10 MISGUIDED AXEL LEARNING METHODS

[@pit9623]

"its not the best terminology in my opinion" cool saying Gary 👍very diplomatic

[@celkaskates2374]

Please, post more videos like this ❤ 😊

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Will do, Celka, and thanks for bringing up Tuktamysheva's triple Axel. It is a marvellous jump.

[@ianscott9797]

Don't stop I love your videos you actually break down the process itself in detail. That's the only way to learn

[@fredpisarski6594]

Hi Gary, really neat dialog, great to have a physics guy at the round table. Transfer of wt I think I get. Take the rink as the space we graph. Your launch pt has your mass (or wt since mg=wt) at the get go. At the height of the jump your mass is in the sky somewhere, so you have moved or transferred your wt. . I find imagery as a helpful tool to making things happen in ballet, skating or any physical undertaking. If someone tells me to put my body at some pt 20 feet in the air I like the solid goal(even if unattainable) to reach for. The great John Misha Petkovich and Robin Cousins are the most beautiful axelers I have seen. With scoring emphasizing rotation, I think (at least) we have lost a lot of the beauty in the sport.

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Yes, of course, Fred, you can transfer your weight in any lateral direction or up, or a combination thereof when you are in contact with the Earth, but when airborne, there is no transfer of weight of the body as a whole, even though you can change body shape with inviolable compliance to the laws of nature that Isaac Newton so perspicaciously described. Petkovich and Cousins indeed had beautiful and memorable single Axels. No need for high speed rotation for a huge wow factor!

[@fredpisarski6594]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater but if you take center of mass as position of wt, that changes with body position. So in a way you can transfer your wieght even with no contact with earth. The reaction force of course is all within the bodies stresses and where they change within the musculature.

[@fredpisarski6594]

I finally realized the problem. From the earth's reference frame one sees the skater's(let's just follow his center of mass) trajectory as a simple arc launch to land. Ballistics 101. Now let's put the reference frame on the skater. So the reference frame is moving w.r.t. to earth. Since the skater necessarily has his center of mass over one leg at launch and necessarily has it over the the other leg at land, he has changed his posture around his center of mass without disturbing its trajectory. So the referred to transfer of weight is only a thing w.r.t. the skaters reference frame, the weight goes from over one leg to over the other. All forces exerted and absorbed are contained in the skaters musculature, totally independent of the earth which feels only the launch and the land. I think we can put it to rest now unless you see something else interesting. Thank you for the mind excursion. Skating can be so interesting.

[@RichardLennon-dm5ef]

You Still have Ability to do it , just Take care Always ,Richard 🙂 Thank you ⚘️

[@Yesenia694]

Gary felicidades excelente ejecución y clase de giros. Eres genial bendiciones siempre angelito. ❤

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Gracias por tus amables palabras!

[@davidgibson8165]

I have some photos of Ilia’s single Axel warm up for triple that I can send to you. He drives the knee up then gets extra height as he pushed the right foot down. With the older method of knee up it’s my assumption that the “h” turns into a sideways bent leg because of the rotation started from the edge and with the later technique skaters are taught to turn the leg in sooner which lessens the height of the jump. From my experience when doing delayed axels I used to strive for having my freeleg straight out in front of my body but never quite achieved it because of the rotation on the take off so I was a bit sideways when my leg was straight out. So having gone through that I am thinking that the turning in if the leg is overly emphasized as some don’t understand that getting a perfect “h” is not likely to happen but should be strived for rather than rotating the leg in so early making for a spinny take off

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Thanks for sending, Dave. This is undeniably an "h" position, but not as extreme as many coaches teach. It is closer to what I would refer to as a relaxed free leg. Also, at what point do you capture this still out of the video? If you watch Ilia Malinin's quad Axel, he starts with the free leg a little more bent than I would recommend, but then straightens it somewhat as it swings through and climbs. Perhaps the bend happens when he brings it back in to close the legs for rotation? Regardless, the knee bend does not increase the overall height of the limb, but rather decreases it.

[@somedude23]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkateri think the “h” position many people see from great axels even in yours is due to inertia . Since the free leg is swung and relaxed , it swings like a pendulum with a turn out headed in one direction , but since the upper body is passing into the rotation, the thigh and knee is going into it as well since it’s in front of you , which leaves the lower part of the leg from knee down to the boot to drag behind as it has weight and to kind of be left behind creating this bend in the knee , people may see this on TV or KZbin without looking at different camera angles or the nature in which the free leg moves which is that it swings at an obtuse angle at first but then as the torso passes through the angle becomes more acute. People may see this and have the misconception.

[@somedude23]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkaterI also believe that swinging it relaxed works better , since the boot itself has weight , swinging the leg as a whole with the boot being the outermost point of circle that it swings gives more upward momentum rather than just the knee

[@jlcmsw]

Did anyone watch the US sectionals? I was surprised at how many young skaters made these mistakes. Several skaters telegraphed their axels to the point where they were on a steep outside edge, which clearly led to mistakes. There were waxels and wraps and I wonder why the coaches would allow their skaters to continue in skating without addressing these mistakes.

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Excellent point, Jen. There is incompetence everywhere. It is part of our challenge as athletes or parents to discern incompetence.

[@CanFreeSkate]

For easier reference: 0:33 Doing Axel off the ice 1:34 Telegraphing pauses 4:55 No turnout 6:36 Standing too high then falling onto the takeoff 7:30 Bend free leg before the swing 8:46 Skidding at takeoff 10:00 Skating forward into the jump 11:15 Free leg passes skating leg too close 12:32 "h" position 14:19 Transfer your weight 17:10 Q&A

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Thanks very much for this, CanFreeSkate!!!!!!!!!! This is the sort of thing I should consider doing in the initial comments accompanying the video.

[@user-kh9ki3kq8m]

I’ve found that it’s a lot easier for me to snap down into my axel from an h-position (really more like a peeing dog position for lack of a better word, with the free knee bent and free foot flexed) rather than having my leg straight and letting my foot get out away from me. It may just be my particular muscle distribution that affects it, but when I kick out to the side with my leg straighter I don’t usually get as much height or control. Also in my mind it could create a bit too much forward lean if you don’t match that trajectory with your upper body as well. Really I just have trouble getting my feet together so keeping them a bit closer from the beginning really helps me get into a tighter air position. (I also do artistic inline so it may affect it slightly, but i’ve found the technique is almost identical to ice skating aside from a few differences.) Not really a criticism of your skating knowledge so much as a reflection of my personal skating and strengths/weaknesses!

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

My coach, Sheldon Galbraith, did advocate the turned-in position you describe, even if he did not use the same simile! Getting rid of the turn out does allow a tighter air position. The wider free leg swing without bending the knee so much does require significant adductor strength to close the legs in the air, so your point is well taken. The very same principles apply to inline technique, except that we can't use as deep edges without slipping, right? Thanks for this comment. You make a good general point that we have to tailor our technique sometimes to our strengths and weaknesses.

[@user-kh9ki3kq8m]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkaterThe depth of an edge you can get kind’ve depends on the hardness and profile of your wheels combined with the surface in my opinion. The only thing that’s really not possible is a skid takeoff, though I do usually rock up to my toe stop as I leave the ground. A pure edge takeoff is possible and i’m working toward it but it’s pretty finicky and easy to turn into a waxel 😅

[@SaccoBelmonte]

Man!! I love this one. Knowing the no-nos is to me a lot more important than a random lesson on Axel. About the H shape: Maybe is to help getting more heigh by helping with momentum, in the same way you lift your arms from behind?

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

The popularity of this video confirms your attitude about no-nos, SaccoBelmonte. You are correct about getting more upward momentum by aspiring for the h position. However, another comment agrees with my analysis that this is a hip action and not a knee action.

[@davidgibson8165]

Like Kaz I was taught the “h” position. My thinking is that because the leg has weight that is swinging upward the jumper can use that momentum of leg weight to get the 2nd up or extra lift when reversing it downward while stretching the body upward through the top of the head. There must be a term in physics for this motion. High jumpers drive the knee up and if you were to jump off the ground using one leg you would get more height by swinging the non jumping knee upward just as you would also use your arms for more lift. With jumping on the ice using edges and vaulting action with speed across the ice the arm and freeleg swing has minimal advantage for lifting but still commonly used. I guess it also needs to be assessed as to how much swing is necessary, maybe the full “h” isn’t helpful. I think that learning the “h”helped me to develop a delayed and open Axel as I was used to getting the knee through and up front. Now days the knee is taught to be turned inward as it goes through to help start rotation earlier as it isn’t necessary for and also can hinder achieving a triple Axel. But there is also the idea that the skater learns to delay the rotation for the single Axel then as they progress toward the triple they start the rotation earlier on the way up. Waiting for your feedback 😊

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Hi Dave, and nice to see you here again! Your analyses is definitely instructive from a physics perspective. The second lift you refer to would be Newton's 3rd Law. If something goes down, something else must go up. However, bending the knee, as another commentator points out, does not contribute to the upward motion, but rather the opposite. Allowing the free leg to be a hip action only does allow maximum upward momentum of the free leg. But thinking of the h position does at least encourage the free leg to pass through. There are some triple axels that do not employ this strategy, instead getting right into the back spin from the free leg behind position. I am seeking the ideal, and we might look to Ilia Malinin's quad to get an idea of what that is.

[@ianscott9797]

Ok so can the next video focus in on upper body positioning? Q&A

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

I already covered this in the Q and A with Ryoko, but I could go into more detail in the future, Ian. It will not be the next video, because I already have a backlog, but I will add it to the list for future shootings. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@ianscott9797]

@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater well you don't stop what you are doing! I love how you challenge things that do not make sense! What video did you go over the uper body I might have missed that one I have really long arms and legs but I am not fat.

[@Bluesruse]

13:45 From a physics point of view, I would imagine that the higher you can get your center of mass before leaving the ground, the less energy needed to jump a certain height (less potential energy difference). So you could potentially (pun intended) jump higher, have more air time, etc. But I'm not sure this "h" position necessarily even achieves this, because it leaves a lot of mass from knee down actually lower than having a "regular" axel take off. At least to me seems that way. And from a skating point of view, I don't see the point of that "h" position either. Feels redundant to move your leg up like that only to straighten it immediately afterwards. Maybe it comes from the illusion of seeing the jump from a certain angle, or just the fact that people do one legged jumps with that type of bent leg. Perhaps people think of doing that sort of position, but aren't really? Do people _actually_ jump axels like this? I don't know... Anyway, thanks for another great video!

[@ic3ball738]

This technique probably was derived from off-ice axels. I've seen it being taught for waltz jumps but personally I've never seen someone jumping a real axel with a clear h position with their free leg. It's either really high, somewhat bent free leg swing or a low swing with really quick snap before leaving the ice

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

You make a few excellent points here, Bluesruse, the first of which rebuts Dave's take on the "h", and the second of which is a key example of the philosophy of learning, namely what we think of doing and what we actually do are not always equal. Thanks for weighing in. You have great potential!

[@celkaskates2374]

What do you think about the takeoff with one arm in front, like the one Tuktamysheva does?

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

That shoulder in front does confirm the technique I describe in this video. Some skaters enter into the jump with the arm more in front possibly with the theory that arm cranking can help initiate rotation. However, since the Axel is a one-footed take-off, this is a misguided strategy. More important about Tuktamysheva's fabulous triple Axel is that she is exhibit A for my number 1 Axel fundamental that I describe in a previous video. She steps right on a deep forward outside edge for the take-off, which entails the holding back of the rotation and the left shoulder in front. She hardly swings the arms at all on the take-off, which for me would not give as good a jump, but it does exemplify the principle of reducing unnecessary motion. And she does support my theory of taking off with the arms in a wide position rather than tucked in close to the body. Also, she uses the free leg perfectly in my opinion.

[@sisyphuslifts690]

12:44 Just for general life use by anyone, skater or otherwise

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

I feel as frustrated as poor Sisyphus trying to make sense of your comment. Please clarify for my pea brain.

[@sisyphuslifts690]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater I'm sure there's no sense to my comment that you're missing. I wanted to time stamp that moment in your video because of the visceral sincerity with which you asked "why...?" Your candor was in regards to skating, but it's delightfully universal. Had I known that a skater I've long admired and respected would actually read and respond to that, I would have made much better use of both our brains. No peas involved. Thanks for the videos and the insight!

[@pit9623]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater Gary 😂👍

[@icestar49]

Still trying to correct y axel Gary.. 😃

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Be persistent. Review other Axel videos, and practice all the drills I recommend.

[@CanFreeSkate]

Thank you for posting, Gary :) About your point of 'Not bending free leg before the swing': I think that Ilia Malinin does bend his free leg, at least on a video that I posted of his 4A jump: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5uqk2lsgseMd68. About the 'h' position: I think, unlike for the other listed (backward-takeoff) jumps, the Axel is usually taught as taking off with a 'climb one's pony' or 'karate kick' action of the free leg. It does resemble the 'h' position, but is very different. About the point of 'Transfer one's weight': I have to disagree with you. For simplicity's sake: If I stand at rest only on one leg, then switch to the other leg and stand at rest, surely there is a weight transfer. My body's center of gravity has to shift from above one foot's footprint over the other so that I cannot fall. I strongly believe that it is the same for the case of the leg-shifting jumps, such as hopscotch, or on the ice, the Axel. In classical mechanics, one could consider a skater's mass as concentrated around a single point to answer certain problems. In such cases, there is no weight shifting, since the point's horizontal dimension is zero. However, for problems involving rotations of the skater, I think the 3-D model would be more useful. Then, the skater's weight shifting is apparent. Thank you again for your video series. I thoroughly enjoy your posts! :)

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

Yes, indeed, CanFreeSkate, Ilia does bend the free leg. As I mentioned in my video analysis, this can help with extra upward momentum as that knee extends, but I do not recommend it for learning Axel, since it adds complexity and so can overwhelm learners if the timing is not accurate. Your "h" analysis I concur in as far as the hip orientation. The problem of making the "h" on as a more 2-D shape on a plane with no turn-out is what I often see, and is far from ideal. Also, such recommended bend is often excessive. Regarding "weight shift", changing from one foot to the other on the ground is an example of weight shift, but the weight shift that skaters refer to in jumps happens in the air. Such weight shift is impossible, at least for the centre of mass, which travels through space on a parabolic trajectory like all projectiles. You can modify the shape of your body around that centre of mass--which is always a point--so that the blade is tracing a back outside edge relative to the centre of mass, like in a proper back spin. Then you will land on that back outside edge. I am not sure what you could mean by 3-D model. Further, slippery ice cannot be compared to the hopscotch tarmac. We want to jump straight up without trying to push ourselves forward on take-offs. Our speed across the ice continues, but it is a mistake to try to add speed on a jump take-off and shift weight at that crucial moment. Thank you for taking the time to make this comment. This is the sort of feedback that I encourage, since I am not trying to win any arguments or give the final word, but rather seek better insights into optimum technique and how to achieve it.

[@CanFreeSkate]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater Thank you for clarifying, Gary. About the last point (shifting weight or not): If we accept that a hopscotch jump - which lands on the other foot than the take-off foot - involves a weight shift, then, say, a waltz jump would also; and so would an Axel, Toeloop, Salchow or Lutz jump. I agree with you that the shift does not take place after the jumper leaves the ice; it has to be initiated at the take-off. The jumper uses the take-off blade's edge or its toepicks to counter the ice's slipperiness, similar to a hopscotch jumper (or high jumper) using the friction between the tarmac and his/her take-off foot/shoe. Again, thank you very much for your videos, analyses and comments. :)

[@RichardLennon-dm5ef]

I agree " H " position * I don't acaccept in technique **

[@linkchen8245]

I think the sport is constantly evolving, in your opinion, if you ppl figured out how to do axel with the most efficient technique a long time ago, why did nobody land the 4A until a couple years ago and only one person can do it consistently? Is it only because Ilia is physically much better than all other athletes in the sport? I say this because I do see the height (80+cm) and how fast he is rotating, this def comes with very modern style of training and at least his body can take it without breaking.

[@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater]

The sport is indeed evolving, but the ideal technique is immutable, even if inscrutable. Physics and biomechanics does not change. It is only our understanding of it that changes. I would say that our understanding of ideal technique has actually deteriorated since figures were dropped. This deficiency of understanding has been more than offset however by off-ice jump harness spinners, which have trained skaters physically and psychologically to spin in tighter positions at higher speeds. Ilia's body has taken it so far, but his harsh, wobbly landings do not frankly bode well for the longevity of his career. So many of these quad jumpers are sidelined with short careers, hip operations, back problems, and burn-out. His first quad Axel was a fitting metaphor: he can't do a proper bracket, but he can land the first quad Axel! However, to be fair, the jump itself is exemplary. It has been a monumental feat, especially considering its consistency. Bravo, Ilia!

[@linkchen8245]

@@GaryBeacom-FigureSkater I totally agree with you. Using or taking advantage of the law of physics is different from abusing the human body. I think most ppl who know about this sport are very concerned that Ilia is going to hold up well. It is not the fault of athletes and coaches who are using the training method to try to be competitive and go to the top. Because the organization started pushing it a while ago. The athletes and coaches had to choose to follow otherwise they were left out. I have this feeling that there is just so much excellent talent involved in this sport that ppl who are making decisions about rules are not competent enough to handle.