2013 Brandon Sanderson Lecture 15 - Q&A: Fantasy Books (By Tradition) You Should Read Pt 2 (4/6)

[@johnytopinka]

2:35 Heh, not the only thing Goodkind's stealing from.

[@edmondliamson]

This is a good little list. Here are a few more that weren't listed; Pat Rothfuss, Carol Berg, Robin Hobb, Mark Lawrence, L.M. Bujold, P.V. Brett, Ellen Kushner, Scott Lynch, Scott Bakker, Brian Jacques... I could go on but a few of these would be on my must read list.

[@WolvesRun]

Terry Goodkind also draws from the long and rich tradition of Crank Economics.

[@sirbutthurt2937]

+Michael Z. What's that?

[@SirJerric]

To add to the Children's Fantasy List, I enjoy the books of Diana Wynne Jones. Some elements of world-crossing, but lots do stay secondary world. Very common to have child heroes.

[@TheDbzgtaf]

Wow. I don't know most of these authors.

[@Oaktales64]

8 years ago- if anyone is still around where would Brian Jacques’ Redwall series go?

[@litup1090]

Happy to say I got to fist-bump this guy at Dragoncon 2016. Wonderful author and amazing lecturer!

[@RFazor]

Haven't read BS yet. Now I will.

[@benjaminmolina3456]

What is the book he recommends about hunting a dragon but with real life limitations?

[@Vofzolne]

Is it weird that I hate long unending paragraphs and lengthy description - but my favorite author is Hobb?

[@vincentn6963]

I realized I have to read a lot more if I want to ever be an author!

[@RFazor]

Good rule

[@evertmaree]

wtf! this guy is a genuis

[@frankmarleriii]

As for heroic, another good one would be Fritz Leiber.

[@youbaayoub8162]

hello everyone ! can i find anybody here can write a sci-fi books list that has been translate to arabic if it's possible . i will be grateful

[@devinreese1109]

ATTENTION BRANDON SANDERSON! CORRECTION: Dragonlance was published by TSR in conjunction with game modules, BUT Weiss has stated in interview that the campaign wasnt a rewritten d and d campaign. That it was just her and tracy's story. So please correct this in lectures as an FYI thanks. Will reference its a KZbin interview if you need. Thanks Brandon. Thats actually an urban myth.

[@Silverjerk]

It's pretty common knowledge that the Dragonlance stories started because of a discussion on the way to a job interview at TSR, and was eventually fleshed out through a D&D campaign, so this hyperbolic "correction" nonsense is just that, nonsense. The lecture needs no correction, since it is technically accurate. The story has seen so many "corrections" over the years, but both Weis and Hickman have stuck pretty closely to the original story; they discussed a world familiar to the Dragonlance series, and eventually DID flesh it out through D&D campaigns.

[@devinreese1109]

@@Silverjerk No. Wiess has stated that hickman and his wife came up with the story on the way to tsr. Then, they asked hickman to come up with something, so they hired a design team to do it. Weiss got in on it and they tried to hire some well know writer to write it. But they didnt, so weiss and hickman got together and she said they were the ones to tell the story. So, after being familiar with the characters from the design team, for a while they sat down one weekend and the story just poured out of them,. This is all quoting weiss. Now, if you think she and he based it on a roleplay, She said No in this interview that that is an urban myth. So dont correct me until youve got your facts straight that this is what shes said they did it like. Now if shes lying, or joking, then thats a different story, but dont call it "hyperbolic correction." She stated they did NOT write it from a D and D campaing that she and tracy came up with it \, themselves, coauthoring, one weekend after the design team has created the world and all the characters. The d and d campaign was fleshed out modules that were issued as part of the d and d game, that were also in dragonlance world. These were issued coequal with the novels, but are different, but coem from same design team. Weiss and Hickman just decided to do the books themselves---weiss was book editor, and they DID, because they couldnt find/werent satisified with getting a well known author. But it wasnt a written down d and d campaing, it came from their heads that weekend they wrote, and found it wrote itself. This is what she (weiss) says. K?

[@Silverjerk]

@@devinreese1109 Tracy didn't write the books, he was working on the game while Weiss was doing the writing and sending him the manuscript for notes. They already HAD a writer on staff and fired him (letting him keep his advance) after Weiss decided to take on the project on her own. It did not happen over a weekend. The original author had 6 months to complete the books, and as he had already used 3 months of the timeline, Weiss had 3 months to finish the project. And they have both stated, many times, they played D&D using the characters from the books in order to inspire and flesh out ideas. This has been stated by both on NUMEROUS occasions. What she's stating is an urban myth is the idea that the entire world was FIRST a D&D campaign that eventually became the content of the books (like the Malazan novels, for instance). This is why I said your comment was hyperbolic, because it was. You're asking Brandon Sanderson to correct his lectures when not even your information is accurate. Try again.

[@devinreese1109]

@@Silverjerk Just going by this interview with Weiss. She specifically addresses the roleplaying origin question at 4:13. But she talks about other stuff too. It wasnt the impression that the story had a roleplaying origin that she gives here. K? Now, if its wrong its wrong, no one needs to "correct" anything or throw any mud. I was just going on this and maybe a couple of other things. But it was specifically asked here.This topic isnt the center of my life, either. But I will say that I do seem to remember somewhere her saying they got together one weekend and it just poured out of them, the two of them. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZCTe4emmcdnrNk

[@Silverjerk]

Devin Reese I’ve literally sat in the same room as the woman as she explained the entire process in great detail. And remember this was the early 80’s, going on nearly 40 years ago now, so it’s not surprising for her story to differ slightly from time to time. I’m a writer myself, and once wrote with a partner, and after just 18 years since that project started and I couldn’t give an exact recounting of those writing sessions or everything we did. It’s just human nature to have imperfect memory. And I apologize if I came off harshly, you were typing a direct message to Brandon Sanderson in all caps demanding he change his lecture over what is ostensibly a minuscule detail and not really the point in the lecture. It came off as a little pretentious and that’s what I was responding to.

[@ChrisEnnen]

Steampunk hasn't broken out? Did he see the latest Sherlock Holmes movies? Totally steampunk.

[@AbsolemLNG]

Chris Ennen Yeah the new Sherlock Holmes movies didn't exactly have the most brilliant reception ever, though. There's no steampunk Lord of the Rings, or steampunk Star Wars. Hasn't quite broken out yet. :) Hopefully soon. I love steampunk.

[@evertmaree]

modern goblin God of fantasy

[@JeansiByxan]

Making a list of authors you "should read" is a surefire way to become an unoriginal writer. For crying out loud, why don't modern authors ever recommend a classic? Even there there's plenty fantasy to choose from, whereas here the oldest book mentioned is A Princess of Mars, which was so fast-paced it barely fleshed out a story, whereas Tarzan is truly a classic. Why do I get the feeling author's are always plugging their author-friends? It's just a feeling I have, but you can't help but wonder sometimes.

[@alexcross5]

In the context of world literature, fantasy as we know it is still relatively young. There are numerous works of classic literature from the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th century. Fantasy, however, only gained real popularity after TLOTR You have authors like Peake and Eddison that came before Tolkien, but Tolkien is the main progenitor of modern fantasy. There is pre-tolkien fantasy and there is post-tolkien fantasy, and it's pretty easy to notice the difference between the two. So it makes sense that a lot of the books Sanderson is recommending are books published after 1950. Authors like Donaldson, Martin, Williams, Moorcock, Jordan, Hobb, Erikson, Pratchett, Abercrombie, Cook, Le Guin, Zelazny, Rawn, Vance, Leiber, Bakker, and Rothfuss are very important writers that need to be read to fully understand modern fantasy. When people are writing books on fantasy literature 200 years from now (although that is contigent on whether academics will ever embrace true fantasy as a legitimate form of literature), these are the authors that academics will point to as being some of the most influential and important novelists in the history of the genre. Of course the fantasy novelists from the pre-Tolkien era need to be read, but the great authors of modern fantasy are just as important. I understand your issues with "should read" lists, but I think almost every writer will agree that there are books you need to read if you ever hope to contribute anything to the world of literature. I think John Gardner said that literature is like a conversation, and if you want to contribute to that conversation, you need to be familiar with what has already been said. It would be a little premature to try to write a fantasy novel without being at least somewhat familiar with the authors that came before you.

[@JeansiByxan]

Thank you for your reply, Alex. I agree there are a few you need to read, but I think that fantasy-writers tend to inflate those lists to an absurd degree. Also, we often assume that the bestsellers of today will be the classics tomorrow. I'm not at all sure that this is always proves to be the case. Certainly they stand a better chance, but a lot of the old bestsellers aren't necessarily that widely read today. How many people read Ben-Hur for instance? or Tom Clancy's older novels? That being said, I do think that the more original writers are the ones that will live on, such as Erikson, Martin, Pratchett, Hobb, Vance, (probably Sanderson as well) etc. although I don't agree with your list fully. Nonetheless, Eddison (perhaps my favorite of the older writers) had a flair for language that is still without match today, and there are some of the 19th century novels that plenty of people could learn from (I wonder if Erikson has read Dickens much or if they're just both geniuses?). My point is that people assume that the more (as in quantity) you have read, the better you will be as a writer, which simply isn't the case. Not even Tolkien was a prolific reader of fiction. And Borges said that reading widely was no guarantee against writing badly (or something like that). But they had an imagination like few, which I think is too underestimated, at least in writing classes, as if you could simply rewrite some basic ideas and that will be enough for writing a true classic. I notice I'm ranting now, but its not because I have a problem with many of today's writers (which I rarely read to be honest). I love Erikson, and Martin has of course changed the face of fantasy forever (even though I prefer Erikson), but I worry sometimes that fantasy might become a parody of itself unless people let go of some old tropes, such as the "chosen one" and other ideas that fantasy has moved so far past that I'm baffled people continue to guzzle them down. Erikson said as much in an interview. Alright, I'm gonna go read Erikson now. Thank you for your thoughts.

[@alexcross5]

Erikson received his MFA in literature so I'd assume he's read Dickens. As far as fantasy needing to jettison some of the old tropes, I think every author I mentioned did that in some way. Glenn Cook was one of the first epic fantasy writers to bring his stories down to the gutter and tell a much grittier and morally ambiguous story. Donaldson also led the way for immoral characters, and his books also contain a psychological depth that a lot of the tolkien-clones didn't have. Robin Hobb took some of the cliched fantasy tropes like orphan boys and bastards elevated that type of story through brilliant and deep characterization and simple yet emotive writing. Rothfuss looked at the hero's story from a different angle than a lot of fantasy writers. He is telling the story of the tragic rise and fall of the hero , and you start out the story knowing that Kvothe has already fell from glory, making Rothfuss's work more of a somber meditation on heroism and loneliness than a conventional story that builds up the myth of the hero and ends with him saving the day. Abercrombie built on the backs of Cook and Martin and gave us a darker, morbidly funnier, grittier, and more amoral fantasy than we'd really seen before. All of the authors did something new, and all of the authors elevate some of the tropes through their craftsmanship and skill. I think modern fantasy is in a good place. Sorry for rambling too. I'm going to go read some Hobb now.

[@JeansiByxan]

Not even sure most of these authors still qualify as "new" even though this can be a matter of definitions. Didn't Cook publish the Black company in the 80's? Perhaps I dislike the heavy elements of magic that feature in so much of today's bestsellers. It almost approaches to a kind of "Marvelization" of fantasy where the focus becomes inextricably linked to the hero's powers as a means of characterization. To me it becomes distracting. I find Sanderson hard to read in this respect, not that he's a "bad" author, it's just a matter of personal taste. I do however think this can prevent a lot of people from discovering fantasy in their later years, which is a shame (it prevented me for years tbh). If you're a reader who's used to characters who are bound by the same laws and inhibitions that all humans share (like in a historical novel) the element of magic can often feel like a "cheat" to them, and that's not a defect on their part. To them it in all honesty relieves and removes a great deal of the tension one is used to from reading stories that deal with "planet earth", to put it crassly. They feel (and I do as well) that it is hard to relate to someone who can summon fire from their fingertips at a whim, no matter how well-drawn the character might be. Erikson's magic works on another level, because he has the characters divided into a caste-like system that mirrors much of our own political conditions. Fantasy is far from being in a bad place, but it remains to be seen if it will expand into yet more Marvelesque territory, or perhaps focus on more subtle storytelling. Happy reading!

[@alexcross5]

I see what you're saying, but as someone who finds magic systems interesting, the use of magic in fantasy doesn't bother me that much. Still, the fantasy I love always prioritizes character over magic. In The Name of the Wind, magic is very present in the story, but the novel's main focus is Kvothe's journey and development. Same with Hobb's works. But I do enjoy when magic only plays a small part in the story. There is magic in Abercrombie's work, but most of his characters don't possess the ability to use it and instead have to rely on their wit and physical abilities to survive. Martin's work is like this, too. So is KJ Parker's, Guy Gavriel Kay's, and Mark Lawrence's (to an extent). There are also many fantasy novels/series that are moving away from the traditional medieval-esque setting. Kay's works take place in a myriad of locations, ranging from ancient China to Byzantium to 16th century Spain. Ken Liu writes fantasy in a world inspired by ancient China. Sean Russell did something similar with his Initiate Brother Duology. Peter V. Brett and R Scott Bakker set their novels in a middle eastern style landscape and culture. Marlon James, the Booker Prize winning author of A Brief History of Seven Killings, is currently working on a trilogy of high fantasy novels inspired by African myth and folklore. So not only is a literary fiction writer jumping the fence and choosing to write in a genre that has been largely ghettoized by mainstream critics, but he also is writing a series that I predict will be very different than a lot of other fantasy. I'm also very curious to see how fantasy evolves over the next few decades. It seems to me that many of the boundaries are being transgressed and people are beginning to treat fantasy more seriously, both in regards to novels and film/television. People are realizing that stories set in alternate worlds can still feature well developed characters and interesting ideas. I think that over the next few decades we'll see more authors from traditional lit fic backgrounds start dipping their toes in various genres and telling new and interesting stories. (Junot Diaz has tossed around the idea of writing a fantasy novel/series for a while now). Hopefully some of the established fantasy novelists I've already mentioned will also get the recognition they deserve by the literary establishment. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'd also like to say how much I've enjoyed our discussion on this topic. It's nice to have a civilized conversation on KZbin. Many of my other experiences have not been so favorable.

[@evertmaree]

ok quentin tarrintino just for books and fat