This video is perfection

i love what you're saying in this.

I feel like he did nothing wrong up until the point he wanted it. Everything he did was to build a close relationship with a family, which is fine for the most part up until it negatively affects others or there is an unequal power dynamic like with a child or teen and an adult. The family relationship is fine. it's just that when you are an adult, you are expected to know better and be held responsible for your actions, but a lot of adults aren't mature adults. Once you turn 18 you aren't automatically mature it takes living caring and understanding about societal norms to become "mature" but some people take longer to learn and some never do or actively go against it. Bojack is a mature adult but he actively went againt it when he didn't take responsibility and create a boundary for the teen and himself when he realized she had feelings for him. Instead of that he almost doubled down on the situation. I feel like bojack is a show about being an adult but how a persons selfishness can ruin thiers and others lives around them. Every mistake he makes in the show is purly because he was selfish and didnt care enough about the people around him to help them when he does try to help it usally just a pointer on how they should be slefish too.

👑👑👑

So much of modern media analysis in fandom space is evaluating the morality of specific character actions, and while i think its a great exercise and is a valuable tool for deconstructing theme, so many people miss the point and choose to idolize or loathe the character as if they were a real person and then use that assessment as a way to virtue signal to like-minded individuals and ostracize dissenters. Its incredibly strange. First off, the characters arent real, and the people they hurt arent real. Nobody is really being hurt here. Secondly, the characters and their actions are an abstraction used to tell a story, and that story is used as a vehicle for the theme or message that the author is trying to get across. Well written characters may seem lifelike and you are supposed to empathize with them, that is what makes a story effective at conveying an idea, but they are not real people and you shouldnt be fixated on things like loudly decrying their actions as immoral. Most people who watch Bojack are capable of understanding that Bojack is a complex character who is capable of good and bad things. If they find parts of his character charming or likeable despite his history of bad behavior, that doesnt make them a bad person. Because Bojack doesnt fucking exist. And that isnt even the point in the first place.

Love your video but the substance sucks dog poo

I agree with you on the whole spencer wren front but at the same time i do feel like it is slightly more acceptable, because while yes spencer is 16 in the show irl they're a lot closer in age and therefore it doesn't come across as weird, but i defo think it would be a lot more obvious if the actor was actually 16 and i don't think the writers would have allowed it.

In a effort to condem Bojack's behavior, the writers described a mech more sinister scenario than what we ACTUALLY saw in season 2. They retcon'd season 2 in order to prove their point. That's why there's a debate about this.

The problem is exactly that... intention. You don't have grooming without intention, does it change the responsability? Of course. Intention matters, me taking someone else's phone by mistake is different from me stealing someone to give me their phone. Still someone lost their property Me unintentionally killing someone doesn't make me Jeffrey Dahmer. Still someone lost their life and a lot of people got hurt. We can understand that someone did a mistake and still be rightfully hurt. Here Bojack did not groom Penny, but he still hurt her. We are not diminishing Penny's experience for saying he didn't groom her. We can say Bojack did nothing wrong and still understand that he hurt Penny. Also I don't get what is the point if we talk about age of consent. That is a perfectly good argument for why stuff isn't necessarily wrong. What is legal tends to be what is socially accepted, and it is different to justify what is not socially accepted to what is socially accepted. In a world where everybody are killers, murder isn't that bad. That is why societies like Vikings aren't judged like societies now, because they lived in a society where it was accepted to loot and murder. It isn't particularly strong on Bojack because he himself accepts he is wrong and probably damaged her. So he himself understands that what he did is wrong but still did it. So we can judge Bojack as an individual and his own set of morals.

I loved this show!!!

Thanks for the video and warning. I think I'm good just giving this whole series a miss forever. Yikes.

I had no problem understanding this episode. If you need a video essay to understand stories like these don't watch shows or movies.

I think a dimension of this that’s worth discussing is how we unconsciously decide the severity of a grooming situation based on the desirability of the groomer. Sometimes people do it consciously and those people are monsters, but in our heads we have a tendency to treat situations where the groomer is unattractive or more evil looking as worse then ones where the groomer is famous or in the case of the show brought up, a woman because then it’s implied the victim was lucky in some way that they were being abused by a desirable figure. Bojack is both famous and probably considered attractive by mid 40s Horse standards, and in it makes it seem like his predatory behavior is the byproduct of being wanted and not for what it actually is. I don’t like to use the “if the roles where reversed” thing as a crutch, but I will say that if Bojack wasn’t famous or shown to be successful with women otherwise we’d look at his actions towards Penny differently

Oh shit, is this where BoJack was headed? I didn't watch it post first season, always kinda regretted it for not watching, but damn...

I might be in the minority here, but I like Eli, I went in knowing he’s Payne’s replacement-so maybe that helped. I just think there were times that fleshed his character out more that I wish we saw a lot more of. Like the whole of his arc in season 5 actually interested me-especially the family stuff. They also hinted a lot about his work and what he did with it involving the police before the fire. I wish we could have gotten some expansion on those things because I feel like they planted the seeds to give him a unique character perspective, and they just never followed through.

What Bojack did reminds me vaguely of a lesson where my lecturer described the legal concept of contra bonos mores as a Hail Mary. It's when there is no true definition of what the crime is but there is a clear understanding of immortality to it. Yeah Bojack never intended it but because of his relationship and who he was, there's a certain immorality he ignored in doing those things to Penny. It's grooming but with intention just being replaced with Bojack willingly ignoring social contract and morality to indulge himself.

It's been a while since I've seen "A Teacher", but from what I remember it felt a lot more calculated than you're describing. Claire immediately singles Eric out as a jock type, someone she couldn't have in high school but intrigues her. She finds him handsome. And by the time she comes onto him in the parking lot behind the school party/prom/etc. she's admitted to having a "crush" on him to a peer, albeit unwittingly. Everything she does from that point on is to groom him. To get him to him to "date" her, bed her, be with her. It's honestly shocking to me that there are people out there who thought this depiction was too subtle. To me it was jarring and uncomfortable all the way through. The way Eric is reluctant to break boundaries with her until she presses the issue, the way she constantly brings him on outings disguised as "tutoring" and "college trips", even when they take that trip to the cabin to be alone together her control of the situation is on full display. In my mind, there is a lot less room for debate in that situation. Maybe this thinking of "they could actually be good together" comes from the victim of the assault and grooming being male and the predator being female.

Bradley Whitford was more believable as Red John than the Sherriff who actually was. I think if it had been written better, the actor could have pulled it off - he was great in Nikita. But it doesn't make any sense. Red John wouldn't use a gun. Did no one tell screenwriters the truth novelists already know? Good stories shouldn't surprise you with "the who," only "the how."

One thing I want to point out, is that you can treat kids like people, without also treating them like adults. You listen to their struggles, you give them validation for said struggles, but you also do not act as if they are fully developed moral agents. Unfortunately, someone like Bojack could never actually do this, because his early life and relationships were horrible and he became a fully dysfunctional man.

Bojak is basically my ex girlfriend almost 80% lol

I only know Jamie Kennedy from Circle Circle Dot Dot and Son of the Mask lmfaoo. I even watched Ghost Whisperer as a child and didn't realize he was Jamie Kennedy

Wait, so you started this by saying intentions matter, and you end it by saying intentions don't matter. I'm confused. Or do you mean to say that if Bojack meant to groom penny, he'd be no worse? Like, his intentions suck, because he's so selfish and impulsive, but in my mind, he'd be twice as indefencible if he went into it intending to have sex with Penny. Like, it's the difference between being a pathetic and gross human being put into a situation where the worst of humanity shines through, and being inherently a monster and hardly identifyable as human. It's the difference between running over somebody in your car and just driving off into the sunset rather than taking responsibility, and going out of your way to murder somebody for fun. One is understandable, not excusable but understandable. The other is just beyond understanding and actions spawned from an unrecognizably demented and perverted mind.

14:56 - 15:29 PREEEEEEEEEEEEACH 🗣️

Im thinking its time I watch bojack again

What's also wild is that Julian Morris (who played Wren) and Troian Bellisario (Spencer) are only two years apart in age irl. So the young audience sees a 24 and 26 year old flirting and kissing, which I think would register a lot differently than if they saw two actors who actually did have the textual 10 years age difference do the same (think the All Too Well 10 min version video with Sadie SInk and Dylan OBrien age difference). **haven't finished the full video yet so she may bring this up about the Aria/Ezra dynamic bc their actors are also only two years apart**

I feel like it's also really important to point out grooming doesn't have to be for sexual purposes. Any sort of manipulating of an underage person to do something that is harmful to them but benefits the older person is grooming. You're purposefully manipulating a kid to do something FOR YOU that YOU KNOW deep down has zero benefit for them and you also are aware you need to HIDE YOUR TRUE INTENTIONS. I had an art teacher in high school that convinced us art was everything in life and developed really personal relationships with select students which he would then keep in touch with after graduation. He uses these new upcoming artists to further his own career as he can put his name behind them as their former teacher/mentor. He trauma dumps in almost every class and encourages other students to do the same. A lot of the rhetoric he reinforces is something along the lines of "oh im a cool teacher because I'm anticulture like most of you kids who are struggling with your sense of identity as a teenager." This included him advocating against therapy and saying it was stupid. He constantly was telling us our parents don't know what's best and encouraged ppl to tell him their "secrets" instead, except he was extremely unequal in terms of WHO he paid extra attention to. Every year he has an "inner circle" of students he hangs out with outside of class on weekends. This group is always composed of students who's art is the most similar to his. He encouraged a culture of toxic positivity where he constantly told us he has nothing else in life and he loves his students unconditionally because we're all he has. Anyone that was critical of the class he was running was immediately shut down with "oh but he's so kind and understanding like no other adult how could u dislike him".

Crazy how none of us knew it was grooming until Charlotte found them on the Yacht*

In both cases it seems like normalizing it to teens who would be exposed to it via media.

STANELY TUCCI IS HERB KEZAZ WHAT

"You NEED TO BE BETTER!!!" - Todd Chavez

My groomer still thinks what they did was love, and cant comprehend that abuse and gaslighting isnt love. And grooming doesnt have to be between an adult and a child. Mine started when i was 15 and they were 17, so not yet an adult but it went on for 7 years

As someone that went through a harsh breakup and trying to move on from a 1 year long situation-ship sometimes you just have to realise your the bad guy of the story and not because anyone made you it its because you did it to yourself and you need to change

I don't think he did it to penny intentionally since he does it to get close to Charlotte but when she rejects him he does use her as a way out. Even then that doesn't excuse why he did that he didn't think things though and doesn't know what boundaries is due to how he was raised. Still it doesn't excuse his actions on how many times he did it and I think that was the whole point of this series.

Can you do a Sopranos video next?

Honestly the way you described grooming reminds me of Bob and Patty’s relationship in insatiable

19:11 😭😭😭

Wtf is up with the name ezra

why does this even need to be explained??? what kind of brainrot do these people consume to think it WASNT grooming??

Yeah there's a lot of colonialism in how you analyze Hama & Jet. Firstly, we don't know for a fact Hama has killed anyone. Nor do we ever try to understand her perspective beyond "Bloodbending Evil" as someone who has survived genocide & concentration camps, deciding to turn the tables on the people who passively let these things happen to her & her people if not actively support them. Perhaps Hama's fellow prisoners were executed following her escape. We do not know anything of what led her to this town or to abduct & jail ppl. It's pretty clear this show was written by settlers both in how they deal with the Fire Nation colonies in between ATLA & LOK, as well as how they treat Jet & Hama. I'll remind you the Fire Nation town Jet plans to destroy is a settlement. It only exists because of ethnic cleansing & genocide, which everyone in that town is directly participating in by occupying the land, or by having physically forced the Indigenous Earth Kingdom people from the land themselves, undoubtedly like the elderly folks in that village. Yes, Jet is wiping out a village, but that village is not innocent. The only innocent people in that village are the children whose parents have dragged them into an ethnically cleansed town. I do not believe Jet was deliberately trying to kill the children in that village & a lesson about collateral damage is a valuable one, but it's a lesson that feels inept coming from a trio who have all undergone genocide themselves. People who should understand why resistance is important & why the banality of evil should be challenged. All this to say, Bloodbending is not inherently evil. It is a last resort that has saved lives. Kyoshi used it to stop Yun from killing Rangi. Hama used it to escape the camp, Amon used it to escape his abusive father. All bloodbenders have used it justifiably at least once. The problem comes from using it not as a last resort. Hama should perhaps be held accountable for what she did (which we still don't know the extent of beyond bloodbending & kidnapping), but sending her back to the very prison that forced her to use bloodbending in the first place feels very unjust & colonial. She is a survivor of genocide. For better or for worse, she survived & should get to go home & heal from her experiences. A problem with white horror is the failure of an audience to understand why marginalized ppl identify with the antagonist & why they fail to fully capture the breadth of historical reality behind what they're consuming/producing. Indigenous women & children have been systematically stolen by fascist governments before. They have been tortured & put in camps. They have been unjustly imprisoned for resisting. For trying to hold on to what remains of their culture. As someone who speaks to Indigenous peoples regularly, this episode's ending no longer feels creepy or foreboding, it just feels frustrating. I don't feel fear, I feel anger.

It is because it is so alluring to bask then steal innocence. Grooming is one of the worst possible versions of it, but in concept no different than taking a friend to an amazing show or delicious restaurant after having tried it, then having them experience their first time with it. It's the power of knowing or having experience and the rush of having someone rely on you for their own experience of something. Quite scary this all is...

I can't date a 19 year old being 22 myself because of the HUGE difference in maturity, imagine a minor. There is no excuse really, it's always about "being legal" not about "WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK AM I THINKING?! THEY STILL GO TO SCHOOL AND I HAVE A 9 TO 5 JOB!! THIS IS WEEEEEEIRD" 💀💀💀

Huh, my ick about this show was right. Never watched a single episode and now I never will

0:44 whoever the fuck wrote that entire paragraph defending bojack should really get their hard drive checked by the fbi.

I also can't help but notice that Scott sorta looks like a dollar store Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Surely he didn't cast the lead with that in mind.

I was an incredibly empathetic child, which made my mother nervous. The worst kind of predators aren't evil men in basements, but adults with a sh!t ton of unresolved trauma. Emotionally stunted, but with adult experience. An unstable teenager with an adult's strength.

They defiantly groomed us because my 12 year old self was rooting for Aria and Ezra thinking there end game😅

So I watched this show live with my mum, we both stopped at season 4 after the whole Jim dies and goes into another guys body and then has amnesia. I had no idea there was a season 5 but it doesn't seem like I missed much lol.

I think people can be abusive, cruel, and manipulative without intending to. The general thesis of the show is exactly what Diane says to BoJack, that she doesn't believe in a deep down and that people are what they do. No matter how someone intends for something to happen, it's not a good enough excuse in situations like these. I do think intention is important and should be taken into consideration, but never at the expense of the victim and always on a case by case basis. Great video!!

Mentalist sounds like an english playground insult