130: Women React to Mormon Land w/ Matt Bowman and Brooke LeFevre

Mormon Land recently followed-up the Matt Bowman's Salt Lake Tribune article with an interview of Matt and Brooke LeFevre discussing the growing numbers of "Mormon types" who no longer believe Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Join us as we discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of this interview.
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[@Hmcc0712]

Michelle, I’ve watched all of your episodes and some several times. I came across your channel about 9 months ago. I just couldn’t get enough of this information and have read Whitney’s book, also the ghost of eternal polygamy, watched all of Gwendolyn’s episodes- some several times, and I’ve watched many others who have done work on this. It does shake your foundation and I’ve definitely had the cognitive dissonance that happens. But it has ultimately been so healing and so wonderful to learn about and the more I study and pray, the more I know it’s right. I just can’t describe the peace and love I have felt from god in knowing better and repenting from believing untruths in the past. I am so appreciative, I know you get so beat up but also there are people like me whose life has completely changed for the better. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I just love and admire your courage, hard work, scripture knowledge, and everything you’ve done so much.

[@MichelleBStone]

Thank you so much for this ❤️❤️❤️

[@franciegwin]

I just think that the introduction of poligomy into the church crippled the restoration so much and the gathering of Israel was hampered so much. Truth about this subject will unlock the speeding forward of this gathering and his work!

[@MichaelEllisYT]

That gathering of Israel is based on the idea of God being polygynous. He says he has two wives the nations of Israel and Judah. He divorced Israel and will bring her back. You cant have the gathering of Israel if you reject polygyny. You have to pick which people God will choose. Will he choose Israel or Judah?

[@rocketzero2103]

​@@MichaelEllisYTEl has a wife, Asherah. When her implements were removed from the Holy of Holies by Josiah, she was not a harem. She was the only wife.

[@MichaelEllisYT]

@@rocketzero2103 So you're appealing to a pagan goddess? Read Jeremiah Chapters 3, 31, & 33; Isaiah Chapter 54; Ezekiel Chapter 23. These sections establish the very premise of the restoration of Israel and the new covenant. If we reject the metaphorical polygynous marriage between God and his two brides the nation of Judah and Israel we reject the restoration of Israel and also the new covenant of Jesus.

[@rocketzero2103]

@@MichaelEllisYT you only insist that she's pagan because of what you've been told by Deuteronomist scribes. I recommend that you read the extensive scholarship by Margaret Barker on this topic. Even a casual perusal of her book The Mother of the Lord would destroy this assertion that Asherah was a pagan goddess. Even Dan McClelland asserts that Asherah was part and parcel to the OG temple of Solomon and its most sacred rites, which included the existence of Her tree in the Holy of Holies. As for your assertion about the inferred metaphorical wedding of the atonement, all of that content was passed to us from the same Deuteronomist tradition that produced the Sadducees and Pharisees. Not a good look for the building up of faith, since Christ can still produce the children of Abraham out of a pile of rocks.

[@MichaelEllisYT]

@@rocketzero2103 So your claim is the Deuteronomist changed God's word, then the Pharasees and Sadducees used the Deuteronomist's word to prop themselves up, and then because Jesus opposed the Pharasees and Sadducees that the Deuteronomist's work must be wrong. So I have a few questions: How to you reconcile this with the prophecy in the Book of Mormon that the Old Testament "record of the Jews" contained the fullness of the gospel and the commandments of God in purity until it was corrupted AFTER the time of the twelve apostles, not before? How do you reconciles this view with the fact that Jesus fully 100% supported Torah Law as God's Law, going so far to say that anyone who disobeys the smallest Torah commandment will be least in the kingdom? How do you reconcile this with the fact that Jesus didn't oppose the Pharasees and Sadducees because they FOLLOWED Torah, but because they DIDN'T follow Torah and used their man-made false traditions to circumvent Torah and ignore the more important matters of the Law?

[@tinaellis2158]

I worked in the archives as a student at BYU in the 90s and had the privilege of transcribing Emmeline B Wells’ journal. It’s been a long time, but as I remember, the entire book was filled with heart wrenching entries like the one that was shared today. It wasn’t just a few sad days for her but years and years of loneliness and severe depression.

[@franciegwin]

Just so tragic!

[@littleninjakjh]

I would love to read those

[@ggrace1133]

I’ve read memoirs and diaries passed down through families, as well. I am a descendant of polygamy. Every single record I’ve read is full of heartache and depression, and poverty. Love was considered frivolous in marriage; in fact, romantic love was taught by Brigham Young to be of the devil and a falsehood spread by the Roman Empire. These righteous women truly suffered and I pray they have all found their one true love in the hereafter. Everyone deserves a one true love who lives the deepest and holiest ways of loving and giving that humans can ascend to.

[@oneclimbs]

“Millions shall know brother Joseph again”

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

@@oneclimbs 💯

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Took me a few days to listen to this in it's entirety:) DEFINITELY worth it! I appreciate all four of your integrity, honesty, and transparency in what you are all doing and working on. It is a breath of fresh air!

[@cherylclute4981]

Another fantastic podcast! Dan and I appreciate all the hard work and research all four of you are doing to bring out more truth that Joseph was not a polygamist. God bless you all!! ❤❤❤❤

[@MichelleBStone]

❤❤❤

[@heatherholmen6639]

According to David Whitmer, Joseph returned the Urum &Thumn to an angel in June 1829…Joseph did not have them in 1842 to “ask” for the revelation again

[@Commenter2121]

Great catch on Clayton’s contradiction regarding who took the revelation to Emma. I’ve brought this up to many apologists and have never heard a good explanation. Similar contradictions on when Kingsbury made his copy and when Emma burned it. There are conflicting stories on Hyrum telling Kingsbury to hurry up with his copy so that he could take the original to Emma. They use this to explain differences in the later part of Kingsbury copy. Hales is adamant that the Kingsbury copy was made a day or two later.

[@ggrace1133]

Immanuel Swedenborg, who preceded Joseph by about 50 years, had many experiences in the spirit world. There, he was taught of three heavens and was shown that those who are widowed and remarry in this life will spend time together after death until they know who they should love and be with from then on. But the other spouse amicably goes on to find a great and eternal love of their own. This is the case whether it’s a woman widowed and had multiple husbands, or a widowed man who has multiple wives. Everyone has a true soulmate love! I think that is the most wonderful promise of joy for each of us!!

[@MichelleBStone]

I have loved what I have learned of swedenborg. Thank you so much for sharing this! That is actually beautiful.

[@MommaCrissa]

It's so great ro meet and have Karen on here too! Awesome points and I like you're additions alot!

[@jacbox3889]

At one hour in Michelle speaks truth which made me laugh out loud! "Polygamy makes you stupid"! Funny because it is true! It is a losing argument based on the evidence as a whole! Thank you, Ladies!!! Looking forward to the documentary!

[@MichaelEllisYT]

@@jacbox3889 Until you circle back around to the biblical text and then the evidence is staring you in the face.

[@jandurham5400]

Superb long episode! You lovely and smart ladies have pounded another stake into Polygamy's Dracula heart that has and continues to suck the spiritual blood out of so many good people. I continue to cheerlead your important work. Eventually the church will have to admit the truth that Joseph, Emma, and Hyrum were not polygamists, and the practice was instituted by Brigham and company. You ladies have firmly established a beachhead of truth that is God-lead. Thank you!

[@MichaelEllisYT]

Good to know how you feel about Abraham and Jacob. SMH.

[@nostoppingit7243]

@@MichaelEllisYT It is really interesting that the Nephites were using David and Solomon as their excuse for practicing polygamy instead of Abraham and Jacob, seeing as how Abraham and Jacob were held in a higher status than David and Solomon.

[@MichaelEllisYT]

@@nostoppingit7243 True. Also it says they had the Law of Moses. But it doesn't say they were misinterpreting the passages where multiple wives are approved.

[@MommaCrissa]

Michelle, death threats to you from polygamists would prove how evil it is. How could someone dare kill someone breaking the commandment of murder (not even metioning the sermon on the Mount of being angry with your brother) switching it out for a supposed commandment from God of Polygamy??? Makes no sense. People need to examine their hearts.

[@Desertsilence]

But remember, polygamy makes you stupid!😅

[@MommaCrissa]

@@Desertsilence So true.

[@nostoppingit7243]

We can look to David and Brigham to see that murder to protect polygamy has been done before.

[@ricmitchell]

Well done as always! Thank you for all the sacrifices you all make to bring truth to light.

[@ronaldlowrey8817]

Whitney, thank you for your strength. It inspires us all 🙏🙏. These are KGB tactics being waged against you and your family. Our Lord and Savior is ashamed of how you are being treated.

[@franciegwin]

I've heard this from so many people. One bishop will support a family, then another will persecute the same family. I experienced this from a bishop. He would deny it but he threatened my life if I didn't keep speaking up in church about my background which included my childhood trafficking experience. It wasn't even about our church. I was raised Methodist. But he says if I didn't stop telling people of my history he would end my life. Of course it was in his office and he didn't yell it.

[@lindsayashton1385]

@@franciegwinThat’s so horrible! I’m so sorry you experienced this from an ignorant leader.

[@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist]

Whitney I hope Helaman 13:14 But behold, it is for the righteous’ sake that it is spared. But behold, the time cometh, saith the Lord, that when ye shall cast out the righteous from among you, then shall ye be ripe for destruction; yea, wo be unto this great city, because of the wickedness and abominations which are in her Gives you comfort. Thank you for all you've done and your courage to speak out like Samuel the Lamanites!

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

Exactly! All our people of integrity are being removed either forcibly or they leave of their own accord because of the insufferable hypocrisy.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Whitney, my heart just aches for you and your family. To do so wickedly to such good people because you are exposing the truth. God be with you all.

[@MaryW359]

❤

[@littleninjakjh]

Your story is so sad. If you would have put your head in the sand, you’d be welcome there. :/

[@ccardall]

I don’t know whether it will ever become academically respectable to believe that Joseph Smith never had additional wives beyond Emma. But regardless of what theories secular historians might entertain, it seems clear that full participation and even membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a good fit for those who become convinced of that view and insist on publicly proclaiming it. Note that this belief has led Michelle to not only condemn the prophets and apostles from Brigham Young through at least Joseph F. Smith, but also to publicly call the current First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve “the blind leading the blind”, and to publicly say that general conference is “full of false doctrine”. Once one has gotten to that point, I think we should all agree it’s time for a different place and way to worship in the broader Restoration tradition.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

@@ccardall But then there are those who care about family, friends and other members and want to be there to help them through the pain of learning the truth. If you take the time to get to know Brigham Young and and the others you would find that there is very little truth in what we have been told about the true church history and the men who have and do lead it today.

[@ccardall]

@@icecreamladydriver1606 Why do they need to be a member of the Church to advocate their views to their family and friends?

[@nostoppingit7243]

1:08:01 Joseph F. Smith's mother, the strong woman we have the oxen story about, was sick in bed when they publicly announced polygamy in conference and she died shortly after. The only person in Utah who could have confirmed or denied Brigham's stories about Joseph and Hyrum. Joseph F. was 14 when his mom died. Since when do you send a 15 year old on a mission? Having lived through his mission, Joseph was then cared for and influenced by Brigham and Heber. I have nothing but compassion and sympathy for him.

[@gwendolynwyne]

Thank you, that’s the info I was searching for! I too have absolute compassion and sympathy for Joseph F. Smith. I cannot imagine the trauma he endured; reading the Journal of Discourses only gives a taste of what he was immersed in as an orphan. He learned the hard way that obedience to the Utah authorities was his only way to survive.

[@Uke1111-to8xj]

I am confused why William Clayton writes that Joseph was asked to write a revelation by the means of Urim and Thumim? If my memory serves me well, angel Moroni took the Urim and Thumim after the Book of Mormon translation was completed. Wow! This man just keeps on adding fun details that expose him.

[@spookymicah3131]

Whitney, Thank you for the audio version! I have dyslexia and audio makes it easier to read!

[@brieannaleigh2117]

Thank you so much to each of you!

[@Heartsinmelody]

It must be hard for someone like Brian Hales to have spent 20+ years collating other people’s research and publishing conclusions about polygamy that are more and more looking to be incorrect. I can see how ego gets in the way. I was dead set Jacob 2:30 was the polygamy loophole, but when I heard Michelle on ward radio challenge it I went back and read it in context without the Compton, bushman, Hales, Bradley lens - and Lo and behold, she was right. It’s not a loop hole. That was the beginning of me being able to see “a new writing” like the Liahona describes, sending me in a direction that points more accurately towards the real Joseph smith and ultimately to God. BY practice of polygamy was not at all what Joseph taught. God in his wisdom has at times let the prophets to go astray with their teachings, and fortunately will provide a way for all things to be revealed in time. President Nelson’s “lazy learner” remark may actually have broader implications and application than even he realised at the time he said it. Great discussion everyone. Thank you.

[@DanaPrice-os9hh]

I made it to the end! Excellent job. I see all of you as my dear friends.

[@littleninjakjh]

Thank you for putting this info forward.

[@stefanylclark7419]

🤣😆🤣😆 Dr. Pepper spray on the computer screen at :"Your Momma is a Polygamy Denier." Yes. I am. Copywrite that. I'm buying stock in T-shirt and bumper sticker sales in Utah!

[@stevereedatx]

That was so random and hilarious

[@questmedia7271]

Wow, sorry Whitney. More false doctrine coming from the leaders of the LDS church. Obviously the leaders need to read the Book of Mormon more closely...from Christ's sermon to the Nephites: "And behold, ye shall meet together oft, and ye SHALL NOT forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may may come unto you, and FORBID THEM NOT; but ye shall pray for them, and shall NOT cast them out... These are the direct words of Christ!!! The leaders of the LDS church are in need of repentance!

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

I am among so many good people in this comment section. Thank you! I needed to read this today😢.

[@lindsayashton1385]

This applies to Covid, IMHO, too. It was heartbreaking to read this scripture in my home where we were told to stay unless we came back with our family masked.😢

[@oneclimbs]

Great stuff, a solid panel all around.

[@davidmyers2407]

You are getting really good at synthesizing the story... keep it up and the historians will follow,

[@sdfotodude]

Joseph got better at the fabricated "First Vision" account as the years went by as well.

[@jennyforyourthoughts]

Those journal entries from Emily Partridge and Emmaline B. Wells were heartbreaking. 💔 I’ve felt the exact same emotions during an abusive marriage and as a single mother-this is what they were expecting to live with for eternity. 😢

[@MichelleBStone]

💔

[@MommaCrissa]

I think the only way we could come to a certainty is if someone comes forward with their ancestor's diary that explicitly gives details and experiences with Joseph, Brigham, the 12, Hyrum, Emma, and others. It would be great if it explains their wrestle and prayers of hearing all of their words, statements, and experiences, as well as what they ultimately chose.

[@nostoppingit7243]

There are TBM's out there who have ancestor journals detailing Brigham implementing blood atonement. I have no doubt that if we had ancestor's diaries that who did what would become very clear.

[@Uke1111-to8xj]

It was so fun to hear such great comments from Karen! You should do more collaboration with her in the future.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

Thank you ladies so much ❤

[@Hmcc0712]

For me it just comes down to the part about the concubines. I’m sorry but god is not and never has been ok with or commanded women to be kept for sexual purposes. This is the key for me because no one can explain that part away, it is just not from god.

[@MichaelEllisYT]

@@Hmcc0712 God specifically commanded Hagar to return to her polygynous family. God was definitely ok with Jacob having children through his wives' servants. However the term "pilagesh" (concubine) is left undefined in scripture so that can often lead to fear mongering language.

[@Hmcc0712]

@@MichaelEllisYT he told her to return but they weren’t married, Hagar was a surrogate. Those aren’t good examples, there’s never a command saying polygamy is ok, many times he gives his law of monogamy.

[@MichaelEllisYT]

@@Hmcc0712 Define marriage. I think you're bringing too much cultural baggage in with the term marriage. If you look up the etymology of both the Hebrew and Greek words for marriage, you'll find that it originates simply from "to take a woman". So if you're looking for something that looks like modern feminist marriages you'll be lacking. You're correct that it was surrogacy. But that doesn't change anything. God's command for her to return to live with them still stands. It is very rare to find an explicit command for someone specifically to take an additional wife. However, the commands that result in polygyny are found in many places. There is no such thing as a "law of monogamy." That's nonesense.

[@Hmcc0712]

@@MichaelEllisYT I think I’ve interacted with you before. I’ve seen you troll many peoples comments. Sarah and Abraham were married and she was referred to as Abraham’s wife. Him telling her to return is definitely not him saying polygamy is ok, what was her other option? Also god does have laws, he gives commandments, and those are his laws. He gives the law of one woman and one man twain becoming one flesh. This is how I see it. You can make excuses if you want to condone polygamy because you like it, but you are contradicting god.

[@MichaelEllisYT]

@@Hmcc0712 We probably have had an exchange before. I'm not sure how you're making sense of the Hagar commandment. Are you saying that it would have been more of an abomination for Hagar to run away and escape than it would be to live polygyny? Because that seems like a lesser of two evils idea and I don't believe God supports ANY evil. The problem I have with this "commandment of monogamy" is the only place we find it is in the works of Joseph Smith. It's not in the Bible anywhere. Genesis 2:24 isn't a commandment, because the Hebrew is not using the command tense. It's an observation whether by God or the narrator it's unclear. Further more with doesn't limit the number of one flesh unions to only one. It's stating that the nature of a man taking a woman is that in that union the two become one flesh. If he had more than one such union he would become one flesh with each one. Let's take a look at Exodus 21:10"If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish." Here God commands what is to happen if a man takes another woman (contextually a slave girl) as a wife. He doesn't say it's an abomination or say not to. He tells how to do it righteously. I don't understand how this is compatible with the idea that polygyny is an abomination. Because God would never approve of an abomination.

[@psmith535]

Whitney, I’ve read your book and it’s absolutely amazing! Please don’t let a false church push you around. You and I have never been members of the true restored church. Please understand that. Joseph restored the true gospel to the Earth in its fullness but then it splintered many different directions. You and I are literally members of the Brigham Young splinter, not the Church of Christ. Joseph and Brigham are worlds apart in theology and the true church restored by Joseph and the false church concocted by Brigham Young are completely different. Brigham and his abominable church corporation are what is warned about in the Book of Mormon. Please follow Christ and his truth, not the great and abominable church. Awaken completely to your awful situation. Joseph was never a polygamist, Joseph was never a ConMan, Joseph was never a pedophile, Joseph never married any women behind Emma‘s back. Joseph will be back to clean up the mess, the mess that has become the great and abominable LDS corporation. My advice is to remove the garment and remove your name from the records of the church. We find ourselves in the same exact situation Joseph did when he was told there was no true church on the earth.

[@reppi8742]

I agree with what you said about Joseph and Brigham. However I will not remove my garment nor will I have my name removed. I suggest you study the old Hebrew records, early Christian temple worship and the Native American birchbark records (more will be shared in September). My covenants are with God not with the church organization.

[@StompMom5]

@reppi8742 Exactly how I feel. All through Bible and book of mormon God loves temples. I'm a dedicated member but My faith is in God and the gospel. Not the corporate part of church.

[@nostoppingit7243]

Galileo was a laughing stock until he was proven right. Those who laughed at him are now seen as the fools, just as Brian and the others will one day be.

[@sdfotodude]

@@nostoppingit7243 seen as how the general authorities authorized the gospel topics essay, doesn't that make them fools?

[@rowanwhiteleaf443]

I wonder sometimes if certain documents might have been altered with young Joseph F Smith specifically in mind, to get him to believe it all. I can only imagine what he must have been told and shown back then to get him on board.

[@jacbox3889]

Crazy that there is lack of evidence from Nauvoo when Joseph had scribes following him around in Nauvoo.

[@ccardall]

Not crazy or surprising at all, if the scribes in question were committed to keeping Joseph's practice of plural marriage private.

[@jacbox3889]

@@ccardall I think you have missed a number of evidence that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. And where are these records that Joseph asked for from his scribes?

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Yup. Sure would be nice if we could study those, along with the Clayton "journals". If they haven't long since been destroyed...

[@katherineshiver9428]

Thank you, love this information! You are each smart and beautiful and doing a great work! ❤

[@StompMom5]

How sad Whitney 😔. I agree with others that there needs to be charges brought against that bishop. Witch hunt does not fall onto the responsibility of the bishop. Also, did you actually see the letter from the headquarters? Wondering if that was a fake to manipulate? It's weird that people are allowed to believe Joseph was a liar, adulterer and ped0 but anything other is out of the question

[@franciegwin]

There are so many faithful members of the church who do not believe that j Joseph taught poligomy. Bishops, ex stake presidents, mission presidents, r members of the church but are so afraid to say so. I've not listened that much to your channel as was so intrigued! Since 2020 I've been looking at things more deeply. The spirit just will NOT let me believe Joseph taught that! My question is that what dies this say about the continuation of priesthood and our temple covenants? I believe in the restoration of Christs Church but how does the Priesthood go on after Brigham? I can't leave the church because where do I go? So many of my friends in good families have left the church because they won't deny poligomy was of Joseph! I think this is an important subject.

[@lindsayashton1385]

Personally, I believe the Lord still honors the priesthood & offices of righteous men and just because some prophets went a little astray and made big mistakes (which happened all through scripture, BTW), it doesn’t invalidate the restored gospel of Jesus Christ by default. I believe the church can keep trying to stay on the correct path as it seeks inspiration and makes course corrections-just like WE can. 🥰

[@JakobPGrau]

I would totally agree, except for all the times I have felt the other-worldly power of the priesthood flood into my body in ways that could never be imagined or manipulated or even explained by my own emotions. Too many times feeling like woah, what was that!? Same thing with the conclusion of the Endowment. Sometimes it is so powerful I can barely get the words out, with no rational explanation why l would be so affected by those words in that way. Were it not for that, I can easily understand why one might be inclined to write it off as an invention of Brigham or the masons. So I absolutely believe the priesthood still is valid in the church, despite any shenanigans of Brigham and his pals. God is able to do his own work. Just my two cents.

[@MichelleBStone]

@@lindsayashton1385 Love this!

[@jeffreyowens450]

Your sentiments are exactly where I am in my journey. I’m struggling to reconcile the present with our past. I’m praying daily for peace and answers about how to move forward but haven’t found any relief yet. Ladies, THANK YOU, for standing for truth! Your courage and faithfulness are inspiring.

[@geofforyanderson6701]

As I was watching this video for the fourth time I came to the realization that all of the previous 129 videos and the first 2 hr, 43 minutes of this one have been laying the groundwork for the last 20 or so minutes of this one. All of the polygamy dots finally came together for me beginning at 2hrs, 44 min into this video. All the documents, facts and history under heaven will likely come up short without this final consideration.

[@Commenter2121]

Great points, the LDS church is trying to walk this line of supporting past polygamy while distancing itself from modern polygamy. The fact is that the LDS church is partially complicit in the horrible acts taking place in fundamentalist groups today. Until they denounce this teaching and revisit the history, we are to blame.

[@sdfotodude]

BINGO.... Blame the church. It is fundamentally immoral.

[@Commenter2121]

@@sdfotodude I do think they deserve some blame for the current fundamentalists groups. Those groups love the teachings of Brigham and Heber, and they hold very tightly to section 132. How can we claim to have nothing to do with them?

[@sdfotodude]

@@Commenter2121 Brighamites?

[@sdfotodude]

@@Commenter2121 Harrisonites?

[@sdfotodude]

If the church wanted to get rid of Polygamy. Warren Jeffs would never have existed. They run the fricking state.

[@sunshinegal4294]

I heard Whitney share her complete story on what happened to them with the church a few years ago but now can’t find it. Would you be able to put the link in your links? I think it was horribly sad and wrong, but more would need to hear just how the church leaders work.

[@foopah]

I think you are getting the topic fully flushed out, or as much has it can be with the given documents. Just a thought, it might be good to start creating a path the church could travel. Work out how the church can go from where they are now, to where it needs to be given your research. A "way out" so to speak. If all you do is corner them, they may only double down. The easier you can make it for the church, and polygamy supporters, to walk a new path the more likely they will. Take a good look forward at how all this could play out and try to give them as many easy paths to the truth you are presenting. Best of luck to you.

[@MichelleBStone]

@@foopah That's actually my plan for episode 132 🙂

[@kellywilson8322]

Just ordered Whitney's new book ❤❤❤

[@tamicox990]

So for years if you claimed JS was a polygamous you’d get in trouble and now if you say he wasn’t a polygamous you’re in trouble?! WTH?!

[@leslieboyce2455]

I enjoyed this episode. Can you do us a favor? When you bring up dates and events, please explain details! We all don’t know all the in depth sourcing and explanation and I often feel totally lost. Each episode needs to be presented so that if it is the only one someone has watched, it will still make sense. Sometimes it feels like you are talking in esoteric code.

[@rocketzero2103]

Really, there just needs to be a master timeline with each event and date.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

You guys did an amazing job at showing the heartbreaking bad effects of polygamy. Also, I ask that you 4 please do a similar review of the following video on Morminish Podcast: Ep.56 The Nauvoo Expositor vs. D&C 132 Thank you.

[@JakobPGrau]

Jared, give it a rest already about the 132/Expositor match-ups. They do not necessarily mean what you think they mean, and, if you're honest, you know it. You are perfectly capable of understanding that if certain people were doing polygamy behind Joseph's back, perhaps even penning a false polygamy revelation, falsely claiming it was from Joseph in order to con others into secretly participating in polygamy, that it is perfectly reasonable to expect such content to have made it into the Expositor. It is also perfectly understandable that if such under-cover polygamists take power after Joseph's death, that they would be very motivated to blend the false polygamy revelation with Joseph's true revelation on eternal marriage. Thus the current Section 132 is born. Is my version of events proven? No, but neither is yours.

[@Commenter2121]

@@JakobPGrau Exactly, I made a similar comment to him and it looks like he deleted it. People literally mention different revelations of different lengths and contents so it’s highly plausible that those doctrines were taught in a different revelation that was being used to convince women of polygamy. Both sides have to deal with a troubling piece of evidence here and there but when looked at holistically, the argument of Joseph’s innocence is more logical in explaining all the holes in the church’s polygamy story.

[@Telavian]

Her overall argument is almost always emotional. Of course, she goes to sources however it is typically an emotional look at them. Joseph couldn't be involved because he is a prophet. Brigham had to change everything because he is evil.

[@Commenter2121]

@@Telavian I disagree with that, she spends a lot of time in the sources and is poking major holes in the church’s polygamy narrative. The side that has something to hide is the one contradicting themselves, suppressing and altering documents, and not responding to criticism. You don’t do that if you’re not lying. Brigham repeatedly lied so he has a major credibility issue. He claims Oliver is a polygamist, Emma personally tried to kill Joseph, Emma conspired with the mob, Joseph said Hyrum would lead the church to hell etc etc

[@jaredvaughan1665]

​@Telavian You got it. Michelle is 4 times as emotional as she is logical. Her emotions are spot on in spitting out polygamy as the whoredom it was. But her logic is not correct about discarding the Nauvoo Expisitor Affidavits and the other evidence that Joseph was part of the polygamy conspiracy that led to his death. Also, her Joseph was a God, and Brigham a devil narrative is not correct. Both were flawed prophets of God.

[@user-gg3gx6nr8v]

Have visited most all church history sites in the last 3 years after my wife passed. Have increased my testimony of Joseph Smith. Have also gained empathy for Emma in regards to this issue. Truly an enormous doctrine and a woman’s test like Abraham. The doctrine is true. D&C 132 is all about this doctrine and the power of sealing’s in the after life. President Nelson and President Oaks have both used this sealing power with 2nd wives.

[@jacbox3889]

At 2:40 where do I find the sources that Gwendolyn is referring to? Affidavit of Joseph's about the Expositor? "They turned the truth of God into lies".

[@gwendolynwyne]

This is in 3 sources that you can find in the Joseph Smith Papers, 1) the rough minutes from the June 8, 1844 Nauvoo City Council meeting that was convened immediately after the Nauvoo Expositor came out, 2) the rough minutes from a June 10, 1844 meeting, and 3) the revised/published minutes of the Nauvoo City Council meeting from “EXTRA,” Nauvoo Neighbor, Vol. 2 No. 8, June 17, 1844: “[Joseph] then read a statement of William Law’s from the Expositor, where the truth of God was transformed into a lie concerning this thing--He then read several statements of Austin Cowles in the Expositor concerning a private interview, and said he never had any private conversation with Austin Cowles on these subjects-that he preached on the stand from the bible, shewing the order in ancient days, having nothing to do with the present time... "Councillor [Hyrum] Smith proceeded to shew the falsehood of Austin Cowles in the 'Expositor,' in relation to the revelation referred to, that it was in reference to former days, and not the present time as related by Cowles. Mayor said he had never preached the revelation in private, as he had in public-had not taught it to the anointed in the church in private, which statement many present confirmed, that on enquiring concerning the passage in the resurrection concerning “they neither marry nor are given in marriage, &c., he received for answer, men in this life must marry in view of eternity, otherwise they much remain as angels, or be single in heaven, which was the amount of the revelation referred to, and the Mayor spoke at considerable length in explanation of this principle and was willing for one to subscribe his name, to declare the “Expositor” and whole establishment a nuisance." I'll post links but if that comment is deleted you've got the references above👍 [Edit: KZbin deleted my comment with the links!]

[@MichelleBStone]

The June 8 and 10 City Council minutes. I'll grab the link when I have a minute.

[@jacbox3889]

@@MichelleBStone Can you give me a little bit more. I still haven't been able to find this quote of Josephs.

[@MichelleBStone]

@@jacbox3889 It won't let me attach the screenshot, but here is the link: www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minutes-10-june-1844/14#full-transcript If you search truth, you should find it easily. (There are a couple different versions. These are the original minutes. You can also look at the newspaper version.)

[@GCS3T]

So weird that the judge in the temple lot case missed the “loophole” in Jacob 2:30, right!?!?!?

[@MichelleBStone]

@@GCS3T 😂😂😂

[@lynnsmith9526]

Didn’t Emma burn the paper? How did Joseph put it in his pocket?

[@7dixiebug]

Out of curiosity, have you wondered just WHY these historians fight so hard for polygamy---to the point of not being scholarly at all? How many rely on the church for any of their income? Polygamy isn't a mainstream topic in the US as far as I can tell anyway. Do they risk their membership if they fight against it just like you do for fighting against it? There has to be a reason other than they have concluded through research that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. BYU professors are definitely paid by the church and I think Brian Hales also makes money through his books that are sold at Deseret Book, also owned by the church. Thoughts?

[@jrtodd-br4zc]

Money is a very good guess But beyond that, if Joseph Smith didn’t start polygamy (the evidence is truly overwhelming that he didn’t), their entire religious foundation crumbles into dust. Thats probably about as likely for why they cling so tightly to such unbelievably UN-credible “evidence” as the money thing.

[@Hmcc0712]

@@7dixiebug I think it’s easier to go along with the established narrative than to fight against it, especially since they do risk their membership as well as status and other social consequences.

[@7dixiebug]

@@Hmcc0712 which would mean it’s not really about history for them. Which means they should lose a lot of their credibility. And I guess that’s what’s happening .

[@RunningtoHim828]

@@7dixiebugit’s because regardless of their academic credentials, they are acting as apologists and not historians. The problem with apologists is they start with the conclusion and look for evidence to support their conclusion. And in this space there is a unholy union between the church needing to support their unbroken line of PSR’s, which relys on Brigham being a legitimate successor, and anti-Mormons who need Joseph to have had all the wives the church accuses him of so they can besmirch his character.

[@7dixiebug]

@@RunningtoHim828 that makes sense but it also means they have diluted their own credibility. It’s intellectual snobbery. Unfortunately the church is going along with it.

[@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist]

I am confused as to why William Clayton was writing in 1st person as though he was Joseph Smith in his personal journal. Karen's comment.

[@MichelleBStone]

I know! This must have been from his little folded papers "journal" where he was pretending he was Joseph Smith. The entire thing is such a huge mess!

[@meganthompson6121]

Where can I learn more about the documentary that Karen is putting together?? Where can I find Gwendolyn Wine (?)'s blog and videos? How can I find Whitney's new books?

[@Washingtontree]

youtube.com/@gwendolynwyne?si=h85xbfZBzzu6u6rt

[@MichelleBStone]

I didn't have time to add the links! I'll do that ASAP!

[@kellywilson8322]

Gwendolyn Wyne youtube.com/@gwendolynwyne?feature=shared

[@kellywilson8322]

Can't wait for Whitney's new book❤

[@jjhardy2000]

Oh, those clips were hard to listen to. “If you want to believe Joseph’s public speeches..” What??!! Those would be equivalent to what we now call Conference talks. Is there any other prophet of this dispensation (and none of them are who we claim to be THE prophet for the entire dispensation) who we throw under the bus in this way? Not that I think everything that any prophet ever says has to be or is absolutely true, but generally we can believe that the prophets are being sincere about what they say in their conference talks…. or can we? If even Joseph Smith’s public words were just lies that we shouldn’t believe.

[@sdfotodude]

Nobody is almost castrated for simply "not finding treasure with his magic rock"

[@MommaCrissa]

Will you do an episode JUST reading, or actually just have an AI read, all of what the Temple Lot jusge said, and that's all. Just that and nothing else.

[@StompMom5]

I read that whole case. The judge called out Brigham Young for his lies and tricks. Some of the testimonies were absolutely comically, ridiculous! It's the reason we still don't own the temple lot to this day. No one was ever able to prove Joseph was an adulterer like Brigham and his minions

[@littleninjakjh]

I would love to read or listen to it

[@StompMom5]

@littleninjakjh IBelieveJoseph channel has a reading on one of the testimonies. It's hilariously bad. No Wonder the judge didn't buy into any of it.

[@MommaCrissa]

@@StompMom5 Seems from the amount read even on the video today that it an obvious answer as to what we should have known this whole time. It just goes to show how strong secret combinations are when they can fool so many people. Sexual deviance or sexual manipulation has been a tool of Satan's from the beginning. If it's not polygamy it's pornography, sex addition, queerness, gender dysphoria, or transgenderism, all of which have infiltrated someones mind and spirit to believe something so strongly that they cannot pull away from it on their own literally without God's help.

[@StompMom5]

​@@MommaCrissaYes. Those issues have destroyed Empires and civilizations. God commanded one man, one woman and any other will bring about destruction.

[@bbbarham6264]

Hey Michelle which episode do you quote the judge from the temple lot case dating he doesn’t believe that polygamy came from Joseph? Am trying to find that quote but can’t remember when you give that.

[@MichelleBStone]

I am pretty sure it is in this one. I'll see if I can find it.

[@MichelleBStone]

I start quoting it right after 1:11:30

[@bbbarham6264]

@@MichelleBStone Awesome. Thanks!!

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

Arrrrrgh!!!!! The use of the word woman in place of women is of pandemic proportion! I hear it all over the place. I do believe it has something to do with the feminist movement as that is where I hear it the most. I am incredibly suspicious of why it is being used in this way. I am also noticing the removal of the word "the" in sentences. It is not just noticable but jarring, and I am suspicious enough to think it is related. Someone enlighten me!

[@TheStoneOnTheWay]

I think it is admirable that you are working for and hoping to gain the respect of the academic community. I also know you are aware of how Nephi teaches that the learned think they are wise, of how Isaiah says the same, and Paul. I don’t know that you will change the scholars. I hope you do, But I do know you are accomplishing what is actually important. You are following your commission from God to participate in the work of the salvation of souls. You may fail in the first, but you have already succeeded in the second.

[@will.i.am0991]

2 Nephi 27 26 Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid. This verse is talking about the wise and the prudent within the church in our day (credentialed church historians, phd’s, etc.). The wise and prudent in Jesus’s day was the scribes and the Pharisees. We are following in the same path and fulfilling the same patterns as the Jews of old. Once you realize that verses 19 and on in 2 Nephi 27 jumps to our future from the day of Joseph Smith and that the unlearned man talked about in verse 19 is not Joseph Smith but is the one mighty and strong that will come set in order the church of god in D&C 85 this chapter and chapters after it makes so much more sense and you realize Nephi is prophesying of our future, not our past and Joseph Smith’s day and you also realize the Lord is talking about and condemning us and how we have created precepts of men, false narratives, and false doctrine within the church that the Lord will correct when he initiates the great and marvelous work which is an end-time event. I believe the “Joseph Smith practiced polygamy” narrative is one of the items that will perish. Thank you for all of your work on this. The weak things of the earth will confound the mighty and wise.

[@StompMom5]

LOVE THIS!!

[@denisefrandsen5106]

I've been wondering so long, if you could go on Mormon stories podcast, but sounds like John won't have you on

[@franciegwin]

I love different LDS KZbin podcasts but there are so many, like Ward Radio, that will not give up on poligomy! And Jacob Hansen. They won't have you on will they?

[@StompMom5]

She's been on both and they didn't even allow her to speak. They shut her down before any facts were ever stated, it was an embarrassment for them. They will only talk to truth seekers when they're looking to mock someone

[@Hmcc0712]

@@franciegwin I think Michelle said Jacob Hansen is coming on in the fall

[@kellywilson8322]

I'm wondering if Whitney knows who in "headquarters " made the decision?

[@Joanneofarc360]

A say it the way its spelled. Men with a womb womb- men except I don’t pronounce the B. 😅

[@jenniferwallace8161]

Same

[@kellywilson8322]

Is there a link to the smoot trial?

[@nostoppingit7243]

Why did church headquarters intervene with Whitney but not Michelle?

[@StompMom5]

Makes you wonder if that bishop was telling the truth? Especially since Whitney doesn't have a channel and isn't in the public eye as much. My guess.... crazy with control bishop. I had one once. Holy crap he was insane and divide the entire ward. He was only bishop for two years and completely re-wrote the system as though he was a prophet. He made changes he wasn't authorized and did things in secret. He had the elders Quorum pres do interviews that only a bishop should be doing. He was the weirdest dude I had ever met. They released him right after he started changing the system but he had that ward in complete chaos

[@sdfotodude]

Too busy counting the BILLIONS they make off of Morminions

[@thelastgoonie6555]

Serious question: Do yall believe John Taylor was a legitimate Prophet? His 1886 revelation has significant provenience. Anyone who eschews polygamy, but embraces a Brighamite sect of Mormonism will always be sus.

[@lucybates8078]

Why did these women choose to marry in polygamy?

[@MichelleBStone]

We talk more about the women in part two of the conversation.

[@sunshinegal4294]

I think you meant, “Listen to what I mean and not what I say?”

[@MichelleBStone]

I did! 😂 I hope you listened to what I meant, not what I said 🤣

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

@@MichelleBStone LOL!!! :)

[@duncansh81]

I'm not sure if those who are academic historians and members of the LDS church have considered the implications of JSJr not being a polygamist but if they have, that would be a major conflict of interest for them. It is something I'm still wrestling with - that the LDS church is not "the true" church. It passes more potential authority to the formerly known RLDS church. I'm trying to follow the keys of the priesthood and don't know where the answer lies.

[@crw3736]

1:11:35 - 1:20

[@sdfotodude]

The fastest way to get kicked out of a cult. Disagree with them. Namaste Whitney.

[@benzun9600]

Will you be back on the circuit with the snuffer tribes?

[@user-sj5ux7ut1j]

1:20:19 Michelle that really is a mic drop! The ONLY reason I can think that there are so many who refuse to engage with this topic is because if they honestly have to acknowledge it then the fall out and repercussions for the church literally go back from Brigham Young forward clear until todays prophet. There is just too much to comprehend and then one could take it a step further and would need to seriously consider if Joseph did actually have some extra martial situations with some of the women who testified. In short I think it’s prob just overwhelming to alot of rank and file members so they just to ignore the past and be ignorant to alot of the messy things on both sides of the topic

[@wtswingle]

2:36:29 curious what is meant by spiritual forces and dark spirits leading people away from studying this stuff. Thanks!

[@gwendolynwyne]

First I want to say that I am not at all criticizing the effort to defend Joseph against these accusations (I’m obviously involved in it!). Truth is worth defending, and if a person is wrongfully accused, even potentially wrongfully accused, it should be looked into and made right. That said, I’ve noticed something interesting, and that is the extreme focus that questioning Joseph’s polygamy elicits. It is an important issue because our history informs our understanding of doctrine, but it is not the most important issue-yet it is the one that keeps getting moved to the forefront. I believe there are spiritual forces working to keep us in argumentation, working against us uniting as brothers and sisters to decide whether we actually want a god of many wives and concubines, whether we want our “virgins” (young women) to be given to already married men who “desire” them (a man’s desire is the only guardrail around the law of many wives and concubines according to the revelation/D&C 132 itself). Who does it serve for us to argue over whether Joseph was a polygamist or not? Or maybe we should ask, who does it serve for us to argue? When our attention is constantly being drawn to whether Joseph was or wasn’t a polygamist, we cannot direct our attention to God, the true and living One who will pour out knowledge and revelation upon our heads if we will only put ourselves into a state of love so that we can receive it.

[@wtswingle]

@@gwendolynwyne thanks for the clarification! So do you see the contention that this polygamy debate elicits as a bigger problem than whether or not Joseph was a polygamist? And that the dark spirits (I assume you mean satan?) are using this debate as a way to divide the saints?

[@gwendolynwyne]

I believe we Latter-day Saints must have the polygamy conversation, and I wish there were a way to do it without contention but having read 2 Nephi 28 with awakened eyes I know there’s no way around the angry response. I think evil spirits are constantly working to divide us, the human race, along every conceivable line and our church doesn’t have any special pass to avoid that. If we Saints could look at the problem(s) together instead of seeing each other as the problem that would be a great start. The biggest problem in my opinion if Joseph Smith was a polygamist is for Joseph, because that would mean he saw God, received God’s law and then went directly against God’s commandments. What are your thoughts on this?

[@wtswingle]

@@gwendolynwyne I’m pretty agnostic when it comes to a lot of this stuff, but I’ve found the debate to be a fascinating window into how polarized LDS/Mormon culture has become in recent years. Like you, I’ve found the tone of the debate to be really discouraging-even if it isn’t all that surprising. I worry that the nature of online discourse isn’t conducive to reasonable and meaningful dialogue. I’ll be sure to check out your channel tho. Thanks for engaging!

[@user-ij5ru7ox2i]

You believe that Joseph translated section 132 & that polygamy is mandated by God but that Joseph himself did not practice it? I am interested in this episode. I’m going to watch it later but just starting it out I’m confused. What is the position of everyone on it? Thank you!

[@MichelleBStone]

Actually, none of us believe that polygamy ever came from God. We all agree with the Book of Mormon when it clearly calls. Polygamy abomination. None of us believe section 132 came from Joseph Smith. The first time it was ever seen was in 1852, 8 years after Joseph Smith's death, when Brigham Young magically pulled it out of his desk where he claimed he had had it hidden since Joseph died. During Joseph Smith's lifetime, he added the statement on marriage to the doctrine and covenants, by universal common consent. It was section 101 in the 1835 version, and section 109 in the 1844 version. It explicitly condemned, forbid, and denied polygamy. It wasn't until 1876, 32 years after Joseph Smith's death, that the statement on marriage was removed from the doctrine and covenants and section 132 was added.

[@user-ij5ru7ox2i]

@@MichelleBStone Thank you for clarifying!

[@ccardall]

@Hmcc0712 What pleases the Lord is that we receive rather than resist-much less judge and condemn-those whom he chooses and sends. Jesus pronounced dire warnings upon those who rejected the apostles of His mortal ministry (Matthew 10.15-16), telling his apostles that “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me” (Matthew 10.40; see also D&C 84.36-38). So if Brigham and the Twelve that followed Joseph were adulterous and murderous usurpers and forgers rather than apostles sent by God, and the current First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are the blind leading the blind and full of false doctrine, judge ye! And if you have a conviction about alternative apostles or prophets or true messengers alive in our day, I’m very interested to hear about it!

[@gwendolynwyne]

That would be the worst case scenario for the leaders following Joseph, but what if they were just wrong about polygamy like they were wrong about the priesthood ban, blood atonement, and the Adam-God doctrine? What if they believed they were right and that they needed to indoctrinate the doctrine of many wives and concubines because it was necessary for exaltation, but they were just wrong? Do we have to condemn them or can we simply let go of the false traditions they handed us?

[@ccardall]

@@gwendolynwyne There’s no equivalence in “wrongness” in Brigham and the Twelve allegedly introducing plural marriage against Joseph’s will, compared with the other three issues you mention. The alleged “leading astray” is of a totally different magnitude, in a totally different class, from the three other issues you mention, for at least two major reasons. (1) In different ways (even the other three really ought not be lumped together so blithely), the three other issues you mention had virtually no impact on the major spiritual life choices of typical rank-and-file Church members. In contrast, the introduction of plural marriage had major practical impact on the life decisions of a significant plurality of typical Church members. (2) The three other issues you mention do not involve what your narrative requires at a minimum: forging a false revelation commanding abominations in Joseph’s name and canonizing it (D&C 132), which if true would be an offense so deliberate and intentional and grave in its consequences as to destroy any pretense to legitimate authority and apostleship. There is nothing in “good faith” or “good intent” about such a blatantly and knowingly deceptive course. In contrast, the other three issues involve only good-faith if mistaken speculations rather than knowing deception.

[@gwendolynwyne]

@@ccardall I agree that the true story and implications could indeed be very grave. But potential negative conclusions should not stop us from doing everything in our power to learn what is true. In discussing this with fellow believers, I have noticed they often fear this same conclusion you lay out here, which is then used as an excuse for why they will not seek out truth about whether a doctrine of many wives and concubines is part of women’s divine nature and eternal destiny. But _that_ is the important, essential thing we must learn, through our faith. If we will not even consider that polygamy may not be of God because of our past polygamist leaders, we have set them up as idols between ourselves and the Creator. Polygamy is an abomination, according to the Creation, the Flood, the Abrahamic covenant, the entire Book of Mormon, [edit: the teachings and works of Jesus Christ!], the law of the Lord revealed to the Saints in 1830, and its fruits. We have been blind but praise God there is One who heals blindness. If you do not know what polygamy is, seeking out that knowledge and wisdom from God should take priority over whether Joseph participated and to what degree. Once I knew that it was the enemy who planted the seed of polygamy, I began to ask myself, “How wise is it to accuse Joseph of this abomination?

[@ccardall]

@@gwendolynwyne I’m not saying that one should shy away from seeking truth because of wrenching consequences. I’m just saying that, if one becomes convinced and feels a need to proclaim that Brigham and the Twelve framed Joseph, usurped his authority, and fraudulently implemented plural marriage as a revealed doctrine and practice contrary to Joseph’s and God’s will, then one of the wrenching consequences one should accept is that full participation and even membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is no longer a path of integrity and therefore no longer appropriate. Thus, from the standpoint of maintaining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as one’s spiritual home, it is even more unwise to accuse Brigham and the Twelve of usurpation and knowingly false revelation and canonization, than to accept that Joseph at least believed in good faith that he was commanded by God to participate in plural marriage. This is the minimal path that does not accuse any of the prophets and apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints-neither Joseph, nor his successors-of knowingly committing abomination, and knowingly introducing false revelations to support it. As for whether plural marriage is always an abomination that never has been commanded by God, I will leave that for comments on your individual videos.

[@4rcgoodwin]

How is this not a smoking gun, and irrefutable?

[@ErnestoSalazar-y5t]

Preguntense , que van a hacer para que no estén pasando tantas cosas en lugar de estarse quejando. Y no le hechen la culpa DÍOS,

[@kellywilson8322]

Michelle have you ever thought about blocking the obvious trolls that constantly bring in dark comments to this light group?

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

I think it is helpful to know where they stand, we just need to not feed the trolls by answering. But let them show us who they are and what is in their hearts. Censorship works both ways... very dangerous to start that...

[@kellywilson8322]

To me, this is a trauma recovery group. It's about asking,seeking, knocking, and then receiving truth and light, which brings in healing for those on both sides of the veil. The trolls are not here to learn or heal. Their sole purpose is to cause chaos and more trauma. I'm not interested in reading their brighamite ideas over and over. I know to just avoid their posts. I only wish Michelle didn't have to waste time responding to them.

[@kellywilson8322]

I think of it like tuning into a classical music station, and then every so often, someone plays a rap song with profanity, etc. In it. If I wanted to listen to low vibration music I wouldn't tune into a classical high vibration station (Michelle's pods) I would find the rap station ( Brian Hales pods). LOL

[@kellywilson8322]

To me, this is a trauma recovery group. It's about asking, seeking, knocking, and then receiving truth and light, which brings in healing to those on both sides of the veil. The trolls are not here to learn or heal. Their sole purpose is to cause chaos and more trauma. I'm not interested in reading their unchanging brighamite views over and over. Just my thoughts. I know to skip their comments, but I feel bad that Michelle has to waste her valuable time responding to them.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Question. If hypothetically Joseph were to privately justify adultery what motivation would he have to publicly admit to it?

[@rocketzero2103]

Your question is best applied to John C. Bennett, William Law, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and anyone else who went to bed with women outside of their original marriages. Joseph didn't participate. You would do well to dismiss the lies told about him so that you do not encumber yourself with the fate of those who told those lies from the beginning.

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

For the same reason Brigham Young did; power, influence and dominance.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

@@rocketzero2103 My point is even if Joseph was a polygamist, he was certainly not going to admit it publicly in the Nauvoo environment. So Michelle's focus on his public denials means nothing.

[@rocketzero2103]

@@jaredvaughan1665 people that don't admit things publicly typically do not spend an inordinate amount of time and energy fighting against perpetrators of their own behavior publicly. You'll get denials, sure. But not prosecutions and excommunications. However, if you have an example of someone else who fights an illicit behavior just as vigorously as they practice it, I'm open to learn about them so that the behavior that you're describing can actually be compared to something historic and realistic.

[@raulofmustachio3d]

And thus we see where your path hath led. Get off this woman’s boat while you can my friends!

[@MichelleBStone]

@@raulofmustachio3d are you advocating that people jump off the cliff of polygamy, blood atonement, divine racism, Adam/God/ etc? Is that your true gospel? Or should we actually listen to what the scriptures clearly teach?

[@TaiPHoo]

Michelle & Co., It is disheartening to address the numerous inaccuracies in your commentary regarding the Temple Lot Case, which, unfortunately, betray a fundamental misunderstanding of both legal doctrine and historical context. Your frequent misapplication of legal terminology and erroneous assertions about Judge John F. Philips' role in the case starkly highlight a profound ignorance of legal principles, grade school research applications, and Mormon history. Your consistent reference to the judicial body in the Temple Lot Case as a "Court of Law" is egregiously mistaken. The proceedings were conducted in a Court of Equity, a distinct legal forum designed to address issues of fairness rather than strictly legal disputes (Baggette, 2003). Such a conflation demonstrates a concerning lack of familiarity with basic legal distinctions and suggests a superficial engagement with the subject matter. The inaccuracy of your claims about Judge Philips' decision is particularly troubling. Contrary to your assertions, Judge Philips' ruling was not an authoritative judgment on the case. Instead, his baseless decision was vacated by Justice Rufus W. Peckham in Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints v. Church of Christ, 163 U.S. 681 (1896). This vacatur effectively nullified Philips' judgment, rendering it as if it had never been issued and thus dismantling any assertion of a conclusive legal victory that you might have implied (Romig, 1992). To suggest that Philips was particularly adept at discerning falsehoods is unfounded, as his vacated decision underscores the lack of enduring legal weight his conclusions carried. The core dispute in the Temple Lot Case, formally documented as Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints v. Church of Christ, 60 F. 937 (C.C.W.D. Mo. 1894), centered on a contested parcel of land in Independence, Missouri, claimed by both the RLDS Church and the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) (Flint, 1979). This case was fundamentally about property rights, not a tribunal on the character or doctrines of Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball, Eliza Partridge, Bishop Edward Partridge, David Cassidy and the Partridge Family, or any other Mormon Boogey Man hiding out in the Prairies of the West . The notion that Judge Philips' ruling bore any significant implications on broader doctrinal controversies, such as polygamy, is a gross misinterpretation of both the legal and historical contexts. The appellate court's handling of the case was not simply a matter of affirmation or reversal. The court's decision to vacate the trial court's judgment indicates a complete dismissal of the lower court's findings, rendering the trial proceedings moot and reflecting a judicial rebuke of the trial court’s handling of the case (Baggette, 2003). Your characterization of this ruling as anything else is a crude and inaccurate simplification of the complex legal process involved. Your portrayal of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ involvement in the Temple Lot Case also reveals a lack of comprehension. The primary parties in this litigation were the RLDS Church and the Church of Christ (Temple Lot), not Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Boyd K. Packer, the scholars at JWHA that recently disinvited you, or Donnie Osmond (Addams, 2021). The case focused on the legal ownership of property rather than engaging in a broader critique of Joseph Smith’s practices or the LDS Church’s doctrine. Your analysis fails both in its understanding of legal principles and its grasp of historical nuances. The erroneous portrayal of Judge Philips and the mischaracterization of the Temple Lot Case demonstrate a troubling misalignment with established historical and legal scholarship. For a more accurate comprehension of these matters, a rigorous review of primary sources and scholarly interpretations is indispensable. References Addams, R. J. (2021). An Introduction to the Temple Lot Case. Signature Books. Baggette, S. P., II. (2003). The Temple Lot Case: Fraud in God's Vineyard. John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, 23, 121-136. Flint, B. C. (1979). An Outline History of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot). Church of Christ (Temple Lot). Romig, R. (1992). The Temple Lot Suit After 100 Years. John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, 12, 3-15.

[@MichelleBStone]

Yes another bizarre essay. Anyone can choose to misunderstand and misrepresent the relevant points and be priggish about irrelevant details. That's what both of your footnoted essays so far have done. I'm not at all sure what you're trying to accomplish.

[@TaiPHoo]

We’re having a polite discussion about history, aren’t we? It’s important to provide citations for your references, especially when presenting a differing viewpoint, yes?

[@sdfotodude]

This is your brain on homeschooling

[@rowanwhiteleaf443]

It's entertaining how well this comment summarizes the "professional historians" argument. You are dumb and you disagree with the "experts"! The ad hominem appeal to authority. If that airtight case doesn't convince you he's right, nothing will!

[@six1nyne]

Lol

[@patriciafinn5717]

Why not focus on Brigham Young racism..polygamy and horrendous views of religion. ❤

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

We do!❤

[@smuggythornton]

Because those that have truly studied Brigham know his imperfections and they are not near as imperfect as you would want them to be. 😊

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

@@smuggythornton Could you clarify? I'm not sure what you mean.

[@benzun9600]

Because Young had thousands of other teachings that were good and far ahead of his time.

[@sisknothinbutruth2684]

@@benzun9600 I suppose you can have an infinite number of great ideas, but if you treat the people under your care with callous disregard, what good are all your marvelous thoughts?

[@MrFishwalker]

Why use a sentence when you have three hours? :)

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

So much more to say then could fit in "A" sentence! Fantastic use of 3 hours:)

[@MrFishwalker]

​@@Kristy_not_Kristine Maybe, I guess. At some point, people need to move on with their lives. Either people get it, or they don't. The endless deep dives and debates are not my cup of tea. But, hey, let people do their thing. :)

[@sdfotodude]

All great cult leaders eventually practice some form of polygamy

[@jkaccounting]

The ad hominem and assumptions made about historians is crazy. Of course the evidence during JS life time is not as great as after. He was alive to deny it. Also do we have all the William Clayton diaries? I thought I heard that the church hasn't released them, is that true? Sounds like we could really use them.

[@StompMom5]

They were going to back in 2017 but decided they will remain in the vault permanently.

[@jkaccounting]

@@StompMom5 I don't understand, why not release them? The lack of transparency erodes trust, especially with young people. And it leads people to speculate. The church knows what's in them and they say JS practiced polagamy. Interesting.

[@StompMom5]

​@@jkaccountingThere was never a clear reason why they won't. Simply decided they never will. We're also missing many of Brigham Young's writings that will never be released. I imagine on some level they're too horrific for public eye as far as church is concerned. We do have some of Clayton's journals loaded with adultery. One of them is filled with who he was sleeping with while on a mission. The whole polygamy thing is messy and extremely inhumane.

[@Sallygirl111]

Ur mom 😂😂😂

[@ccardall]

I don’t know whether it will ever become academically respectable to believe that Joseph Smith never had additional wives beyond Emma. But regardless of what theories secular historians might entertain, it seems clear that full participation and even membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a good fit for those who become convinced of that view and insist on publicly proclaiming it. Note that this belief has led Michelle to not only condemn the prophets and apostles from Brigham Young through at least Joseph F. Smith, but also to publicly call the current First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve “the blind leading the blind”, and to publicly say that general conference is “full of false doctrine”. Once one has gotten to that point, I think we should all agree it’s time for a different place and way to worship in the broader Restoration tradition.

[@MichelleBStone]

Gotta love the gatekeeping. One of the worst parts of religiously minded people. I'm sure you'll continue writing letters to my leaders 🙄

[@sdfotodude]

@@MichelleBStone Your Court of LOVE is being scheduled. Will next Tuesday at 7 work? You will be judged by MEN ONLY.

[@StompMom5]

Seems men in this church can't get "enough" thus being adulterers by heart.

[@ccardall]

@@MichelleBStone Haven’t written any letters to your leaders… For one thing, I don’t know who they are or what their contact info is! I do think they have a responsibility to address open opposition to the Church.

[@Hmcc0712]

@@ccardall I think we should all focus on coming to the truth through civil and respectful discussion. If we don’t agree that’s ok, if someone finds information that isn’t understood, they shouldn’t be censored and not able to share it. Thats really unhealthy thinking. We can disagree, prophets have been wrong in the past and will continue to make mistakes. I think the lord is making that more and more clear so that we will follow him rather than trusting in the arm of flesh. It’s definitely not anyone’s job to gatekeep membership in the church, especially for faithful people honestly seeking truth.

[@billboswell6036]

Give it up already. You're wrong! The evidence is just not on your side.

[@yeboscrebo4451]

There is some misinfo here. Men and women are not “equal”. The entire gospel message is centered around the gendered pattern of the Christ and His bride. This gendered pattern exists in the doctrine, it exists in nature… it’s universal existence in and through everything. Is the bride “equal” to the Christ? Is the one needing saving equal to the one doing the saving? Is the women equal to the man? Is the light of the moon equal to the light of the sun? Is the body equal to the spirit? The answer is an obvious No! The scriptures are quite clear on the matter. There is a hierarchy in gods universe. That’s just the way it is

[@MichelleBStone]

I'm guessing you're a man, right? And maybe a polygamist man?? I know that is the view of polygamist men, is very sad. You are correct that men and women are different. But when you claim that men are superior to women, you are way off base.

[@yeboscrebo4451]

I have my own ideas about polygamy. You present some very good, thought-provoking information on the matter but I don’t agree with everything you say. You can say I’m off base, but unless you address the gospel patterns presented to us in scripture, you’re wasting your time. Is the bride “equal” to the Christ, her head? Is Christ equal to the Father, His head?

[@MichelleBStone]

@@yeboscrebo4451 I take it you haven't watched the many episodes I have done focusing on the scriptures.

[@yeboscrebo4451]

@@MichelleBStone If you’ve previously addressed the answer to my question in your videos, you should be able to concisely answer my question right here, right now.

[@yeboscrebo4451]

The hierarchical gender dichotomy is written into the fabric of the universe - it is everywhere. To deny it is to deny the inequality of the sun (masculine, the “greater light”) and the moon (feminine, the “lesser light”). The gospel message takes this dichotomy a step further and explains that, not only is the feminine “lesser” in the hierarchy, but is “not her own” because she was “bought with a price”. Salvation is only through Christ. Salvation is only through the masculine. Salvation is only obtainable as the feminine principle uses free agency to discern and choose correctly between the two aspects of the masculine principle (good and evil) and submit to the good. What exactly makes the masculine “greater”? A greater love. Even familial social dynamics play out the hierarchical pattern. Possessing this love, a husband and father would die for his wife and children. The wife possesses this greater, self-sacrificial love for her children but does not possess it for her husband. In this regard a wife’s love is “lesser” than that of her husband. The greater love of the husband and father allows him to stand on the decks of the sinking titanic whilst his wife and children secure their seats on the life rafts.

[@daneastill2058]

Most members of the church including me don't really focus on the polygamy that happened in the church. We know it was commanded and practiced but we don't dwell on it. Not important for our salvation

[@Commenter2121]

I’d argue that most members are very unaware of the details behind the church’s polygamy narrative, and this is why they haven’t thought much about it. I believe the story we tell about Joseph destroys more testimonies of the restoration than any other topic.

[@StompMom5]

Trafficking women and children is never something God would command. According to Alma, God cannot lie and polygamy makes him a liar

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

It actually is important for your salvation if you are believing in lies... truth matters and truth is important. True Mormonism (as taught by Joseph) is TRUTH, wherever it may come from. You said that you "know" it was commanded. WHERE? Are you new to this podcast? Go back and start with the first episode. I would be surprised if you still "know" that after just the first episode. Might take you 2 or 3 more. There is no command from God, EVER, to practice abomination.

[@jessicathurston6494]

Do you apply the same reasoning about contemporary vs. later accounts to the first vision accounts? I don’t care if Joseph practiced polygamy or not. It doesn’t make a difference to me. I’m just curious how you respond to the different first vision accounts. You so emphatically say that William Clayton was lying in his later, more detailed and contradictory account about a revelation on eternal marriage. Are you also willing to emphatically say that Joseph was lying in his 1838 account of the first vision? His story got much, much more detailed in his 1838 account vs. earlier accounts. The 1838 account was written 18 years after the vision supposedly happened, and very important, key elements of the vision are very different than what he recorded in earlier accounts. Based on the fact that we don’t have any contemporary accounts of anyone saying he told them about the vision in the 1820s, and then suddenly this first vision story pops up and starts being told much later in the 1830s, are you willing to apply the same reasoning and acknowledge that Joseph obviously made up his story about the first vision and was obviously lying?

[@MichelleBStone]

I prioritize earlier accounts as a rule.

[@jessicathurston6494]

@@MichelleBStone so would you say Joseph was lying about the vision since we don’t have any accounts of him talking about it prior to the 1830s? There’s a lot of lying going on. He never mentioned it prior to 1832 and his story gets grander and more embellished over time. I wonder why there’s so much focus on all these people around Joseph who you say were lying about his polygamy but it seems like you ignore all the blatant lying Joseph did about basically everything.

[@nonamefirst8535]

​@jessicathurston6494 she's says William is lying because his accounts contradict each other, not because one is more detailed than the other and written at a later date.

[@jessicathurston6494]

@@nonamefirst8535 they said both. That it is more detailed and details contradict. Just like the first vision.

[@nonamefirst8535]

@jessicathurston6494 you're really missing the point that is both of Williams accounts cannot be true, it is not because there are more details that it is a lie

[@jkaccounting]

Michelle, the next step is to publish your research and put it out for peer review. Have you done this yet? Unfortunately your credibility will be limited until you do this. Gathering three other people who agee with you and then discussing a subject doesn't help your argument (KZbin is full of people who do this).

[@sdfotodude]

What and get laughed at by a panel of her "peers". Michele only survives in her echo chamber. Why doesn't she go to the Q15 and get them to get rid of 132 and take down the Essay?

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

It does, and it helps those of us who are listening and learning right along with her.

[@smuggythornton]

Wow the drama with you ladies.

[@sdfotodude]

Divine infidelity is a great name for your channel

[@sdfotodude]

"Mormon Types"??? Bwahahaha