checkmate

it was and still is i rly shouldnt have done that lol

i just wish somebody would make a technical breakdown of this map, i am very interested in how it works :p

if you've played any of my maps, you know that I don't make elaborate puzzles. like, the most elaborate puzzles I've made were in the most recently released pack, and it was kinda just a few strawberries where you have to figure out what tech to apply where & some stuff working with spike jump mechanics & zip movers. the most complicated puzzle stuff i've made is definitely way simpler than any of the maps mentioned in the video.

id say a combination of those 2, theyre closer to typical celeste maps that still have real platforming challenge (for the most part) with 'normal' gameplay, while also having conceptual challenge from the routing and finding the correct way to beat a room. they def feel more like regular celeste maps compared to "true" puzzle maps that play very differently. tho again this entire concept of a routing map isnt well defined and is mostly just Vibes so i can see why this is confusing

uh oh

oh accidental ig i ddint change it after reediting the video at some point, . ,.,.,.,,

yeah its awesome! also i assume you meant to post this comment on the puzzle map video and not this one lmao

@@seazeiscool lmao actually yeah, I was watching them on a PC and pulled it up on my phone to comment

okay i added all in the description, hopefully didnt miss anything !

@@seazeiscool amazing, thank you

oh you are right im stupid, ill add them to description in a bit when i feel like it

okay i added them !

@@seazeiscool :happylandeline: thank you!

I don't know which puzzle games you played, but the ones I played there were many levels where the solution was so complex that, after figuring it out, it still takes a "few minutes of faff and error" to input the solution correctly by not doing any mistake. I haven't played many puzzle games with undo buttons. I don't see how it's any different from a map like Dropzle, where you will not really die from the hazards after figuring out a solution. I also have a hard time to understand how the celeste engine is, to you, horrible and awkward for making puzzles and that making a puzzle in celeste is "sacrificing" the idea in your opinion. Many maps have proven that you can make a crystal clear puzzle concept in Celeste.

everything darkleviathan8 said in the replies which i dont need to repeat + it is very important to emphasise how much all of these maps would break in a non celeste environment. stuff like Break My Ivory Tower can ONLY work as a celeste map, they use celeste mechanics and your expectation of knowing how they work, the point is to mess around with Celeste mechanics and use those in clever ways using your knowledge of it. similarly with BABA IS DREAM, PERCEPTIONS, Labyrinth Mu etc. and then ofcourse the routing maps like Crystal Garden or Birdsong or the TAS maps also ONLY work in Celeste and would never work as a new game. none of these maps can really work outside of celeste (aside from Dropzle which is more like sokoban ig which it kinda suffers from and Maze Of Glass which doesnt suffer from being in celeste at all anyways). it is so important to emphasise that these maps Only Work in Celeste why would you ever use puzzlescript for any of these. part of this comment very much implies that there's a good puzzle idea that is then ruined by being in celeste, even though the only reason the idea is good or even functional at all is because they're IN celeste, with the movement of the game and its entities. (most of) these maps clearly would not work in a different / new game, many of them rely on mechanics in celeste and using those in clever ways, and would simply not exist if they were part of a game made from scratch, without the movement and depth of mechanics interactions available in celeste. it feels like your complaints more apply to sc/sj puzzle maps (which i can agree those are tedious and kinda not super well made, especially Dropzle which is def one of the worse maps in the video, tho idk how much experience u have outside of sc sj) but basically every other map i can not possibly understand why youd want to make a new game for something that clearly is built For Celeste. the only map in this video that Could work as a separate game is Maze Of Glass, EXCEPT that map actually does not suffer from being in celeste at all and would play the exact same outside of celeste or really in any game, so in that case its still perfectly fine to use celeste as a medium for what its doing. also: important to say while there is no undo button for the ones that could benefit from one (which isnt all of them fyi) you can just, use savestates? i used savestates to skip tedious repetitions of movement and its perfectly fine to do so if you want to!

From my point of view, it seems like this problem is more specific to (or at least more prevalent in) Dropzle and Crystal Enigma, which I can definitely get behind since both have a level of tedium that make them frustrating to me. Crystal Enigma has you wait for moving platforms to move while Dropzle has a reliance on dashless movement to get around if you don't want to immediately fail the puzzle as well as a very high potential for missed dash inputs in some rooms. This wouldn't matter to me so much if the puzzles were more simple, which they are in the start of both maps, but by the end they both have one puzzle that takes nearly an entire minute just to execute, not to mention the various ways both can be messed up. I do not think this clunkiness applies to all possible puzzle maps, but in my eyes it definitely applies to these two. Even though it has some of the same problems on a smaller scale, Gift from the Stars, the last of the 3 puzzle maps I've ever played, was a lot more palatable and I actually enjoyed it simply because it felt like there was more of a reason for it to be in Celeste - it played like an actual Celeste level instead of a puzzle test chamber. But honestly, I wouldn't dislike those two maps if they were just placed in a context that made sense instead of being part of a (relatively) casual platforming experience, ruining the quick pace of most people's beginner lobby playthroughs. I don't like the implication that these maps will take about the same amount of effort as their neighbors when they require a higher caliber of skill in a completely different skillset. Even as someone who plays puzzle games, though I can acknowledge the puzzle design of Dropzle is very clever, its complexity just gets lost on me when I'm tired and in the mood for platforming. I would like to see some sort of puzzle collab in the future, I think it could encourage mappers to explore new ideas and maybe even new styles of puzzle mapping while also providing a good space for those maps.

What are your opinions on maps where Celeste movement and mechanics are integrated into the solving of the map, like Kokodoko (or however it's spelled) and Labyrinth Mu? As has been stated already, these maps can't exist with their design outside of Celeste. Like, I get that Labyrinth Mu is more of a routing challenge than a real puzzle but Kokodoko (sp) from what I've seen is equal parts Celeste movement and routing. I dunno. Maybe the marriage of movement and thinking is a pretty specific flavor with a very small audience. But I think there's a lot of potential for design there that can only happen in this game.

correct me if im wrong, but does “annoyinng seperation and abstraction between inputs & gamestate, where theres no undo button, and extra minutes of faff and error” still apply to lots of notable puzzle games in the genre? the portal series comes to mind immediately - its made in valves’ engines, those which up until that point had supported solely shooter games, and you can tell! theres no undo button, and the main mechanic is still a gun, yet portal 1 and 2 have still cemented themselves as iconic games in the puzzle genre! good puzzles can still come out of mediums which arent built around them inherently, i love this game to bits and i wouldnt choose making puzzles in its engine any other way

this but for center cam tbh but then i had a very good idea, i used ctrl+m. See, using ctrl+m gave me a whole new perspective and i was able to see a touch switch i couldn't have seen before

how did this meme get into a celeste video's comment section

@@dorijanlendvaj8356 because kenadian is awesome