Glad you liked the video :) So, you made a conlang for a college class? What kinda class is that?!

@@karlpoppins Linguistics 101! It was my senior year and I wanted to treat myself with something fun. I've been considering making a showcase for it, but I don't really know how to even start or how to digitize the script(s) I made for it.

@@ScarabKovaire Didn't expect you could make a conlang as part of a linguistics class - thought conlanging might be looked down on among 'actual' linguists. It's really cool, though! As for making a showcase, if you at all liked the presentation style in the original showcase video I made for Kalian, you might want to check out my discussion with ParchmentLore under that comment section, where I explain how I went about putting everything together.

@@karlpoppins I read through the comments and it is helpful! Thank you for pointing me to them. I might try to throw something together at some point in the near future when work slows down a bit. Thank you very much!! Edit: The professor does conlanging as a hobby and he felt that it would be a good way to get the class to understand the basics of linguistics without using a specific real-world example as a basis. It is a pretty cool idea and I think it helped folks learn what different features of linguistics were easier by making them think about them directly. The class final was also worldbuilding for the language and I went a bit overboard on it, even recording a demo of the aforementioned hymn and attaching the link to the final. It was a really fun class.

@@ScarabKovaire To be honest, I've learned quite a lot about linguistics from my conlanging endeavors, so I see the value in it. Did you end up posting that recording anywhere?

In universe it is called "firsa", and that's what I've come to call it IRL. It's a type of long-necked lute that my dad made for me from some scraps he had left from a different instrument he made. It has 4 double courses, tuned (bottom to top) A D A D, and the bottom two courses are in octaves (like a 12-string guitar). There's also some microtonal support in key frets, to enable the use of some simplified makams (so less so like a tambur and more so like a saz).

I don't know how to draw, unfortunately, which makes it extremely difficult to present any visuals regarding my world. The idea of "conmusic" is quite intriguing to me, so I'm instead trying to put my efforts into that. I'm not sure I'm qualified enough to develop a realistic cuisine for my concultures, but it is something I'd like to work more on! Perhaps a cooking video spoken in Kalian might be due next :P

I just had an idea! I could make a cooking video in the style of Townsends or (more realistically) Tasting History. Basically read from a fictional cookbook and try to recreate a fictional recipe with "modern" ingredients.

​@@karlpoppins Yeah that would be cool, I don't think it's been done before

Glad you enjoyed this, friend! It's not a competition, though :)

@@karlpoppins Don't worry, I didn't mean it in a negative way. I haven't worked on my conlangs in a while, and this motivated me to continue working on them. So thank _you_ for making this!

@@ethangraham8183 Wait, what is the word for "you" in Indonesian?

Indeed, in fact the vocals were inspired by Bulgarian polyphony!

Immitation is the greatest form of flattery :)

I'm surprised that you hear Old Norse, since for me the most fundamental sound associated with is the pair of dental fricatives. Perhaps it might because of the heavy fricative nature of the language?

@@karlpoppins Could be! I feel that the heavy fricitives combined with the relatively large vowel inventory of 7 contributes to that vibe

I'm happy that my work inspired you - hope to see some of yours in the future :)

Really glad you enjoyed the video! That's exactly the vibe I was going for, so it's cool you picked up on it :)

I'm working on one as we're speaking! It's quite long, though, so it's taking a lot of time to record, but hopefully I'll be able to post it in August.

@@karlpoppins Great stuff, I’ll be here for it!

Hey there, compatriot :) I'm glad you enjoyed the video! To answer your last question, I've been living in the US for a decade now, and as a linguistics/language enthusiast I've always had the drive to pick up a native-like accent. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for now. Regarding Kalian plosives/affricates, in reality I should have chosen plosives as the default phonemic transcription, and note that they are almost always realised as affricates. The reason they are written as plosives in the Kalian script is simply because, as I said in the video, they might be affricates now but they were historically just a plosive series that first aspirated and then affricated. So in the mind of a Kalian speaker, these affricates are just plosives, hence why I said that phonemically they are effectively plosives. Hopefully that makes sense...

@@karlpoppins You definitely have a great accent, I also wanted to say that it was great to see the Bibliaridion influence on the intro, incredible channel. As for the transcription, I get it now. I suppose it is similar to how modern greek is sometimes transcribed using the ancient greek romanisation despite the sound changes. Ευχαριστώ!

I'll race you to the patent office xD

Haha yeah that's a thing I actually have qualifications on - unlike linguistics -_-

Haha what gave it away?! I'm Greek indeed! I'm a classically trained guitarist and composer, but with a side interest in modal musics, which I indeed first picked up from Rembetika and then by looking into Turkish Classical music. This music is supposed to be part of the musical tradition of Kalians and Celestials, two intertwined peoples in my fictional world. I based it mostly on Turkish music, with vaguely Balkan, Caucasian and central Asian influences, but also some early Western influences, too - a hodge-podge of modal musics, really.

​​@@karlpoppinsI think it's a mix of the odd time signatures, the ornamentations, and progression. They don't fit anywhere as well as Greece. But it also sounds like music from a lost civilisation, or like if another country existed between Turkey and Greece. Still, I was thinking that only a true Greek can play like this. By the way what's the time signature you used in Patio Kantaraistais? I look forward to more music and worldbuilding videos! It's a real treat

@@shane1948 Warning: this comment ended up being way longer than what I intended! Perhaps it's hard to hide the Greekness in my music, but I honestly think that at core this music isn't super Greek - at least except the performance technique. I have spent a lot of time listening to rembetiko masters, and a lot of my playing is akin to their style, especially the ornamentation techniques (as you noticed). Here's how I see each piece in this series: 1. _Fáilkastir alla_ to me sounds vaguely Anatolian, but I go for oud-style ornaments, where you move your finger around a microtone like a wide vibrato (this works only on frets that have microtonal perdes on my instrument, like on any baglama-like instrument), and that gives it a slightly different sound. I also included some minor harmonic elements (some parallel thirds, for instance), which are more indicative of Western music. The section at 1:51 is sort of inspired by my (poor) impression of Mongolian music, and there are some mild pentatonic vibes in general throughout this piece. 2. _Láufulmus fal f' ápá_ is a weird one, because I had the idea to create tonal ambiguity (switching the tonal center between B and D). I got this idea from some Arabic maqamat that seem to have two tonics, usually a higher one in a "regular sounding" place and then a lower one in a slightly weirder place. I played a lot with the pitch content when the implied tonic was D, switching from a rast-like makam to a mode that basically has a lower lydian tetrachord and an upper hicaz tetrachord. The rhythm is a straight 9/4, characteristic of both Greek and Turkish music. A lot of the phrasing is Greek-like, here (e.g. 6:47). 3. _Alpá fu musíun_ was vaguely inspired by the reconstruction of the Epitaph of Seikilos (melodically and rhythmically), but I added some I-V chords to give mild Western vibes. I think the upper tetrachord I use here is something like zirguleli hicaz, whereas the lower one is plain rast, with an emphasis on the 3rd degree - I think sort of like segah? I'm not an expert in makam theory. The piece closes with a section (11:34) which is actually inspired by organum, a Western harmonic practice where voices are doubled strictly in 4ths and 5ths. 4. _Hsákkolmói_ was inspired (again) by my (poor) impression of Mongolian music, combined with a bluegrass-like accompaniment. Then I sneak in a sabah makam in the middle to spice things up, which is a rather rare makam, but has a special place in Greek music, with some really famous rembetiko songs written in sabah. 5. _Pátío Kantaráistáis_ (to finally answer your question) is inspired by that one famous Bulgarian dance in 11/8 (2+2+3+2+2) - which, in universe, is the eponymous "Kantrian step". This one could easily be mistaken for Greek, simply because melodic writing is shared between Greece and the rest of the Balkans. I also have a quirk that I enjoy in this piece, by superimposing a C (subtonic) base with a C-half-sharp in the melody, creating a push and pull between the two versions of the subtonic. Another thing I find cool about this piece is that I switch from hicazkar makam in D, to sabah makam in B, since those are sort of related (basically if you take sabah from the third degree it's hicazkar). This ended up being kinda ranty, but I wanted to reflect back on my influences, and I do see how some of them are Greek (or could pass off as Greek), I also don't think that Greekness is a central component in this music. I am fascinated by your perspective, however, and I'll welcome any other comments you may have :) I'll try to set some timetables about my posting, but it'll probably be a couple of months or more before I have anything else to post! I appreciate the interest, regardless!

Ot imfúsir ái akkáim lóukor úas! Kúilir kátáis ilimfis ókkommotoráis úatta?

@@karlpoppins Hăx kūro’osj. Lłi méxűn nem be’ércjik ó’cjóm sjagávór’jisj týłu. Ał pro’ólzj’jaé’ets týx’njá bona na’ookiyéè…

*na’ookiyé’è

@@user-yh1nm1vy3i OK lol I give up! Btw when I first glanced over your comment I thought you were writing in Polish, and I was like "god do I sound Polish in the video"? xD

@@karlpoppins haha polish do be like that. I’m going to try and see if I can translate your comment with this video. It’s a pretty cool language and reminds me of my own. Nice work 👍

Appreciate the appreciation :) "Not sure what word medial hiatus means though" - Perhaps I didn't get the terminology right... but what I meant is that you can't have consecutive syllabic vowels ("hiatus") in the middle of a word ("word medially"). I don't have any formal qualifications, so I could be wrong -_- "I'm very confused about the fortis lenis subject vowels and the vowel prefixes in the conjugation tables though" - that's something I... forgot to explain. Basically, Kantric languages have a thing whereby the primary root vowel is long when the aspect is imperfective and short when it is imperfective (as a rule of thumb, but exceptions exist). Kalian inherits its fortis-lenis distinction from a now defunct long-short distinction, so in Kalian a verb in present tense (taken to be imperfective) always has a fortis vowel, which then remains as is in other imperfective tenses but gets reduced when the aspect changes to perfective. For example, <sóumir> ("to find") is from the root <sóum->, which contains the (fortis) diphthong <óu>. To form the past imperfective I reduplicate the left-most fortis-type vowel sound (in this case <ó>) as a prefix and change the suffix to <-iq>, so I get <ósóumiq>. To form the past perfective I add the same prefix, leave the suffix as is, but also reduce the root vowel <óu> to its lenis equivalent <ú>, getting <ósúmir>. Hopefully that makes sense! Not sure if it's a naturalistic system, but I like it :)

Oh that's kinda cool as a feature! I don't think it's that unnaturalistic, might've come about from a variety of sounds changes.

@@NoverMaC Yeah, you could argue it's compensatory lengthening from the loss of an inserted coda consonant that specifically forms the imperfective aspect. Or maybe the consonant is added at the end of the root coda, creating illegal clusters, which are resolved by removing consonants from the left side of the coda, which then leads to compensatory lengthening. Yeah, this would have been better had I actually evolved Kantric languages from Proto-Kantric -_-

Tbh you don't need to fully go through the evolution method. (Writing all the stages in code and making the intermediate languages are a pain) Just have an awareness of how things changed is good enough for families imo

@@NoverMaC That's fair. My idea for a new set of languages, which I finally will make via evolution from a proto-lang, is to evolve to just the "checkpoints", i.e. points where languages split off. I'm fine handwaving some stuff inbetween, but at least that way more "natural" things will arise at the end, and a lot of cool asymmetries hopefully.

Thanks :) I improvised the music on an instrument that my dad made for me from the scraps of a baglama - which he also made for me! It's a rather small instrument, with 4 double courses tuned (from bass to treble) A-D-A-D, with the top two courses in octaves. I have microtonal perdes on just a few notes, just enough to play basic makams such as husseyni, rast and hicaz. Given its oddball nature, I've decided that this instrument would be the flagship of Kalian Classical music, and it's called _firsa_ in Kalian, so that's what I call it IRL now, too! It perfectly encapsulates the sound that I'm going for in Kalian (and Kantrian) music, which is a blend of musical traditions ranging from the Balkans all the way to central Asia. If you want to listen to the music by itself, I've posted a separate video with just that, which you can find in this video's description!

@@karlpoppins Wow, that's really cool having what is effectively a conworld instrument irl. I myself purchased a bağlama after hearing King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard's microtonal albums, so I will perhaps experiment with some microtonal music for my conworld. I will definitely check out that video of just the music too!

​@rustlerustle4246 King Gizz rock! Now, if you're looking to learn more about microtonal music, I would recommend Murat Aydemir's Turkish Makam Guide, it's very accessible to those of us who are already familiar with Western musical practices. But ultimately I'm not trying to write Turkish Classical music, merely use its framework as a jumping point.

I'm wondering if it isn't my use of a box/symmetric vowel space, and schwas everywhere (kinda reminds me of Azeri in that respect). Definitely not intentional, though :)

I appreciate your appreciation... but I will disappoint you... Kalian is not _actually_ evolved - I'm guilty as charged! Now I have the predicament of retroactively using the comparative method to bridge both Kantrian and Kalian into their common ancestor (Classical Kantrian) just so I feel less guilty, but I think I'd rather learn from my mistake and focus my energy on a brand new family, which I wanted to do anyway. As for the presentation, I have zero knowledge on making videos, so I used the built-in windows video maker (Clipchamp?), though most of the "animation" is actually done on... PowerPoint. Basically, I created a "complete slide" for subsections of each section, and then started progressively removing elements backwards to match the text, also changing colors to highlight bits of text if necessary. Since PowerPoint doesn't like custom ligatures, I had to also use Word for some of the tables that included Kalian writing. Some text is also added using Clipchamp's basic animations.

​@@karlpoppins Wow! Well, you couldn't tell from the video that it wasn't evolved! I really admire the conlang! It has a very cohesive feel to it... There's this other famous conlanger who did the same un-evolved method for his conlang Verdurian (Mark Rosenfelder), and after he made it he went back and figured out the common ancestor to all of his conlangs! Just to talk shop for a second, I use the same method for my videos as well (Climpchamp and all, for all of its quirks lol)! I thought you used a different program because I couldn't figure out how to change the color of the text in PowerPoint! Is that an animation? Or do you just overlay two texts over each other and fade in one over the other? Also, how do you sync up the video and audio? The audio sounds too good to be recorded only on PowerPoint lol! My method is to make each slide a few minutes long, set a long delay between fade animations for the text, and clip it away in Climpchamp to match with the audio, but I feel like there HAS to be a better way to do it... I'm just not thinking of it! Is that what ""removing elements backwards" means? I followed you through the explanation but couldn't quite grasp that part... Thanks for your response, I really appreciate it!

@@ParchmentLore I'm glad I fooled you! I think others were fooled, too. I figured that as long as I keep my features simple, and introduce some degree of chaos, the language would pass off as naturalistic, which it certainly seems like it does :) My main issue with un-evolving Kalian is that I also have to be faithful to Kantrian, a contemporary of Kalian, from which I took some words by applying semi-regular transformations. I could handwave a lot of issues away by playing the "Tol substrate" card, so that's the only thing that's giving me some solace in the otherwise insurmountable task of effectively applying historical linguistics to two independently made conlangs, as a non-linguist no less! At least many of the features of the two languages are shared, especially their grammar, so it shouldn't be that bad. Most of the animation is on Powerpoint, so I have like 50-60 slides per large section of the video. So for instance when I want to highlight a certain part of the sentence in my morphosyntax section, I just create a new slide with those colors, and if they have to be highlighted one-by-one, then I create multiple slides. Then I export all the slides and line them up with the audio, which was the first thing to be completed. The audio was actually recorded paragraph-by-paragraph from my script, and I had many takes to get it to be as clear as I could (and hide my accent as much as possible, too). Then I recorded the music by basically jamming a piece for each section. I did all of this in Ableton Live, and then exported the audio and dragged it into Clipchamp, where I dropped all these hundreds of exported PowerPoint images. I used a software whose name evades me to make sure that slides are exported at max resolution and not at 720p. Sorry, that was a bit ranty, hope it makes sense.

@@karlpoppins I feel like I have a good eye for when a conlang was either evolved or just made up, but this was like a magic trick! As you said, there was just enough irregularity to keep me on my toes! :) No, that totally makes sense! So now I see what you mean by "Removing the elements"! So you start out with a "complete slide" with all the info on it, and then you copy that slide, dismantle a little bit from it, copy that slide, take a little bit off that, and all the while making sure to highlight the relevant stuff... Wow, that is wayyyy easier than what I was doing lol! For hundreds of slides, that must have been a mammoth effort, friend! The only thing I don't get is how you were able to apply the animations in PowerPoint if the slides were just still images? Sorry, it is wayyy too late for my brain to work efficiently lol... My favorite audio setup has been Audacity + Blue Yeti so far, is that what you used for your narration? I feel like it has to be different because it sounded way better than how I've tried to get my audio to sound! Sorry to take over with technical talk lol, I just really appreciate the background work that went into making the video! I appreciate the rant... :)

@@karlpoppins Definitely! I feel like I have a decently discerning eye for when a conlang was evolved or just made up, but this one had just enough irregularity to keep me guessing! Like a magic trick! Well done! :) Well, real linguists use the "substrate card" a LOT (*ahem* Pre-Greek substrate *ahem*), so that's a totally valid way to connect your languages! No, that totally makes sense! So now I see what you mean by working backwards, you make a completed slide with all the info, copy it, and remove some of it, highlighting stuff you need to highlight, and repeat! Wow, that's a lot better workflow than what I was doing lol! Still, hundreds of images must have been a mammoth task! So you just matched the images with the audio in Clipchamp? Awesome! My go-to so far for audio has been Audacity + Blue Yeti, is that what you used for the audio? It sounds super crisp! The only thing I can't grasp is how you apply the PowerPoint animations when you just have still images? Do you export parts of the presentation as a video? Sorry to make things so technical, I just really appreciate the background work that went into the video! (Also, love the Wonderdraft map, that's my go-to tool for map-making too!)

Thanks! I'm not particularly good or knowledgeable at literature/poetry, but I was going for 4-line verses with couplet rhyming, as far as I could make it work. 3-line verses are supposed to add tension, due to their lack of symmetry, which is why they depict the fall of the Tol people. There's no intentional alliteration, but it's interesting that you're hearing it - perhaps it's the phonotactics limitations coupled with the already limited consonant sounds. Stress is not phonemic, indeed, but it's one of those aspects of the language that I didn't properly systematise. What's certainly true is that stress is generally never word-final, and that past tense forms (which have a reduplicative suffix) have an initial stress, and then a secondary stress typically on the penultimate if the word ends up being more than 3 syllables. Longer words also might have two stresses, but they're not super consistent either. Kind of like in French, where you could have non-phonemic stress in varying syllables depending on "feel". This poem is part of the oral tradition of the Celestial people, but in universe there exist different versions of the text (this being the most common one). There's also a canonical musical adaptation of the text, in a semi-epic format (verse-chorus but with some development), but there exist many renditions of that adaptation, for different instrumentations (or lack thereof - vocal only). I'm currently working on a musical rendition that most closely depicts through-composed Kalian classical music, and I'm about half-way done. Hopefully I'll be able to post that in a few weeks. The current level of technology in _Aqwa_ /ɐŋwɐ/ (in Kantrian) is somewhere in the 18-19th century for real-world standards, but with some steampunk components for the most technologically advanced peoples (which neither the Kalians or the Celestials are).

Thanks! Indeed, the music is mine, mostly improvised, one or two takes per section. My formal educational background is in Western Classical music, but I have been interested in the Greek and Middle Eastern modal tradition, and exposed to it mostly by means of Turkish Classical music. The music in the video is supposed to be Kalian and Celestial ("conmusic", if you will), which incorporates influences from Greek, Balkan, Caucasian, Turkish and Central Asian musics.

That's really cool! I am also quite into non-Western styles of music, both partly cause I am of Middle Eastern and North African descent; as well as I live in a very multicultural city so I commonly hear and listen to other styles of music. For a while now I have been coming up with a "conmusic" theory for a theoretical instrument (that, at some point, I would actually like to contact a luthier to make it) which incorporates elements of southern Spanish music, traditional Venezuelan music as well as Middle Eastern and Japanese music. It uses a base TET of 24 as well, so I get access to quater tones which is great.

@@karlpoppinsI would absolutely listen to this music if it were released as a separate video!

@@samuelhammons2528 Well, what do you know, now it is!

@@karlpoppinsThank you!

The dative is used as a general locative and for indirect objects. The prepositional case is the one that covers all other uses, and it is never standalone; it requires a preposition to be used. In some declensions, however, the prepositional case is identical to the corresponding adverb, if it exists. I don't know if that use is naturalistic (probably not), but in universe it is supposed to be a very distinctive feature of all Kantric languages.

Yes, this is my first conlang, _Fyehnusín_ (Feyan). It's an in-world constructed auxlang :)

@@karlpoppins That's really cool!

Wow, it's really interesting! I'm curious what sounds to you like the sj-sound, and I'm also wondering where you perceive pitch accent. For the latter, perhaps it's a combination of my use of geminate consonants, along with the fortis-lenis vowel distinction and the lack of phonemic stress? For the former, is it perhaps my use of the palatal fricative?

@@karlpoppins Yes, the palatal fricative sounds very much like the sj sound

seconded

As a sweede I see what you're thinking, thoug I think it sounds more like a cursed mix between Latin and old Norse...

@@svantlas6034 As another Swede, I'd say spot on. Not very much like Swedish at all, perhaps the tonality is the only similarity.

I spend plenty of time tinkering with phonetics and phonotactics to get the desired result. I started working on Kalian more than 2 years ago but I made slight changes to its phonology as recent as a few months ago. Phonotactics is key, if you realise what you like about certain natlangs you'll be able to transpose that straight into your conlanging :)

Let that one be our little secret - I did not evolve Kalian from its older variant, which I have not written in the first place! I've written 5 languages with that level of completeness, from 3 different families, but evolved none of them, because I simply didn't know how. However, I still need at least two more language families to fill in my world, so this time I'll do the big boy thing and write the proto-lang first. I'm also considering "devolving" Kantrian and Kalian into their common ancestor, Classical Kantrian, which would be difficult, as it probably requires some pretty advanced linguistics knowledge), but helped by the fact that I can handwave a lot of things in Kalian as "Tol influences". So how did I get cognates from Kantrian? Well, I cheated: I applied semi-regular transformations from Kantrian to get Kalian words. This kinda works because Kantrian is a really conservative language so in a way it's a peak into the past of Kalian, though not quite. Ultimately, this isn't very satisfying, which is why I'm keen to take off the training wheels with my next projects. I'm glad I fooled you, though :) As for [cç], it indeed is an allophone of /kx/ before front vowels - all velars palatalise that way in Kalian. I really love affricates, especially the lesser used ones (bilabial, velar, uvular). I tend to gravitate towards sound I can actually pronounce, and affricates are "exotic" enough to give Kalian a unique sound while also being easy for me to handle :)

@@karlpoppins Well, you certainly did fool me! Kállis certainly seems like a naturalistic conlang at first glance. I can relate, by the way: I've tried to make language families in my own world as well, but (despite being a linguistics student) I never had the know-how required to make a conlang from a protolang--that, and I have this nasty tendency to get inspiration for a phonaesthetic in my head before I make the protolanguage, only to then find out that there's no natural way to get that phonaesthetic by evolving my protolang. I'm just getting back into the hobby with some fresh hope after learning some more about historical linguistics. Again, though, I understand the shortcuts. The semi-regular transformations thing is something I've done with earlier versions of Sanşasi too (this is my 4th attempt). But I have come to agree with you: The simple way in this case isn't the most satisfying. And reverse evolution is possible, but it requires some knowledge of historical linguistics. Still, it isn't actually that much harder than normal evolution, so don't be discouraged too much! That said, good to know about [cç]! And yeah, affricates certainly are cool! I tend to use the common ones ([ts] and [tʃ] and their voiced variants) a lot in conlangs, but maybe I should branch out a bit... I personally also really like palatal sounds: I'm planning to incorporate a few in Sanşasi, with sounds like /c/ and /ɟ/ being allophones of various sounds in certain positions, which is why I might consider putting [cç] in. This is all speculation at the moment though; I have 2 entire stages of a protolang to make before I get to classical Sanşasi (let's hope I don't give up before that happens--again. I tend to struggle with verbs a lot and also really struggle to find forms that I like the sound of). I do agree on the pronounceability factor though. It's no fun if you can't pronounce your own language. it took me a long time to get the hang of the alveolo-palatal fricatives in Sanşasi ([ɕ], [ʑ]) as they're slightly different than the standard English post-alveolar fricatives. Anyways, I really hope that the naturalistic conlanging works out for you! Looking forward to seeing any future projects :)

@@seadaw2152 "And reverse evolution is possible, but it requires some knowledge of historical linguistics" - yep, I basically need to use the comparative method, except in a creative way, since these two languages don't actually have a common ancestor. I guess my approach would be similar to that of the Altaicists xD "It's no fun if you can't pronounce your own language" - that's one of the reasons I don't use pharyngeals, I just don't understand how to produce them. Tones are a huge issue, too. I'm fine with most other sounds, however, be it vowels or consonants. "I have this nasty tendency to get inspiration for a phonaesthetic in my head before I make the protolanguage, only to then find out that there's no natural way to get that phonaesthetic by evolving my protolang" - I have run into a similar predicament, right now. One of the new families I want to start ends up with a vaguely East-Asian sounding language and a vaguely West-African sounding language, but I have no idea how to do this. Still, I do conlanging for the sake of conlanging, so learning how to manipulate a proto-lang is a cool thing to do :) Overall, I'm curious to see what will happen if I apply naturalistic evolution rules, but ultimately I prize phonesthetics more than linguistic rigor, which is why I'm fine releasing a language like Kalian on the basis that it has surface-level verisimilitude. I want to write poetry and songs, recite texts, and so on. Composing and reciting the City of Gold poem was so much fun, and I'm also working on a song version in the fictional musical style of the Celestial people, which too is incredible fun.

@@karlpoppins "I basically need to use the comparative method, except in a creative way, since these two languages don't actually have a common ancestor" - Yeah, it's a really complicated process. I tried to do that with one of the earlier versions of my conlang and didn't succeed, but I know people have done it before! "that's one of the reasons I don't use pharyngeals, I just don't understand how to produce them. Tones are a huge issue, too." - I understand! I can handle pharyngeals, I think, but struggle with the bilabial trill [ʙ] and some affricates like [ɡɣ]. I'm lucky that my native language (Dutch) already has some pretty exotic vowels and diphthongs. "One of the new families I want to start ends up with a vaguely East-Asian sounding language and a vaguely West-African sounding language, but I have no idea how to do this. Still, I do conlanging for the sake of conlanging, so learning how to manipulate a proto-lang is a cool thing to do :)" - Hmm, that does sound like an interesting predicament. I guess it would have to involve doing some research into how west-African languages and east-Asian languages work, and then try to think about what a shared proto-language could look like. I don't know that much about West-African languages, so I'm not sure how similar or different these two language groups are... "Overall, I'm curious to see what will happen if I apply naturalistic evolution rules, but ultimately I prize phonesthetics more than linguistic rigor" - i'm in the same boat. I don't personally need absolute naturalism, but I do want my conlangs to sound the way I invision them. Also, the City of Gold poem was wonderful! Do I see a bit of inspiration from the ancient Greek epics, which were carried on in poetic form? I do remember having read a comment somewhere where you said your native language was Greek...

@@seadaw2152 "my native language (Dutch)" - sorry for your loss xD "Do I see a bit of inspiration from the ancient Greek epics" - I'm not sure! Perhaps it is subconscious. I am indeed Greek, but epic poems aren't unique to our culture - isn't the epic of Gilgamesh a collection of poems? Northern Europeans also have a long tradition of epic poetry, too - and these are the first ones that come in mind. I'm an avid Tolkien fan, and when I was first writing the original English version (which I wrote in conjunction with the Kalian one, to create as much rhyming and rhythmic consistency as possible in Kalian) I had to deliberately avoid imitating his style!

Thanks :) It does have that feel, doesn't it? I'm a native speaker of Greek, so it's probably my bias showing xD

@@karlpoppins well it still sounds original, i like it a lot :)

@@karlpoppins It's interesting to see how different conlangers tend to create languages that sound or look partially similar to their native language. I also thought it looked Greek, at least in some noticeable grammatical and phonological instances, but the overall phonology also reminded me of the Scandinavian languages. I like it a lot too, it sounds pleasing and cool

@@christopherfilip6949 I'd say it's more influenced by Ancient Greek rather than Modern, especially how the diphthongs are realised. Most of my phonological choices are conscious and deliberate, and I did want Kalian to have that kind of feel, but I was also going for a bit of Finnish, too. Most of my other languages sound and feel very little like Greek; my Greek bias is showing more so in morphosyntax, especially in derivational morphology, which is the one bias I'm still trying to overcome.

@karlpoppins Yup, I was thinking about Ancient Greek when writing the original comment, forgot to specify what I meant. It's cool when you're able to put so many different influences into the conlang. I don't know enough about Finnish to have put my finger on it firsthand, but now that you talk about it, I can certainly notice it in there. Concerning the bias, I think it's nice to be somewhat biased since it creates originality in all those different conlangs, as they're (sometimes unintentionally) based on all sorts of natural languages

My favorite bit is the diphthongs, I sort of got them from Ancient Greek / Finnish. Did you have any inspirations for your phonology?

@karlpoppins for me, I just really liked the idea of "symmetry" in my conlang, if that makes sense? Other than diphthongs up the wazoo, I also followed a principle of "if there's a stop, there's a corresponding nasal, fricative, and affricate". Ergo, that's how I ended up with/kx/, the wonderful unvoiced velar affricate. Don't know if I could say I had a few solid inspirations, but many natural languages have provided inspiration and ideas.

@@infinitiyash3440 I had a similar thought process when I made the Kantric languages, they all have symmetric series of stop, nasals and fricatives. Here I just decided to turn the stops into affricates, sort of like them being aspirated? They are so, so fun to pronounce!

​@karlpoppins they really are! I feel like adding that extra texture to the expected pronunciation of the romanization makes it feel weirdly believable. It's like on of those idiosyncrasies of language that are so clear that I can even imagine what the accent of one of the speakers would be in English. "King" with a kind of breathy k and no g, time would be "tsaim", and so on.

@@infinitiyash3440 I feel like I've heard some native English speakers affricate their /t/, so you're not too far from the truth, actually...

Appreciated :)

Much appreciated!

Glad you enjoyed it!