1916 Primetime Special: Was the Rising Justified? (Part 2)

In Part 2 of the programme, David McCullagh leads a discussion with Eamon O Cuiv, Michael McDowell,Prof. Ronan Fanning, Patsy McGarry, Kevin Myers and Ruth Dudley Edwards.
Part 1: • 1916 Primetime Special...
Part 3: • 1916 Primetime Special...
For more on the Easter Rising, visit our online exhibition: www.rte.ie/centuryireland/inde...
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[@thomas20613]

God Bless all the men and woman of 1916, as far as I am concerned they are my Heros and i do not give one iota for those who disclaim them denegrate them and dispise them,all i would say is shame on you.

[@aidanjoyce3248]

Is that Dudley Edwards wan deluded. Spose she'd prefer if we had tattoo riddled skinheads waving Union jacks running down our streets still.

[@tomweldon7608]

@@aidanjoyce3248 she is by far the biggest West Brit ever existed, she calls herself a historian but won't dare mention anything like the great hunger or Cromwell or orange, she would only love to be a baroness in Westminster more than anything, and when it comes to the north it's all about loyalists/unionists being victims, even though she never lived trough the troubles in the north she acts like she was right in n the heart of Belfast during them times. Ruth Dudley aka the sattallite commentator

[@longmemory1620]

have you seen what Padraig Pearse wrote about little boys ?

[@joprocter4573]

No need for terrorist behaviour

[@tullinadaly]

Patsy McGarry is actually more annoying than Myers and Dud Edwards, maybe he should've stayed writing articles about Jesus instead of lecturing a scholar like Fanning

[@seanredmond3112]

Excellent debate.I personally think Pearse would have traded his subsequent legacy for a democratic Irish freedom.He knew if nothing changed soon the spirit of the Irish people would never rise again.This, unlike what Edwards thinks, is his real legacy.

[@Bulshie]

What a lot of wasters. Opening waster question: "What we had was a tiny minority plotting to use violence to achieve their aims without any mandate whatsoever - very hard to argue that that was justified" Answer: Exactly, and that's why every Irishman and Irishwoman was right to fight it. British rule in Ireland was totally undemocratic, had ignored the will of the Irish people for centuries and was enforced by violence. Get that into your thick skulls, RTE.

[@patrickgleason2066]

British rule In Ireland wasn’t “totally undemocratic.” Most of the democratic rights of the Irish people are inherited from the U.K. time. Life under the Kaiser of Germany, or in most European countries was much less free. My father fought with the I.R.A. The truth was that most didn’t want to be conscripted for W.W.1. ( (I wouldn’t want to have gone there either.) Bye the way! the I.R.A. did not defeat the Black and Tans. The “Tans” were mostly veterans of the war, they did not; “run like hell away.” That’s just the truth. I’m not criticizing my father and his comrades. There are just far too many self serving tales made up about our history in this country.

[@johnfalconer5778]

The 1913 Lockout and the Ulster Volunteers set the tone for what followed.

[@peadarocoileain902]

@@patrickgleason2066 The War of Independence did not start until WW1 was over. and it was clear the result of the '18 Election was going to be ignored.

[@patrickgleason2066]

@@peadarocoileain902 Surely it started in 1916? It's all very arguable when any war starts. Does it matter? "The result of the 1918 election was going to be ignored," how could that possibly have been "known?" The war I am most concerned with is the unresolved conflict between the two allegiances on this island. That has the potential to surpass anything that has happened in cruelty and consequences. If you are one of the people who think that "1690 the rematch" is a good idea, we have nothing else to say. Personally, I think that all wars start with bad ideas. Simple as!

[@khiggins7231]

My Grand Uncle from Galway died in Ypres in 1915. I have no doubt had he the benefit of hindsight he would have chosen to die here in Ireland opposing British rule instead.

[@stpat7614]

The good: - Irish free state in 26 counties The bad: - 6 counties stay in UK (partition) - Ireland only becomes a republic in '49 - Hundreds dead in rising - Thousands dead in Anglo-Irish war - Thousands dead in Civil War - The Troubles in NI - Ireland becomes a conservative Catholic state (Home Rule becomes Rome Rule?) The questions that should be asked are: 1. Was there another way? 2. Did the good achieved outweigh the evil?

[@pauliewalnuts100]

We all know Antrim, Armagh, Down and Derry weren't real options in any circumstance unless you were gonna commit ethnic cleansing. Tyrone and Fermanagh had Catholic majorities but UVF fighters willing to commit their own ethnic cleansing if Tyrone and Fermanagh opted for Home Rule which may have caused a civil war in on itself which the British would have seek to exploit. I think what we got may have been the best we could have gotten under the circumstances.

[@shamrockgerry]

The answer was there another way? ( No After exhausting every available avenue even home rule bill 3 times by democratic vote. The British 🇬🇧 imperialist empire and Tory Government armed unionists in north East of the island.giving control.left us with no other way out ! The rising was message to the world and to biggest Empire 🇬🇧 on the planet 🌍 which to this day still influences wars in many parts of the world.

[@stpat7614]

@@shamrockgerry By September 1914 even the loyalists had accepted that home rule was inevitable outside Ulster. Home Rule without the loyalist northeast offered a path to full independence without violence.

[@paulymullo]

Yes,The easter Rising had to happen,Ireland had been oppressed,the land was used for TheBritish Empire for their benifit,since "the made up famine"no such thing,check the amount of beef pork and lamb and food that would have kept the 2 million IRISHMEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN ALIVE was shipped out of IRISH PORTS,under armed guard ,all while THE TRUE IRISH STARVED TO DEATH,YES 1916 WAS TH YEAR THE BALL STARTED ROLLING,THE BRITISH TRIED TO WIPE IRISH PEOPLE OUT,AND THATS GENOCIIDE,WE WOULD STILL HAVE THE BRITISH RULE IF IT WASNT FOR 1916,AND THER AFTER,WE HAVE 26 OF OUR COUNTRY WE WILL GET THE OTHER 6,TIOCFAIGH AR LA,AND THE DUMMYS WHO SAY "WER BRITISH"THEN GDT THE BLEEDING BOAT,IRELAND IS IRELAND 32 COUNTIES,

[@helenflynn96]

Patsy McGarry contrary to what you claim, there were a lot of women involved, not a few: Constance Markievitch, Rosie Hackett & Helena Moloney, possibly others were active in 1916. Dozens, if not hundreds of women were active countrywide. Check your facts before you state inaccurate drivel.

[@stallthedigger2599]

The Provo's were no different than the men who fought in the rising or the War of Independence. I definitely don't agree with everything they did but they had the support of the Nationalists in the North and were fully justified in using force against the foreign oppressors.The only reason the Provisionals are treated differently is because Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are terrified of losing their monopoly on power and Sinn Féin getting into government in the South. So they use their influence in the Dáil and in the media to discredit them at any opportunity. It's all political gamesmanship that thankfully the Irish people are copping on to according to the surge of support for Sinn Féin in recent elections. Though it has to be said the sheer incompetence and corruption of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil has played a big role as well.

[@YoutubeChannel-ol7zx]

I agree with you. Nobody said violence was the best way, or the easiest way, or the most comfortable or most convenient way, but it is the only way. That was a paraphrased quote by some old Provo and he was right.

[@carmelmulroy6459]

It's different with the 1916 lot. They had parents or grandparents that had lived through the famine. They had to get away from the Uk

[@paulymullo]

Ther wasnt a famine,the potato crop failed,but look at the amount of beef pork lamb and grain being shipped out of Irelands ports enough to stop them starving,while the britts couldnt give a fuck,thats not a famine its genocide

[@aligindahouse7777]

​@@carmelmulroy6459Catholics were second class citizens in the north

[@mexicanpaddy]

Half of them are west brits, and have no idea of what really being Irish is.

[@tomweldon7608]

Have you ever know anyone more a west brit than Ruth, it's like she even tries to speak with an English accent. How she would love to be a baroness

[@joprocter4573]

You born in ice age

[@bluechip297]

Eamon O'Cuiv kicking some ass.

[@Dannydantimpat]

Myers , Edwards , McGary are well known apologist for Westminster imperialism..

[@andrewstarbuck4492]

Sixty six days

[@joprocter4573]

No invalid to say that as we were all british for so long. She made great point about Irish proclamation. Compared to Northern Ireland who had democracy. Their fault was their opposition faith n culture. Was wrongly perceived as dominated of others. Their cultural no more to blame than blm being black.. Hunger strikers were pawns in Ira version of winning against British who actually were Irish. They hadn't learned that in 1922..election in Ireland to join UK or not will result in brexit like state.

[@Dannydantimpat]

@@joprocter4573 The Irish weren’t ever British . Ireland was colonized by British/ Westminster elites and forced un democratically into a so called UK .

[@joprocter4573]

@@Dannydantimpat which century how many do Irish go back to.

[@joprocter4573]

@@Dannydantimpat silly after your 800yrs memory Ireland British in ice age in 12 century

[@martinleo1818]

Truth Buddly - Backwards !

[@markmahabir6342]

That's a good one LOL!

[@quapus]

Wonderful, heated dialogue regarding the justification for the Rising!

[@dennisdelany9098]

I would just make the point that the people who launched the Easter Rising conspired to disobey the orders of their superior officers in the Irish Volunteers and when the Treaty was signed the irregulars did the same thing. Collins hoped to use the Border Commission to make Partition unworkable. On the other hand it must be remembered that Carson and Craig were pushing to stop Home Rule so the Rising was in part a reaction to Unionist threats with connivance from the British officer class at the Curragh. It's a very complex matter.

[@RobertK1993]

Ulster Unionists are main reason for the violence in Ireland as much Irish Republicans only Nationalists are non violent.

[@conhoran8217]

It is interesting to see the difference of opinion between those who participated in the discussion Con Horan Newbridge Kildare

[@tomweldon7608]

34.37 is the FACT most important in this whole clip

[@mexicanpaddy]

People gave up their lives to set Ireland on a road to freedom, and even in death the “Irish” panel looks for ways to begrudge, belittle and blame them for the sacrifice.

[@joprocter4573]

Murder new Irish police made by Irish n innocent ppl was never In any country meant to be foundation for any country but. Jail or vapourized

[@jamesdolan4042]

It is highly unusual to put it mildly to hear Michael Mc Dowell unequivocally making the case for the legitimacy and justification of 1916 armed rebellion, yet during his political career as PD and Minister for Justice he vehemently opposed Sinn Fein and the PIRA.

[@bluechip297]

These programmes wouldn't even be happening if Sinn Féin weren't becoming a political power in all of Ireland.

[@61505]

arthur griffith , the founder of sinn fein signed the 1921 anglo irish treaty, an action that would be anathema to irs.sinn fein as led by gerry adams today.adams sinn fein is not the successor of any irish freedom movement.

[@longmemory1620]

Sinn Fein wont tell the truth about Gerry Adams

[@joprocter4573]

You spent most of your life since indoctrinated. N groomed by aphreid faith n brainwashing education n Church. Faith still holding on to hospitals 2022

[@RobertK1993]

​@@61505 They don't have to because everyone knows the truth.

[@61505]

@@RobertK1993 which is...?

[@m.k.s.7417]

Hi, I was wandering: what if "The [very]- Easter Lillies"; could be: "sold, to: raise fund's, for: The "{expressed}" Benefit, of Ireland's economy!!!!"?? -In other - words, to: "fundraise for (raise money/fund's for) Ireland": (inc. its ARTist's/poet's/entrepreneur's etc.!?)!!??

[@michidwyer4845]

How about was Britain justified in preventing Irish catholics from owning land voting and having no say in the running of their own country

[@sonnyirish3678]

Nothing worse than a religious lunatic.What was Ruth Dudley Edwards doing there.Its a bit different for Ruthie when she meets some clever Irish people.She is so out of her depth its untrue.

[@RobertK1993]

She hangs around with retarded Ulster Unionist like TUV and some DUPs

[@shanemolloy4731]

Mc neil was wrong . IRB were the leaders along witb ICA

[@FRM101]

The notion that a permanent empirical occupying force retains, unto itself, the perogitive to set out the acceptable means by which the occupied may resist occupation, is curious to say the least.

[@philiprufus4427]

That type of philosophy makes the restraint of the so called occupying force by its commanding authority more difficult,hence reprisels. Smart. Tough on the victims. Philosophy of Cynics!

[@shanemolloy4731]

Pearse saw a provisional army and government in ulster in 1912

[@ruger148]

Ruth Ugly Edwards.

[@longmemory1620]

Attacking someone's physical appearance, resorting to bullying is typical IRA stuff

[@Dannydantimpat]

@@longmemory1620 So you agree that she is ugly ? ( LOL)

[@markmahabir6342]

@@longmemory1620 Why are you using the Irish flag? Use the Butcher's apron like the West-Brit that you are!

[@longmemory1620]

@@markmahabir6342 west brit ?

[@RobertK1993]

Retard more so

[@JohnnyBoy1533]

I think it would have been far better if the discussion had involved academic historians rather than these commentators. Academic historians are usually the most knowledgeable about historical events, are the ones most likely to be objective and present an accurate portrayal, analysis and interpretation of them.

[@biddyearly9262]

Kevin Myers says if you take on the British empire you will lose. Merica 🦅

[@biddyearly9262]

Kevin Myers 10.32 Well ask the United States that one Kev.

[@mrmc2465]

Ruth said Irish soldiers prevented evil German rule in ww1, quite ironic that our national budget was displayed in the German parliament for approval in 2010/11 before our own parliament saw it

[@ULYSSES-31]

I’d just the Germans with our budget faster than our own government.

[@RobertK1993]

​@@ULYSSES-31 Germans wouldn't voted for retarded thing like Brexit that for sure British did Protestant Catholic and Atheist no sense.😂

[@shanemolloy4731]

Could the UK win WW1 in 1914 ? No. It takes as long as it takes . Brits should have left in 1919 when we voted for a republic .

[@carmelmulroy6459]

After the famine and with WWI they had to get away from Britain. Northern Ireland didn't suffer from the famine the same way as the rest of the country.

[@RobertK1993]

Ulster Unionists Protestants did starve everytime they mock Irish Roman Catholics dying mock themselves the bums.😂

[@samspade5824]

Yes.

[@shanemolloy4731]

They looked to the past and thats enough .

[@johnfalconer5778]

Revisionist BS. The Brits really loved us Catholic Irish but just struggled showing that love because they had serious control issues?

[@joprocter4573]

7 ppl who caused the problem was not democratically voted on by irish

[@conorfields171]

did the irish deserve freedom what a divisive talk

[@joprocter4573]

Yes but in proper non killing way. UK politics takes slowly over years but ppl support takes to separate country.

[@RobertK1993]

​@@joprocter4573 Ulster Unionists had behaved in 1912 come 2 home rule parliament solution before 1916 instead of misbehaving constantly fascists we wouldn't had the Troubles.

[@joprocter4573]

@@RobertK1993 no you can't beat a wife NI who you did not want.. We owe you nothing.. We don't have to keel to you

[@michaellynch7331]

Everytime I look at this I am reminded of how annoying Patsy McGarry is.

[@michaellynch7331]

Mc Garry spoiled this debate

[@pauliewalnuts100]

Who are these traitors?

[@joprocter4573]

Those who after agreement with Irish government.. Irish killed and were in position of insubordination to own Irish officers. Not good soldiers or police for any society.

[@pauliewalnuts100]

@@joprocter4573 Was that even a proper sentence?

[@RobertK1993]

Anglophiles delusional west Brits should go live in thier beloved Britain.😂

[@graydomn]

You can't justify the 1916 Rising and decry the barbarism of the Provos while maintaining consistency.

[@pauliewalnuts100]

The Provos bombed indiscriminately killing women and children, executed people for simply being protestant, killed a lot of catholics.

[@graydomn]

@@pauliewalnuts100 Yep.

[@pauliewalnuts100]

@@graydomn I do justify 1916. It wasn't the rebels shelling the city and killing civilians.

[@graydomn]

@@pauliewalnuts100 They certainly did kill civilians and other Irish.

[@pauliewalnuts100]

@@graydomn In the fighting but there was no civilians killed intentionally by the rebels unlike the British who according to reports gunned down civilians who had their hands up, let alone all the shelling.

[@vincemoran587]

It's not for you to judge if it was justified. You cannot criticise those who were driven to it. You are not them or u der those material conditions.

[@aston0708]

pretty feeble attempt to undermine Irish history, any nation invaded and subjected to a brutal apartheid and a famine to boot doesnt exactly adopt queensbury rules attempting to evict the oppressor,,,The Irish suffered greatly under English domination.

[@sonnyirish3678]

The three "people" on the left are hopefully the last generation that has a slave mentality.Some things should have to be said though about the contributions made here.Myers almost loves talking about the power of the "British Empire".It was so powerful the moment it meets Imperial Germany it gets nowhere,and that is with France on its side.Britain had a fine navy but its army was small and ineffective as the battles of 1914 and 1915 on the western front show.Its army was more of a police force and not a great that of a great force. The most impressive intelligence service,and I do not take any pleasure saying this, is the KGB.An organisation that so completely infiltrated M16 that it destroyed British self belief for decades.All you have to say is Philby,Burgess,Maclean,Blunt,Prime and Bettany.Now that's a brilliant intelligence service.And that does not even get to the infiltration of the US intelligence service's penetration.Britain was a great power in relation to Ireland in 1916.However when you enter the big league of Russia,Germany,France and the USA it was just another power. And now in 2021 Russia is still a massive power,they destroyed the Islamists with ease from 2015 to 2018.If it wanted to they could roll over the countries of central Europe very quickly.And of course the USA is still the MAJOR western power who every western country runs to for help.Britain and France destroyed themselves between 1914 and 1918.

[@lesterwyoung]

O Cuiv is like Dev: A delusioned bullshitter.

[@shanemolloy4731]

As soon as WW1 comes up . Ok ok

[@recipio6561]

Kevin Myers is sadly missed from the airwaves - a total over reaction to a simple faux pas.

[@pauliewalnuts100]

You mean that West Brit. He can fuck off.

[@longmemory1620]

telling the truth about Gerry Ryan was career suicide

[@patrickgleason2066]

@@longmemory1620 Gerry Ryan's lifestyle was sadly self-destructive.

[@patrickgleason2066]

Kevin Myers was a uniquely honest voice.

[@paulymullo]

It proposed that British actions during the famine and their treatment of the Irish were a deliberate effort at genocide. It contained a sentence that has since become famous: "The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the Famine."  en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki Great Famine (Ireland