so I don't know it as well but it also comes off that you also could probably have been more critical of it as it seems maybe you play only a few main characters and do the same ish build each time

I haven't thought about rogulikes like this before, but now I think I will. I've never wanted to play Isaac because of how item dependant it seems, RoR2 is much more fun for me.

Tbh, if it weren't for Eclipse I don't think I'd known as much or even played as much Risk of Rain 2 as I do now. Made me appreciate some survivors more than I originally thought. Commando for example. When you're playing all the survivors its pretty easy to say that some survivors are lacking and Commando is one of those. But, in the Eclipse climb, it made me realize that Commando is just more item dependent than the others. That sounds bad ON PAPER, but the better you get at macroing items and *literally beating the RNG* (which is very possible and consistent to do in ROR2, even in Eclipse 8), the stronger Commando becomes. Suddenly, this class that I originally thought was so bad there's no point in playing him, obviously the Eclipse climb "forcing" me to play him changed that mindset entirely for being able to practice with the survivor for a good while. Its a testament to how good the basic items are in ROR2. You don't have to get the best of the green or red items to save a run. White items are incredibly strong on their own, and much of my succes in runs, no matter what survivor I'm picking, is perceiving the oppertunity to form a build. ROR2 allows you to have a build in some shape or form at the end of stage 5 w/o it being accidental. Its quite interesting in that regard.

and then there's noita best game all time game of the year every year noita sweep

in my opinion restarting in issac is personal choice i think the fun in issac is about brakeing the game with your own game knowlage and skill insted of just reseting utill you get good item i also think that even if clearing rooms with basic tears can be annoying for some people i think that beeing balanced is also fun sometimes.

This feels like a very strange way to evaluate certain criteria in a roguelike. I consider a much better and more useful evaluation to be, "What percentage of runs can a top player successfully complete, playing out every run to success or the bitter end and never resetting/scumming?" Even if a game has a huge amount of variability to it (like Isaac), that doesn't necessarily mean that the outcomes of the game have a high level of variance (case in point, almost all runs in Isaac can be completed due to the immense factor skill plays in the game, on top of mechanical awareness for how to optimize a run and when picking up certain items is a good or bad idea, and where those items can (and can't) be found). There is definitely an interesting discussion to be had about the topic you bring up in the video...but I don't think it represents what you think it represents. It is certainly a way that roguelikes differentiate themselves from each other, but it has little to do with how much a given roguelike is based on luck. It does mean that there is a greater amount of knowledge and experience necessary to bring out the full potential of a run in a game in which there are many "moving parts," though, especially if some of them have anti-synergy with items/drops you might encounter later. This can be seen extremely well during masterful play in both Isaac and Slay the Spire, for example. All of that said, if you're actually reading this, despite the fact that I largely disagree with everything you have to say about the thesis of your video, the video essay itself was extremely well-put-together. So kudos to that; it was entertaining and better than a lot of much larger channels put out. Would be interested in seeing you talk more about other things in the future.

Restarting after getting runebag is crazy

i got to 9:30 in the video an thought "well he made his point, the video is probably gonna be over soon" only to see that 30 minutes of video were still unwatched

12:30 -- i think it's helpful to note that the teleporter spawns on the opposite side of the map that you spawned on, so you can make a beeline to the opposite corner and almost always see the glowing red orbs that float in the air above it (especially with the new setting that makes those easier to see).

I bought ror2 this summer, played 10 -15 runs, only finished the game on easy, which is the diff i feel ok to play with. Got bored to this game very fast. Now I decided to give it another go by looping, I fell in LOVE with this game. It's my first rogue game, I play on easy and it's amazing that i can still die at stage 3 for MY mistakes, or go to stage 5 and the difficulty ramps up a lot, and in stage 6 - 7 you can be a god that can also be oneshot very quickly if you get distracted. My record on easy is 12th stage, I love it.

i think another important thing to mention in terms of RoR2's consistency is the existence of printers and scrappers to turn the items you dont like into the items you do like, as opposed to every other rougelike where the things you get are the things you get

the worst part about this is, i felt like ur channel was bought cause of the views. i have not watched ue vid yet but mahne ur shits tight.

So what I have learned from this video is that consistent roguelikes value skill but end up having less replay value while variable roguelikes values luck but has more replay value. It makes sense in a way. Due to luck, you will fail CONSTANTLY in variable roguelikes. but because you want to succeed, you keep retrying and thus replaying until you succeed. Variable roguelikes is like blindly running into a wall, one of those times you end up blindly running into a doorway and not a wall. People who hate losing is the perfect type of person to play variable roguelikes. people who like to strategize is the perfect type of person to play consistent roguelikes.

I haven't played Risk of Rain, so I don't know how it compares to Hades, but I find it interesting that you put it at "65%" consistency, because to me that was a bit of an issue with Hades - I like it a lot, and played... quite a bit of Hades (140 hours), but at some point I just stopped, and honestly didn't feel like coming back anymore. It's an amazing game, but I felt it's way too consistent, and it provides way more options that help you to "force" a certain build - especially the god keepsakes. You can even plan for specific duo boons, and have a relatively high chance of actually getting them also. And while you can just not use gods keepsakes the point here is the game allows you to focus builds so heavily. Arguably you are also kinda encouraged to do so, because certain weapons do really want certain boons - like how Hera aspect bow works best with Aphrodite's cast or Chiron bow works better with Dionysus or Zeus special. Meanwhile you put FTL at 80% consistent, which is higher than Hades, and yet I find it more variable, and what my run will end up being is a big question. Weapon availability is random, I may or may not get the systems I want or need, and there's no way to actually enforce it, so I will have to work with what I have available. The ships are also very variable with their gimmicks, although they do vary in their power level quite a bit - some are definitely more of a "challenge run" type of ships.

I can't believe that Returnal didn't at least get a mention.

I thought you i won't get me any more mad after watching the main part of the video, but oh boy. Gungeon being 90% variable and 10% consistent seems ridiculous to me. I might be missing your point. If by consistency you mean how much of a difference there between top highroll runs and lowest rock bottom runs (not talking about the item itself), I would have agreeed about isaac being very inconsistent. But not about the gungeon, 98% of the weapons feel strong, and passives do so little, that restarting feels a lot like a waste of time. The gun play for me is not as close to Synthetik, but close enough to feel like the more weapons you have, the more strategic becomes the game. But again, i might be missing the point here (and if so, wouldn't mind being corrected). Anyway, it was an interesting video to watch, and even tho i disagree with a lot of things you say - good job, it is good to start a disscussion you have an opinion on.

"A lot of the engagement of realtime roguelikes is that process of mastering the enemies and the rooms etc, but when you arent provided good enough items to stand a chance, this feels unfair". So, again, i can not agree with this description for 2 reasons I think might be true: 1) Not having enough good items forces to think about makes you think about what you could have done better to get more good enough items or how you can win with items you v got, which is what you are saying is the real engagement 2) On the contrary, having strong items provides lazy gameplay, because isaac becomes easier the more mechanics of this game you can ignore. Flight, spectral tears( or attacks), range and so on and so on. My point is - getting good items leads new players into a trap of thinking "i need to get good items to win", instead of thinking, how can they not lose with "bad" items.

"Inefficient time management is a better reason for a run to be doomed than taking unnecessary dmg" is such an unusual statement to me. When I think about it, in ror2 sometimes you take dmg which makes you leave whatever you are doing, just to get to a safer place on a map. Which leads to a timer increase without you yourself getting stronger, leading to a harder run. In that sence isaac and ror2 does not feel different. And when u consider that curent state of isaac rewards you for faster completion (hush stage and boss rush), they seem even more similar to me.

I think there is a lot of room for discussions from casual player pov, but consistency of the game is not one of them imo. The amount of players who can consistently winstreak isaac is so high compared to ror2, that is why your thumbnail attracted me, I was kinda confused. And the video didn't resolve my confusion, guess it is just a perspective thing.

Yeah I mean the biggest difference is probably that I can't piss on enemies in ROR2 so 2/10 game overall

9:18 rolling the choc milk while talking about needing damage up is insane and made me very angry

How is this your first ever vid it's so good