244. The Meaning of Games & Flow

[@uncle0eric]

This channel is so good. I teach a digital ethics class and cover ethics and gaming as one of the topics. I thunk I'll include a link to this video next time I teach it.

[@PetersonSilva]

Amazing episode as always!

[@TheGemsbok]

Like films, most modern games give us holistic audio-visual experiences which are engineered in every detail to provide us with particular artistic impressions. And yet, like sports, most modern games provide us with extrinsic motivational structures, feedback mechanisms, competition, skill attainment, problem solving, variability, and/or social interaction. This is what gives them their odd positioning in the psychological landscape. They're film-sports. This dual identity has led some people to approach all modern games like sports, and others to approach all modern games like films. To my mind, both are slightly misguided approaches which are prevalent primarily because of the nascence of the medium's flourishing (as well as the heavier lean toward the sport side of things that was present in the design of the rudimentary games which were popular across the foregoing millennia). Games comprise a unique medium, and we will need new analytical tools to understand gameplay and interactivity as the artistic attributes they sometimes are. You'll notice that most attempts at 'gamification,' most attempts to put menial tasks into a flow state, draw entirely on the sport-like half of gaming. To me, this is why such attempts come across as dead and soulless. The best sports are much more than just a scoring system, and the best games are much more than just sports. Also, something tells me that, if you haven't already watched it, you would probably enjoy my video on Factorio quite a bit. It aims to surface some thinly buried meanings of the game.

[@bthomson]

Thanks for video recommendations. 🙏

[@ethan-loves]

Beautifully fascinating. I noticed halfway in that your style of presenting was almost putting me in a flow state - introducing new ideas at just about the same rate I could process them. Felt good! Though maybe it impeded deeper engagement with the subject 🤔

[@THUNKShow]

Wow thank you! I always struggle to find a happy medium between "this is boring, everyone understands this" and "nobody is going to be able to follow my moon logic here."

[@bthomson]

Teaching well is an art! 🎮🎨

[@johnhershberg5915]

I really wish you had followed up on the monopoly example! What's the conclusion?? Is Georgian the right way? Why did we forget about that ruleset?

[@zsdCKanVOIJANSO]

snake will eventually wrap back around

[@theuglyhat8718]

Many good points, but i would like to challenge the notion that flow is a purely individual experience. Sure, most of the time it definetly happens that way, but i would also like to point out the alternative experience of cooperative flow. When you work together with others as a well oiled machine to solve a common task. Where coordination and communication are neccessary steps in the completion of the task, and where progress only continues through the involvement of everyone involved. Where your own ego vanishes in the pursuit of that common goal. Couldn't that alse be considered a form of flow?

[@THUNKShow]

Absolutely - group/team flow is a distinct phenomenon with its own body of research. I'd posit that the phenomenological experience of team flow is still pretty isolating - you don't really have any awareness of your buddy Alice as a unique individual with her own values & desires when you're rowing a boat together, she just becomes an extension of the activity (until she decides to stop rowing, per episode 243!)

[@somedude6161]

@@THUNKShow I used to do martial arts where we would have two person katas. After a lot of practice and training, and if the kata is long enough, you can easily get into a flow where you are hyper aware both yourself and your partner. In this type of flow, the controlling aspect of your consciousness basically takes a step back and simply watches what is happening and only steps in well something goes awry. I would imagine that this would be the same in stage combat or some forms of dance. Now that I think of it, jazz improvisation would be a great example of group flow!

[@imaturtle7938]

@@THUNKShow Sex might be a good example of a shared flow state that isn't isolating. If you have a compatible partner and you can become unselfconscious then the resulting flow state feels anything but isolating.

[@Ephemeridian]

Love the idea of the state of flow saying something in itself and wholeheartedly agree with the recommendation to examine what you consume (not only what it's saying, but what the goals of the creators may be), regardless of what state it puts you in. That's been something that's important to me for a good while now and I think that more people doing that will have positive impacts both on media and society. Related to comments at 7:18, I'm very curious _when_ people do their critical thinking about the media they consume; for me, unless the media is *extremely loud* about it (and even then, usually only if I strongly disagree), those questions come after the experience. As an example, I'm just as unlikely to analyze something like Papers Please while I'm playing it, because doing that distances me from the emotions the game is trying to elicit as a part of what it's saying. The result of that is that I tend not to see flow as a way for a developer to mitigate criticism/prevent questions, since it wouldn't be affecting me during the time I'm typically forming them. This video now has me wondering if this approach is uncommon? I'm also a bit critical of certain flow definitions, but that's much more of a critique of Kotler needlessly muddying the waters by expanding their definition to effectively mean "any time you aren't fully present and it feels good" via removal of effort/mastery from the definition, "micro flow", citing a nature walk as flow, etc. (Note: the more I look into him, the more negative my view becomes, but that's because there's a bunch of indicators that he falls into that "new agey self help book authors" category, mentioned in #56, that I strongly dislike.) The bit @ 12:00 regarding social media using flow is what started this line of thought, as I'd never heard anyone describe scrolling social media as high effort -- so I'm assuming since Kotler is cited, you're working with influences from their definition. (Also, to be clear, the point _around_ this you're making/implying that social media is taking techniques from games [for dubious purposes] is still spot on -- it's just inducing flow is far from the only technique used by games to keep attention/distract!)

[@threethrushes]

Flow theory has been incredibly useful. I've purposefully introduced more opportunities for flow in my daily life through doing sport, riding a motorbike, having a job which sometimes puts me into flow. Reflecting on some of my unhappiest times in my life, I realised that I didn't have enough activities in which I was in flow. Many ordinary things can put us into flow: indeed, isn't that what intercourse is - a flow state which leads to a peak?

[@CamilaEspia]

Apply this to toys. Apply this in particular to anthropomorphic toys with intended personalities.

[@bthomson]

Hope your puppy is good? One of my go to lessons concerns the difference in gaming between Mexicans and Americans. Americans given a chance to win will not work together but fight. Mexicans figured out almost immediately that prizes could be won for all if they worked together! Sorry but this does not surprise me!

[@Xob_Driesestig]

Thanks for telling the story of monopoly. The no strings attached 200 dollars is also part of Georgist philosophy. They (we) believe that by taxing the land value (the value of the location/tile) we have enough money to give everyone a basic income (called a citizens dividend). If you're looking for a game that does for FPS what undertale does for RPG's, I recommend (spoilers) Spec Ops: the Line. I think you *can* also get into a 'critical thinking' flow, but only for a part of it. So if I'm looking for e.g. gender bias in my school administration and I'm pouring over a lot of paperwork, I can get into a flow when e.g. tallying examples. This is not a holistic type of critical thinking since I first have to direct my mind towards one specific analysis, but it suggests that flow states *can* be used for the process of critical examination.

[@kristianyotov5202]

Great video but you've made a mistake, flow stake can be achieved doingnothing (aka meditation)

[@Theraot]

I believe that there is people who want and people who don't want the extrinsic incentives (high scores, achievements, and similar), and for game having such extrinsic incentives having them can be a way to broaden the audience. And of course, a game can have those extrinsic incentives without the intrinsic (mastery, exploration, self determination, and so on), which I believe we can agree makes for bad games. The kind that is designed to keep you coming back, but you don't really enjoy it. Good flow is on the intrinsic incentives. The whole point is for you to enjoy doing the thing the game wants you to do (instead of you doing it to gain some reward). On the other hand, gamification goes mainly for the extrinsic incentives. It is a shame that people don't notice that all games teach something. Even if only what they teach is how to play them, and even if what they teach is not something we wanted to learn. It is a double shame that when people try to design educational games, the first approach is often the gamification route, when setting up a simulation where people can explore and experiment safely is much better. It is a triple shame that without the extrinsic means, it hard to demonstrate any learning did happen. This whole argument is derivative of the first half of the Dragon Speech by Chris Crawford. It has been 31 years of little progress in this regard. Here is some gamification for you: You get a meaningless internet point if you know who called developers who don't put microtransactions in their games "fucking idiots". It is worse than that, some publishers would same studios that put the wellbeing of the developers first. We have culture of crunch. And, yes, we see similar things in other creative industries. You don't see a game developers strike, or a visual effects artists strike, because unions has been demonized. But you know the strike you do see. In fact, about the second half of the Dragon Speech, AI is what would address the Dragon. Chris Crawford complained that games are about things, not about people, and their relationships or feelings. He wanted the teaching potential of video games to be put as a tool for people to develop social skills. And to be honest, there has been progress on that. Not only games such as the SIMs, but also actually social games. But the idea of using generative AI and large language models for NPCs is around, and proof of concept already exists. We might have injured the Crawford's Dragon (or not), yet it is not dead (if you don't know what I'm saying, go watch the Dragon Speech).

[@DJPhilTBCollins]

If you count that the runtime starts at zero then this video lasts 13:37. That can't be an accident. ;)

[@anakimluke]

May I request you use a Newton pic the next time you need a dog image on screen? :P

[@o.r.1988]

Meditation is actually a very intense kind of activity and you can experience flow in it. Doing nothing - if you are totally focused and immersed in it - channels you into flow just as well... Methinks you should rework this part of your video, if possible - it is so much better if it is correct.

[@teteuz.s]

It's curious that the whole flow state talk emerged on English speaking countries where capitalism is at its full force

[@THUNKShow]

I've read some commentary that Csikszentmihalyi explicitly formulated Flow as an individualistic solution to the problem of worker alienation, as an alternative to Marxist approaches. It's *wild.*

[@Loviare]

Never heard about the history of Monopoly, fascinating :o It astounds me time and time again how content of such a high quality consistently only gets so few views.

[@bthomson]

Yes but we are the cream of the crop!