Why does it matter so much to you that Mormons let go of Joseph if they embrace Jesus?

You really should have Michelle Stone on - Jacob doesn't answer these questions: 1. William Law had significant financial and political motive to get joseph out of office and out of town. He heavily invested into land in Nauvoo of which the saint's weren't buying because Joseph sold them the church lots for less - Joseph was judge in many arbitrations between Law and the citizens of Nauvoo of which Law was loosing badly. The other Expositors (higbee) was not only excommunicated but also sued by joseph smith. 2. Having someone be your first councolur doesn't mean they are close. The people who are close to you are the ones that you have known the longest. Joseph trusted Law - and law betrayed him.

Thank you Michelle! Long time multi-generational knower of Joseph’s monogamy here and I also a fan of Michelle!

Thank you Michelle for your beautiful powerful and profound testimony and perspective! It was a brilliant discussion! Your testimony is pure fire! 🔥

The King Follet Discourse was given shortly before Joseph was killed. There were thousand of people there and it would have been hard to hear. The sermon that we have today was written using the notes of 4 different people, Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton, which may or may not have been recorded correctly and Joseph never had a chance to review/approve it. And the 4 people who took those notes are people who are suspect Also none of the Smith's taught or believed those alleged doctrines after Joseph died. "In 1912 George Albert Smith wrote: “Sometime ago I received an invitation, mailed from the Liahona office, to contribute to a fund for the purpose of mailing copies of King Follet’s[sic] funeral sermon. At the time I was somewhat surprised, because I have thought that the report of that sermon might not be authentic and I have feared that it contained some things that might be contrary to the truth when I knew just what it was, so I did not reply to the letter. Not being very well, I did not feel like taking the matter up, and have learned since that some of the other brethren felt as I did and thought that greater publicity should not be given to that particular sermon.” Even an apostle and future prophet closer to the time didn't believe it was an accurate copy. People can't attribute that talk to Joseph.

No, the highest members were the first presidency and neither Hyrum nor Sidney ever practiced polygamy. William Marks was also a high member, also never practiced polygamy. The 12 were basically traveling missionaries, nothing like what they are today. And Joseph's own brother William was one of the 12 and he along with a few others who didn't practice it were kicked out of the 12 and the church after Joseph's death.

Can we just point out that the lie that Joseph practiced polygamy was not the only lie these people told.

It's just so mind blowing that people have no problem believing there could be a wide extensive conspiracy to cover up polygamy while Joseph is alive but have a hard time believing their could be a wide extensive conspiracy to pin polygamy on Joseph after he's dead.

"I am no false prophet, I am no impostor; I have had no dark revelations, I have had no revelations from the devil. I have made no revelations; I have not got anything up myself. The same God that has thus far dictated and directed me, and inspired me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and Commandment on Celestial and Plural marriage; and the same God Commanded me to obey it." He said to me "that unless I accept it and introduce it and practise it, I together with my people should be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. And they say if I do so and so they will kill me. What shall I do! What shall I do! If I do not practise it I shall be damned with all my people; if I do teach it and practise it and urge it, they say they will kill me, and I know they will." But said he, "we have got to observe it, that it was an eternal principle, and that it was given to him by way of Commandment and not by way of instruction.” VERBAL STATEMENT OF BP. DENNISON L. HARRIS Of Monroe, Sevier Co., Utah, made by him to President Jos. F. Smith in the presence of Elder Franklin Spencer, at the house of Bp. Dorius of Ephraim, Sanpete Co., Utah, on Sun- day Afternoon, May 15th, 1881. Reported by George F. Gibbs. josephsmithfoundation.org/verbal-statement-of-bishop-dennison-l-harris-to-president-joseph-f-smith/

Joseph Smith practiced Plural marriage , and not Polygamy. They are not the same. This woman has no idea what she is talking about.

Michelle I think you are totally wrong about polygamy. But that’s neither here nor there. To each his own views. The issue however is that you are working with the enemies of the church on this issue. This to me in my personal opinion makes you apostate. Grounds for excommunication. But this is in the hands of the church. Not for me to actual judge. But mark my words, the time will come when you will fall away. You cannot maintain this for ever.

Why?

Michelle is correct, Aaron didn't listen. It became apparent that he wanted to put Michelle in a corner where Joseph was a bad guy...after over an hour of her explaining his INNOCENCE. Wished Aaron could live with at least the possibility ofJoseph being a good man, regardless of how he views Mormons in general.

How could Brigham Young be a prophet of God when he was such a horrible, abusive, misogynistic, racist man-Or the men after him that followed his counsel? So what does that say about the church? Is it only the true church at certain times?

The 3 witnesses saw them in vision, like Paul saw the Lord in vision. The 8 witnesses saw them in person, like the other 11 apostles upon His resurrection. Two different experiences for two different reasons.

The Nauvoo expositor was run by apostates. Apostates take the truth and twist it to make it look bad. If apostates and enemies can make Jesus look bad enough to kill, they can do the same with Joseph or any other man. Prophets have always been persecuted and killed since the beginning of time. It's east to except ancient prophets but hard to accept modern prophets. Today is no different. Only the minority typically accept and stay faithful to modern prophets. For those having a hard time with early Church polygamy and the polygamy of biblical prophets like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc, this is a great video - The Early Polygamy of the The Latter Day Saints: an Embarrassment, or Glorious? kzbin.info/www/bejne/h3eVd5Sbj7SWjNU&ab_channel=DavidAlexander Mathew 10 40 ¶ He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. John 16 1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Michelle is very mistaken. There is the Lott family Bible. In it is recorded the first marriage of Cornelius P. Lott and his wife. Then in 1843 it records their eternal marrige sealed by Hyrum with Joseph standing by. Then it says, gave our daughter Melissa to wife, it was so secret they didn't write in the name of her groom. After Joseph died Melissa remarried and her father wrote; Melissa Smith was married to Ira Willes. There are also a number of letters written from Isaac and Sarah Scott before and after Joseph death to her parents. They are absolutely appalled at the new teaching of Joseph, plurality of Gods and a man having up to 10 wives. They say they heard it from the highest authority in the church, also that the elders were told to lie about it. They almost celebrate Joseph's and Hyrum's death saying the Lord killed them for teaching such false doctrine. To believe what Michelle is preaching is to believe everyone else lied, the 12 apostle lie, Joseph enemies lie and the founding members of the RLDS church all lied.

Michelle, you are brilliant! Great interview!!

Of course Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy aka committing adultery behind Emma's back. Facts.

Michelle, you continue to amaze me.

What about Israel? The entire house of Israel was born of polygamy. Gen.30" Jesus himself the son of David. A polygamist family. God comes down and commands David to marry many wives unto his bosem. (Sex)" 2 Samuel 12: 8" You just can't explain that away? If Smith restored all things just before Christ returns as Peter promised in Acts. Then who ever restored Israel and the 12 apostle church would have to at least bring back a polygamist family as before. Link UTube video titled (book of Abraham part 7) type in this to get there

Read “In Sacred Loneliness”. Each chapter addresses the polygamist wives of Joseph Smith. Well documented. A good read!!

My feelings on marriage after mortality should be seen "in view of eternity" which is a "marriage" founded on eternal principles, like virtue, patience, faith, hope, charity, honesty, mercy, and benevolence. The scriptural pattern for this is "Christ" is the groom and "the church" is the bride! This is "in view of eternity." This is what the Prophet Joseph Smith was trying to teach the people, but the polygamists twisted it to gratify their carnal desires of adultery. Click on my picture icon and read the scriptural narrative.

The problem I have with Michelle is where she didn't confront the issue if it being literally true. She only seems to care that it gives her moral value. Truth matters. Joseph saying that the Book of Mormon is history and it is not matters. He translated the book of Abraham and Kinderhook plates and one he didn't translate correctly the other he tried to translate and it was a made up language. He even made up a story about the Kinderhook plates. He is a liar just like Brigham Young and should not be a trustworthy source of morals.

That was a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it.

Most men want to “vote people off the island”. Women are here to STOP that nonsense. Women want to include not exclude.

Why on earth would Brigham Young and others use the Nauvoo Expositor to doctor D&C 132? That would make Joseph Smith, "the prophet of the restoration" look terrible and a megalomaniac who was justifiably in the wrong and imprisoned, and ultimately killed. The Brighamites swore oaths of vengeance for Joseph in the temple until 1930. Brigham Young using the Nauvoo Expositor to craft D&C 132 is completely illogical. And if your going to discount William Clayton... well there is alot of contemporaneous history and I believe scripture in his hand. Think of the thousands of people who would have had to goto their graves keeping the conspiracy secret. You can't get 3 Mormons to keep a secret for a week let alone their entire lives! This is classic "special knowledge" conspiracy theory mumbo-jumbo, no different than 911 was an inside job, moon landing deniers, and flat earthers.

43:16 A polygamist who is practicing it secretively who is in constant threat for life is going to teach his 12 year old son about the thing that will get him killed??

42:16 here we go again. Now it’s you can’t trust the source. This coming from the woman who cites The Anti-Polygamy Standard quoting an unnamed friend who “heard” Phebe Woodruff denounce polygamy.

41:22 not exactly. It’s more like after they realize there’s no use trying to get through to her they just quit trying.

It’s been purely the evidence she chooses to pay attention to and ignoring the evidence or calling a whole bunch of other people liars that’s “lead” her to conclusion.

Mormon here, You don’t have to believe the Book of Mormon in order to be saved.You don’t have to believe the Bible to be saved. If you become a legalist, you could memorize the Bible from front to back and never know the Lord, never be called a friend to God! If you worship the Bible and never know God it has become your idol. My favorite comment made was about Jesus being the perfect covenant keeper, took the punishment like he was a sinner, so we could walk around like we our the clean one’s , if we will be born again. The injustice’s God was willing to subject himself to for the gift of mercy to his children. The Book of Mormon is a stand alone Book it doesn’t need Joseph smith or Lds to be the word of God, it is further evidence of the risen Christ and the work he did with other people. His ways are so much bigger then any church. We our all just walking each other home in the body of Christ.

Wow! Michelle you are such a profound servant of god. Thank you.

Michelle and others like her are at least on the right track. However, the real truth among all the confusing books on the subject, is that the Early church had members sealed to Priesthood leaders. Joseph was NOT marrying these women. Many of these women who wrote in journals didn't understand what Joseph was asking them to do. So rumors spread about him marrying women in the temple. Today many books are written by those who oppose the church and they use these rumors as their so called evidence. Never is rumor evidence. Yes, members of the church including Brigham Young, were not perfect. Joseph was trying to teach them. So members strayed and practiced polygamy without Joseph saying it was approved by the Lord for them to do so. These sealings to Priesthood leaders came to be known as Law of Adoption sealings. They were NOT marriages. So Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. All the books written today claiming evidence of him being polygamist are nothing more than modern day rumors based on past rumor. Which is ridiculous! Joseph was only married to Emma. Period!

Michelle is excited about her discoveries, but she needs to slow down and start solidifying her thoughts!

Look, there is a misconception by most of the world including LDS members. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is NOT "founded" by Joseph Smith, nor Hyrum or any other man on Earth. Christ organized the church. However, his church exists in an imperfect world. Both leaders and other members are imperfect people just as non members are imperfect. Every individual born on Earth is born into a world that is fallen and full of opinions, confusion, greed and chaos. The purpose of Christ organizing the church is to train, teach principles and bring individuals out of the confusion and then spread the truth so that others can come out of confusion. Did Joseph see God and Christ? YES. Was he perfect? NO! Was he a polygamist? NO! Was he a Prophet? YES It is false to teach only a perfect man can be a Prophet. Even PETER denied the Savior! So stop bashing Joseph Smith and start learning truth!

Great job Michelle!

Aaron, I am LDS and I watched you have a debate with an LDS member and you knocked his socks off, you impressed me, amongst other things because of your Love for Christ. My loyalty is to Christ, truth, not narratives, men or churches.

Unreal

The Nauvoo Expositor affidavits are the smoking guns of Joseph's polygamy.

GOD ordained polygamy in the bible also to raise a righteous seed His ways are not our ways

I'm 68 and have been a member all my life. I have known that polygamy was a doctrine for the Church as far back as I can remember. When I heard that Joseph Smith was the one who received the revelation on polygamy and then proceeded to practice it, I had no trouble with it because I firmly believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, called of God, and that he would not do something that went against the morals and standards of his day without a very good reason, and that reason was because God commanded it of him. He learned early on that it was not a good idea to go against God's commandments, even though he knew that his wife Emma would not be happy about it. Regardless, when God commands, man better obey. Any member now who does not know that Joseph practiced polygamy (in it's early form) is not informed. It is not a secret and the Church has been very open about it for many years.

Great job fellas. If one could put their prejudices aside and want Jesus and the joy that comes from Jesus drawing near unto us because we are able to along with the Bible read the Book of Mormon and draw near unto Jesus -well then ones hang ups would quickly melt away. The fruits of genuine truth of Jesus await to be partaken for every genuine seeker. 🙏🙌

You ask if we can have Jesus without Joseph, but can you have Jesus without Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? What is the relationship between God and his prophets?

For the record, Michelle, in the King Benjamin sermon you referenced where the people were born again, it WAS “my way or the highway.” There are only 2 options in both King Benjamin’s and Abinadi’s sermons. That’s all he’s trying to point out. There are only two choices. So if you’re not with them (in their eyes) they assume you’re against them

Thank you Michelle for your bringing light to this topic. You articulated so well despite your thoughts running a mile a minute, you were able to retrieve and articulate all the key points to your argument. I know this is a very in depth conversation with a boat load of evidence. Your love for the Saviour is evident and your understanding of His grace meshes together the importance of sanctification by his Holy Spirit and the enabling power of following Christ who is the way the truth and the Light. Knowing that polygamy was not apart of His commandment is important knowledge for all who are trapped in this practice. ❤

Michelle keeps saying that no one said Joseph was a polygamist till 1869. She needs to stop this. John Bennett, Martha Brotherton, William Law, William Marks, the Nauvoo Expositor. Even though she discounts these sources, the sources do exist.

Aaron seems obviously scared, that if Jacob is right, his hatred for Joseph Smith and his life's purpose to generalize and bash Mormonism, is suddenly unfounded. Ironically, he has to agree with the LDS church, the brighamite doctrine, that brigham young was an honest person, in order for his quarrel to get any legit attention lol... What a predicament to be in lol

Sorry Aaron. I deleted my post yesterday when my reply wasn’t posting. It was a great scripture and I’m glad you shared it! Everyone has a different definition of evangelism and I am just clearly not on board with this method. As in all things, the Lord is the judge, not me. God bless, I’ll pray for you!

Aaron, thanks for having Michelle on! Michelle, fantastic job! That last 15 minutes or so, especially, you were on fire. I am amazed that someone who has had such a busy family life (13 children, many of them homeschooled) can be so well-read and so well-versed in the scriptures. What excuse do the rest of us have?!