2012 Laughton Naval History Lecture - The War of 1812 at the Bicentenary (Andrew Lambert)

[@Coppit]

"exarmydoc" seems to very triggered that Lambert explains quite brilliantly how America was defeated in a humiliating way in the War of 1812.

[@TheIceman567]

Lol yeah right lambert leaves out a lot of facts in his work. And no the USA wasn’t at all humiliated or defeated in the war if 1812. You just sound triggered this historian proved Lambert wrong. Like his claim the USS President was the naval flag ship when in fact it was the USS Constitution since 1810😂

[@martinidry6300]

@@TheIceman567 exarmydoc IS A HISTORIAN! What's his name? Yes, America most certainly WAS thoroughly defeated in that war. As happened in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq and the horrific farce that is Syria. The creation of the U.S.A. has been a freakish hybrid that is now collapsing in on itself. The true horror is that the rest of the West has copied America's model - with all the excrementary effluent that passes for its "culture" and socio-economic model. As for copying its armed forces, it's self evident that the over reliance on the new glamour of high technology has been a huge contributing factor in the decline of the West. The sooner we see you lot reduced to the inward looking backwater that nature intended for you to be, the better.

[@TheIceman567]

@@martinidry6300 actually it wasn’t. Emarmdoc doesn’t state that all. The USA gain things out of this war. It defeated the natives, gained land and got fishing rights in Canadian waters impressment ended as seen during the 100 days of Napoleon in 1815. You seem pretty upset. You also know Korea was a stalemate too and Britain too was involved in that and Afghanistan and Iraq. Btw Cambodia and Laos were US victories.Please learn about the war next time before you comment. You look like a moron.

[@skibbideeskitch9894]

@@TheIceman567 _President_ was under the command of Commodore Stephen Decatur, the senior US naval officer at sea (considering John Rodgers was firmly on dry ground by late mid-1814, and I don't think there were other USN Commodores at sea during this time) by the end of 1814. From her, Decatur commanded the New York squadron of 4 ships when they tried to breakout of the blockaded city in early 1815, making her the flagship of that squadron. _President_ was taken by _HMS Endymion_ and her squadron. That's surely why Professor Lambert and others have described her as such.

[@TheIceman567]

@@skibbideeskitch9894 that’s okay. The USA got two of Britain’s flag ships during the war as well. HMS Confiance and HMS Detroit. In fact that’s were you seem to forget.. 28 Apr 1814 capture of the Epervier 28 Jun 1814 sinking of the Reindeer 1 Sept 1814 sinking of the Avon 20 Feb 1815 capture of the Levant 20 Feb 1815 capture of the Cyane 20 Mar 1815 sinking of HMS Penguin Not counting privateers that were operating at sea even off the British coast. Like the USS Chasseur. 🤷‍♂️

[@Eddythebeast666]

Excellent!

[@Aubury]

An absorbing lecture, the matters of the 1812 with the United States, details and its place in world history in 1812, were masterly. Reflecting on today’s Royal Navy, with more admirals than ships, the overstretch on the white elephant class carriers. A more sober, middle sized power attitude, might serve better.

[@99IronDuke]

The QE class carriers are in no way any type of 'white elephant'.

[@tsims678]

So interesting

[@exarmydoc]

Lambert on Constitution/Guerriere: "Most of Constitution’s braces had been cut; the American ship now unintentionally bore up into the wind, exposing her stern to the enemy. Hull put his helm hard over to starboard and the ship slowly swung back before the wind, just as Dacres was closing to rake. Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 1432-1434). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition. " From Tyrone Martin: A Most Fortunate Ship, Revised Edition, US Naval Institute Press, pg 158-159: "Hull was where he wanted to be at about 5:00. He hauled down his jib and had had the main topsail shivering to slow down as he ranged up alongside.Reportedly at his command, "Now boys, hull her!" the first double shotted broadside crashed out at the Briton half a pistol shot distance to larboard...approximatly fifteen minutes later, the Briton's mizzenmast crashed over the starboard side; her main yard was shot from its slings...The return fire from the British frigate had been high. some of Constitution's bracs were slashed an her fore royal truck was shot away wth the halyards-one bearing one of the flags Hull had hoisted...The dragging wreckage, jammed as it was under his starboard quarter slowed the Briton, pulled his head o starboard, and allowed Constitution to begin drawing ahead. The British captain tried in vain to regain control of his ship's head. At the same time, Hull attempted to luff up across his bow and rake, 'but our braces being sho away and jib haulyards(sic) we could not effect it.' The British frigate, swinging rapidly to starbaord, crashed into Constitution's [larboard] quarter...snagging his bowsprit in the larboard mizzen shrouds...Hitting and recoiling as the American slid forward, before breaking clear astern the Briton's bowsprit wreaked havoc with Hull's gig in the stern davits...How long it took Hull to regain control or he situation...was not recorded...his enemies, busy with their own problems, stated merely that [Hull] took position on their larboard bow from whence he fired several brpadsodes ontp them..." "Satisfied tht the Britisn rigate was still not under control, Hull moved up to take a raking position ahead of her...instead of [passing clear ahead, the antagonists collide, Constitution taking her enemy's jib boom in her starboard mizzen shrouds The crash destroyed tha American's spanker gaff and boom and snapped off the starboard side of the crossjack yard as she unleashed two broadsides into his bow. The briton's flying jib boom and jib boom were carried away and his two ragged shots in reply killed to and woundedone at number 15 starboard [gun] in Hull's cabin and started a brief fire." There were attempts by both combatants to board, which were beaten back. Then, "Constitution'a forward motion exerted sufficient force to pull the ships apart." The force of Constitution's motion was transmitted to the Foremast, which fell, and then pulled the Mainmast down. Once it lost its mizzenmast, Guerriere was unmanageable and made no attempt to rake Constitution. The ships fouled twice as a result of Constitution raking Guerriere.

[@exarmydoc]

More on Constitution/Guerriere from Lambert: "On the afternoon of 19 August Hull sighted and pursued the 18-pounder frigate HMS Guerriere, Captain James Dacres. Broke had detached Guerriere, a lightly built, elderly decayed French prize, from the squadron to replace her masts."(actually, Guerriere was a newer ship than Constitution, having been launched in 1799(see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Guerriere_(1806)) while Constitution had been launched in 1797) Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 1413-1415). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition. from www.historynet.com/constitution-vs-guerriere-americas-coming-out-party.htm: "The lone frigate was the Guerrière, commanded by Captain James R. Dacres. It had gone with the squadron halfway across the Atlantic but then been detached and ordered to Halifax to replenish stores and refit." No evidence Guerriere was in the decayed condition described by Lambert. David Fitz Enz made the point in his book Eagle of the Sea, that no one made an issue of Guerriere's condition until after Guerriere lay smashed and sunk. Also from www.historynet.com/constitution-vs-guerriere-americas-coming-out-party.htm:: "On August 10 [Guerriere captured] an American merchant brig, the Betsey, bound for Boston from Naples, Italy, with a load of brandy...The Betsey’s master, William B. Orne, was taken aboard as a prisoner and his ship sent on to Halifax as a prize." And "The day after taking the Betsey, the Guerrière halted and boarded the merchant brig John Adams, bound for New York. Finding that the ship was sailing under a British license, Dacres told the brig’s captain he could go on his way, but not before he wrote an entry into the ship’s register: “Capt. Dacres, commander of his Britannic Majesty’s frigate Guerrière, of forty-four guns, presents his compliments to commodore Rodgers, of the United States frigate President, and will be very happy to meet him, or any other American frigate of equal force to the President, off Sandy Hook, for the purpose of having a few minutes tête-à-tête.” And "The Guerrière spotted the American ship almost simultaneously. On deck Dacres handed Orne his glass and asked if it was an American or French frigate. Orne said he thought American for sure, but Dacres replied that it “acted most too bold to be an American.” Dacres paused, then added, “The better he behaves, the more honor we shall gain by taking him,” even remarking to Orne that he would “be made for life” as the first British captain to capture an American frigate. " Dacres was a competent naval officer, retiring from the Royal Navy as a rear admiral(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Richard_Dacres_(Royal_Navy_officer,_born_1788)). According to what the Captain of the Guerriere, himself, said, Guerriere was not in the decrepit condition described by Lambert.

[@mkstg12345]

Fair fight?

[@rpm1796]

I am Highland. my clan family, after a long run, fleeing like dogs we were, for our very lives, then somehow, joined with them ''fn cun's'' and found our new nest, when we landed, at Quidi Vidi, on the Newfoundland Station, in 1790 with the Royal Navy. In 1815, we were granted, by the good King, for services rendered against the American states... new lands, 350 acres' 'New Annandale'' on Cape Breton Island, Nova Scots. Shannon baby!

[@exarmydoc]

Another distortion in Lambert's book: "Among the best known [privateers was] the General Armstrong, which measured over 300 tons and was heavily armed. She began her career in 1812 and was finally destroyed by a British squadron at Fayal in the Azores on 26 September 1814." Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 3872-3874). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition. From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Armstrong: "General Armstrong is most remembered for her involvement in the Battle of Fayal, under the captaincy of Samuel Chester Reid, from 26 to 27 September 1814. In the engagement, the British brig-sloop Carnation and several boats armed with cannon and carrying sailors and marines, attempted to cut out the General Armstrong. General Armstrong repulsed the attacks but Captain Reid felt he had no chance of escaping the Azores so he ordered the scuttling of General Armstrong after fighting off the Carnation for a final time on 27 September. The Americans made it to shore where the Portuguese authorities protected them. Casualties amounted to two killed and seven wounded for the United States; the British lost 36 men killed and 93 wounded. Two of their boats were sunk and two others were captured" After beating back an attack by an overwhelming British force, the crew of the General Armstrong scuttled their ship to prevent capture. The Royal Navy Squadron(ship of the line, frigate and brig sloop) did not destroy the General Armstrong. More to come.

[@exarmydoc]

One of the distortions in Lambert's book: "Although the war officially ended on Christmas Eve 1814, American privateers were still putting to sea in February 1815, unaware that events in Belgium had ended their careers." Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 7753-7754). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition. The war did not end until both belligerents ratified the treaty. The treaty was not ratified by the US until February of 1815. From avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/ghent.asp: "This Treaty when the same shall have been ratified on both sides without alteration by either of the contracting parties, and the Ratifications mutually exchanged, shall be binding on both parties, and the Ratifications shall be exchanged at Washington in the space of four months from this day or sooner if practicable." More to follow.

[@rdwengineer]

This guy typifies British hubris....sour grapes for getting beat by the Americans twice and needing them to bail them out of 2 world wars

[@caratacus6204]

America lost the War of 1812. The only US contribution to WW1 was to get the Germans to attack in 1918. The actual military contribution was only slight. Germany declared war on the US. It was happy to sit on the sidelines until attacked.

[@ravenmusic6392]

Nope, not at all. The guy is a very respected scholar on the subject and has written several books on it. The Americans suffered higher casualties in every single area of the war (army deaths, navy deaths, number of ships burned or captured) and failed in all three attempts to invade Canada which was the US army's largest action in the war. The conflict ended with unchallenged British control over the northeast of the USA and the capital smoking, while the USA controlled zero pieces of British territory when the peace treaty was signed. In terms of WW1, the Americans never exceeded 15% of the troops on the western front and performed incredibly badly in comparison to British, but especially French troops to the point where general Foch placed them directly under his command. The reality is America was just not a serious military power either in 1812 or 1914 and would have been cleaned up by ANY of the major European armies of the time. 1944/45 is a different story, obviously Americas industrial power and technology was miles ahead, but even so, D-day was 80% British, and most of the U-boats sunk were also by the British. I bet you think America has never lost a war

[@TheIceman567]

@@ravenmusic6392 Inccrrect, the USA control parts of Canada by the time the treat was signed in fact the USA along didn’t leave Fort Malden until July 1815 in the area of what is now southwest Ontario which the USA controlled after the defeat of the British in that area in 1813. As for WW1 what battkes sid the US perform badly, I’m dying to know this, since the US was the reason the war ended as fast as it did especially since the spring off yin 1918 which the Germans were hoping to beat back the western Allie’s until the USA showed up in numbers and force in the battlefield. Pushing the British and French nearly 30 miles to Paris. D-day was not 80% british the majority of forced that landed were American then a mix of British Canadians. America had never like say a war that is technically correct. Come on son, quit embarrassing yourself.

[@TheIceman567]

@@caratacus6204 actually they didn’t, the USA gained what it wanted from the war of 1812. WW1 the Americans were the reason for the war ending in Europe. Yeah it was why did the USA need to join the war in Europe? It had no reason to. It was a neutral country and the 39 ranked in terms of military by 1939, geez will you study.

[@ravenmusic6392]

@@TheIceman567 @TheIceman567 The Americans were a reason, not the reason beyond just being more infantry, they could have been troops from any country, it just sped up the inevitable, as after Germanys 100 days offensive failed, the allies had more troops, and the American entry did little more than speed up that process. The troops were pretty poor by allied standards in 1918 and if they were forced to face the Germans under their own command or without French support they would have been wiped out which is why they were almost immediately handed over to the French generals. It is absolutely not correct to say the USA has never lost a war. Vietnam is the obvious one but incredibly relevant, the Americans were defeated in the air, losing 1,700 fighters and 5,000 Helicopters, a ratio which didn't drop significantly, even just before the Paris peace accords. They lost a huge number of troops, both dead and especially Wounded and couldn't contunie operations at the same pace, that it a defeat. The very slightly incursions into Ontario are not in any way comparable to the massive parts of the USA the British occupied before the peace treaty, its almost nothing if you count actual population centres. What I said was that D-day was 70-80% British, meaning the Empire. The original commenter claimed the Americans were the main force, which is just false.

[@exarmydoc]

In the opinion of Lambert at www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/essays/british-perspective/, Lambert notes that the American frigates were superior in force to their British opponents. What he does not note is that British captures of US ships were the result of overwhelming force. Unlike the misrepresentation he tries to pass off as history, President was taken by a British squadron, not by HMS Endymion. The 14 gun Nautilus was taken by a squadron of a ship of the line and 4 frigates, the 16 gun Wasp was taken by the 74 gun Poitiers, the 16 gun Syren was taken by the 74 gun Medway, the 14 gun Vixen was taken by the 32 gun Southhampton, the second Vixen was unarmed when it was taken by HMS Belvidera, rated at 36 guns but mounting more than 40, the 14 gun Rattlesnake taken by the 58 gun Leander, Essex taken by Phoebe and Cherub after it was partially dismasted and unable to maneuver. Lambert also does not mention that prior to the War of 1812, the Royal Navy had a very low opinion of the US Navy and the quality of its ships. The American 44s were not regarded as effective warships. Contemporary British Naval opinion was that an American frigate could not survive a battle with a British frigate let alone win. That is why it was such a shock to the Royal Navy when Constitution and Guerriere went at it a a range of 25 yards and Guerriere ended up smashed and sinking.

[@FortunaFortesJuvat]

+exarmydoc Hmm, the US Navy could have used its own squadrons of 74's... oh wait, it didn't have any.

[@exarmydoc]

FortunaFortesJuvat The US Navy still defeated the mighty Royal Navy in 13 of the 15 battles the two navies fought.

[@FortunaFortesJuvat]

Which were all no consequence frigate engagements. The mighty USN was bottled up in harbours by British blockade, and the contest on the Great Lakes was settled by the 112-gun HMS St Lawrence, a fleet-in-being which kept the USN bottled up in Sacketts' for the duration.

[@exarmydoc]

FortunaFortesJuvat Nevertheless, the Royal Navy was relluctant to engage the US Navy unless it had overwhelming superiority. Even with superiority the Royal Navy had superior strength it was reluctant to engage the US Navy, as was evidenced by Commodore George Collier's reluctance to engage USS Constitution with a superior force.

[@exarmydoc]

FortunaFortesJuvat You Brit supervisors like to bring up what if scenariios, e.g. what if George Prevost had not been such an incompetent commander at Plattsburgh. Here's another one. What if the war continued further into 1815. The US had two first rate ships of the line under construction at Sackets Harbor. Had it been a longer duration, the US would have regained control of Lake Ontario.

[@UmHmm328]

As anyone knows. The British had nothing to do with the Atlantic Slave Trade, Colonialism, Imperialism, etc All American inventions.🤔

[@jamesmorse959]

Yes, the British actually controlled the slave trade and got very wealthy from it. However we outlawed the slave trade before most and used the Royal Navy to police the abolition. In contrast the US hung on to slavery much longer and even after the Civil War the former slaves in the southern states had no civil rights. The US is currently the biggest Imperialist nation on earth. This is becoming even worse under President Trump.

[@99IronDuke]

Slavery within Great Britain itself was illegal by the 1780's at latest. Britain banned the slave trade in 1807 and slavery was outlawed in the British Empire 1833.

[@exarmydoc]

With regard to the capture of USS President Between 7.40 and 7.50 President bore away from Endymion and ceased fire. At 7.58 she displayed a light in her rigging, the recognised night signal of surrender. Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 7176-7177). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition. This is based on William James account: “...the President, now evidently much shattered, replied with a discharge from one stern gun. In ten minutes the American frigate kept more away, firing but at intervals, and at fifty-eight minutes past seven ceased altogether and shewed(SIC) a light. Conceiving that the President had struck, the Endymion also ceased firing, and began to bend new sails, her present ones having been cut into ribands by the President's bar and chain shot; one of which had torn away twelve or fourteen cloths of her fore-sail, stripping it almost from the yard.” This is William James’ account quoted at this URL:www.1812privateers.org/NAVAL/president.html. More from Lambert: “Never one to miss an opportunity, Decatur kept under way, sliding past the near-stationary Endymion at 8.30, and resumed his course of east by north. Hope did not fire; his men were busy aloft and he believed the action was over. However, he had overestimated his enemy’s integrity. Decatur hoped to escape into the night under royal studding sails. Although it was quite dark when President started this bid for freedom, the clouds soon cleared and the stars revealed her to the pursuing Pomone, which had made up a considerable distance during the action. Having completed shifting sails, fitting a new main topsail, jib, fore topmast staysail and spanker, Endymion trimmed sails and bore up to close on the enemy at 8.52, just after the Pomone and Tenedos passed. Hope could see President heading east, under a press of sail, and at 9.05 observed one of the squadron run up on her larboard beam, and fire into her. President then shortened sail, luffed up, and hoisted the light in her rigging higher.” Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 7184-7191). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition. “As Pomone came into action Tenedos was closing fast, hastily shedding sail to avoid over-running the concluding scene. At 9.45 Hope hailed Hyde Parker to let him know that the enemy had surrendered, but he did not have a boat to take possession.” Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 7205-7207). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition. More from www.1812privateers.org/NAVAL/president.html: “We are, upon the whole, inclined to think that the Endymion was mistaken as to the hoisting of the light; especially, as the president, in the relative condition of the two ships aloft, had it in her power to escape from the Endymion, and, by persevering in her efforts, might even hope to escape from the remainder of the squadron.” And: “The deposition of the late schoolmaster of the President, Mr. Bowie, taken before the surrogate at Bermuda confirms this[that President struck after President had left Endymion behind and had come under fire fromHMS Pomone]: he says: ‘When the Endymion dropped astern, we were confident of escaping. Shortly after, discovered two ships coming up; (Pomone and Tenedos;) when Commodore Decatur ordered all hands below to take care of their bags. One of the ships commenced firing; Commodore Decatur called out, ‘We have surrendered,’ and gave this deponent the trumpet to hail, and say, they had surrendered. The Pomones's fire did damage to the rigging, but neither killed nor wounded any person. The President did not return the Pomone's fire, but hoisted a light in the mizen-rigging, as a sign of submission.’ Again: ‘When the two ships were coming up, a light was hoisted in the mizen-rigging of the President, as this deponent conceived at the time, as an ensign or flag, but, as he afterwards had reason to believe, as a sign that they had surrendered; for this deponent observed to the Commodore, that, as long as the light was hoisted, the ships would fir(sic): upon which the Commodore Decatur ordered it to be taken down.’ ” There are accounts of the battle other than William James’ account upon which Andrew Lambert bases his claim that, President surrendered to Endymion, noted in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_USS_President: There are other accounts of the President/[Endymion action other than Andrew Lambert's: Daughan, George C. (2011-10-04). 1812: The Navy's War (p. 395). Basic Books. Kindle Edition. Forester, C. S. (2012-05-28). The Age of Fighting Sail (Kindle Locations 4226-4236). eNet Press Inc.. Kindle Edition. Utt, Ronald (2012-12-03). Ships of Oak, Guns of Iron: The War of 1812 and the Forging of the American Navy (p. 458-463). Regnery Publishing. Kindle Edition. Toll, Ian W. (2008-03-17). Six Frigates: The Epic History of the Founding of the U.S. Navy (p. 438-439). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition. McCranie, Kevin D. (2011-10-01). Utmost Gallantry: The U.S. and Royal Navies at Sea in the War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 5367-5404). Naval Institute Press. Kindle Edition. Tucker, Spencer C. (2013-12-15). Stephen Decatur: A Life Most Bold and Daring (Library of Naval Biography) (Kindle Locations 3023-3124). Naval Institute Press. Kindle Edition. Adams, Henry (1999-09-28). The War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 7815-7890). Cooper Square Press. Kindle Edition. None of those accounts record that Decatur surrendered to Endymion. What all accounts agree upon, including Lambert’s account are the following: Endymion ceased firing; Endymion made no attempt to take possession of President(Lambert compares this to Isaac Hull and the Constitution moving off to make repairs before taking possession of Guerriere. Constitution was capable of moving. Endymion was not. President was capable of getting underway. Guerriere was not. President and Endymion lay in close proximity for more than a half hour before President got underway again; Endymion did not attempt to pursue President; Endymion did not attempt to prevent President from getting underway. More than an hour after President got under way, Captain Hope said he had not been able to take possession of President because he had no intact boats. What it all comes down to, again, that President struck to Endymion is Lambert’s opinion, not historical fact.

[@exarmydoc]

Here is something for Professor Lambert to explain: “[Constitution] now unintentionally bore up into the wind, exposing her stern to the enemy. Hull put his helm hard over to starboard and the ship slowly swung back before the wind, just as Dacres was closing to rake(Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 1432-1434). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition.)” According to other accounts: Daughan, George C. (2011-10-04). 1812: The Navy's War (pp. 76, 77, 77-78, 78, 79). Basic Books. Kindle Edition. Forester, C. S. (2012-05-28). The Age of Fighting Sail (Kindle Locations 971-974, 983-987, 993-994, 995-998). eNet Press Inc.. Kindle Edition. Cooper, James Fenimore (2014-03-25). The History of the Navy of the United States (Kindle Locations 7382-7383, 7386-7388, 7389-7401, 7403-7405). . Kindle Edition. Budiansky, Stephen (2011-01-18). Perilous Fight (Kindle Locations 2833-2836, 2837-2841, 2841-2847, 2849-2851, 2861-2863, 2881-2883). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. Utt, Ronald (2012-12-03). Ships of Oak, Guns of Iron: The War of 1812 and the Forging of the American Navy (p. 55, 56, 58, 59). Regnery Publishing. Kindle Edition. Toll, Ian W. (2008-03-17). Six Frigates: The Epic History of the Founding of the U.S. Navy (p. 341, 342, 342-343, 343, 343-344, 345, 346). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition. Tyrone Martin. A Most Fortunate Ship: a Narrative History of Old Ironsides revised edition: US Naval Institute Press. Annapolis MD, 1997: pg. 152-160 The loss of her mizzenmast had rendered Guerriere unmanageable. Guerriere's bowsprit caught in Constitution's mizzen rigging while Constitution was crossing Guerriere's bow and raking Guerriere.

[@exarmydoc]

Finally, in www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/essays/british-perspective/, Lambert calls the engagement between Shannon and Chesapeake "most brilliant single ship action ever fought". Things Lambert does not mention: Philip Broke had 6 years experience as captain of Shannon. When James Lawrence took command of Chesapeake, it was his first frigate command. Broke's crew had sailed together and trained together for many years. Chesapeake's crew had never sailed together. When Lawrence took command of Chesapeake, he had to recruit a new crew. They were experienced sailors but had never sailed together or trained together before Chesapeake sailed to engage Shannon. William James, discussing the defeat of Java by USS Constitution, notes that Java's crew had been on board together for 5 weeks. That was 5 weeks more time at sea as a crew than Chesapeake's had. James had based his opinion on the number of casualties Constitution took, injuries to its captain and the death of one of its Lieutenants. Shannon took more casualties taking Chesapeake than Guerriere took when that ship lost to Constitution. Shannon took more casualties in taking Shannon than Constitution took in capturing Guerriere, Java, Cyane and Levant. Philip Broke was so seriously injured that he never again commanded. Shannon's first Lieutenant was killed. Shannon's bosun lost his arm. Lambert does not apply James' Constitutio/Java "logic" to Chesapeake/Shannon. If he had, he would have to admit that this "most brilliant single ship action ever fought" would have ended differently if Chesapeake had been properly manned by a trained crew. Constitution remained in service and is still in service after the War of 1812. After the battle with Chesapeake, Shannon returned to England, was surveyed, found to be unfit for service, and then was laid up for about 15 years undergoing repairs. About two years after being put back in service, Shannon was again laid up, then converted to a receiving ship and renamed Saint Lawrence.

[@exarmydoc]

"Eddythebeast666 1 year ago Excellent! Anything but.

[@exarmydoc]

Another example of Andrew Lambert's poor scholarship. From www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/essays/british-perspective/ Among other things, Lambert notes that the Treaty of Ghent did not address the Orders in Council. If he were truly an expert on British Naval History he would know that the Orders in Council to which the US objected had been revoked on June 23, 1812. Britain actually gave in on the issue of the Orders in Council a couple of years prior to the negotiations at Ghent.

[@exarmydoc]

Andrew Lambert may have been awarded a medal by the Society for Nautical Research for "The Challenge: Britain against America in the Naval War of 1812. The accuracy of his scholarship is open to question. In his book Lambert wrote: "In addition the Navy had taken 34 American warships, and 278 privateers carrying 906 guns, manned by 8,974 men." Lambert, Andrew (2012-04-03). The Challenge: Britain Against America in the Naval War of 1812 (Kindle Locations 7731-7732). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition.He gives no list of names of the ships taken. The following information comes from Howard I Chapelle's the History of the American Sailing Navy, New York, Konecky and Konecky, 1949. The page numbers refer to the entries in the index of each individual ship, giving the procurement and final disposition of each ship. In 1812, the US Navy consisted of the following Vessels: Constitution(Pg. 536), United States(pg. 556, President(pg. 550), Constellation(pg. 536, Congress(pg. 536), Chesapeake(pg. 535), Essex(pg. 539), Adams(pg. 531), John Adams(pg, 5), Hornet(pg. 543), Wasp(pg. 557), Argus(pg. 533), Syren(pg. 555) Nautilus(pg. 547), Enterprise(pg. 538), Vixen(1st)(pg. 556), Viper(pg. 539 and pg. 556). Frigates New York(pg. 547), Boston(pg. 533) and General Greene(pg. 541) were laid up in the Washington Navy Yard, too rotten to be repairable. All three were burned when Captain Thomas Tingey burned the Washington Navy Yard when the British captured Washington. During the War of 1812, the US Navy added the following vessels, by capture, purchase or building: Alert(pg. 531), Alligator(pg. 531), Guerriere(pg. 542), Java(pg. 544, Independence(pg. 543), Washington(pg. 557), Framllin(pg. 540), Wasp(2nd)(pg. 557), Frolic(pg. 540), Erie(pg. 539), Ontario(pg. 548), Peacock(pg. 548), Epervier(pg. 539), Macedonian(pg. 546), Boxer(pg. 534), Vixen(2nd)(pg. 556), Rattlesnake(pg. 557), Flambeau(pg. 540), Torch(pg. 555), Spitfire(pg. 554), Spark(pg. 554), Cyane(pg. 536), Essex Junior(pg. 536), Louisiana(pg. 545), Caroling(pg. 534), Tom Bowline(pg. 555), Nonsuch(pg. 548) Dispatch(pg. 537), Prometheus (pg. 550), Roanoke (pg. 552). Of the US Navy vessels present at the start of the War of 1812, the Royal Navy captured President, Chesapeake, Essex, Wasp, Argus, Syren, Nautilus, Vixen(1st) and Viper(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_War_of_1812_Battles) Of the vessels added to the Navy after the outbreak of the War, the Royal Navy captured Frolic, Vixen(2nd), Essex Junior(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_War_of_1812_Battles) The Royal Navy did recapture HMS Frolic and HMS Levant. Neither vessel was ever commissioned in the US Navy. HMS Frolic was so damaged in its battle with the first USS Wasp it was not repairable(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Frolic_(1806)) USS Columbia and USS Argus(2nd) were burned at the Washington Navy yard to prevent capture but were never completed and never commissioned in the US Navy. USS Carolina was destroyed by shore battery fire during the campaign for New Orleans(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Carolina_(1812)) USS Adams was burned in the Penobscot to prevent its capture by the British((en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Adams_(1799)). The Royal Navy did capture a number of small vessels on the Great Lakes, USS Ohio, USS Somers, USS Julia, USS Growler, USS Tigress and USS Scorpion(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_War_of_1812_Battles) The Royal Navy did capture USS Eagle and another USS Growler on Lake Champlain. Both vessels were recaptured at the Battle of Lake Champlain(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Eagle_(1812), and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Growler_(1812_sloop) So, the Royal Navy captured 12 US Navy warships on the high seas during the War of 1812 and 6 small vessels on the Lakes. On the Lakes, between the Battle of Lake Erie and Lake Champlain, the Royal Navy lost 22 ships to the US Navy((en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Erie,en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plattsburgh), something Andrew Lambert does not mention. On the High Seas the Royal Navy lost Guerrierre, Frolic, Macedonian, Java, Peacock, Boxer, Reindeer, Avon, Epervier, Pictou, Cyane, Levant, and Penguin, 14 ships of which Levant was recaptured and returned to service in the Royal Navy(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_War_of_1812_Battles) The Royal Navy did capture 5 gunboats and 3 tenders on Lake Borgne en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Borgne What these figures add up to is the Royal Navy took 26 US Warships on the Lakes, on the High Seas and on Lake Borgne. The US Navy took 36 ships of the Royal Navy on the High Seas and on the Lakes. All the vessels captured by the US Navy were taken in Battle except Pictou and Alert. Of the vessels captured by the Royal Navy, only Chesapeake and Argus were taken in battle. The remainder, including President and Essex, were taken by overwhelming force.

[@augustusgloop6858]

Well I must say that is a very skewed list. The single ship actions by themselves give you a completely skewed version of the war, as I'm sure you are well aware. You also seem to be ignoring the US Revenue Marine (precursor to the Coast Guard), which in both the Quasi-War and War of 1812 came under military jurisdiction and served as warships. The USRC Eagle had more captures in the Quasi-War than any other American vessel. My list does not account for ships that were captured by the British, then recaptured by US forces, as this would be disingenuous. I only account for British captures that remained in British hands at war's end. Captured by Royal Navy forces (taken in ship to ship combat, boarding actions, or surrender): • Gunboat No. 5 (became HMS Ambush) • Gunboat No. 23 (became HMS Firebrand) • Gunboat No. 156 (became HMS Destruction) • Gunboat No. 162 (became HMS Harlequin) • Gunboat No. 163 (became HMS Eagle) - All captured in boarding actions on Lake Borgne • USRC Commodore Barry (Surrendered to HMS Maidstone and HMS Spartan, 1812) • USRC James Madison (Surrendered to HMS Barbadoes, 1812) • USRC Surveyor (Surrendered to HMS Narcissus, 1813) • USRC Eagle (Surrendered to HMS Narcissus and HMS Dispatch, 1814) • USS Nautilus (Surrendered to HMS Shannon and Squadron, 1812) • USS Vixen (Surrendered to HMS Southampton, 1812) • USS Tigress (Captured in boarding action on Lake Huron, 1814) • USS Scorpion (Captured in boarding action on Lake Huron, 1814) • USS Ohio (Captured in boarding action on Lake Erie, 1814) • USS Somers (Captured in boarding action on Lake Erie, 1814) • USS Alligator (Captured in boarding action at the Battle of Lake Borgne, 1814) • USS Wasp (Surrendered to HMS Poictiers, 1812) • USS Argus (Captured by HMS Pelican in ship to ship combat, 1813) • USS Rattlesnake (Surrendered to HMS Leander, 1814) • USS Syren (Surrendered to HMS Medway, 1814) • USS Viper (Surrendered to HMS Narcissus, 1813) • USS Frolic (Surrendered to HMS Orpheus, 1814) • USS Vixen (II) (Surrendered to HMS Belvidera, 1813) • USS President (Captured by HMS Endymion and squadron, ship to ship action, 1815) • USS Chesapeake (Captured by HMS Shannon in ship to ship combat, 1813) • USS Essex (Captured by HMS Phoebe, ship to ship combat, 1814) That's 26 USN warships captured (and retained) by Royal Navy forces on the seas and lakes. Not 18. But then let's expand further. US ships scuttled by their crews which otherwise would have been captured or destroyed by the Royal Navy: • USS Sea Horse (Scuttled before the Battle of Lake Borgne, 1814) • USS Tickler (Scuttled at the Battle of Lake Borgne, 1814) • USS Scorpion (Scuttled 1814, Joshua Barney’s flagship, floating battery). • USS Adams (Scuttled in Maine to prevent capture, 1814) Approx 17 gunboats of Joshua Barney’s flotilla scuttled in the Chesapeake (16 scuttled, 1 captured) - aside from the flagship USS Scorpion, these were all probably private vessels and therefore will not be counted. As you correctly mentioned the brand new 44-gun frigate USS Columbia and the 22-gun brig USS Argus were scuttled to prevent them falling into British hands, alongside the mothballed frigates USS New York, USS Boston and USS General Greene. All of these vessels were technically not in active service so will not be counted. British land forces also accounted for the loss of several more warships: • USS Chippeway (Burnt by British at Buffalo 1813) • USS Little Belt (Burnt by British at Buffalo 1813) • USS Trippe (Burnt by British at Buffalo 1813) • USS Carolina (Destroyed by heated shot, New Orleans, 1814) • USS Growler (Captured at the Battle of Fort Oswego, 1814) • x2 USN Gunboats (Identification unknown) - Captured in the occupation of St. Marys, Georgia. Furthermore, British amphibious forces inflicted huge economic damage to the US, some examples: • In April 1814 a small British force rowed six miles upriver and seized the town of Essex, Connecticut. They destroyed or carried away 27 merchant vessels and privateers, devastating the local economy. This was the US’s single biggest naval loss of the war and would remain its greatest naval loss until Pearl Harbor. • In August/September 1814 a British naval squadron forced the destruction of Fort Washington and seized the rich town of Alexandria. They captured 22 merchant vessels and vast amounts of loot. • In September 1814 during operations in what would later become Maine, British forces occupied the towns of Castine and Belfast, sacked the towns of Bangor and Hampden, and burnt 16 American vessels and carried away a further 10, along with numerous loot. • In January 1815 a British force destroyed Fort Peter and occupied the town of St Marys, capturing 2 USN gunboats and a further 12 merchant vessels. So in total, 26 USN warships captured by the Royal Navy directly. If we include total British military forces, including warships destroyed, captured or scuttled in the face of enemy power this figure rises to 37 US warships. This is excluding the vessels of Barney's Flotilla and the technically in-active warships in Washington. Add to this Andrew Lambert's figure of 298 privateers and 1400 merchantmen captured by the Royal Navy (British privateers from Nova Scotia and Bermuda captured a couple of hundred more). • The US did also not capture 22 British ships in the Battles of Lake Erie and Lake Champlain, no idea where you're getting that figure? They captured 10 ships overall in battles on the Lakes. 2 of these were later re-captured and burnt by the British. They also lost 4 of their own ships in boarding actions and 1 by capture and burning.

[@augustusgloop6858]

"The US Navy took 36 ships of the Royal Navy on the High Seas and on the Lakes. " - I disagree. Please provide a detailed account of these captures. And please be honest as I have tried to be, it is disingenuous to count as a "capture" a ship which was later recaptured by the opposing side. Only "captures" which were retained by that force at the war's end need count. I account for 24 British warships destroyed, captured (and retained) or scuttled (which would have otherwise been destroyed or captured) - in the entire war. This accounts for "ALL" U.S. military forces, Navy and Army included. I have even been generous in counting ships that you have missed such as HMS Magnet, which was scuttled on the Niagara River to prevent capture, and HMS Hermes, which grounded during the Siege of Fort Bowyer and was scuttled while under US land-based artillery fire.

[@augustusgloop6858]

I’ve also found evidence of more ships captured or destroyed. In addition to the list above: • USS Essex Junior (Captured by HMS Phoebe) • USS Sir Andrew Hammond (Captured by HMS Cherub) (David Porter “commissioned” four whalers into warships during his Pacific cruise at various points, all four were recaptured, but the above two were captured whilst serving in a military capacity) • Gunboat No. 121 - Captured by HMS Junon in boarding action, whilst aiding HMS Martin which had grounded in Delaware Bay • USS Asp (Captured and burnt by HMS Mohawk and HMS Contest, 1813) • USS President (Sloop) (Captured on Lake Champlain, 1814, became HMS Icicle) I’ve also found additional ships scuttled in the face of British forces. • Gunboat No. 137 • Gunboat No. 138 (Both part of the Chesapeake Bay Flotilla, scuttled at St. Leonard’s Creek due to a combination of damage from British warships and an inability to pass the British blockade) • A gunboat named “Scorpion” was also captured when the British occupied St Marys, the ship was allegedly a gift from the town to the US government. That takes the total up to 31 warships directly captured or destroyed by the Royal Navy. Approx 56 warships if we include ships scuttled in the face of enemy power, and we include the not yet launched vessels at the Washington Naval Yard and the Auxiliary vessels of Barney’s Flotilla. If we include ships destroyed by the British Army we have a total of 62 US warships destroyed, captured or scuttled.

[@vicwa5383]

The irony of when banned Wikipedia users call out others for poor bevahior. 😏 I think Coppit just loves bald British men.