124 - 21st Century Light Attack

The F-35 Lightning II, a trillion-dollar, highly capable 5th generation fighter, has been described by the U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff as a Ferrari which, "you don’t drive to work every day, you only drive it on Sundays." If so, what do we drive to work the rest of the week?
On this episode, Samuel "Spam" Milam, a retired U.S. Air Force Colonel who now works for the Sierra Nevada Corporation, joins us to describe the modern light attack aircraft that are simple, cheap, and easy to fly. Aircraft like the A-29 Super Tucano, AT-6 Wolverine, and AT-802 Air Tractor match high tech systems and weapons with low cost and ease of operation, resulting in a compelling solution for low grade conflicts, particularly for nations with limited defense spending.
Listener questions covered include fighter aircraft operation in icing conditions, what happens to pilots when a squadron is disestablished, afterburner use noise concerns for surrounding communities, and the process involved in becoming the TOPGUN threat aircraft subject matter expert. Be sure to check out the Blue Angels Decades project here: blueangelsdeca...
Episode artwork by Janek Krause. Bumper music by Jaime Lopez / announcements by Clint Bell.

[@eddiecharles6457]

Yeah! The A-29 Super Tucano is awesome although the A-1 Skyraider still owns my heart.

[@dgax65]

How many airframe hours did we put on the F/A-18, F-16, F-15E and B-1B over the last two decades? If we had an AT-6, A-29 or OV-10X capability for CAS over those years we might not have been burning out the high-capability airframes.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Possibly, but I’m sure you’d open up the other conversation about continuing to own/maintain those airframes without using them fully. No win scenario!

[@AudiA6Q]

@@FighterPilotPodcast yeah, but they are prematurely retiring the B-1B because the loitering for CAS missions stressed the wings for a mission it wasn't designed for. And theres no other supersonic bomber capability coming anytime soon

[@RobertSantos-rw8dy]

Greeting from Thailand. The F-5s are still in Thailand's AF.

[@dksl9899]

5th Gen Community: What... ARE you? A-29 (smokes narco convoy): "I'M VENGEANCE."

[@ja37d-34]

Was about to hit the gym, needed something to listen to - so perfect! ;)

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

💪

[@ja37d-34]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Spam felt incredibly professional and knowledgable. I really love how you get these top notch guests. :) lol, Jell-O, you are so humble.. Pretty sure there are quite a few ladies that would find you "sexy". Too bad for them you are happily married! I love your style, even that too humbled-ness.. :)

[@ja37d-34]

By the way, I think you should simply open up the assembly line for the Skyraiders again. Gorgeous plane.. Can carry it all, well, probably could now too.. Can stay up there.. Now that would be cool! in Navy Blue of course! :D

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@ja37d-34 😍

[@okisoba]

Didn't we already try something like this with the OV-10? I guess if it can actually be cheap and can defend against easily accessible manpads and whatnot then a cheap FAC(A) and CAS asset would be great against low budget "nefarious actors".

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

It was brought back to provide support for SOCOM in Syria but after one year it was shelved again as the costs to operate aircraft that old are pretty high.

[@spacebear49]

Understandably unlikely to happen, but it's fun to ponder the thought of some USMC A-29's alongside the F-35B and helos on board the straight-deck carriers.

[@casuallatecomer7597]

Suppose they select the A-29 anyway, would their wings fold like the old WW2 fighters and such? Would be quite the site to see in the 21st century.

[@nickforster748]

Another great episode! The A-29 sounds perfect for the Air Commando role as described. Congratulations to “Boat” on his command upgrade! I heard a joke that as co-pilots, we are used to “looking left” when we don’t have the answer but that initially as you take the left seat, all you see your own reflection in the window looking back at you! 😉 Seriously though, I’m sure he’ll ace the upgrade with a fighter pilot’s drive for continual improvement & excellence. I didn’t realise that he was an Aggressor too! 💪🏻

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks Nick, appreciate your listenership and kudos!

[@indy500tabasco8]

Mix of valuable info, humor, ease of language, friendly approach, non-aggressive attitude make FFP the best in business. Great job by hosts❤ & guests❤

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

🙏

[@tarmacpounder785]

Don’t worry, Boat. It should take only a couple of sim sessions for you to get the hang of flying a stick with the left hand. We used to joke on our left seat upgrade sim sessions about the danger of getting it all backwards on go-arounds and unconsciously shoving the sidestick forward and retarding thrust levers LOL

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Ha, I remember that with my upgrade partner as well!

[@HabitualButtonPusher]

The Navy’s VAL-4 Black Ponies were pretty much the must effective close support 911 force the US had in Vietnam backed up by the Sea Wolves. Not to mention the Marines and Air Force’s former use of OV-10s

[@hanschristianben505]

great episode here sir Jello! and speaking of light attack (and you guys mentioned it in this episode as well) I sure hope you could feature the OV-10 Bronco on a future episode... my dad flew them during his service with the Philippine Air Force (one of the first guys to fly it locally) which is now the last military branch in the world to still operate it in combat, most recently during the Battle of Marawi where they fought ISIS affiliated bastards...

[@raylauderback5126]

Excellent show, as always! Such a great topic, but it did generate a question from me: Would it be possible to do a show in the future discussing the actual costs of training pilots and maintainers, as well as the operating costs of various airframes used in our armed services? This may be a rather dry topic, but seems like a relevant one, none the less. Maybe include comparisons between light and heavy attack fighters, as well as rotor wing assets? Thank for the great work👍

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

We can definitely try to find someone, but not sure it would need discussion beyond just the “what’s included” question.

[@raylauderback5126]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Understood. Seems like a breakdown of what the costs are to operate as a top-tier airpower would be interesting. The numbers have to be staggering, though. Thanks for the follow up!👍

[@brunogrou1501]

As a Long time fan of the show, it's great to see the first Brazilian on The Fighter Pilot Podcast. Hearing now, keep up the good work Jello!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Will do, Bruno!

[@modscientist9793]

What a fantastic and interesting episode thanks jello

[@michaelmulligan0]

Really interesting points of view there. One thing that many smaller nations also need is air policing capability (which you really need a cheap jet for)

[@USNRaptor]

Did I miss the part about it being armored? What kind of damage it can take? Important quality when low and slow.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Armor is heavy, doesn't go well with prop planes.

[@couchfighter]

T7 with A4 CHASE PLANE OVER MY HOUSE RIGHT NOW AS IM WATHCING THIS. !!!!! I live across from lambert

[@AviationandSimulation]

Great show and a very good analysis.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks. 👍

[@superskullmaster]

Didn’t finish listening yet so forgive me if it was mentioned but what about the Textron Airland Scorpion?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

We did not discuss that aircraft.

[@lefty59th18]

I have listened to all the episodes, I'm gonna put this in top 5 for sure. a lot of very interesting topics, probably the best episode on covering so many aspects of tactical aviation. For a small addition, many European NATO countries employ, and even develop and produce light attack aircraft. For example Czech Republic with the L-39 derivative L-159 alca line, the one flown by Draken International) and they're just introducing the new L-39NextGen. Another example, A small air force is Slovenia, they don't have fast jets but they use the Pilatus PC-9 as a light attack aircraft in all the roles it can do. Also the BAe Hawk has many armed versions flying throughout the world, and even if they buy them as "trainers" I think its just a politically correct way to have double the aircrafts which can actually do major damage on foreheads.

[@RamadiTaxiDriver60M]

Not sure why YT deleted my comment. I wrote an article about this for a popular military aviation magazine.

[@brandonberisford]

Proud to say I am a software engineer that directly works on the ISR software that gets integrated into these aircraft.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Very cool!

[@michaelmulligan0]

Excellent show! With F35, a cheaper “bomb truck” is still required, probably needs more capability than light attack though. Definitely a place for light attack as well though.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

It's better to have a limited program for the low demand theaters than another middle ground program. More capability than light attack, now we're asking for a F-thirty-something that's going to get more billions of dollars to develop and take away resources from the F-35.

[@williamkillingsworth2619]

The radiation from the radar has always been something I have wondered about. China is progressing. Remember Korea and Vietnam. People like to call them a paper dragon but I personally disagree.

[@chrisdilley266]

Great podcast

[@howardwolfe31]

I grew here in NE Ohio watching AFRES (now AFRC) A-37B's fly around. T-37 Tweets on steroids. At the time I think their mission was listed as "COIN", counter insurgency. They did well in Vietnam I think, but by 1980, they no longer had a US mission, because they had to fight in an environment that had air superiority, and no significant IADS. Nothing to do in the midst of the 80's cold war. The group here switched to C-130's around 1980 and has been flying them ever since, and within a few years all the AFRES and ANG units had retired those aircraft. They went to Central and South American nations and I think they may still be in service with some of them. Great light aircraft for that low threat ground attack environment. Decent payload, good enough performance for the mission, and I bet their cost per flight hour and maintenance hours per flight hour was great.

[@petrairene]

How about the Gripen. That one seems to be pretty capable and versatile. Can even land and take off from improvised runways and maintained by mobile crews. A new and improved super Harrier would also be good. If the enmey bombs the regular runways you can operate it from any large parking lot and use some industrial building as a makeshift hangar. A light fighter aircraft should be able to operate without regular military airports in case the enemy manages to destroy these.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Good points

[@thunderace4588]

Thank you for making this informative episode of your podcast for us.

[@almerindaromeira8352]

Pilots also spend a lot more time in the air where there is simply more background radiation. I believe in some places pilots are classified as radiation workers.

[@fazole]

The higher you go, the more solar radiation you get. Airline pilots have charts they have to use which shows how long you can safely stay at given altitudes on a given long distance flight.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Interesting classification status. I’d be interested to see those charts, @fazole, had no idea they were a thing!

[@DJones476]

Hi, Vince, I know it was a lot more common back in the '80s (assuming it's still a thing), but did you ever get to wear Service Dress Blue Yankee when you were serving? When was this uniform normally authorized for wear?

[@steyreye]

Speaking of your listener's question, if you haven't already done so the book Harrier 809 (author Rowland White) captures the amazing history of the RN Sqn 809 being established and shipped off to the Falklands in 3 weeks! Many of the RAF pilots had never even landed on a carrier before hand. From zero to heros in 3 weeks...literally! The author might be worth having on sometime.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fighter-pilot-podcast/id1330534712?i=1000524765659 😎

[@steyreye]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Love your work :)

[@paladin0654]

We did the "light attack" drill with the South Vietnamese using Skyraiders, OV-10s and A-37s. A lot were lost to AAA. My vote for CAS is Army helos augmented by drones that can be used across the full spectrum of combat and are more responsive to the ground commander.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Valid options!

[@michaelmulligan0]

F/A-18 can’t fly in known icing conditions??? (I know nothing about this but…) Finland, Canada, Switzerland all operate the F/A-18 ?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

It was prohibited for U.S. Navy pilots, not sure what other nations allow.

[@keatoncrandall2471]

Can you please do a video on the U28a Draco? It's not a fighter, I know, but I feel like it's a nice small plane that deserves more attention.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

We could try but it might be a short episode. AFSOC doesn't like to discuss their ISR platforms much.

[@keatoncrandall2471]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Thanks for the amazing content, and thank you for taking the time to consider and reply.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@keatoncrandall2471 Sure thing

[@couchfighter]

He should ask the guy that did the A1D video to help with the warbirds video

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

I’m sure he’ll make an appearance ;)

[@thedoctrinetv]

I would love to fly one of these prop planes. But I'm not American, and at my late-30's, I'm ancient.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Sounds like they're flying these in many other countries outside the U.S.

[@Reindeer911]

I still see the F-35B as a continuation of the old Soviet YAK-38/141 program that was a failure, but ultimately Lockheed collaborated with and bought out. Planes like the A-29 Super Tucano and gunships like the Fairchild AU-23A Peacemaker (aka Pilatus Turbo Porter) make a WHOLE LOT more sense for our actions in the mid-east. These planes are cheap to obtain, cheap to fly, carry just the right weaponry to deal with small clusters of terrorists/insurgents, etc. Throwing the F-35 in places like Afghanistan is like using sticks of dynamite to take care of a gopher.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

All valid points, and exactly the reason this program was started: to use the right tool for the right job at the right time. A tough decision for sure.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

I don't understand the fascination with the 141. How is the F-35B a continuation of the 141 program is the 141 was simply a naval defense fighter and the JSF a multi-branch multirole fighter? Conceptually and physically they are different, with the only similarity being the three bearing swivel nozzle.

[@BIGFOOTJEEPER92]

I would do the light attack aircraft if I could in a heart beat

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Explain “do”. That has different meanings.

[@BIGFOOTJEEPER92]

I would fly those plays if I got too

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@BIGFOOTJEEPER92 🧐

[@BIGFOOTJEEPER92]

@@FighterPilotPodcast never mind I can't spell or pronounce a sentence right today

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@BIGFOOTJEEPER92 😅

[@stretch3281]

What a silly idea to call a plane wylie coyote.... It's bound to fail an end up as a pile of dust at the bottom of a canyon! Meep meep......

[@stretch3281]

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam chips beans eggs beans and spam!!!

[@johnnyb7270]

Light attack vs drone wasn't asked

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

True, but also wasn’t the focus of the topic today…not that drones aren’t a valid weapon system.

[@johnnyb7270]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Thanks for the reply. Seams like some drones may fit into the light attack category, i.e. predator. I'm guessing the pro's to manned light attack are no lag time, price per hour lower, better situational awareness, not vulnerable to electronic attack. Of course, the obvious con is putting a pilot in danger. Thanks and keep up the good work.