372. The Science Behind Our Choices feat. Robert M. Sapolsky

As we wrestle with the notion of humans as complex biological machines, we confront the unsettling idea that our behaviors might be preordained by genetics and our environment rather than a result of conscious choice. How do we walk the tightrope of acknowledging scientific revelations while grappling with our innate need to assign blame and praise?
Robert Sapolsky is a professor in the neurology department at Stanford University and the author of several books. His latest is Determined: A Science of Life without Free Will.
Robert and Greg discuss the neurological underpinnings of punishment and question whether our justice system is in line with our evolving understanding of human behavior. They examine the dynamics within societies that prioritize rehabilitation over retribution, as seen in the Norwegian criminal justice system, and ponder if mercy and forgiveness should be more central to our own.
unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.

[@lindaelarde2692]

I'd love to see a chat on this with Dr Sapolski, Lisa Feldman Barrett, Sam Harris, and Anil Seth...the predictive brain, hard problem of consciousness, and the absence of free will! That would be a mind blowing discussion!

[@KGP221]

I'm currently reading "A Primate's Memoir", and have "Behave", and "Determined" on the desk to be read. Going to soak it all in from this brilliant man. Statements of my own; "Equality and justice exist only in the non-existent. We know this because our natural environment consists of an infinite possible range of species all exhibiting similar behavioral characteristics yet, vastly diverse throughout their subcultures. What is diverse can not be equal. What is justice, but an individually determined value?"

[@amusicment4829]

Great interview and discussion, thank you!

[@randybrown4774]

Change can only happen from this moment on.

[@nancychace8619]

🙂 Unless we figure out how to time travel.

[@OccupyGod]

So far one of the more enjoyable post-Determined interviews I’ve seen. Robert, however, seems to be testing a new phrase and (it’s a wayyy small point - yet he is so enjoyably meticulous) I think it might need reconsideration- “it’s not by CHANCE…” that such and such person did whatever. But it seems his central point is that we are all who we are EXACTLY by chance. Or as he calls it “biological luck”. I think the concept is that who we are NOW and what we do NOW sits on all kinds of pre-existing determinants we have no control over thus excluding self-generated, individual “free will” as being a legitimate agent in our consideration of outcomes. Anyway … “It’s not by FREE WILL….” that whatever it is happened seems like what that phrase means to me. Anyway … back to the interview. Thanks.

[@T_J_]

I think what he refers to as chance is where we are born, who we are born to, etc. not the person we become.

[@MrManny075]

If you don't believe in God you come up with all excuses why this and that, if you don't believe in a soul you can't know who you are, if you believe that you are a soul that uses the body to experience life, then everything comes into place, Like he said your brain decide before you did, if you say you mean the soul it will go the other way around, it's you who decided before the brain did, that mean you do have a free will,

[@Mtmonaghan]

Uncertainty theory says below a certain scale determinism isn’t applicable. Chaos theory claims that perturbations at scales of quantum mechanics have affects on how macro scale phenomena unfold. All this says is you may not in theory be able to, given you can’t define the initial conditions, predict what world you would be choosing in. BUT in what ever world your in at the moment of perceived choice, that choice would at that moment be determined. There is no inconsistency.

[@wayofspinoza2471]

There's only one true philosopher, "Spinoza," who lived from his ideas. All others are abstract and their ideas contain no reality. Spinoza gives us keys how to improve our mind to understand clearly the realities of nature through reason and intuition, then we know how man and the universe operate from natures laws.

[@randybrown4774]

Doesn't training require punishment and reward?

[@coreluminous]

no. training requires desire to do the training and mature mentoring... the natural inclination is best. The reward, living in a healthy culture, the profit of you will allow, is the state of well being of the person and the community. Punishment does not prevent, it's always too late and in serious problems it's never a deterrence, and it does not reduce criminality.

[@ma2000]

Hello Tom Araya 😅

[@wayofspinoza2471]

There's only one true philosopher, "Spinoza," who lived from his ideas. All others are abstract and their ideas contain no reality. Spinoza gives us keys how to improve our mind to understand clearly the realities of nature through reason and intuition, then we know how man and the universe operate from natures laws.

[@randybrown4774]

Like Popeye said, "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam."

[@sjoerd1239]

Why? Just because thoughts and actions are biologically determined does not mean that the rationale is necessarily wrong.

[@cowflieswest3046]

What do we know? Today's headline reads - "Gunman in Maine's deadliest mass shooting, Robert Card, had significant evidence of brain injuries, analysis shows." :

[@lisalesinszki7536]

I dislike interviewers that need more than 10 seconds to ask a simple question. Ask your question succinctly and then stfu.

[@monkerud2108]

i agree, but philosophy is a weird subject, there is a lot of different views and almost no consensus that is terribly profound other than in the popular imagination, i seriously doubt you can find two philosophers that agree on everything even on a superficial level. but anyway knowledge is one subject, the details are what they are, the forms of reasoning differ, but ultimately i don't think an argument made without profound knowledge of history is any worse than another, it is just useful to know how a bunch of different people make arguments in general for the purposes of understanding how people reason with better or worse results. i think for example that most of what is said in philosophy is pure bullshit with truth sprinkles, but i think that applies to all fields, most of what is being said especially in public is sort of post hoc reasoning from the understanding of some model, whether it is mathematical, mental or heuristic.

[@Mtmonaghan]

Let’s reduce a phenomenon down to simplification unrecognisable to that which is under debate. Then address that reduction and be smugly satisfied we have addressed the issue.

[@wayofspinoza2471]

There's only one true philosopher, "Spinoza," who lived from his ideas. All others are abstract and their ideas contain no reality. Spinoza gives us keys how to improve our mind to understand clearly the realities of nature through reason and intuition, then we know how man and the universe operate from natures laws.

[@MrManny075]

He said the brain decides before you did, that is the problem, your brain and you, who's you? If the self is the soul then it's the soul that decides before the brain, this thing happens many times, and I know before I know subconsciously know what's around before I see it, my only explanation is I'm not the body, I'm the soul that uses the body to experience life. so that means all decisions come from the soul, He's saying you don't have free will because you didn't choose your life that's true but after that, it's your choice and you are free to choose according to what you know which means what you know is what makes you.

[@andecap1325]

No, since you belive in a supernatural "soul" ...where do the evil souls choices come from that make evil disisions? I guess you need more supernatural stuff like a Satan to blame for the poor choices... lol

[@MrManny075]

@@andecap1325 Did you read what I said? the soul uses the body to experience life the decision comes from the desire to do good or bad, an out-of-control desire leads to bad decisions or evil ones, and your ignorance leads you to think of supernatural things no one is talking about.

[@andecap1325]

@@MrManny075 your soul is the problem...

[@MrManny075]

@@andecap1325 What problem are you on about?

[@andecap1325]

@@MrManny075 your name calling soul...lol

[@jeremymr]

I think in his book Sapolsky proves we are all heavily influenced by what came before and operate under constraints, but it's a huge philosophical jump to go from that to "we don't have a shred of free will". I think if we do have some kind of free will consciousness has everything to do with it, yet Sapolsky dismisses that possibility without evidence. If you were to try to understand things like tastes or colors solely based on neuronal activity they wouldn't make any sense and you might conclude it's impossible for anyone to experience them at all. I think it may be a similar case with free will. The idea of choice makes no sense outside the context of consciousness agents.

[@rodriguezelfeliz4623]

Setting aside the fact that most evidence shows that consciousness doesn't really have as much to do with decision making as we like to think... what is consciousness made up of in the first place? As far as we can tell, consciousness is a product of brain activity... and brain activity is constrained by the laws of physics as much as anything else... right? I think that's the whole point of Sapolsky's argument. Yes, brains are complex, chaotic and unpredictible... but (like any object in the universe) they are the product of everything that came before (be it biology or environment). Neuroscience has a lot to tell us about the mechanisms that are involved in decision making, but they are not some magical unconstrained thing. They are the result of (very complex) causal interactions. At least that's what I got from it.

[@TMK1450]

„I think if we do have…“ This is the first and normal intuition that we do have free will. Neuroscientific evidence suggests otherwise. Biological processes have no room to squeeze free will into seamless processes of brain yuck.

[@wayofspinoza2471]

There's only one true philosopher, "Spinoza," who lived from his ideas. All others are abstract and their ideas contain no reality. Spinoza gives us keys how to improve our mind to understand clearly the realities of nature through reason and intuition, then we know how man and the universe operate from natures laws.

[@eristic1281]

In the book, be mentions studies where there are decisions or choices made from milliseconds up to like ten seconds before we're consciously aware. Consciousness, can be argued, like a computer monitor, is a limited display of selected information. The master is the stuff in and attached to the motherboard or as he puts it, seconds before, minutes before, hours before.... centuries before, millennia before, millions of years before. Your dopamine makes you pick your favorite color shirt today but your hormones steer you to a different shirt tomorrow. Your traumatic childhood experience with your uncle makes you pick a bright color shirt to wear to visit him at the hospital because that vengeful sensation is not tamed by the prefrontal cortex due to your lack of sleep last night. Consciousness doesn't let you choose A from B. It just makes you feel you did (post hoc rationalization).

[@wayofspinoza2471]

Spinoza, a 17th century philosopher, wrote his Ethics, and yet few understand. I put Spinoza on the same category as Euclid in his Geometric formulas which are clear and true. Spinoza's Ethics is written geometrically. His props, notes, corollary, and axioms demonstrate his clarity and truth. Spinoza clearly explains that free will is an illusion. That we are aware of the effects, and desires but unconscious of the causes of them and how they determine our existence.

[@Ana-cc5jb]

Biggest takeaway for me: contemporary science > philosophy

[@wayofspinoza2471]

There's only one true philosopher, "Spinoza," who lived from his ideas. All others are abstract and their ideas contain no reality. Spinoza gives us keys how to improve our mind to understand clearly the realities of nature through reason and intuition, then we know how man and the universe operate from natures laws.

[@JohnCahillChapel]

Thank you. Lineage matters and is formative of personal mind, personal bias and personal expression (output). Whether Jesus is God or not, we may at least carry the burden of personal lineage or formative heritage without guilt. Thus the declaration is critical: there is no condemnation for those who, though born of Adam’s line,are now born of the lineage of the Spirit of Christ. This latter realm of awareness says “accept the product fate has made you and change it because you are not blamed by God. You are understood; your biases are understood; you can face them and their nagging persistence without fearing Gods judgement”. Arise again, and again. “There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

[@wayofspinoza2471]

There's only one true philosopher, "Spinoza," who lived from his ideas. All others are abstract and their ideas contain no reality. Spinoza gives us keys how to improve our mind to understand clearly the realities of nature through reason and intuition, then we know how man and the universe operate from natures laws.

[@wayofspinoza2471]

Robert Sapolsky, no question, you are a highly educated scientist, and you see man as a biological animal with an intelligent potential. However, man is more than a physical thing. You are so right in thinking about man doesn’t have free will. Spinoza, a 17th century philosopher, explains in his Ethics the nature of man, the mind, freedom from emotional bondage, and his relationship with Nature. Spinoza understood that all animals are governed, influenced, and are determined by laws. The law of necessity, the law of self-preservation, the law of inertial, and the law of cause and effect. Lastly, the brain is not the mind. The brain is a physical thing that is the storehouse of information such as memory, and which helps regulate all the systems of the body. The mind is a non-tangible thinking thing. Its nature or essential nature is knowledge comprised of clear and confused ideas. Spinoza explains that when our thinking is clear and true, that God constitutes the essence of our mind. We are not separate from the whole of Nature or God. Spinoza’s God is Nature, a non-anthropomorphic being.

[@Mtmonaghan]

We are not a body, we are in-bodied.

[@wayofspinoza2471]

@@Mtmonaghan What do you mean we are in-body? Who or what is the "WE?"

[@theofficialness578]

I have one response, choose to have your prefrontal cortex removed, then choose to be the same person. That would prove the mind and brain are separate. Based on plenty of tangible evidence people who have lost their prefrontal cortex or had it damaged. Have a drastic change in personality and behavior. People with brain tumors putting pressure on certain brain regions. Have a drastic change in personality and behavior. Plan and simple, the mind is the brain… Also some more undeniable proof, humans aren’t the only animals with self awareness. Bonobos, Bottlenose Dolphins, Chimpanzees, Orangutans are all aware of their existence, conscious.

[@wayofspinoza2471]

@@theofficialness578 I don't think you understand what I communicated. It's possible that you follow and live by words and lack understanding.

[@sebastiaosalgado1979]

Spinoza❤

[@jaysphilosophy1951]

If Sapolsky's argument is so persuasive than why are your comments hidden? And even if his argument is such. Why keep your comments hidden? Let the people speak. I like the topic, but dislike the structure and so I will dislike this video because you keep your comments hidden. Let the people speak Leblanc....

[@JB.zero.zero.1]

They aren't hidden?

[@T_J_]

Some comments clearly are hidden but I think that's a KZbin thing (as opposed to a LeBlanc thing); it's a very strange organisation like that.

[@wayofspinoza2471]

There's only one true philosopher, "Spinoza," who lived from his ideas. All others are abstract and their ideas contain no reality. Spinoza gives us keys how to improve our mind to understand clearly the realities of nature through reason and intuition, then we know how man and the universe operate from natures laws.