16' MANUAL STOPS?? (...little to no use)

Visiting the organ at St Anne's Church, Catterick Village, North Yorkshire.
3 manual 'Tracker Action' organ built by Forster & Andrews - 1872
For full organ details visit: www.npor.org.u...
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE, LIKE AND COMMENT - MANY MORE "ORGANIC VISITATIONS" TO COME!

[@coraelizabethbrna439]

I really enjoy having a 16' diapason and reed in the manuals., It's very useful, for me, in French Romantic and Post-Romantic, and sometimes with hymns, you just need the extra gravity, it also allows one to go a little bit heavier on the 2' and 1 stops and whatever mixtures, I think it helps bring down the "screechiness" and adds some balance to it, which also maintaining the brightness. I use the 16' quite regularly...assuming it's voiced in a way that's actually helpful, because you're right it certainly can add muddiness if over used or not well-voice. I also use the tremulant a lot when I'm doing the French Romantic and Post-Romantic stuff. Great video as always!

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you for this - much appreciated and very helpful. Thanks also for watching :-)

[@HowardJohnstone]

This is an romantic period organ, where 16" was very important. For Widor & Vierne its quite expected to use 16".

[@markcooke729]

You'd notice a 16' stop missing in an English full swell! A 16' reed is essential to make that sound as it gives the "fire" the English full swell is so famous for around the world. 16' stops also increase the gravitas of the plenum & boosts the fundamental tone. They are also invaluable in building tone colours with other pitches, mutations in particular. BTW, the Vox Angelica isn't designed to be played by itself, it should (on this organ) be drawn with the Salicional to create the shimmering effect they produce! It's a lovely old Edwardian warhorse of an instrument though! Thank you for sharing 😉

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you for this - very helpful indeed. I have never found a benefit to a 16' on the manuals so hopefully this and further comments will help. The organ where I am organist has a 16' Bourdon on the swell and unless I'm playing something high up on the register I never even pull it out! Thanks again and thank you for watching :-)

[@markcooke729]

@@OrganicVisitations I definitely think a 16' manual flue is an expensive waste of wind on a smaller organ! I love your channel & it's wonderful that you bring less well known organs to our attention! Keep up the good work!

[@sixtiesfan11]

Some 16' can be used by playing an octave higher especially on small organs, where the sound may be different - like an extra stop. Can have some fun sounds using 16' and 4'. Best wishes from Leeds. 🤗

[@OrganicVisitations]

It’s the only time I use a 16’ - when the music is high up 🔝 Even then it’s a rarity. Thanks for watching 😊

[@ringerpaul3118]

That's what I was going to suggest. I used the 16' on the swell and the 4' and played up an octave (so it was an 8' and 2'). It made a really bright sound. Other than that I kept off the 16' as it made everything sound muddy.

[@claysibert]

The organ I play frequently has a 16’ Basson Hautbois and a 16’ Flûte à Cheminée both in the swell. Both are very useful for solo stops as well as chorus stops. Makes a nice, round, full sound when playing tutti. The 16’ oboe adds a wonderful foundation under the 8’ and 4’ trumpet stops as well without being thunderous.

[@davidholmes9756]

The 16' Great is intended to be added to the fuller combination of the Great. Whilst, at the console, it appears to be cloying you need to go into the nave of the church and the effect becomes an enrichment of the Great.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you - I have been a church organist for over 30 years and have played many organs with 16' on the manuals, but have never been able to 'get my head around them'. Thanks for this and for watching :-)

[@louisglen1653]

I agree a 16' reed on the pedals would be beneficial. Nice full sounding organ.

[@SarumChoirmaster]

A 16ft manual stop is often played and octave higher on the manuals.

[@Jojo.255]

That’s been my thoughts too 🤔

[@aaran_fleet_music6442]

16' are quite useful on manuals tbf

[@cornwall59]

The Organ I play is also a Forster & Andrews, there is a 16ft Bourdon on the swell, its very useful, playing it a octave higher, because I don't have a lie licht gedackt, which is rather strange, but the double sounds beautiful with the voix celeste and salicional.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you for sharing that - much appreciated 😊

[@Knappa22]

The pipework arrangement looks very similar to the Forster and Andrews organ in Llanbadarn Fawr church nr Aberystwyth i.e no casework at all, just pipes sticking out of a baseboard above a coved canopy. Can’t say I’m keen on that aesthetically. They are lovely sounding organs though.

[@garysmith394]

I agree that using the 16' stop on the manuals creates a muddy sound, at least on the organs I have played. It could be a matter of taste and what an individual organist hears.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Totally agree - we all hear it differently and to some it’s a pleasure to behold 👍😊

[@karlrovey]

16' manual stops can be useful for chorales preludes where the cantus firmus is in the pedal (and is not also serving as a bass role). The left hand gets the bass role with a 16' stop and the right hand is on a different manual and gets its own combination. Two goods examples where such a registration is appropriate are _Wo soll ich fleihen hin_ and _Kommst du nun, vom Himmel herunter_ from Bach's Schubler chorales. You can also use 16' stops in a bass role for manuals only playing.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Very helpful comment - thank you for this, and for watching :-)

[@Jensleeps]

Brilliant!

[@Tacticitus1556]

For me, playing at All Saints Maldon, a 16' Principal is essential for playing most of the great Bach organ works. This here is not a Principal but a Flute on the Great, which is substantial enough for a 2 manual organ (which I suspect this was originally), but with a 3 manual organ you can't feel the benefits of having a 16' on the manuals. It is also the case that a 16' is not necessary on organs with restrained upperwork, but with an organ like this it is a great advantage to have one, even if it is a Flute, as the pedal is very restrained for the size.

[@nothanks4255]

16' principals and flutes in the manuals are essential for a plein jeu

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you - and thanks for watching 😊

[@andrewgrahame6000]

16-foot manual stops are essential in many ways. First, as part of the Great diapason chorus to Mixture - where the rank should ideally be a diapason but often a Bourdon has to suffice. Second, in the Swell, where a 16-foot reed is an essential part of the "full swell" effect. Third, in organ repertoire where the hands lie high above Middle C (eg: French romantic). Manual doubles can make the sound muddy if they are used incorrectly - that it, without adequate upperwork to balance. If an organ contains a Bourdon it really should NOT be in the Swell, but unfortunately this is often the case. A Bourdon 16 belongs on the Great, as part of the Great chorus. Also, some builders (including Forster and Andrews) would construct a 16-foot Great Chorus in which the pitches in the mixture reflected a fundamental of 16-foot pitch, not of 8-foot. In other words, the 5 1/3 quint rank would appear in the mixture, especially in the treble. With the organ you are demonstrating it looks though as if the Mixture on the Great was a later addition. Even so, the Bourdon still had a chorus up to Fifteenth on top of it. Then there's the other benefit - of drawing the Bourdon 16 with other stops but playing an octave higher - eg: drawing with the Harmonic Flute 4 on the Great and you get the effect of Flute stops at 8 and 2 foot pitch. There are many reasons for having manual doubles, but it's important to use them correctly. Thick left hand chords below Middle C don't work well with a Bourdon 16, especially if there isn't a full chorus to Mixture sitting on top of it.

[@OrganicVisitations]

More valuable feedback. Thank you 😊

[@paulh5293]

A good 16ft manual diapason can help add clarity to the diapason chorus (but never just 16+8, you need at least the 4 as well). BUT it needs to be properly scaled - usually 2 or 3 pipes smaller than its equivalent 8ft diapason. When there are two diapasons you usually scale it to the smaller of the two. However in this case NPOR is saying the 16ft is made of "Claribel Flute" pipes which doesn't feel right - and when you demonstrated it the sound is more like a tubby bourdon so it doesn't really mix. Still, a nice Victorian instrument, in need of a bit of a tune. F&A turned out some very fine work.

[@ringerpaul3118]

Another great video and super organ and demonstration! Lovely to the part of the Gloria from the New England Mass by Patrick Appleford (1925-2018). May I make a suggestion, please? You often talk about 16' stops on the manuals making the sound 'muddy' and I agree. I was told that when playing 'full organ' it's good to make a 'cleaner' sound by not using any of the soft flutes or string stops (or the tremulant!). This also has the benefit of keeping the wind pressure up so that the high pipes stay bright and in tune. I'd like to know what you thank about that and share your experiences.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you for your comment, and for watching all the way through to the Appleford! I play that every Sunday morning and it's a great communion setting. I didn't intend to play it on this video but found the music on the organ and just couldn't resist! I didn't play it all the way through as I live in fear of receiving a copyright strike! I agree totally with your 'wind saving' technique! Certainly when playing 'LOUD' pieces I never use the strings or unnecessary flutes - save that pressure for the the 2ft's and mutations. As you correctly stated, the unaffected wind pressure helps to keep them lively and tuneful. Thanks as ever for watching and for your valuable comment :-)

[@davidcraggs3770]

I think that the Pedal Trombone has probably been prepared for but never actually been installed probably due to financial restraints.Perhaps the organ tuners could check whether any internal preparation had been made .

[@OrganicVisitations]

Correct! Further research shows that the 16’ Trombone is indeed ‘prepared’. Hopefully, one day, it can be added.

[@dmitrylotow9688]

Manual 16' stop is very important for plenum and in all cases, when you want to have a full deep sound. It would be not bad to tune this instrument...

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you, and yes, a tuning would be nice but not as bad as some I have visited. Thanks for watching 😊

[@sydneyorgans3250]

Wow: a 3 manual Forster & Andrews!! It's great. We have an 1882 3/30 Forster & Andrews on our list of organs to record, and I'm really loooking forward to that. I was interested in your comment about 16' stops on the manual. I can recall two on instruments we have recorded: firstly a 16' Bourdon on the Swell of the 1888 2/18 Nicholson and Lord organ of Castle Hill Baptist Church and secondly a 16' Double Diapason on the Swell of the 1863 2/20 organ of St John's Cathedral, Parramatta. Where I think these stops come into their own - brilliantly - is in Victorian music: which is not surprising as the organs that have 16' stops on the Swell are almost exclusively Victorian organs. When Henry Smart wrote for "Full Swell" he meant a Swell with a 16' stop, and on a number of occasions he included sections for Full Swell without Pedal: take, for example, his "March in G" of his "Postlude in C." I have tried to play such works on organs with what we would nowadays regard as a more conventional Swell, and these sections sound insipid: but they are magnificent with a 16' stop!

[@johnharvey2215]

NPOR states the pedal trombone is "prepared for", so not yet installed.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Yes, I spotted that after making the recording. Thanks for pointing this out and for watching :-)

[@noiselesspatient]

A lovely organ, if in need of some TLC. I'm saddened that the 1960s trope that a manual 16' flue stop makes an organ sound 'muddy' is still being opined. Likewise Vox Humanas and Tremulants (essential for Franck, Tournemire and so much more). Such misunderstanding led to the vandalising of so much of our romantic organ heritage. Manual 16's add warmth, colour and gravity when used artistically, and are also useful for playing in combination up an octave. Sorry to be negative, but I thought we’d grown out of such things in the last 40 years. In fact, this lovely instrument clearly hasn’t been immune, with the Choir Clarinet binned and Swell Oboe moved there to make way for a Clarion. Whilst the latter perhaps adds some brightness and fire, the Oboe is a foundation (not just a solo) stop on romantic organs and rightly belongs in the Swell. Still, at least the strings and Dulciana haven’t been replaced by mutations! Nevertheless, thanks for the demonstration of this lovely instrument.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Your opinion is very welcome and indeed helpful! Thank you very much for this and for watching :-)

[@oludotunjohnshowemimo434]

The clarion is basically a 4 foot trumpet?

[@OrganicVisitations]

Exactly, or an octave trumpet 🎺

[@johnmaguire9305]

I tend to agree that a tremulant wouldn’t see much use. Also, the horn is more like a resonator and no use for choral accompaniment. One little bit of feedback: can you wear a lapel microphone as it’s hard to hear you.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I have got a lapel mic however I haven’t quite sussed how to use it effectively yet. Thanks again 😊

[@VoxAngelica8]

Great showcase of the organ! 16’s are actually pretty normal on manuals and on some occasions 32’s! 16’s add gravity, and really can ground the sound. Also useful as solo voices and can be very beautiful all alone. Hope that helps!

[@OrganicVisitations]

Thank you for the helpful comment and for watching 😊

[@VoxAngelica8]

Your welcome!

[@willemceuleers3789]

16' manual stops should be used with some caution, that's true. They shouldn't make the overall sound muddy, nor should they be all too heavy overpowering the pedal division. However, they may well not sound so nice heared from the console, yet their effect blossoms afar well into the sanctuary. In larger buildings they are paramount to avoid the organ sound being too light and smallish. Low pitches need a big room and vice versa. A great many of the finest composers call for 16' manual stops and the best organ builders included them. Not all of them are idiots, are they? Quite a number of larger organs have a sub coupler, which make 16' stops even sound at 32' pitch. So go and discover under what circumstances these composers made use of those features and perhaps find out why. Some advice: 1. make sure the 16' manual tone is quite a bit lighter than the 16' tone in the pedals. 2. Play the manuals high enough (e.g. the French way - Guilmant, Widor, Vierne, Dupré,...). 3. play the bass line occasionally solo on a 16' manual with the left hand, rather than on the pedals (some composers, like Bach, call for this registration), 4.... Cheers, Willem (Antwerp, Belgium)

[@OrganicVisitations]

Many thanks for these valuable comments and tips - Very helpful indeed! I am determined to get to grips with 16’ manual stops, something I have not been able to do in my 30+ years as a church organist. Thanks again and please be sure to subscribe…lots more to come 😊

[@willemceuleers3789]

@@OrganicVisitations My pleasure and good discovery!

[@andrewgrahame6000]

I wonder if the pedal Trombone pipes are actually present. Perhaps this rank was "prepared" in the alterations but not completed. It's clear that things have changed - that Choir Oboe was most likely originally in the Swell. At least the stop knobs are labelled to indicate what's been added. Also, when you demonstrate the softer ranks (eg: choir Dulciana) it's hard to hear it when drawn with other stops. Perhaps with the various 8-foot registers these could be shown separately. The upper ranks would also come across better if demonstrated as part of their respective chorus rather than being heard along. Mixtures are never used alone. The reeds in this organ probably all speak on the same wind as the flues, which would account for their power. Pity that the tuning of the trebles in the upperwork and reeds was not the best when you visited. I wonder what the overall impact of this organ is from down in the nave of the church? If the sound carries fairly well then this would be a versatile and satisfying instrument. Thank you for demonstrating this interesting parish organ.

[@OrganicVisitations]

Yes, the Trombone is ‘prepared’. I hadn’t realised before recording the video and I had never seen the organ before. Thanks for your valuable feedback and for watching. Be sure to subscribe 😊

[@JohnFDonovan-by1nt]

I agree. I would never use this stop while playing hymns. It does add a lot of mud and I find it makes it difficult for choirs to sing clearly. However, there are times, at least according to the way I register, that a 16 bourdon, not diapason, is useful for some French Baroque pieces.

[@benjamindaniel8467]

The spec of this organ seems quite confused. A Clarinet on the choir would be useful as a solo voice (or even an Orchestral Oboe) but the ex-swell Oboe is clearly a chorus reed. Perhaps there was an organist here with ideas of their own, and too much money available to enable unsuitable alterations.

[@OrganicVisitations]

I agree that a clarinet on the choir would be a benefit! Thank you for watching :-)

[@darobzamusic6007]

I must say I hate it when people play bach's preludes and use a 16' on the manuals! You don't need it!

[@noiselesspatient]

Depends on the chorus. If the mixtures take it (or are based on 16' harmonics) then they are essential, especially if there's a 32' in the pedal, which can add gravitas to plenty of Bach, a quality he himself asked for.

[@jeremytingle6404]

16' manual flues or reeds were an essential part of Baroque registration when they were there and were integral to the full plenum. This was corresponded by every major organ treatise of the era and the presence of such stops on period organs is witness to that.