3-notes-per-string VS. The CAGED System - Mythbusting with Levi Clay (Vlog #8)

/ leviclay
www.martinmillerguitar.com
Improvisation Masterclass:
jamtrackcentral.com/store/pac...
Discussing the advantages, disadvantages and intricacies of the 3-note-per-string and CAGED-systems for fretboard visualization

[@kenncma5317]

After doing the reasearch I decided to learn using the caged system. So far it has tought me to break down the neck like a puzzle, connect the shapes and created a pathway for me to play up and down the neck with ease. I see my roots for major or minor and can see the 4th and 7th. I am working on the other degress to be able to play in modes if I so desire. Now I play with song on the radio and backing tracks to develop my ear trainning. I have only been playing two years. I am happy with my progress and it continues to grow. I haven't fell into any caged's, but just the inverse, been set free on the fretboard. Thank you Martin Miller!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@ianbarnes1406]

Great video guys. What Martin says at 19.25 sums up brilliantly the main problem with 3 NPS playing

[@chrispicha]

Great video! As someone who learned 3Nps long ago and is finally coming around to CAGED it’s a super valuable discussion to witness. Thx guys.

[@jsauce666]

Great conversation from 2 amazing players. Thanks.

[@8triagrammer]

Martin's methodology is basically "don't be lazy"

[@johnmaloney1681]

@Martin Miller - I think I've drawn essentially the same conclusions as you, only differing in the explanation and with one particular knock against CAGED (edit: at least in the way i was taught). I think that CAGED is a great as a fundamental system for learning 5 different ways to make the same chord (and it's arpeggio), but I would stop with all things CAGED from there and transition to triads. I practiced CAGED scales in all positions at MI/GIT in the mid 90's as this was standard curriculum, but have concluded after many years though, that this is largely a waste of time and that a much better "next step" after the 5 chord shapes is to learn all 12 triad shapes so that one really learns those interval notes in all inversions (same reasons as you state). Simply adding additional intervals (7ths, 6ths, etc) logically follow and is easily digestible. On top of this, understanding that all chords are stacked triads is a powerful revelation; that a maj triad is a M3 w/ a m3 stacked on top, and that a minor triad is the exact opposite; a m3 w/ a M3 stacked on top. This means that it is NOT ONLY the interval itself that contributes to the harmonic character/flavor, but also the order/position of those stacked intervals. This leads to revelations such as - "a 7th chord is simply 2 stacked triads: 1-3-5 and 3-5-7". This may seem both trivial and not particularly helpful until you understand that for any dom7 chord, the "upper triad" (3-5-7) is diminished - so you can now play a diminished scale from the 3, 5, or 7, and get all the tasty notes!

[@MartinMillerGuitar]

We're not disagreeing. What you're describing is very similar to my approach. Check out my video with Tom Quayle on this subject and I briefly go into the method I lay out in my Improvisation Masterclass. It's basically unifying chords, triads, arpeggios, pentatonics, scales and any combination of functions to the same family. Great post!

[@posh7688]

John Maloney e

[@Ant_FGC]

I'm glad that I came down to the comments and found a system that I had not yet thought about implementing. Awesome post dude.

[@Chris-MusicTheoryAndFretboard]

You might as well skip CAGED altogether though. I think there is a good reason why CAGED doesn't exist for any other multi-string instrument. And before CAGED ever existed, the guitarists in the 70s, 60s, 50s, 40s produced amazing music.

[@ville_salojarvis_lakewood_exp]

All of the things you mentioned can be found in CAGED. If you add 3nps and practising on one string horizontally as well as playing scales and arpeggios diagonally you have it covered pretty well. But as you said you must break the scales, intervals and chords into smaller increments and study their intervallic structures. No method mentioned here is a "be all - end all" solution by itself.

[@SteveGilson]

Glad to see a sensible pragmatic view of different scale systems.

[@KevinRussellSpaceSimSTEAMphony]

Great 'informed' conversation Martin and Levi. After 40 yrs of guitar (next year), I was happy to learn the GAGED system in 1985 as I recall. I came to this video after my 1st 3NPS video moments ago. Loved realizing its massive utility. Yours is the 2nd video and now I know this is a thing on the Internet. Seams to me it splits along the intervalic thinking vs pattern shape thinking , sort of right hemisphere and left hemisphere dominance/preference. However, since we're all switch between both hemispheres, why would camps want to choose, unless they're more interested in creating an ideology to support their dogma. Choosing in either case, ultimately doesn't extend learning, fun and expression.

[@johnnyx9892]

CAGED was the thing that really opened up the fretboard for me. From there I learned how to connect the scales horizontally, vertically, diagonally. Then the triads and inversions that were right there. So when I play a chord, I already have lots of options to stay where I am or move in any direction. I can look up or down the fretboard and not feel lost. I have explored 3NPS and I can see the value. Just a different way to look at things. I am just a hobby player. No formal training.

[@iplaylespauls23]

Cool, I learned 3nps early on under the influence of aforemention teachers who shall not be named, and my fretboard knowledge is pretty good, but thanks to this I can see where caged could help fill some holes that I'm seeing especially I start working on improv over more complex changes. Thanks!

[@SurfingSerpent]

Hey Martin, both systems are very useful. I have a useful addition that you might find useful. You can see each string as its own instrument, and play all the notes of a triad on one string, which is exclusively horizontal movement. If you put on a static chord that plays over and over, and focus on phrasing on one string, it's very powerful to explore only one string and play all the notes that are available. The "box" is the string. Then you can move up to the next string and do the same thing, and people will notice the overlap of notes, but still view the next string as its "own instrument". This approach has a maximum focus on the horizontal movement of the fretboard, and the triads put a great amount of distance between each note so they all feel distinct. Besides massively improving note and interval visualization, it's a great challenge to see how well you can phrase on one string and keep it interesting.

[@joshoptical]

I don’t play in CAGED, I think in CAGED- well put.

[@johnschoppmusic]

Nice work guys! Learning the caged system right now as a beginner.

[@NinoHelfrich]

As someone who's familiar with both Levi's and Martin's instructional material I can only advice everyone to learn CAGED properly and look into their stuff. I've spend 100+ hours on the exercises of the Improvisation Masterclass Vol1 by the time being and it's been nothing but helpfull!

[@pnowak2]

same for me, gives you abilityi not to learn finger shapes anymore, opens ways to create any scale on spot as you play, when you see all intervals in runtime.

[@rossridesmtb7497]

Such a useful conversation!!!

[@Riffs4U]

I like what you're doing Mr.Miller.

[@fox-school-of-music]

When applying the CAGED visualization to minor chords, do you have any recommended chord shapes that fit in the Cm shape and Gm shape?

[@cdamico97]

brilliant video!

[@TheCrimsonIdol987]

Lately, I've been fusing the two. My map of the fretboard has always been the triads and chords, because that was just logical to me, but for single note lines, 3NPS allows me to play any pattern in the system to connect the chords together, giving me a sound that's based in the background music, with embellishments, which sounds nicer for my ears. I much prefer this to a pure method of the two, because allows me to think more harmonically, melodically, and musically, much like my favorite guitar player, Dave Murray from Iron Maiden. He could shred with the best of them, but his playing is more based in harmony and melody. The approach I use now allows me to base my playing in harmony, forcing me to use my ears more. Any system that forces you to listen to what you're doing is perfectly valid.

[@RicardoDiazHimself]

This and the 313 are classic/staple concepts from jazz/fussion playing. Good seeing them here.

[@yngwiemalmsteen39]

happy new year martin

[@hugokraft2815]

I need help understanding this. So do you use the CAGED shapes of the chord of the rythm section is playing, or the shapes of the key of the song? And do you then learn the intervals of the scale in reference to those CAGED shapes?

[@frannyp46]

Hi Levi/Martin, have any of you read or used the David Becker book? He uses chord shapes(mainly triads) to build single line solos

[@kikomarty4337]

So, what is the best resource (or a good resource) to learn the 3 note per string method? Or even caged for that matter.

[@RonLepine]

Great discussion guys !

[@jakelee8789]

Blows me away this is even a discussion. The caged system is beautiful as well as three note or 4 note per string tricks all great technic honestly seeing the caged system on the fret board allows alot faster placement for 3 note per string riffs. Knowing is better

[@georgekelly9797]

I think a large portion of new guitar players of today want a quick and dirty method of learning guitar. They don’t realize that the same energy the expend doing that could have been spent learning the correct way. That comes to what is the correct way, big question. That’s why they should watch this video and understand there are more than one method than the one there teacher showed them. It may open up a whole new world by trying Martins method if they haven’t. Great discussion you had with Levi.

[@drankin7827]

I use 3nps patterns mostly to move between the CAGED boxes. It's more of a device that let's me use . Where the cage geometry is what I use to memorize songs and licks. The CAGED system lets me know what musical context I'm in so that I can reuse vocabulary. The 3nps system doesn't provide that. Just my 2 cents :)

[@swaggytheguitarplayer2452]

Such a interesting video 🎸💯

[@EOHRyan]

This is gonna be strange for some but I can play anywhere over the fretboard in any key without thinking about it, but I don't have fretboard visualisation and I don't know what the CAGED system really is. I learned purely from muscle memory in repeating patterns and from just playing by ear and hearing intervals, it's like a sort of autopilot system and actually when I start to think about it is when I run into trouble, usually because I will confuse myself by taking myself out of the autopilot mode and my brain is taking over where my ears and muscle memory had control. It's like when on autopilot my hands know where to go to hit the note they want based on what I'm hearing. There are limitations though, it can be an issue if it involves large jumps where the muscle memory fluidity is lost and the brain has to take over, if my muscle memory isn't aware of the note with a large jump then sometimes my visualisation won't be either and a wrong note can be hit, now based on that wrong note autopilot can then fully take over again, but the wrong note would have happened. My system falls apart when you start throwing in complex jazz chord progressions mostly because I simply cannot keep up purely by ear unless I've had a lot of time to embed the progressions into my brain, at which point it becomes like learning a piece of music rather than playing with the flow of something in real time. I'm thinking about maybe changing it up with my approach though.

[@fox-school-of-music]

For a beginner guitarist, would you consider the "standard" CAGED shape major scales a reasonable place to start? Would you do intervals or single string scales first, or would you do the CAGED shape scales first? Also, do you have a link to what arpeggio fingerings you would recommend starting with? Thanks for a thought provoking post!

[@NinoHelfrich]

Finally :D I need popcorn for this vlog

[@Milehighshred]

Use BOTH methods? WHAT?! How absurd. Using multiple approaches to expand your musical capabilities is absolutely ludicrous.

[@ville_salojarvis_lakewood_exp]

Obviously you haven't explored all the possibilities within both or either system not to mention that everybody SHOULD play scales along one string as well as improvise within restricted areas within these systems. The issue raised by Levi Clay about not being able to smoothly switch from scale to another while improvising can be solved with these three approaches over time. And as Miller stressed one MUST learn the notes on the fretboard cold.

[@modularben7421]

yea use what works for you. I had teachers refuse to teach me how to tap or do pinch harmonics so I taught myself and it was not that hard.

[@gavinreid8351]

This us exactly what should be done.

[@rockstarjazzcat]

I think you are missing the sarcasm in what he said.

[@xxxtincho]

@@ville_salojarvis_lakewood_exp Oviously you don't know what sarcasm is.

[@MR.HandyANDY]

where do you learn all that fancy stuff? what was that sweep thing he did? how do I learn how to do that?

[@fearbabyriffs]

Most 3 note per scale players & CAGED players don't even know the interval relationships. They usually only know the pattern/positions. They can't play what they hear in their head in multiple locations on the fretboard because laziness & rush towards speed playing. Two educated players making an excellent case. If you learn all the notes on the fretboard & the interval relationships between them the CAGED positions eventually reveal themselves through osmosis.

[@fearbabyriffs]

@Daniel Urry "Most 3 note per scale players & CAGED players don't even know the interval relationships." You are agreeing with what I am saying because you only mention one person.

[@Ibanizt]

Haha! Enjoyed the humour created when you mentioned the CAGED system and bad reputation. Good video tho! Thumbs up!

[@markinthemix6055]

I feel as a student in the past and even today that I was cheated by not being introduced to the caged system earlier.

[@Scias]

Same here, but it doesn't take long to start using it for great note choice. The thing that takes a long time to get used to with it is fast alternate picking over it. Despite this I still like the shapes when prioritizing note choice.

[@bradleystroup1457]

I prescribe to the whole, play over the chord idea. But that includes and doesn't include 3nps. What it does include is playing inside and outside the arpeggio/chord and what I can do with it in octaves and extension. Outside in terms of it is outside where that shape may be, not outside harmonically which is a whole nother thing.

[@danwguitar8651]

Martin, what would be the best resource to check out to learn more specifics about CAGED and the way you have presented it here? I feel like this may be a good method for tying together fragments of knowledge I've gained from different sources and teachers. I learned the major scales in 7 positions, using both variable (3 notes per string) and constant positions. But the way I've learned to jump around the neck is to cycle bits of vocab, arpeggios, etc around the circle of fifths (my teacher taught me to jump it around in 4ths) and to take bits of vocab and learn them in each of the 7 positions. But, once again, tying it all together freely has been a chore. I feel like the way I've learned has indirectly alluded to CAGED but the light bulb didn't go off until I watched this and now I want to explore the topic fully.

[@MartinMillerGuitar]

I feel terrible tooting my own horn shamelessly but my Improvisation Masterclass Vol. 1 at Jamtrackcentral might be what you're looking for. It covers the things you mentioned very specifically and I don't think I've seen another written CAGED-oriented method yet that goes into the abstract thinking involved quite as much.

[@Sandarpan]

When is Vol 2 coming out?

[@jfo3000]

I saw one youtube show how CAGED was superior to 3NPS. He learned 3NPS first and played it all over the neck, cleanly. Then showed how CAGED helped him view it differently, and in his mind bring it all together. But what if he had learned CAGED first? Would 3NPS have helped him fill the knowledge gaps and be viewed as providing the missing pieces? As well as helping him get his scalar shred down? One thing for sure, when working either approach, it's important to learn where the intervals lie. It's all about intervals and relative pitch recognition.

[@rodolfoamaralguitar]

I like Oz Noy's approach to visualization. He recommends practicing scale with regular numbers of notes per strings for two reasons: one is it is consistent and easier for the picking hand, and two it leads you to different places on the fretboard. 3nps leads you to the south, 2nps to west, 4nps to the east. Of course this does not mean that you will have to improvise in this prescriptive way, it is a way to unlock the fretboard in all directions.

[@tabishquamar]

Rodolfo Amaral nice! I totally forgot what they were talking about and kept visualising what you just said.

[@bielzinhoferreira8184]

Hey bro could u gimme the link of lesson? or what i have to type . thanks!

[@rodolfoamaralguitar]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3ucaIqCgreNpbc kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHPKnWhrnJ6oaqM Also he talks about it in his Truefire couse Improv Wizard

[@bielzinhoferreira8184]

Obrigado!

[@PaulEvansRahal]

There's this one too, prior to Truefire's (somewhat some topics are shared): jazzheaven.com/guitar-lessons/oz-noy-guitar-improvisation-workout/

[@JRHockney]

I like to say I use both however I still rely too much on the 3 note per string method because that show I started. I often wish I had started with the CAGED system because now I often find myself playing the appropriate scale over a progression by ear and only thinking about the chords on occasion and not consistantly. This makes playing Jazz and moderate to advanced Country a nightmare. I'm only starting to get a grasp on it by practicing improvisations over country tunes and getting back to my Jazz Standards I haven't touched in years. The biggest issue with focusing too much on the 3 note per string way is that it can ultimately result in lazy thinking...but then again, focusing too much on CAGED could result in lazy pattern recognition and maybe have a harder time mindlessly shredding ;p

[@martinpalmer3575]

Loved watching this guys. Though I must say i'm most impressed by how outrageously good your English is, Martin.

[@danilosajnovic2783]

@Martin Miller To TECHNICALLY end the debate by merging all of the advantages of both methods: we could simply add a chromatic/passing tone to the CAGED system whenever we encounter TWO notes on a string. This way we end up in CAGED shapes playing THREE-NOTES per string, and not only that, but we also overcome the whole TECHNICAL thing MUSICALLY.

[@MartinMillerGuitar]

This doesn't really end the debate. Adding random notes, not for musical reasons but to facilitate picking is the opposite of musically oriented thinking. It's as technically minded as it gets.

[@danilosajnovic2783]

Thanks for the reply! I agree, except that this would not be randomly added note, but rather always the same note (in the key of C it would be Ab in every position of CAGED). It is something Barry Harris teaches as an alternative method to the well established Berklee CHORD/SCALE one. If we were to harmonize this new scale with ADDED NOTE, it would open up some new musical ground.

[@samalweihe495]

@Martin Miller It would be cool to see you have a conversation with LoG to talk about fretboard visualization. He’s has a interesting way of conceptualizing the fretboard.

[@zeppelinmexicano]

As a relative newbie it appears to me that 3NPS is really meant for playing scales smoothly. Which seems to lead to the belief that scales are integral to music, so therefore just learn the scales properly and music will just happen. It doesn't seem so after listening to you guys. We need to be able to integrate the notes of a scale with chords and arpeggios and it doesn't seem like 3NPS is made for that. If you can't play the root and third together using your 3NPS, what is the real point of it? So thanks. I think you saved me some serious time.

[@MarkZabel]

Nice, non-dogmatic view. I have used CAGED since before it had that name. (I used the "Joe Pass said learn 5 areas of the neck per octave and he's pretty damn good" method.) Very interesting to me that I got trolled on my channel for showing 5 chords and then showed how it was actually the underpinnings of CAGED. The guy trolling me went out of his way to say "watch out for Levi Clay" as if he was going to bust my chops for doing CAGED. Weirdness. In any event, thanks for the open discussion.

[@joepascual967]

Loved the video but have you both considered using zoom.us video conferencing rather than Skype? You won’t have the picture and picture problem that obscures the video and flips it. Just a suggestion as it makes it hard to see the fretboard correctly on skype.

[@jordandupont8192]

It just dawned on me that this is guitar player drama and I absolutely love this lol

[@thodin87]

You just made me buy your masterclass :)

[@freedomdance7601]

Max Meindl what did you think of the masterclass. Did you actually work through it?

[@johnstimpson9084]

Thank you both for an interesting, analytical break down of the virtues of each system, it was in places a little bit like the 'priest preaching to the choir' but I think your honesty came across. One little thing which wrecked my head however was, Is Martin a leftie??? or is it very late at night and the screen or filming was through a 'mirror' effect?

[@PedroDuarteMusic]

As usual I agree with Martin. A musician dedicated to this instrument has to learn everything he requires in order to express himself, be it the CAGED or EDCAG, in a horizontal or vertical layout. It is my understanding not many people know vertical GCEAD. Be it 3 notes per string basic diatonic major scale modes, 4 notes per string. Better yet, learn it all. One has to find the symmetry in the guitar tuning: it is not a recorder, not a saxophone, not a piano. We have to learn shapes in order to know which of the C5's is to be played is a specific line. In a polyphonic instrument such as the guitar, any visual organization of pitches depends on the tuning, in this case, this tuning in perfect fourths and the exception to that rule in the 2nd string, makes it so as to see 5 recognizable and unmistakable visual patterns. Every equipment has its own requirements and tricks to operate: CAGED /GCEAD is one key to visualisation on this particular instrument. All comparations with melodic only instruments are useless when the topic is "navigating a guitar, that uses the perfect fourths tuning". In any case, half-note down Eb, in Drop D little adjustment is needed, and also for strictly fourths tunning like Alex Hutchings or Quayle use. In the other hand, for DADGAD, open D or open G, CAGED/GCEAD is of no use. So, for the ones denying CAGED usage: if you don't see it it's probably because you don't understand it right: on the P4ths tuning, CAGED is always there. For the ones defending CAGED is everything, please be aware that it is not, and chances are you have never heard of GCEAD instead of CAGED. Try playing slide guitar in open D to find that the "ear" and note functions must guide you.

[@nhdeitmers]

Hey guys. Thanks for this open and honest discussion. I would appreciate a bit of advice from you if you have a moment. :) I'm at the point where it's too late for me to not love 3nps shapes, because they let me play fast and give me a visual image of what notes belong to the key I'm in. Oddly enough I managed to learn them without the context of any root notes, I'm mostly playing by ear, finding my way into the right key, then going up and down the neck connecting any of the 7 3nps shapes plus the 5 CAGED shapes (if that's what they are, you know, the more vertical ones, that align with the pentatonic boxes) Only recently I started to identify my root notes on each string and learn which of the 7 shapes to chose for any specific finger starting on that root. This was a huge eye opener for me because now I don't get lost any more if jump more than one shape. So now my question: I'm still trying to understand how to transition to a more musical and more aware playing. From your comments I understand that you think in terms of intervals and their functions when improvising. But even with a lot of practice it seems tough to come up with a fast phrase NOT relying on shapes. (especially since I am not very aware of chords or notes) Could you please help me understand when and where to switch my thinking? As in: walk me through your thinking process when you improvise? Thank you very much for baring with me (in case you have) Professsional insights like these are very much appreciated! :)

[@avelianhiendrysiswant5854]

Lpllpp

[@miskolinaccc]

I learned visualizing the fretboard with CAGED, because it seemed to me, that the system makes sense when improvising, you hear something "triadic" in your head, you instantely know where it is, the same with something pentatonic, modal and chromatic, in CAGED these are just layers siting one over another. Recently I wanted to learn a bit more about 3NPS, because I thought it couldn't hurt, but so many of the "tutorials" were just some guy bashing CAGED for some made up reason and so made it very unappealing for me to continue, but I see that many people in the comments like to use both. So should I continue to try to learn 3NPS or is it a moot point, as the point of both system is at the end the same, to know where the every sound you want to create is on the fretboard?

[@MartinMillerGuitar]

The last phrase is what wraps it up. CAGED is just the means to find the functions you want anywhere on the neck. Whether you put 1, 2, 3 or 12 notes on a string. Watch the video where I sit down with Tom Quayle. I explain how I see 3nps shapes within the CAGED-system.

[@miskolinaccc]

Thank you for the fast response, I've seen the other video, but I wasn't paying to this particular subject, it wasn't on my mind at the time, I will watch the video again.

[@DizzyKrissi]

I learned CAGE first and after playing for more than 10 years I started learning the 3NPS-scales. When I show them to my students they ALL confirm that 3nps is harder to play since you have bigger stretches on the low-strings in paticular. For a complete understanding of the fretboard you need both.

[@Chris-MusicTheoryAndFretboard]

I don't think that's true though because CAGED is a recent invention. If you learn your notes, intervals, and chords, then that's all you really need. How did the players before the 80s make such amazing music? They learned their instrument, not a system.

[@DizzyKrissi]

@@Chris-MusicTheoryAndFretboard : "learning their instrument" is a very general statement. I guess that everyone has own inner structures to learn things. Visualizing - that's what CAGED is all about - is one of these structures.

[@francysvarona3567]

coming from a piano player who now plays guitar 3 notes works for me dividing the fret board in to 5 seems confusing

[@theericbeaty]

Pebber Brown advocates learning both systems, if I'm not mistaken, and he's an absolute master of the fretboard.

[@JunkieMonkey321]

I dont think I use either... Caged never made much sense to me, it seemed like way too much thinking was involved to be used in an improvisational context so I never properly learned it. My hands are too small to play 3NPS stuff comfortably too... I think i just have mini-shapes that I move around. The 2nd inversion shape on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings is so god damn useful and efficient for the good ol' major pentatonic sound.

[@sethh1448]

Who is the first person that Levi mentioned as a major influence? 16:32

[@7strSlnger678]

I've always used a combination of 3 notes per string and the CAGED system (I'm sure it's due to my weird combo of influences) It's all a matter of context for me. What I want to accomplish.

[@jordandupont8192]

more importantly I have never had my fretboard knowledge shortcomings highlighted so quickly as this - 18:07

[@francispariseau7562]

+Martin Miller +Levi Clay I really enjoyed your discussion guys and here is a thought... In the long run, you should be able to play any ONE octave scale starting on the first, second, third and fourth finger anywhere on the neck... Whether you CAGED it or three finger it, the idea is to point a root note, and from that point start with any finger and go up an octave or down an octave and free yourself to anything.... That's my 2 cents.

[@MartinMillerGuitar]

I agree, I'm even mentioning here that it doesn't matter which fingerings you play as long as you maintain a reference to the notes you're playing functionally. Check my video with Tom Quayle on this subject, I mention how I see 3nps-scales within the CAGED system.

[@francispariseau7562]

Exactly the secret is in the intervals and chord scale relationships. If we take the your system and mix it with Tom's, we should technically be able to tackle any musical phrase, from ANY angle... the true key to improvisation.

[@TheTelecasterforever]

To me it seems that the point is that 3NPS at caged are road maps for notes. But if you do not see the root notes and you don’t know how the intervals function against a chord you will be able to play notes on sequence but you will not make music. You would actually need to learn as many systems as possible. Did I get that right?

[@MrVyrtuoso]

One needs both really. The CAGED let's one see the patterns for how notes can be stacked vertically that also map out an array for lines. The 3NPS let's one see how lines can be navigated in a 3 note per string array that also maps out widely spaced voicings. And then beyond this, one also should know cold what pitch is produced in relation to the string's tuning with any and every given position w/out the reference point of either CAGED or 3NPS (e.g. the 6th fret is always the tritone and on a string tuned to A is D#/Eb, and on a string alternate tuned to F# the 9th fret that always sounds the major 6th is D#/Eb, and on a B string the 4th fret that always sounds the major third is D#/Eb). One should also know what the pitches are between as many distances as possible (e.g. the same pitch on a lower pitched string is produced an octave higher 2 frets and two strings up or 3 frets down and 3 strings up where strings are tuned in 4ths). Then ultimately, one should be able to identify these pitches cold by audiation and know their position on the fingerboard on any string by sound.

[@johnong2655]

This is how I want to visualize my notes, chords and scales

[@roba1899]

19:06 to 19:28 is THE fundamental concept in all this. The last time I've been this excited was when I discovered Guthrie Govan 10 years ago.

[@Scias]

Then you have something in common with me, other than your first name.

[@vanguard4065]

why do guitar players only listen to guitar players? id rather listen to Chopin than govan.

[@valebliz]

@@vanguard4065 so novel

[@Infighter_]

Love the thumbnail

[@joeschultheiss]

I think anyone that has been playing guitar for a while can see the benefits of using both of these systems. Its not as cut and dry as some make it out to be. But I do believe that learning the 3NPS is easier for a novice because they can just memorize those shapes and "shred" away. When people start talking about 3rds and intervals, it might sound too much like theory for them and they run away. Some people probably think this and try and market the easier system for more sales. This is not okay when it is also bashing the other system, which has a whole bunch of benefits for a guitarist.

[@NowakP]

It always baffles me how some people are ready and able to dig their heels in and close themselves off from more knowledge without proper understanding of it first. I suppose it's the lack of understanding that results in such a reaction, but why not explore all aspects of the problem and learn as much as possible about it? Good video guys :) Shame /some/ high-profile instructional channels have to go one way or the other...

[@patpogoallroundguitarist5814]

I used 5 position boxes for scales and arpeggios for years and didn’t know they were called caged! Why thinking about those chord shapes, when you are supposed to learn 5 shapes anyway, and all notes in them?

[@joostvandergaag2633]

Caged system scale fingering" use the one finger per fret principle to avoid stretches, keeping them to a minimum. Less effort mighr allow you to play faster. Three notes per string systems use the principle down up down or up down up to leave a string in the same direction as you enter it so that you can move onto the next string without changing direction . This procedure is called "economy picking" which supposedly makes moving from string to string faster.

[@arigarcia2058]

All depends about the melody write on paper, and hands size.

[@lu12347]

I use both - But I use caged 90% of the time , much better for chord tone visualization , play the changes, melodic control , etc- but for fast run 3nps still rules.

[@disillusioned165]

I learned the three note per string system as a kid from Doug Marks Metal Method videos. I spent hours and hours working on that and Yngwies I'll See the Light Tonight. I got pretty good at improvising in a less thoughtful way than I play after I learned the CAGED system when I started focusing more on harmony and voice leading. I had no idea for the longest time there was a war between the two. I still use the three note per string method just to change hats. It does no good to run around telling people their kung fu is no good.

[@YYYValentine]

I use CAGED for visualization, but playing with the most convenient fingering for that specific melody.

[@BlackinMind]

Yngwie is primarily a CAGED player, and then uses single string ideas to connect the CAGED positions he likes to use. Exceptions are those diagonal harmonic minor shapes.

[@thekylegreene]

i think CAGED and 3NPS are cool systems...any player would be wise to be familiar with several systems and perhaps focus on the one that serves them best. i tune in 4ths and really see everything in small 1 octave arpeggio/scale shapes and think numerically/intervalically as Martin talked about a bit. ...dogma is a true enemy of knowledge; free your mind and the rest will follow, right?

[@fs7572]

One of the best Parts is Martin´s noodling round 36.30 :-)

[@Dreamdancer11]

With caged its easy to see the full picture of the fretboard cause you can easily superimpose everything...so lets say you have the minor pentatonic first caged shape....you can then superimpose in this shape the extra notes for the natural minor or move the seventh for the harmonic minor....then within the same shape you can see the all the triads...all the arpeggios,all the modes....just by superimposing stuff or moving stuff a fret or two....i dont think you can do that so easily with 3nps...

[@trabrex7697]

There is only one truth but the wise man speaks of it in 1000 Different Way.

[@EVEROSFP1]

Why vs?

[@thesea4120]

I'm self taught and have learnt the three notes per string method because CAGED confuses me and with 3 notes pers string is easier cause I know what interval/scale i play

[@1donniekak]

I have no idea what this caged system is. I learned the notes on the fretboard, then major and minor scales in every key so I could sight read. While I no longer try to sight read, I feel my musical knowledge of the guitar neck is better than the caged setup. I can name every note in the runs and chords I play.

[@ajpeagle]

I see the fingerboard in the caged system but play three notes per string mostly.

[@minkorrh]

I can't see that using both methods would be in any way harmful. I'm primarily an ear player although I learned a lot of classical and could read music back in high school. Anything that stretches your dexterity and makes you see the fretboard in a different light than you're used to is a benefit as far as I'm concerned.

[@alandzavalamederos1783]

I think that all systems can be useful for play. Maybe the question is, what do you want to express? and what context are you looking for? in case of 3NPS is posible to create some textures that with CAGED isn't and for chord visualization and its chod tones the 3NPS is not so practic to use like CAGED, what is really important ? do music

[@jdimeleegoku2971]

I think we all know why you did this video. I would like to thank you all this content, it's awesome and you're an awesome player too, you deserve more suscriptors and social impact :)

[@pauloxis8872]

Fundamentalism is bad. Information is good. If a teacher, tutor or whatever says he "owns" the truth about something, and any other way is wrong, run like hell. Pretty simple. There is no versus here. What about Allan Holdsworth and his visualisation of the fretboard? 4 notes per string? What about Mick Goodrick's book that asks you to learn scales on ONLY one string? There is no "versus" in music. You guys are doing a fundamental job here, I just hope people pick up on this, because it may prevent YEARS of frustration.

[@superflysoulbrother]

28:34 Snap, I think Levi just called you a dummy ;)

[@Demonlord468]

Its just like Welding and Fabrication or just about anything else ive ever done in life with success.... Its does NOT matter HOW you do it its simply all about DID you do it and correctly. Nothing more nothing less. There is no wrong way of doing anything so long as the same result is achieved and achieved correctly. And of course achieved safely but that part isn't exactly relevant in the case of Guitar. This is especially in true in both Welding as well as Guitar Playing both of which ive done for nearly 20 years and well over 25 years respectively and one thing the two have in common is everyone has their own way of doing things and as long as both do things correctly and final result is nice its doesn't matter how you did it. Personally i find learning as many ways of doing something as possible results in being the most proficient no matter what it is. Sometimes some methods will work better in certain situations where other methods might not be as effective. Learning lots of different methods will always give you more tools to work with at the end of the day. Weather its welding stringer or weave or its CAGED over 3NPS learning to do both in both cases will give the best results at the end of the day. The one common denominator here is the more you practice lots of different techniques the better and more proficient you will be.

[@anthonysilva5312]

I think the thing you can’t escape is the fact that, just as the musician should serve the song, the melodic sense should lead the improvising. When I look at the the masters; Allan Holdsworth, Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Joe Pass...they all visualize the fretboard differently. What makes them all special ? Their melodic sensibility. Don’t get me wrong: this video covered great ground. (And you’re formidable players too!) I just think that a true improviser has melodic/harmonic strength that supersedes their technical/physical limitations. ...look at Django..😉

[@DarrylSyms]

17:13 Levi: "and that's where the dick measuring thing comes out" 😅😂

[@rockstarjazzcat]

Meanwhile, there are those of us that learned position playing, Berklee positions, Segovia scales, etc., with no prior awareness of either system, 3nps or CAGED, first. Framing things in terms of the two systems battling is mind numbingly annoying. There are other ways. Sure, any system resembles another this or that, but there are real differences in thought process. May 2018 put the debate to rest forever.

[@alancosens]

There are 5 million "how-to" guitar videos from metal-type guitarists but hardly any at all for country. Tell Albert Lee, Johnny Hiland or Guthrie Trapp that they shouldn't use chord shapes to reference where the notes are. lol The idea that one wouldn't be aware of where the notes fall in relation to the chord is asinine. It's the entire basis of all country, bluegrass and jazz playing.

[@pramesh.gurung]

Alan Cosens Guthrie videos with papastache was amazing. He lays out so simple with 0 ego. One of the best lessons in the internet.

[@mightymikeamps9317]

@@pramesh.gurung link?

[@shaunmcinnis1960]

Learn both. Why compare one to the other? Caged is the most useful thing I've ever learned, but 3 notes per string "how I learned my modal shapes" together allows you fly through complex sequences on any string quickly. Especially long legato runs.

[@adamf.4823]

I don't really see how using caged keeps you locked in a box. It's pretty easy to just grab notes from other positions and transition into other positions and such.

[@MartinMillerGuitar]

I know, right?

[@gabrielrothley]

I think both CAGED and 3NPS are valid. CAGED is great because it overlaps perfectly with the classic 2NPS Pentatonic shapes. I just don't like the concept of calling it CAGED and relating it to open root note triads. What about all the other diatonic arpeggios in this position? It is really useless especially when it comes to modes. Imagine you wann play D Dorian: the whole concept of root note triad visualisation falls apart. Some even describe it as playing D Dorian in the key of C Major using the F shape. This is really absurd. It would be much better just saying you play one particular diatonic shape of the parent scale over one particular diatonic chord. CAGED also fails when it comes to non diatonic chords. Also the CAGED Sweep Shapes are not really comfortable. I think people just have to realize that an arpeggio sometimes overlaps with scale shapes and sometimes they don't...just don't always rely on CAGED or 3NPS

[@satchrules101]

Martin said Pentatonic was 1 2 3 4 5 6 . .. i thought it was 1 3 4 5 6 ?

[@winstonsmith8240]

Use both. Horses for course's. Job done.