1979: MVP Voting in the 70s was Very Weird

[@joeljohnson8214]

Fred Lynn has the only grand slam in All Star Game history, and Ichiro has the only inside the park home run in All Star Game history.

[@captaincarl8230]

Fred Lynn was also the on-deck batter when Carlton Fisk hit the home run to win game 6 of the 1975 World Series and the first player to win both the ROY and MVP awards in the same season.

[@jjerg]

He ruined Atlee Hammaker's career with that all star slam.

[@dankelly5150]

@@captaincarl8230 The voters too one look at Baylor's fat RBI total of 139 and said to themselves....MVP !! But with the Angels making the playoffs too that played into it.

[@michaelvansant273]

I love We Are Family playing in the background when you begin to talk about Stargell

[@mactheknife7049]

Viewed through the eyes of 2023, everything said here makes sense. In 1979 however, the equation was simple: Baylor was the driving force behind the California Angels nearly making the World Series, and Stargell was the unquestioned driving force behind the Pittsburgh Pirates not only getting there, but winning it. The number of people who viewed players through SABRmetric stats was, generously, in triple digits worldwide. Viewed in the prism of their time? The only mystery was how Hernandez managed to tie Stargell for the NL award.

[@nearoblivion5839]

No way this has less than 100 views. Keep up the good work dude

[@zachr26]

Thanks!

[@roberthuot7887]

@@zachr26 you only reply to compliments?

[@panivino28]

Loved the video! Lynn was one of my favorite players. I saw on national TV (no espn) the 1975 World Series. Lots of great players during that era.

[@mbd501]

Lynn and Jim Rice were quite a combo in the Red Sox lineup in those days. In '79, they both batted over .300, with 39 HRs each and over 100 RBIs each. But the Red Sox had no pitching back then.

[@panivino28]

@@mbd501 I'm pretty sure that Lynn and Rice both came in 1975. Rice had a broken leg and did not play in the world series against the Reds, pity!

[@mbd501]

@@panivino28 And I forgot about Dwight Evans in RF. The Red Sox probably had the best outfield in baseball during that mid-late 70s period.

[@derick-smith]

Awesome job Zach! I love any mention of Bobby Grich, as I think he might be the most underrated player in history. Certainly a deserving case for the HOF. I can't wait to watch more of your content!

[@zachr26]

Thanks! Grich probably does get a lot more of a HOF look if he’s on the ballot today than he did in his time - modern stats look a lot better for him than traditional ones. These days, his numbers look like a Hall of Famer. Way underrated all-time

[@RanlamSeddit]

As soon as I heard the, We Are Family, music bed underneath your Willie Stargelll profile, I gave you a like. Very nice touch! A little eye for detail there and I appreciate it.

[@pdidz7490]

Very, very good video. Reminds me a bit of the 1988 NL MVP vote when my boy Darryl lost out to Gibson. Tho tbf I just looked it up on baseball reference and Gibson had a better WAR than Straw that year.

[@zachr26]

Yeah, the 1988 race is interesting. Strawberry had a good case, and so did a few others - a lot of good candidates, no great ones. Would have definitely not argued with Strawberry winning, though, if he had.

[@RM-ed1if]

Another Pirates player that was pretty good back in the 70's was Richie Zisk. As a Cincinnati Reds fan, I can tell you that guy was a thorn in our side.

[@crowtservo]

While the Pirates got lucky with the 1979 MVP voting, you can make a good case that it was made up for in 1991 when the MVP went to Terry Pendleton who won it over Barry Bonds for some inexplicable reason.

[@gerrypeet4861]

The writers hated Barry Bonds then and the they still hate him.

[@davidmccright3764]

Has anyone ever matched Stargell’s feat of MVP, NLCS MVP and World Series MVP in the same season?

[@flame-sky7148]

The closest thing would have been 1966 Frank Robinson. He won the Triple Crown, regular season MVP, and World Series MVP. They didn't have an ALCS or NLCS until three years later. Maybe he would have won that too.

[@3stacksofHighSociety]

Hershiser won the CY in 88, as well as LCS and World Series MVP

[@patrickmoreau7592]

Very good video You can’t compare the 79 MVP because it was a different time Today with trout getting MVPS for being in last place!! I’ll take 79

[@mikejanacone8328]

Play obviously Willie Stargell wasn’t the best player in the national league in 1979, but the Pirates had a magical season behind their leader, and they wanted to give the future Hall of Famer an MVP award on his résumé

[@johnjohnsonjohn]

Oh brother, the mvp shenanigans were just kicking off. The era of relievers followed...

[@Trumpisscum-420]

Looking back at how many relievers almost won Cy Young awards in the 70's thru mid 80's, one could argue that was the "era if the reliever" not any period after.

[@italianwaterice9594]

@@Trumpisscum-420 *of the reliever

[@gerrypeet4861]

What? You mean people don't revere the relieving prowess of Willie Hernandez?

[@tad1980]

But Willie Stargell meant SO much to the first-place Pirates. "Pops!" Leader of the Family! In fact, he picked "We Are Family" as the team's theme song, and that was iconic for the team and the city. Best player in 1979? Maybe not. Most valuable? DEFINITELY.

[@Trumpisscum-420]

Now you're gonna piss off all the analytics fanboys who think we should just automatically give the MVP to the player with the highest WAR. There are some aspects of a player's "value" that don't show up on a stat sheet.

[@crowtservo]

@@Trumpisscum-420 Yep, I wonder how much value Cutch is adding to the 2023 Pirates.

[@zachr26]

I came to a similar conclusion at the end of the video. Stargell’s stats probably don’t put him near the top of the race if it took place today, but his contributions on and off the field were extremely valuable to that team

[@mikemcnally557]

Pops was the leader of that team. You ask Dave Parker who was MVP I guarantee he'd say Pops. He also won MVP NLCS and World series

[@jamesd2128]

Good points. If you weren't alive and watching what Pop's did in the Pirate's pennant chase, you lose perspective on what he meant to his team. He also validated his co-MVP award with his incredible post season performance, a remarkable year indeed.

[@bewood9637]

Loved Freddy Lynn... watched him with the mid-80s Orioles.. what a swing.. hit the exact amount of hrs every year then get hurt..

[@zachr26]

Four straight seasons of exactly 23 home runs, seven straight of 21-25…It’s really too bad he couldn’t stay healthy later in his career

[@Bc232klm]

Good stuff. Just found your channel. I like the subjects, presentation, and production value. Easy sub

[@mustbtrouble]

DYK “Pops”, Jimmy Rollins & Dontrelle willis all played at Encinal HS in Oakland.

[@bmilam5]

Outstanding job on this piece! I was a huge Stargell fan but grew up a Cardinals lifer. Keep up the nice work!

[@MrDrummerdood]

Great video and analysis!

[@zachr26]

Thank you!

[@andyprzbylek9313]

Willie carried the Pirates to the title. The last month of the year Willie was incredible. Expos and Phillies were awesome that year. Very stressful last month in one of the best pennant races ever. The quality of teams at the top were Willie deserved the MVP!

[@MarkyBillsonIV]

Exactly!

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

Statistical evidence please - and you don't have to limit yourself to modern metrics, ANY stats

[@mantis10_surf85]

The Butt Pirates 🏴‍☠️ were great in 1979

[@theWilburM]

@@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes See zach's reply to my earlier post where he lists trailing and late/close batting for Stargell that year.

[@ricogomez4020]

No.

[@robfigulski1139]

They give the award NOW to the best player. Back then it was the most valuable to the team. Stargell was far and away more valuable to the Pirates than any other player in 1979. This is what happens when stats are too heavily accouted for...

[@UTNatlChamps]

Dave Parker was way more valuable, than Stargell.

[@robfigulski1139]

@@UTNatlChamps Ask Dave Parker himself... He will tell you Stargell as well... There is way more value to a team other than stats... You millennial stat nerds just don't get it

[@theWilburM]

@@UTNatlChamps Parker was a great player, but don't lose sight of the fact that he had Stargell batting behind him... big difference in the pitches he might see.

[@acason4]

It’s like you don’t understand what “WAR” actually means. 🤦🏼‍♂️ Stats are exactly what you should measure: you remove bias, opinion & feelings & let ONLY the raw empirical data dictate the outcome specifically the stats that account for ALL data & translate to Wins/Runs created: WAR OBP SLG OPS OPS+ It doesn’t matter if a team wins 110 games or a team wins 70 games. It’s about who added the most value to their team which is the WAR & OPS+ leader.

[@theWilburM]

@@acason4 If only all stats were perfectly aligned with winning and nothing else matters. Have you ever played a team sport? Performance on the field is a big part of success but hardly the only thing, especially when it comes to the highest levels of team success.

[@DunYappin]

Good vid. I'd get another mic bc your voice sounds very condensed.

[@adhdflow5121]

Many things are not measurable such as being a clubhouse leader. It is why they are called intangibles... Fred Lynn was never a clubhouse leader. Both Stargell and Baylor were leaders who helped their teams win their division with their clubhouse presence. QED

[@TheJoeyG88]

Great video! One thing you left out though was the factor that Stargell missed about 50 games, if you pro-rate his numbers (not necessarily saying that you should of course) I believe he would have had 41 HRs 110 RBIs.. Not sure if the voters considered that. On its face the 79 tie used to bother me however (and I know this is not part of the actual equation) I think the way Pops won the LCS and World Series MVPs and led that magical underdog team to the Championship somewhat validates the suspect 1979 Regular season vote. As for The AL vote Lynn just got flat out ROBBED.. and I had no idea what an incredible season he had, Thanks for the updates, Great Video

[@VianoMusicAcademy]

Love the “We Are Family” track for Willie Stargell!

[@thunderbird2000]

Back in the day MVP meant what player was most valued to their respective team. The Angles and Pirates do not make the playoffs without Baylor or Stargell. Ops, ops+, and WAR was not used in 1979. Sometimes stats do not tell the whole story. I’ve seen several players hit a ton of HR when losing big or up big (Sosa). I’ve seen QBs get 150+ yards and a few TDs in a blowout (Kirk Cousins) but when looking at the box score it appears to be a great game. If you go by pure stats, Ohtani should be the MVP every year because he is a top hitter and pitcher in the league, nobody else does what he does. Wouldn’t he brings more value because he is elite at both hitting at pitching?

[@jonsher7682]

Bobby Grich played on the same time (Angels) as Baylor and was more valuable to his team, producing 6 bWAR, nearly double of that as Baylor, who put up just 3.7 bWAR. Likewise, on the Pirates, Dave Parker was worth nearly three times as much than Willie Stargell in terms of bWAR. Baylor won because he led the league in RBIs, a poor measure because it is heavily dependent on the OBP of other batters and on batting order.

[@rdspam]

Yes - valuable player. Stargell wouldn’t have won “best player”, but he was the heart and soul of that team.

[@turkwelsch]

As a point of comparison regarding stats versus leader ship and performing in the clutch One needs to look at Barry Bonds in the 90s Pirates he had the stats but when I came to playoff time he totally folded. I like Willie, who won the playoffs game performed like the MVP that he was.

[@alexsweet8585]

It's the Most Valuable Player Award, not The Guy With the Best Stats Award.

[@davidmitchell6873]

Thank you.

[@blatty2646]

How do you have less than 1000 subs? This is awesome work

[@thetexanshurtme]

What a fantastic video. Keep it up

[@zachr26]

Thanks!

[@minty_orphan]

No mention of Dave Winfield? He led the NL in fWAR, bWAR, OPS+, RBI, and total bases in addition to winning a Gold Glove in RF. He was obviously far more deserving than Stargell but also more deserving than Hernandez. The bias was undoubtedly because he was on a 68 win small market team, which is a shame.

[@zachr26]

Yeah, I chose to focus on Hernandez because the tie was as notable as any part of this situation, and because Hernandez would have been a very reasonable choice to win the award outright. If we wanted to open it up to everyone, Winfield/Hernandez would have made a very good race in 2023 imo. Winfield just didnt get a mention because he didn’t get quite as egregiously screwed (in losing to Hernandez) as Lynn did. He had a great, MVP-caliber year that season though

[@rdspam]

And how many of those were used in 1979? He had more RBI. Stargell was leader and captain of a WS winning team. Winfield May have won a “Best Player” award, but that’s not what MVP stands for. He’ll have to settle for 1st ballot HOF inductee.

[@darkstar92772]

Then there are things that can't be measured by stats. Willie Stargell was a leader in the club house. He was no doubt the most valuable player on the 1979 Pirates. I think he earned it.

[@acason4]

No. 🤦🏼‍♂️ Facts don’t care about “feelings”. He OBJECTIVELY wasn’t even the best player on his own team.

[@RD22]

Who was more more "Valuable" than Willie Stargell to a team in 1979? Pops influence on We are Family Pirates and leadership won a World Series. Although Fred Lynn did get hosed in 1979, it was because Jim Rice had an Awesome season as well, and took votes away.

[@NoUploadJustComment]

Keith Hernandez should be in the Hall of Fame

[@MB-gd6be]

True !!! Under which team? he played good for both his prime year teams...

[@robheaton]

@@MB-gd6beHernandez is probably spiritually a Met so it would be a crime to see him in the hall with a STL cap, and I say that as a Cardinals fan. But he was also booed at Busch just as often as he was cheered, so I don’t think it’s much of a decision to make at all.

[@gerrypeet4861]

No he doesn't. Well maybe now since they are putting in Harold Baines and Scott Rolen. The Hall of Fame doesn't really mean anything anymore.

[@54raynor]

@@gerrypeet4861Scott Rolen is the 3rd base variation of Keith Hernandez and actually has a higher career WAR.

[@pglanville]

​@@gerrypeet4861it still does

[@aegisofhonor]

this continued into the 80s with several baffling picks for MVP including a relief pitcher winning MVP in 1984 basically exclusively because he was very good in relief that year and played on the World Series champion Phillies and pretty much 100% likely would have NOT been chosen if he had not been on the World Series winning team.

[@Trumpisscum-420]

I'm assuming you mean Willie Hernandez of the 1984 Tigers. He won MVP and Cy Young of the AL. The Phillies won the WS in 83 not 84 and they didn't have a pitcher win MVP either season. They had John Denny win the Cy Young award in 83 but he was a starter and i don't see how anyone could argue that he didn't deserve the Cy Young in 83, so I don't think that's who you meant. Anyways, it wasn't really "baffling", relief pitchers were just valued much more in the mid 70's thru mid 80's. There were plenty of other times in that era where a reliever almost won MVP or Cy Young award. People just had a different idea of what made a player valuable back then, and some of those aspects aren't measured on a stat sheet. In those days (and most of baseball history) MVP awards often went to a player on a team that had at least some post season success that year. The thinking, i guess is, how "valuable" were you to your team if your team didn't win games? Does it mean that they were completely wrong for giving Hernandez the award just because that line of thinking doesn't fit in line with a completely overated WAR stat that didn't even exist at the time? Or is it wrong to try to retroactively judge a decision made 40 years ago because it doesn't match current thinking?

[@mbd501]

@@Trumpisscum-420 The Orioles beat the Phillies in the WS in '83.

[@UTNatlChamps]

@@Trumpisscum-420The Phillies won in 1980, not 1983. And WAR, while imperfect, is by far the best all-encompassing, single metric we have to judge the value of a player. Much better than anything else in isolation.

[@johnmoore2695]

Willie Hernandez left handed pitcher for the tigers Phillies didn't play in the world series in(1984) the padres played in the world series

[@flame-sky7148]

@@Trumpisscum-420 Yea that gave the relief pitcher Rollie Fingers the MVP of Rickey Henderson in 1981, both the A's and Brewers finished 1st in a weird season. It happened again in 1992 they gave the MVP to Dennis Eckersley over Kirby Puckett. Horrible voting. Even though they were HOF pitchers, all time greats were robbed. Like whose the best relief pitcher of all time, M. Rivera, okay, well then how many MVPs does he have?

[@chriswaters2466]

Willie broke my heart Oriole fan.

[@russs7574]

Keith Hernandez, he of the "Magic Loogie." Nice game, pretty boy. Still one of my favorite Seinfeld episodes.

[@davidvenersky5801]

Pop’s brought the Pirates back from down 3-1 in the series something so rare in baseball in “79”. He hit the go ahead homer that won that historic series. Hence co-mvp.

[@greghoadley1815]

Great video...except for one thing: absolutely no mention of Dave Winfield, who smashed 34 homers and led the league with 118 RBI and a whopping 166 OPS+. He also won a Gold Glove and came in 3rd in the balloting. (Incidentally, this was Winfield's finest season.) I understand you bringing up Dave Parker, since he also played for the "We Are Family" Pirates. And yes, I know the Padres stunk that year. But not even an honorable mention of Winfield? Good analysis overall, but I'm disappointed by this omission.

[@zachr26]

Yeah, Winfield is a guy that I definitely could have (and maybe should have) talked about. Since Keith Hernandez was a pretty good candidate in his own right, I chose to focus on him as the guy who got robbed of winning the award outright. Winfield has as good a case as anyone, though.

[@stankpictures2388]

One of the MVP votes I always found so weird was the 1972 AL MVP. Sure, Dick Allen won easily with his best year ever and there are some familiar names after him - Rudi, Fisk, Mercer - Wilbur Wood won 24 games and Luis Tiant won 15 with a 1.91 ERA. But Detroit's Eddie Brinkman finished 9th. Being an all glove, no bat player like Brinkman, you would figure he would have to have had his best offensive production ever to get into the top 10. But Brinkman hit .206 (yes .206) with 6 HR and 49 RBI and his Slug was only .279! Granted, he was a great defensive SS and maybe voters just appreciated it more back then. But he finished above teammate Mickey Lolich, who won 22 games and pitched 327 innings, Catfish Hunter and Jim Palmer who each won 21 and John Mayberry (.298 25HR 100 RBI). Even Hunter and Palmer hit better than Brinkman.

[@lawman592]

Brinkman's finish in the election for the 1972 AL MVP might've been influenced by his manager, Billy Martin, saying he should've been MVP that year.

[@Anglovox]

Looking back....My Orioles really should have done WHATEVER was necessary to keep Bobby Grich happy in Baltimore!!!! Along with Mark Belanger, these made up the smoothest double-play combo EVER!!!...They made it look easy.

[@gerrypeet4861]

Mark Belanger was 37 when he left the Orioles. They probably kept him for too long as it was.

[@hpillsbury06]

Seeing those names brings back alot of memories. The Royals, Pirates Twins and Angels. I saw them on Tv and heard it on radio many times these guys. 76-80 so now I struggle to know who is playing today. LOL

[@ThePeteFace]

The main reason Baylor won is RBI's, as it was considered a way more important stat back then.

[@tankwfw]

Marty Marion won the MVP in 1944 with a 4.4 WAR (obviously didn't exist at the time but still). He ranked 14th. 13 other guys arguably had more valuable seasons and he still got the award

[@zachr26]

Yeah, a guy with a .686 OPS and 6 home runs winning an MVP looks pretty crazy in retrospect. His numbers that people would’ve cared about at that time (.267 average, 6 home runs, 63 RBI, 1 stolen base), were all not impressive at all either

[@mbd501]

How in the world did he win MVP? His team won the pennant, but teammate Stan Musial had far better stats. Musial led the NL with a .990 OPS and scored 112 runs to Marion's 50.

[@mbd501]

I'll speculate and try to answer my own question. Musial had won MVP in '43. The Cards repeated as NL champs in '44. But perhaps back then, sportswriters liked to spread the wealth around for awards. So since Musial had won it the year before, they decided to name the Cards' good defensive shortstop MVP instead.

[@lawman592]

Did his defense play a role?

[@FluffeyPandasWorld]

There were zoom calls in 1979? The 70's really were weird.

[@zachr26]

Been waiting for this one. Great comment

[@FluffeyPandasWorld]

@@zachr26 Thanks nice video

[@mikefromminneapolis]

In Ye Olden Times, things were considerably worse for great players on non-championship teams. In 1941, 1942, 1946, and 1947, Ted Williams won one AL MVP award (in 1943-45, he was busy with that WWII thing). In 1941, Teddy Ballgame hit .406. In 1942, he won the Triple Crown, in 1947, he won another Triple Crown. Zero MVPs. He did win the AL MVP in 1946. His OPS for these four years were 1.287, 1,147, 1.164, and 1.133, each a league leading figure. Williams led the league in OPS in 1948 and 1949 as well. He managed to win his second and final AL MVP award in 1949. In 1941, '42 and '47, Williams finished second to New York Yankees during years in which the Yankees won AL pennants.

[@andygerman1079]

Interesting video and while i agree you bring up some very interesting points about Fred Lynn getting robbed, Willie Stargell's co-win was so much more than the numbers.

[@zachr26]

Certainly - Baylor’s win was too. People cared a lot more about those other factors in awards back then, and I think that’s kinda cool! Like I say at the end, as much as it’s good to be right (by the numbers), the other way can be fun too

[@lemmiwinks09]

That being said, Pops absolutely deserved the ‘79 NLCS and WS MVPs. He was on a mission once the postseason started. If Fred Lynn wins MVP in ‘79, there’s a good chance that’s enough to push him to legit HoF consideration.

[@ricogomez4020]

Why is Harold Baines and Ron Santo in? Politics!

[@rohnwest4497]

Very well done!! Thnx !!

[@keithconnell8460]

When I was looking at the thumb nail I couldn't place Lynne. I had completely forgotten about his days in Boston. I still remember him on those old Angel teams.

[@texasturner2313]

It seems like the MVP voters focused more on HR and RBIs back then and on into the early 80’s. MVP should be based on the best players in their respective leagues regardless of what their team record is. That goes for any sport imo.

[@DaDitka]

I was going to say that but then I saw your comment. So I'll just agree. The in-depth numbers weren't around much back then, so most people looked at the "obvious" stats like RBIs and steals and BA. Given this as the criteria, I can understand Baylor winning, like Andre Dawson in 1987.

[@spaceviking4966]

Right on all three counts. Lynn & Hernandez should've won the MVP awards. Also, yes the Angels front office can't put it all together.

[@gabe9346]

I'm not sure if the voting is before or after the post season, but Stargell was an absolute buzzsaw in the post season winning NLCS and WS MVP. So if post season glory was fresh on the voters' minds, that probably swayed many.

[@calebspangler132]

Assuming it’s like today’s it is voted on before the postseason.

[@camicawber]

The MVP voting was done before the postseason, like today. And there's no disputing that he earned both of those postseason MVP awards. He had a 1.753 OPS in the NLCS, and 1.208 in the World Series. His cWPA for the World Series, incidentally, was 38.96 - probably because his 2-run HR in the 6th inning of Game 7 gave the Pirates a 1-run lead that they never relinquished.

[@luisvaldes1568]

Spot on with Fred Lynn!

[@robertosborne8694]

If you are going to base awards primarily on numbers, then maybe it’s time to give out separate awards for performance of the year based on metrics, and MVP, as the latter, at least before analytics became popular, took into account unmeasurables, such as leadership abilities, which unquestionably Stargell possessed that helped push the Pirates to the World Championship. It did also takes into account team success, as one would question how valuable a player was to a team that in Hernandez’s case finished 12 games out of first in 79. In pitching there is not this problem, as one can be a dominant pitcher on a poor team and win the Cy Young, such as Steve Carlton did with the Phillies. I think a case can be made for separate awards for performance of the year and MVP. For instance Ohtani of the Angels could certainly merit performance of the year, but his presence only made the Angels a mediocre team instead of a worse one in 2021. I know I might be talking semantics, but I think a distinction can be made.

[@ronsmac]

Back in the 70s and 80s runs batted in was given much more weight than it is today.

[@captaincarl8230]

This might be weird to you but back then there was no such thing as WAR, OPS, OPS+ or any other SABR and advanced stats that we have today. BTW, SLG = Total Bases divided by At Bats. I have no clue how you have "SLG - in essence, at bats per plate appearance".

[@zachr26]

Good catch on the slugging percentage definition. That was a typing error. That is now fixed.

[@MB-gd6be]

K. Hernandez is a Hall of Famer!

[@kevinmassey1164]

Didn’t hear you mention that Baylor also lead the league in runs leading the Angels to the franchise’s first playoff appearance…ahead of KC.

[@zachr26]

I did mention the Angels making their first ever playoff birth in 1979, around 7 and a half minutes in. That was definitely an extremely heavily contributing factor to him winning the MVP award, and in a close race, I would consider it a reasonable thing to push a candidate over the hump. (I personally wouldn’t consider Baylor vs Lynn/Brett to be all that close, but I can understand the argument, even though I don’t agree with it)

[@steveswangler6373]

Why is it weird that in the 70’s they voted for players that were MOST VALUABLE not had the best stats. Who cares if a guy hits a ton of home runs and has a high average if the extreme majority of his rbi and he’s come when the game is a blowout but when the game is close, he strikes out? Or a player that is near the league lead in getting thrown out for stupid hustle? I’m talking about bryce harper- 2021 mvp despite not one important hit and a low average in important games. The 2021 Phillies had a better record in games harper didn’t play than games he did play. So who cares about stats? A-Rod win mvp for last place teams. Change the name of the award or create another for “best stats” because modern mvp’s aren’t necessarily valuable. As a Phillies fan it disgusts me watching harper strikeout in big situations. $300 million for 2 big hits in 4 years. Who is more valuable? The guy who hits a homerun in a 10-1 game or the guy that hits .250 but gets a bases clearing double when the team needs it and does it consistently? Pressure situations are when players show how valuable they are- Chase Utley played better the more tense the situation mr overrated harper wilts in the moment, but Harper has two mvp’s because he had gassy numbers- but I’ll take Utley every day of the week and beat you 5 out of 7. Mvp voting and hall of fame voting are a joke because they are done by arrogant petty sportswriters

[@TMC1982Part2]

0:00: I in all honesty, didn't recognize Mike Schmidt right away since he doesn't have his moustache.

[@stuksy4321]

Baylor did "feel" like he was actually the MVP that year. In an era of analysis and metrics and stats that no one had heard of back then, it's so easy to see it any number of different ways. He was clutch and his RBIs were monumental. Took the Angels to their first Division championship. It wasn't that controversial really (except to Red Sox fans probably). But they had a good team, Autry collected lots of good players. Fred Lynn was so good though and he ended up playing for the Angels!

[@j.s.friedman9649]

Never mind that they didn't even have stats called OPS or War back then

[@goobah6072]

Have you stopped to consider they took in things that can't be measured in stats?

[@kevhead1525]

Media hyped up the Pops/we are family thing. Tho the voting is supposed to take place before the post season, I never truly believed that.

[@Pwnzistor]

Mike Trout should have won ROY and MVP the same year

[@bnegs521]

These are cases where voters were voting for players who were on teams who won their division

[@stanogrady893]

Lynn is the most underrated outfielder ever. Perhaps it’s because he didn’t have a long career but he could do everything. Only Griffey Jr is close in skill set.

[@mcneildelancy4536]

Fred Lynn had Jim Rice,Carlton Fisk who team's had to pitch to him, Don Baylor had ????

[@54raynor]

Don Baylor’s MVP is very easy to explain: voters have historically had an irrational love for RBI. Add in the fact that the Angels made their first-ever playoff appearance, and his MVP makes perfect sense from a voter’s perspective. Basically, Don Baylor was the Juan Gonzalez of his time.

[@gary6754]

yea, boomer baseball fans believe RBIs and Wins are the only stats that really matter

[@bobbyshizz2138]

You play to win the game! Hello?!? -- Herman Edwards.

[@axelagosto5196]

Stargell is not not only a slugger was the heart and soul of Pittsburgh

[@scottmitchell1974]

Well done!! The 1979 AL MVP has been on my mind most of my life. I started following Lynn when he was an Oriole. It's a shame he wasn't healthier. He had absolute HoF talent.

[@Riles3152]

How did Fred Lynn make 9X all-star teams, win an AL MVP, have a career BA of .283, and still not make the HOF?

[@gheller2261]

Even as an 11 year old in '79 it made no sense to me that a player with fewer than 400 at bats won the MVP award. Stargell won based on the whole "Pops" persona. In the AL, the entire season was about Don Baylor but, yes, Fred Lynn had the better year, his last great year. Another silly MVP was Kirk Gibson in '88 with a grand total of 76 RBIs, which was not even tops on his team.

[@zachr26]

‘88 was a weird MVP vote, in that there wasn’t really a slam dunk candidate outside of Gibson either. A lot of decent candidates (Strawberry, Will Clark, etc had a good case) but nobody that was, like, terribly robbed by Gibson winning it either.

[@gerrypeet4861]

Analytics is ruining the game. It has it's place but Christ too many people have watched Moneyball and think that's what really matters.

[@davidjohnson6611]

I was a baby Yankee fan back then but I had tremendous respect for the Red Sox especially Freddy Lynn he was an earlier version of the kid kind of

[@54raynor]

Fred Lynn played well after Ted Williams.

[@flame-sky7148]

Stargell and the Pirates won the World Series in 1971 & 1979. Stargell had a slightly better season than Torre in 71 (check out the WAR), and they robbed him of the MVP that year, so I think they were trying to make up for it (It's a clear robbery when you have better numbers and your team finishes 1st). In 1979 Stargell also won NLCS MVP and also the World Series MVP. So him winning the regular season MVP was sort of the trifecta. Parker won All Star MVP, so the Pirates took over baseball that year. Oh and the Steelers won the super bowl that year too.

[@petenrita]

Fred Lynn was magical with the Sox

[@JR-zu9jk]

That stat should be Lynn, Ichiro & Judge

[@thevirginian5746]

Yep! Judge was robbed...

[@frustyak]

Playing a little Devil's Advocate, should we be holding MVP voters accountable using statistics that didn't exist in 1979 (WAR, OPS, OPS+)?

[@jld593]

Fred was great at sliding to make a good catch like a great one.

[@user-tl5fi9lz9z]

Dave Parker should be in the Hall of Fame!

[@E.HondaSF]

5:50 cocaine is a helluva drug, BUT those outfields/walld promoted bad bounces

[@darrinlindsey]

MVP stands for Most Valuable Player, not best player. If you want a BPL award, you need to lobby for a Best Player in the League award. Stargell's season led the Pirates to a Championship. Hernandez didn't even get the Cardinals to the post season.

[@Il_Exile_lI]

The best player is by definition the most valuable. Team success just muddies the waters because it is impacted so much more by the entire roster than a single player. Like, people made this argument in 2021 in favor of Vlad because the Blue Jays were a better team than the Angels. But any sane person knows the Blue Jays would have been even better if they could have swapped Vlad for Ohtani. Vlad was on a better team, but Ohtani was more valuable.

[@darrinlindsey]

@@Il_Exile_lI I didn't say that the MVP has to be from a winning team. The example I used just happened to be that way, and was part of the video.

[@Il_Exile_lI]

@@darrinlindsey The Pirates had one of the best pitching staffs in MLB and led the NL in runs scored and team OPS. The Cardinals were middle of the pack in both. Stargell didn't "lead his team to a Championship," he just happened to be on a much better team than Hernandez. Obviously Stargell contributed to his team's offensive success, but he didn't do that alone and he had nothing to do with his team's dominant pitching. Just because his team was better doesn't mean he was a more valuable player.

[@darrinlindsey]

@@Il_Exile_lI Obviously you're not old enough to have seen that season or World Series. Stargell WAS the leader of that team. His nickname was Pops. They had a good pitching staff, but not great. They had the best closer at the time, but closer was a relatively new term in baseball. The team was a group of misfits that came together and gelled. Without Stargell as the glue, they wouldn't have had a chance.

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

They didn't have and couldn't use those weird stats like WAR and OPS+ back then.

[@wontnameme]

Check the betting lines for n the 79 mvp. I would bet someone made some good loot choosing a rando like Baylor

[@geoffroi-le-Hook]

WAR and OPS+ had not been invented yet ... and very few thought of OPS

[@hushpuckena126]

Lynn failing to win the 1979 AL MVP was a ******* joke, even worse than Keith Hernandez not winning the NL award outright.

[@PhatLvis]

It is simply a mistake to think that team record should even be relevant to the award; nor should one's team be a factor in any way. Reductio ad absurdum: a guy bats .270 with 25 HR, 88 RBI, etc., for a team on which no other player hits above .240, has more than 15 HR or 65 RBI, etc.; this player would far and away be the single "most valuable player" relative to his teammates, yet would not rank in the top tier of his league in any stat. The term "Most Valuable" was simply a nifty, arbitrary title, meant to be interchangeable with "Best." It's unfortunate that it has wrought much semantic confusion for some.

[@johnporter4628]

Baylor won because of the RBIs, a stat that used to be given a weight out of proportion to its value.

[@sdgakatbk]

The MVP is usually debatable. Stargell was not the best player on the Bucs in '79 but he was the spiritual center of the team and the glue. There are elements that are not captured in numbers. I thought he deserved MVP in 1971 instead of Joe Torre. I don't think that was necessarily in the voters minds, but 1979 may have made up for 1971. There is the question of a great player on a bad team or at least a mediocre team. The Phillies were very bad in 1972, but where would they have been without Steve Carlton's 27-10 record with a 1.97 ERA? He led both leagues with a 12.5 WAR, which is a reflection on how good he was. In 1970, the Big Red Machine got in gear and Johnny Bench won his first MVP. A great player in a great year, yes. However, was he more valuable than 2nd place vote getter Billy Williams? Bench had 148 rbis to Williams' 129 and 45 home runs to 42. Billy had a higher batting average .322 to .293 and more hits 205 to 177. He also scored 40% more runs than Bench did 137 to 97. Adding runs and rubs together, he outdistanced Bench 266 to 245. A case can be made that he was more effective producing runs than Bench was in 1970. Bench was clearly better defensively. A question is whether Bench was more valuable to the Reds than Williams was to Cubs which I think is inconclusive. The Reds probably would have still won the NL West without Bench. The Cubs would have probably double digits games behind the Pirates in the East instead of 5 back.

[@stevenyanchak549]

JR Richard should have won the Cy Young Award in 1979.

[@willshad]

Stargell was given a lot of votes simply because people felt he was 'owed' an MVP due to not winning it in a few monster seasons earlier in his career. A sort of lifetime achievement award. Dave Parker had a better season than Willie on the very same team and got very little MVP support. Dave Winfield was the best player in the league that season.

[@aVerveQuest]

Say what you will about the 79 vote but Stargell certainly proved The narrative correct by pushing the pirates to the planet and being the by far most valuable player in the winning the world series....... He was the on fields general awarding the stars that the pirates wore on their hats for exemplary plays..... They all saw him as a second or even first father

[@stevehardman4686]

Not even going to bother with the rest, just looking at 1979 and Fred Lynn, his away slash line was 276/371/461. That is not someone who was screwed out of being MVP numbers, that is a good player. It's the 386/470/798 at home that makes the overall numbers pop, and shows why statistics need to be put into proper context. If you don't adjust for home ballparks, well Dante Bichette and Andres Galarraga were robbed, I mean Galarraga hit 370 one year with a OPS of 1.005, yet he was tenth in MVP voting, what's up with that, and his home/away splits were much less drastic than anything Lynn put during his Boston years? Look at Lynn's home and away splits for his entire time in Boston, and then look at his stats after he was traded away, and you will see how greatly his numbers were inflated by his home park(it wasn't just his back and health issues that led to reduced stats after the trade to California, as popular opinion would suggest)

[@Il_Exile_lI]

OPS+ does adjust for ballpark factors and Lynn's was still way better than Baylor's.

[@zachr26]

While I think that Lynn was certainly helped a lot by Fenway, I do not think that would have kept him from winning the MVP if that voting was done today - 2015 Josh Donaldson, for example, had pretty similar home/road splits and still came away with the MVP.

[@stevehardman4686]

@@zachr26 Ok, let's take that example. 2015 Donaldson did put up much better numbers at home than on the road, 2016 Donaldson was someone better at home, 2017 was better on the road, as was 2018. The benefit of hitting in Rogers Centre is not directly comparable to Fenway in the 70's, if it happens once or twice ok, but look at Lynn's entire career with Boston, it is a massive difference every single year, like .300-.400 some years and only once under .100 difference. I know that overall he was a better player than Baylor that year, and he led the league in OPS, but if you take out the home games, his OPS is nowhere near the top 10 in the league_10th place was .901, Lynn's road mark was.831). There certainly is a history of players not winning MVP because voters recognize that stats are inflated by their home park, going back as far as Ted Williams and Vern Stephens. Lynn's OPS relative to everybody on the road was 134, at home it was 235, why not Sizto Lezcano who is long forgotten but was in my first pack of baseball cards ever when I was a kid, frankly he was a better pick for MVP in 1979 when all is looked at objectively at the time(he won a Gold Glove in RF that year, although time has shown his defense was actually a detriment, unlike Lynn), and his stats on offense were better all around when adjusted for context (he almost certainly would have put up better numbers than Lynn that year had they both played in the same home park)

[@zachr26]

@stevehardman4686 Lezcano is interesting. If I had to pick any AL player not named Fred Lynn that year, I’m probably going with George Brett. Lezcano has a solid case, though

[@stevehardman4686]

@@zachr26 Agreed, with all we know now, Brett seems like the best choice, although he definitely had a huge home park boost if you look at every season of his career up to 1980. Not sure how Lezcano finished 15th when they thought he had gold glove D, and time has shown that his home ballpark was hurting his numbers, that road OPS of 1.041 compared to just .935 at home means a lot, again, wish everybody would get to call Boston their home team for a couple years just to see what kind of ridiculous numbers they can put up

[@mertonhirsch4734]

Regarding Lynn v. Brett, that doesn't make sense. OPS+ already affects WAR so if Lynn had an big advantage in OPS+ and Brett almost matched him in WAR then Brett must have made up for the difference in OPS+ in some other way. You can't take an all around value metric and then give a player a boost because he was also better in a subcomponent of that value metric. Brett had a higher WPA 6.0 to 5.4 (win probability above average) which uses a different formula than WAR and WAA. It includes situational hitting. WPA is also only based on hitting events and almost all defensive metrics show Brett to have been the first or second best fielding 3B that year. Adjusted batting runs also rates Brett better. OPS is problematic since Fenway was the best hitters' park in the league about 12% better than average for any given hitter.

[@zachr26]

The goal there was to show that, at least on a base level, Lynn had a better offensive season that year (which, since OPS+ adjusts for Fenway being a hitter’s haven in 1979, that becomes a very valuable metric for us to do that). Brett ended up with more defensive WAR than Lynn that season, but Lynn was still plus in that respect, and certainly good enough to not be penalized relative to his competition in our perception. The biggest thing that made up the difference is the position adjustment for bWAR - the 1979 positional adjustment for center field is -1.0, while third base was a positive 2.5.

[@mertonhirsch4734]

@@zachr26 I think Lynn had the best season, and I'm not really sure that third base should have had a positional edge over CF in that time period. Brett was selected as Baseball Digest player of the year. If KC hadn't had a horrible stretch, going 1-14 from the end of June to mid July Brett probably would have won though. The Sporting News actually took Stargell as MVP. I'll add that Darrell Porter had 7.6 WAR with a tremendous season including over 100 runs, RBI and walks and a .421 OB%, and catchers may get short changed in WAR since catchers have a lot of wear and tear and have to be ready even on off nights, and also we don't really have a good accounting of their impact on the pitching staff.

[@lambowolf]

Remember the name of the award is Most "Valuable" Player not Best Player.

[@ismaelnunez3888]

Dave Winfield should've gotten more votes.

[@zachr26]

Absolutely

[@ejflor1313]

Prime Keith Hernandez is the most handsome man in history