Man this is so awesome. I hope the rest of your development goes well and you sell these one day lmao I'm a pretty good piano player, but I've wanted to try a janko piano for years!

The sheer level of detail, precision and organization in that CAD file alone is outstanding

The algorithm must know me. I was recently thinking about how to implement a simple velocity and after touch sensing mechanism into a 3d printed keyboard mechanism. Didn't get around to testing yet (also because i dont have an action designed) but i bought some components. Not sure about scaling though because of a round robin approach that my sensor setup would require.

Cool! I'm excited to start following this project :)

BTW, I recently got a Hammond SK1. For non-velocity sensitive sounds like organ and mono-synths it’s excellent, due to its high trigger point. I can simultaneously send different sensitivity curves on two additional MIDI channels. Unless, this is strictly for piano, it could be interesting to have a sensor on the keys, as well as on the hammer target (the nail? lol.) The high sensor enables organ-specific articulations, like percussive stabs, smears , and light-quick playing. Modern synth keys with low trigger and velocity simply don’t deliver the same results. I’m wondering if a key trigger in addition to the hammer trigger isn’t beneficial, if not necessary to control the sustain. There might be additional advantages, such as eliminating false triggers, etc. Given that you are doing a no-compromise build, having it be able to control piano or organ could be good insurance. Of course, the SK1 has waterfall keys for comfortable glisses. That might or might not work on the Janko buttons. Smears and stabs can be more percussive noise than tonal, so the lack of a diatomic row might not be a problem Another advantage of the SK1 over my Arturia KeyLab mkII is that the Hammond has nice, wide black keys. The tops on the Arturia keys is small, so it was easy to slip off. I’d imagine that the Janko layout completely eliminates the problem of slipping off of the black keys. I don’t know about glisses though. Can you slide your hand over the keys?

Very impressive!

Great work, Mike! I think it can be sort of 'optimised' as we discussed it briefly but regardless - you have done tremendous job with this!

Brilliant! I’m looking forward to seeing your next refinements!

The keys you are showing in this video are 3D printed? They look so smooth!

Nice video 👍

I really admire your work, already the parts of the prototype you've shown so far look like a masterpiece! I'm looking forward to your videos demonstrating it and hope that one day I'll also get the chance to try it out 🙂

私の知っているホールトーンレボリューションの鍵盤では、距離の差を減らすために、前後の列をアーチ状に、すなわち手前側は水平位置に奥側は上方位置に、構えることである程度解消しているそうです。 私も試しましたが、支点からの運動が直線的ではなくて曲線的であることを意識しないと、交差している半音違いの鍵盤どうしが干渉しやすい構造でもありました。三次元で考えないといけないのが難しいところです。

this is going to start a janko revival

Love the video! Very informative

The parallelogram design is brilliant. I’d love to play a standard keyboard with this geometry to experience how it feels. It might feel perfect, or odd and synthetic. I’m not sure. I bought the Kawai VPC1 specifically to get an acceptably long pivot arm. I’m very happy with it, as it feels natural and I adapt to the remaining imperfections. With multiple pads, rather than long keys, I would guess that we would be more discerning on a Janko keyboard. The brain would probably ask why this pad feels different from that one, as compared to accepting the physics of a lever. For my top keyboard, I recently bought a Hammond SK1 for its small footprint and relatively long keys. It’s hard to find long synth keys in a simple controller. The long keys seem to be reserved for the large workstations. Having the high trigger point for non-velocity sensitive sounds (like organ and classic synths) and deeper trigger with velocity when needed is ideal. One question on the parallelogram design: does this risk adding friction and stiction? A simple lever minimizes the contact points and is insensitive to angle of force. Does the design risk binding, and is it slowed by friction? I’ve wondered why piano action digital keyboards don’t do this for good feel in a small, light package. Is it just due to cost, or is it due to practical issues like friction, binding, maintenance, and longevity? Again, best wishes on your project!

It's my favorite suspense series!

Love this!

Also the Dodeka keyboard's only disadvantage is that it's reach is the same as a standard piano as opposed to the larger reach of the Janko, what you said about it having a large octave or keys that are too thin is not true. Dodeka's keys are the same as a standard piano. 7mm keys with 7mm space between the keys, so each key has 21mm of space for your fingers. And for the Janko and having no touch feedback to orient your hands to, I would think making the white and black keys either mate or gloss finish, like glossy white and mate black could make that a little remedied.

Wonderful work! I'm working on a 5 octave janko midi keyboard. I would really like to see a video on how you put together the hinges using riveting. Also, which kind of 3D print do you use? I suppose it's resin?

will you sell these

Have never seen such a great explanation! I couldn’t understand very well the isomorphism in the Janko until now.

An elegant execution of an ingenious design. Excellent work! It’s delightful to find a kindred spirit in such a niche interest. I only recently learned of the Janko layout and have been seriously weighing modifying my Yamaha P-125 against building one from scratch. (I’m a mechanical engineer and vastly better at design and 3D printing than I am at piano 🙃) From scratch seems like a serious undertaking - kudos to you for giving it a go! I can’t wait to see how it turns out!

Regarding diatonic glissandos, this could be done easily by hosting the VST in Gig Performer, which supports MIDI scripting. One might assign a pedal to switch to any alternative note mapping that you would like. It’s like having a transpose or octave switch on an electronic keyboard, but more powerful. You could also split the keyboard, with Janko on the right and Diatonic on the left.

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❓ Do you have a video how to (more or pess) easily converted the own piano (or e-piano) to this with the use of a 3D-printer?

The hickman action is better than the standard double escapement action in one thing, there is no very high friction of the knuckle/lever during escapement, which is really annoying in the standard action, also there is no friction of the knuckle/repetition lever during the key stroke in both directions, which is the main reason for the difference in down and up weight, but I am not sure if this is a good or bad thing, certainly different, it allows to set a very low down weight if you want (probably as low as 30g should work fine, which is impossible in a standard action)

I'd be super happy with 4 octave hi quality janko midi keyboard, are you planning on making and selling ?

i saw the Janko piano mf, and heard Samuel L Jackson.

Single- and double-row isomorphic layouts have still one significant issue: you cannot play fast glissandos in every key. This is an issue also for a standard layout, but not to that degree, as on traditional layout you are able to play fast glissandos only in C-major and a-minor, as only white keys are used there. Of course, fast glissandos is not something that is often used in music, but if we want to build a perfect layout, we should consider that as well. With every non-linear layouts containing only 7 keys within an octave, glissandos could be as fast as the finger action of the player, and there's always a limit to that. Dragging your finger across the keys would always be faster. There might be a solution to the fast glissandos issue. Similar problem, but from different angle, was actually solved many years ago by harp makers. Harps were always known for the possibility of playing fast glissandos, but at the same time the possibility to play in different keys, and in the process of developing western music, also changing the key fast during the play, became a necessity. 2 solutions were invented. The first one was the cross-strung harp with 2 sets of strings, one corresponding to the white keys of the piano, and the other to the black keys. This, however, has proved not too practical and now is almost unused, with only a few such harps being produced and even fewer harpist actually being able to play them. The other solution included fast retuning of the harp with 2 mechanisms: hand-operated levers for shortening each single string, and single- or double-action feet-operated pedal mechanism for retuning each string within an octave, so as many strings at once as many octaves the particular model covers. This solution, in double-action (changing each note to flat or sharp) variant to be exact, is widely used now, as it allows to retune the harp very fast to every possible key, provided it's a heptatonic scale (other scales would have to have either some strings removed or just not used) and it's an equal temperament turning. The single-action lever solution is used for smaller, cheaper or custom-made or custom-modified harps. In theory, the retuning solution is perfect, but in practice it has its drawbacks and limitations. The double-action pedal mechanism of the concert harp is extremely complex, its setting-up is very painstaking, operating 7 pedals located close to each other and having 3 settings requires additional training and very precise and careful feet movement. Too slow retuning could cause buzzing, whereas slipping the pedal could damage the harp base, because all the pedals are connected to very strong springs. Also, the mechanism usually doesn't cover all the strings, with the longest being either manually retune with the tuning pins or sometimes there are levers added to those few strings, but they allow for single-action retuning (from neutral to flat or from sharp to neutral). I'm not sure if this idea of retuning could ever be used in pianos, maybe except for fully electronic ones, but that would be a ground-breaking achievement and I really believe we can always do better. If that would ever be achieved, this could solve another issue which I can see with double-row isomorphic keyboards. Although the fingering shape is always retained for every chord, you have to inevitably change rows to be within the same key. And you have to memorize those row changes for each key, which brings back the complexity. On the other hand, the additional lower rows for thumbs are obviously a huge benefit. Also, there's another solution that for some reason was never used in keyboard instruments, but could be very handy. In computer and typewriter keyboards, some keys have special markers on them that could be felt with the fingertips. Those are usually put on F and J keys and function as reference points for all other keys, as those keys are the ones where your index fingers should rest and return to. This relates to the idea of touch typing. In case of playing keyboard instruments, a similar technique is I guess at some point achieved by professional players, but due to the larger size of the keyboard, players have to from time to time control their hand position by looking at the keyboard. But still, this is something that if used, could also make the playing much easier to learn. One last note: there are 3 interesting mechanisms which in my opinion could at least be considered if someone would like to implement some sort of retuning mechanism to a keyboard instrument. Feet could be used to much greater extent, and actually they are used when playing the pipe organ or pedal pianos (although the latter are rarely used). Pianos usually already have 2 or 3 very important pedals, but they could be moved either to a different row (as it is done in pedal pianos), or, and that's the second idea I want to present, modified so that they are operated by the knee. In pedal stell guitars there are knee-operated levers for slight changing of the pitch (similarly to the whammy bar in electric guitars). I'm not saying this knee-lever has to be used only that way, but only that knees could be used to operate additional mechanisms. And the third interesting mechanism that could be used in order to solve the retuning issue are organ stops. Those are drawn knobs next to the exact keyboard. In the pipe organ, stops turn on and off particular sets of pipes, even when playing a piece, and even for a subset of keys in the keyboard. This makes it probably the best option for a retuning mechanism, although it could be extremely difficult if it were to be mechanical. But if it was done for pipe organs and harps, so I guess it cannot be impossible. In my opinion, the piano, as well as many other instruments, still needs some work. Instruments are usually created in order to sound perfect, cover all standard keys, and preferably have some nice effects. But the easiness or logicallnes of playing is almost never considered. Leave well alone, as they say. Nevertheless, it's amazing that someone is actually revising those alternative layouts and trying to build their own piano. Good luck - I'll keep my fingers crossed.

If due to retire shortly and plan to learn the rudiments of keyboard playing. I may have left it a tad late in life and may have to abandon this project, but would you recommend this style of keyboard for someone in my position over the more conventional form?

I want one.

I'm about to follow this channel with great interest...

For the VST host, consider Gig Performer. Just have the keyboard put out MIDI, and let Gig Performer handle the rest. It supports scripting, so you could map most any tuning or micro tuning to the keys that you might like. Another consideration is key trigger points. For piano sounds, you definitely want velocity, etc. For organ and non-velocity sensitive synths, it’s better to trigger immediately, so you can get sounds with light, fast playing. Some Hammond digital organs have multiple trigger points, and they send the note on messages from the various triggers on different MIDI channels. The high end Hammonds trigger the tone wheels progressively with the different triggers. In the 80s, I owned a Juno 60. I was frustrated that modern controllers don’t feel nearly as good, and recently learned that it was due to the Juno’s medium-long pivot arms and high trigger. For piano, I own a Kawai VPC1, with grand piano action. It’s luxurious for piano, but completely wrong for organ and old-school synths.

Wow! What a cool project. The Janko keyboard seems like the perfect example of a superior system that failed to oust an older standard because the cost of switching (i.e. converting the world's pianos and retraining the world's pianists) would be too high. And I've often thought that it would be possible to build a digital piano myself (perhaps salvaging the action from a normal piano with a cracked bridge or something), but here you are actually doing it! I'll be watching your progress with excitement.

Great work thanks for the vid!

Nice program!

Hi! I was looking for this. Where are you from? I need to speak to you by email or something. Thanks. Mauro

Great work, Mишa! Nice to see such a dedication to a Jankò derivative keyboard. It is a lot what you have done!