12. Paul's persepective on Adam and Jesus - Rom 5

[@ruachianhymnody]

Thanks so much for this Andre. It has been helpful in ways you may not have imagined. As I'm entering a professional mold, one in which one is supposed to be a person already possessing virtues that flow effortlessly from within one's person, I'm so well aware of the mess I'm in. The tendency is to enter depression and wallow in it, but something about the trajectory of all the posts in this series stirs an alternative imagination; the inkling of a subversive vision of what existence means that is just so damn awesome I feel like leaning into life in a wise, gentle, humorous way that just gives me the grace and grit to just enter whatever is next without sleepwalking.

[@Alwaysloved]

Thank you John. Such a encouragement to know that the aim of these videos - to open up the beautiful new possibilities - is finding resonance.

[@Savanahrose1956]

I see/understand what Andre is saying. Since coming to the Lord in 1977, I have come to see the bible has many many many layers in it. There were many times I would hear something and completely reject it. But years later the Lord gave me revelation of that very thing and helped me to walk into it as my reality. And that is the thing. It has to become your reality. It cannot be kept in the head. The first layer when the bible is first read it is just a history of Christianity of the world. There is just enough in it for us to realize that we are in need of salvation ourself. The next layer is when read after receiving Christ into our heart. Now when we read the bible it is more on a spiritual level. We see things in there spiritually that we never saw before. We come to see that we are in need of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The next layer is when we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Now the bible is the written WORD. It is the LIVING WORD. Which it always was but now we are seeing spiritual meanings that we never saw before. The scriptures are Truth and Spirit. And now are being interpreted to us by the Holy Spirit not by man. And this is where MOST STOP. They never go beyond this level. Because they think they have made it. They are saved filled with the Holy Spirit. What more can there be? After all didn't Jesus come to save us from our sins. Now all we have to do is grow up and mature and wait to go to heaven after we die. This is so so sad. But I used to be there. Used to believe the very same thing. But this is not it ! I have come over the years, especially since the early 2000's to see that there are many many deeper layers in the bible. Layers that need to be experienced. Most times cannot even be spoke about as they are not understood in normal religious circles at all. I have come to see that every story in the bible has to take place within each one of us as the KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN. Jesus did not say "follow me" at the beginning of His Life IN GOD, when he was 12 years old. That is why we didn't hear anymore about him till he was 30. Those years were spent. Growing up and maturing in God. At the point where most people stop is where Jesus said "follow me". Then He walked His disciples through the deeper things of God. That is why he spoke in parables to the multitudes and explained clearly to the disciples. So they would follow His example. He was the WAY, (the way shower), And they could also become way showers. Every thing we read in the NT must become our reality WITHIN. He is the Way, The Truth, The Life. He is the Word that became flesh and THE WORD must become flesh within each one of us. The NT is not just a book of stories for us to read and see what Jesus Life was like way back then. It is an example for us to follow. Every story ! Must become OUR STORY. Jesus was a man just like we are. All that Jesus did and was is possible for us as well. Christ IN US OUR HOPE OF GLORY ! Jesus said "there will be Christ's and saviour's" He said "is it not written that you are god's?" He is King of kings and Lord of lord's. We can't allow fear to hold us back from being all we can be in Christ Jesus. All we were created to be. We were created in the image and likeness of God. God is Spirit. Not "a" spirit. But Spirit. That is the Image of God. And we were created in His Image. Outward flesh and blood body is not it. That is just a tent that houses Spirit. All things visible is a type and shadow. Not reality. Spirit is OUR REALITY.

[@77goanywhere]

Very interesting. I understand that the meaning of the story of Adam and Eve has multiple layers, but this does not mean that there was not a literal Adam. To hold the view that Adam is purely a metaphor invites the error of considering Jesus as a metaphor as well. As in Adam all died, in Christ all are made alive. Only a surrender to the myth of evolution of the human race necessitates relegating Adam to a metaphor.But evolution is fraught with unresolvable problems of it's own, so should not be any basis for rejecting an interpretation of Genesis as being at least generally historical. I consider the view that Adam and Eve were real human beings is in no way a barrier to understanding them and their experiences as a type of the experience of all humanity, and as such also metaphorical. A major problem with relegating Adam to being a metaphor is where does the metaphor end and the historical narrative in Genesis begin? I don't present this view in an antagonistic spirit, but only as my personally held view.

[@Alwaysloved]

Hi Steve and thank you for your thoughts. Regarding the literature we have of Adam and Jesus, there is no way they are comparable. The genre of the Adam stories include talking animals and magical trees, whereas the literature concerning Jesus have multiple sources with remarkable correspondence between them of what Jesus said and did. An excellent book that explores this specific question in detail is "The evolution of Adam" by Peter Enns amzn.to/2xc1gXx More resources here: alwaysloved.net/2018/03/26/genesis-of-better-questions/

[@77goanywhere]

@@Alwaysloved Thank you. I will look up the resources. A question I have is why did Paul use the specific parallel between the "one man Adam" through whom sin came and in whom all died, and the "one man Jesus Christ" in whom all are made alive?

[@77goanywhere]

@@TheGraceConnection Exactly. This is a major problem for those who want the first 3 chapters of Genesis to somehow be metaphorical to allow for their understanding of science and rational criticism to stand, but will admit increasingly historical validity as the narrative progresses. But the distinction is often muddled and blurred. I am inclined to stand with a multi-layered view of Genesis, where the narrative may have some symbolic or metaphorical intonation, and may even have been somewhat distorted in some ways, but nevertheless supported by a sound historic framework which remains honored by Jesus himself and the New Testament revelation. Many narratives in Genesis have been shown to carry historic weight in spite of resistance or mockery in earlier times. I would recommend watching the documentary Is Genesis History? to get some perspective on this. Is Genesis History? g.co/kgs/xwMqjB As I say, I do not discount the view of a multi-layered interpretation of Genesis in some areas, but without rejecting it's valid overall historical framework.