.38 Special 158 gr LRN (Lead Round Nose) Tested

I have had a lot of requests to test the 158 gr lead round nose .38 Special round in the ballistic box, so here we are. The classic 158 gr LRN (law enforcement load) would travel out of a 4" barrel at a muzzle velocity of 755 FPS. This load was used for at least 75 years as the go to caliber/cartridge/bullet combination for most police forces in the United States. Lets see what results I get with it! I am also running a BUNCH of hand loaded 158 gr LRN rounds through the chronograph to make sure we are using the correct 755 FPS Load. Always appreciative of any channel help :)
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[@Walter-wo5sz]

There was a Japanese man who survived the nuke we dropped on Hiroshima and then evacuated to Nagasaki. He survived the second nuke. It's hard to get a 100% stopping rate.

[@chillmonkey6782]

Wise words

[@twistedyogert]

Lead round nose bullets have stopped many a heart over the centuries.

[@lawrencemudgett6500]

I started with LAPD in 1969. The issue ammo Remington 158 grain RNL which was known as the .38/44. It clocked over 1000 FPS from our issue 6 inch K38 revolvers and 960 FPS from 4 inch revolvers.we carried this load until the early 80s.

[@jerichofalls8236]

I bet you could tell some awesome stories. Not only about policing but America back in the day. I've been a cop in WV since 2018

[@j.s.wagner2582]

Virginia State Troopers, when I was young, carried .38 Special 158 gr. LRN rounds in Colt revolvers with 6" barrels...and thugs did not want to tangle with these officers! I still keep my 1938 Colt Officers Model 38, with King sights and a 6" barrel, loaded with Remington 158 gr LRN cartridges. I am absolutely confident in my ability to quickly dispatch any modern-day thug just as quickly as back in the day.

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

The 158gr. lrn is what I carry . My dad was a Police Officer from 1965 - 1971 before becoming a Fed. Agent . As a Cop that's what they had to carry , and it got the job done when he needed-it . During the '68 Miami riots , my father unfortunately had to shoot and kill (3) rioters but so did many other Police Officers . The round works ! Officer J.D. Tippet was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald with this round (Autopsy report & pictures are in the internet) , and in turn , Oswald himself was killed with the same round fired by Jack Ruby , and it only took (1) to put him down . As usual , ..............EXCELLENT video , and a job well done !

[@ironmatic1]

There are so many things wrong with this comment 💀 holy shit

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

What's wrong with it ?@@ironmatic1

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

What's the lie , Chump ?@@guaporeturns9472

[@oldcop18]

Sam: I had to use this load twice early in my career. Once it dropped the suspect w/a single shot and another time, a few yrs later, four rounds failed to stop the suspect and I had to use a blackjack. My only take away was that shot placement, and drugs used by the one subject, made the difference. Thanks for another interesting video. Fortunately police departments realized the importance of hollow point ammunition.

[@GunSam]

Yes at the end of the video my mention was of your experience! I remembered your story.

[@LionquestFitness]

I haven't heard anyone talking about a sap in quite a few decades. It was definitely a staple for southern law enforcement in the seventies. By the time I came along in the eighties, it's use was fading out and proscribed.

[@shortdogggonzalez9203]

@@LionquestFitness it might not be proper to make this comment on another channel but i love your videos and appreciate your vast knowledge.

[@LionquestFitness]

@@shortdogggonzalez9203 Thank you, but vast is a bit of an overstatement. I know a few things and study a lot of things.

[@williamschramm2761]

The old F.B.I., Dallas etc. was a 158 grain hard-cast, hollow point ,semi wad cutter was used by a New York detective in the 70,s, whose name I believe was Jim Cirillo used a short snobbie in the 38 caliber with very effective to say the least results. His velocities were of +p ratings out the short snub nose. The lead bullet picks quicker velocity out of the short barrel

[@rafaelfigueroa1957]

As a former State Police officer, back in the 80's we were using 38's Smith & Wesson 4'' revolvers. The ammo for that time was the 158 gr. LED round nose. In my opinion that round is one of the best thing ever happened to me. Many one shot stop the agresor. Love your videos!! God bless you and keep you safe!!!

[@shadowwolf2524]

@John Doe Yes

[@YellowHammer26]

Hard to get this kind of content anywhere else, thanks a lot.

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching!

[@traumajock]

It put bad guys on the dark side of the grass for almost 100 years. That says something.

[@ted.angell7609]

Great video as always. I don't really use .38 anymore, but it's kind of amusing that people dis a caliber that LE used successfully for years with bullet technology that isn't even as good as today's.

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

DAMN STRAIGHT !

[@Dunkleosteusenjoyer]

More people have been killed with pointed wooden sticks than all the guns ever combined. Soft lead round nose .38 special isn't 'good enough' thats why they came up with .357 hollowpoints.

[@noodlesandlobsters685]

@@Dunkleosteusenjoyer would you volunteer to get shot by 1 ?

[@SilvioManfredDante85]

@@Dunkleosteusenjoyer The .357 was invented to specifically pierce car doors in the time of Bonnie & Clyde. The .38 Special LRN was & is 'good enough' for stopping people.

[@csmats5374]

The upsides of a load like that are (1) relatively easier to hit what you're aiming at plus follow-up shots, (2) relatively low flash/muzzle blast for indoor home defense, (3) won't be viewed as an "evil" bullet, and (4) if you wouldn't want to get shot with a 22, and no one wants to get shot with a 22, you definitely don't want to get shot with this.

[@tloller52]

Words of wisdom.

[@thomasmetz3]

I carried a S&W Model 10 with 158gr LRN ammo as a duty sidearm in 1976, while working security for ERDA (pre DOE agency). BUT we also had M2 carbines and Remington 870’s as well

[@uglygunguy4810]

I like the .38 Special for the seemingly endless variety of ammo it eats. A revolver with a cast iron stomach. Now I'm hungry.

[@valeriegogel4214]

357 magnum is very good at a buffet

[@jimtheanachronist9775]

Took my S&W Model 15 to the range with 158LRN & 125FMJ. Slightly noticeable difference, but yeah, you nailed it with the level of control you get with the 4in barrel. It is a joy to shoot, and careful aim is rewarded with consistent accuracy. 158LRN is my goto load.

[@GunSam]

I will definitely be loading more. The Hornady bullets were great, very little leading.

[@Me2Lancer]

Thank you Sam. The standard lead round nose load performed better than I expected.

[@stansbornak8116]

Been waiting for this! Thanks for helping a poor shut-in out!

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching.

[@kencorsell8087]

Carried that load as an LEO for 12 yrs. After 2 shootings that didn’t go well the department decided to look at other offerings. We switched, after much testing, to the WW 158 gr. Lead semi wad utter hollow point the beefed up FBI version. Kept those to the late 80s when we traded up to 9mm 5906s with WW jacketed hollow points.

[@danoneill2846]

Thanks back in the day shot lots of that stuff on the range ., went to SWC when I rolled my own .

[@GunSam]

I used to load a lot of them too. Nice clean paper holes.

[@killacommie4mommie]

Yep,back in the 60’s and 70’s I would cast the 158 gr. SWC from a Lyman mold. Mainly because it would punch a nice hole in paper. Nowadays I shoot the RN,because it doesn’t damage a rubber dummy or self sealing targets as much.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

.38 Special is just as deadly as any 9mm. I'd favor a wadcutter over a round nose in the same loading.

[@killacommie4mommie]

Lifted_Above Yes! The 9mm is roughly the same as .38 Special,given equal bullet weights and +P loadings. And barrel lengths. It is not “just as powerful” as a .357 magnum,see the Paul Harrell videos.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Underwood has some +p 38 that achieve 400 ft-lb energy levels, yet they are 158 grain. That extra mass won't slow down as quickly as a lighter 9mm round. Also, with more mass you don't really need the high velocity to plow through something. Unless we're talking about 2,400 fps, the actual damage is the size of the hole and the placement of the hole, rather than some mythological hydraulic damage around the hole.

[@noahmercy-mann4323]

They had the nickname "widow maker", because they were such unreliable stoppers. It became standard practice for cops to just empty their revolvers into the bad guys with this load. I remember reading about a police shooting where the officer stuck his snubby right in a perp's face and dropped him with a 158 LRN, only to come back a few minutes later after finishing the raid to find the fellow sitting up asking for a handkerchief for his "bloody nose". Jim Cirillo was a member of New York's "stakeout squad" back in the late 60's/ early 70s and was involved in more than 20 gunfights, during which time he killed 11 men. He HATED the 158 LRN. During a bank robbery, he dropped one robber, and his buddy took cover behind the body with only the top of his head showing. Cirillo placed multiple shots on the guy's dome, but the round nose just skipped off his skull and didn't stop him. This led to him using hollow-base wadcutters loaded backwards and ultimately developing the "Law Grabber" bullet with the help of Kaswer.

[@daft_wizard]

that all seems pretty far fetched

[@noahmercy-mann4323]

@@daft_wizard there were multiple lawsuits by police widows over the miserable stopping power of the 38 LRN. Just do a little search, and you'll find that information, as well as the account of the perp Cirillo shot in the face five times with that load from a snub-nose revolver actually walking to the ambulance himself.

[@daft_wizard]

@@noahmercy-mann4323 police? Law suits? Big surprise

[@Amalgam67]

@@noahmercy-mann4323 Not sure the 38 LRN was the actual problem. Barely adequate initial training and next-to-no requalification tests are the more likely culprit. The NYPD and most other large city departments are notorious for not providing adequate firearms training to their officers. Even now the NYPD has a miserable record for number of shots fired per felon stopped. They often site budget and time constraints as the reason to neglect practice. The same issue came up after the FBI's disastrous 1986 shootout in Miami. The FBI's tactical experts said it was a failure of training and tactics and ultimately the leadership decided to use a technical solution for their training shortcomings.

[@morzus6027]

@@daft_wizard agreed

[@sulaco2122]

Paul Harrell tested these rounds in his meat target and was very impressed by the results.

[@m.loughlin1915]

I just came across the video you mentioned a couple days ago. The gist of the test was a comparison between the classic 158 gr. RN and a lighter HP bullet, FROM A 2" BARREL. The RN won hands down.

[@markgoostree6334]

I bought a .38 spec. revolver in '73. It was the first cartridge I reloaded. I favored the 158 gr swc for some reason. You did a good video and the depth of penetration kind of surprised me. Cool stuff.

[@GunSam]

Thanks. I like the 158 SWC too. Classic little round.

[@markmuch1295]

Thanks. Paul Harrell prefers the 158 grain SWC to the LRN in standard pressure .38 special for defense. Jack Ruby killed Oswald with one round of .38 special 158 grain LRN in the gut from a Colt snubbie.

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

........and Oswald killed Officer J.D. Tippet with the exact same round , and it too was fired from a snubbie . I guess that's what you call "Karma" !

[@filianablanxart8305]

SWC will penetrate hard barriers and bone better . * When traveling point forewards * , the SWC will create a larger wound channel than RN , even though the exact factor is heavily debate . The RN is more likely to tumble in flesh , and a tumbling RN does more damage than a point forewards SWC . In street results , the two tendencies pretty much cancelled out , and the overall results were essentially identical .

[@filianablanxart8305]

And in the JFK Department : I take no position on any of the other Conspiracy Theories . The one data point of indisputable forensics is that the bullet that Killed J.D. Tippit was NOT fired from the revolver that was taken from Oswald when he was arrested . The revolver taken from Oswald @ arrest , had been originally mfg in .38/200 aka .38S&W , and was subsequently " converted " to .38spl by an Importer or Distributor by running a .38spl into the chambers . This was a common practice in the '50s and '60s . Oswald's confiscated revolver had a .361 bore . Firing conventional .38spl lead ammunition in such guns would show gas cutting on the bullet , or bumped up base diameter , or both . The bullet that killed JD Tippit was fired through a .357 bore , and had no signs of gas cutting . Did Oswald start out with two revolvers and ditch one ? Did someone else kill Tippit ? I have no idea .

[@Amalgam67]

@@filianablanxart8305 Since all I can find right now is LRN I might as well just use that in my snubbie.

[@theoriginalOSOK]

The LSWC was a huge leap forward in technology over the round nose. Elmer Keith was a fanboy of the semi wadcutter - of course, his design is famous.

[@justusupnorth8262]

Nice to see the performance of the old standard.

[@GunSam]

Yes it's good to have a baseline to compare to.

[@andywilson8698]

Nice ,good video.was interested in that round for a while . Thank you for all the testing you do.

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@tomgoodwin9161]

For me, the softer lead is best including pure lead. If you cannot get anything else the round nose will suffice I guess but The semi-wadcutter at the same velocity as the round nose and in soft lead will likely do a fine job. A full wadcutter same weight better yet. Good, thought provoking video. Good job.

[@Matt-yk3rt]

Just bought a box of these babies. Got about 140 rounds of 357(125gr-158) mag for my 357 snub ontop of the 38s...I think she’s going to be very very happy for awhile.🇺🇸❤️

[@jalan8171]

This load combination displayed the momentum effect well. The round nose profile of this bullet most likely did not expand given the hardness of the lead alloy. An alloy blend of softer mix could show greater deformation particularly were the bullet of struck harder material such as rib or hip bone. Astounding that with the current 'shortage' that rounds of this OG configuration are commanding over $40 for a box of 50. Sign of the times of insanity in which we must contend.

[@Graydog-sx6le]

Another great video. Not my first choice of load but not my last either. It’ll do the job.

[@GunSam]

Thanks. Inverted hollow base wadcutter test two is coming up, but with played bullets. Haven't filmed it yet but my Berry's bullets come tomorrow.

[@bigal2696]

Interesting! Especially when you consider all the high tech guns and ammo choices that are available.

[@CeltKnight]

Like so many other mid-powered handgun rounds: When it works, it works well enough; when it doesn't work, likely nothing else in its power class would, either. From what I've seen in tissue, most handgun rounds, hollow points or not, do about as much damage as shoving a similar-diameter drill rod through the target. Some have more "Thump" but physics being what they are, it's not enough to physically move a human adult. That said, there are a lot of good reasons to use expanding ammo (limiting pass-through, less ricochet danger, etc.). Anyway, another VERY interesting test and it's good to see what police back in the days I first became gun-aware were toting. :)

[@GunSam]

Thank you, gives a little bit of a standard to work with.

[@Fudmottin]

I’m going to classify that round as lethal.

[@GunSam]

Maybe!

[@willknowdoggs4764]

I always wondered about this classic round, thanks to your video I have a better idea about it.

[@talon2pro]

Living vicariously through your testing. Hadn't been to the range since b4 Corona. Keep up the good work!

[@GunSam]

It's tough where I am too. Limited travel and bans visiting others' homes. Tricky when I have kids.

[@garrettknox5266]

Glad to see loads with Titegroup since its all I can find in quantity.

[@Crazycooter37]

I bought some 158 gr LRN about a week ago from a shop that had run out of everything else (imagine that). They are Sellier & Bellot bullets. I needed some range ammo and definitely needed the practice. Thanks for this video and all the work you do. I'm sort of new into the .38 special snubby world and you cover it well.

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching.

[@bubbajones5905]

The old ammo tables listed this round as 855 fps. That was probably taken from a fairly long unvented pressure barrel in a lab. When affordable chronographs became available, it was found to be under 800 fps in most cases when fired in a "real" revolver.

[@DDDSSDDDSSDDDSS]

So moral of the story is to load "spicier"?

[@redesert_boy8202]

This test was very interesting for me since right now since .38 Spl not just +P is not available or very little so, I am having to use some .38 Spl LRN for practice and in search of a self defense round. Mostly due to acquiring that Colt Detective Special 2" snub nose about 1994 vintage (series 4) and I need to be judicious about using +P and am trying to find the most effective accurate round for use with it. Thanks Gun Sam!

[@norby0418]

I have a copy of an advertisement from S&W printed in the early 1950’s. The revolver pictured is a pre-M10. In the advertisement they state it was safe to shoot the 38/44 rated at 1150 FPS and also mention that the standard Remington-UMC LRN 158 grain was rated at over 900 FPS from a 4” barrel

[@norby0418]

This was the standard of the day! What happened?

[@scubaguy007]

I had an old cop friend that I used to go diving with who told me that he would always grab the shotgun because he never wanted to trust his revolver carry ammo. He was a cop in the 60s and 70s retired in the middle 80s in Atlanta.

[@nobody-hr1lo]

You can't carry a shotgun in your pocket or ankle...that's the point of this video.

[@scubaguy007]

@@nobody-hr1lo yeah I don’t think comment applies to the video. It was more about Roberts trust issues.

[@neiljohnson6815]

For a .38 special, especially snub nose, the absolutely best round is a soft lead 158 gr, semi wadcutter.

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

You're 100% SPOT-ON ! I carry the LRN because I don't hand-load , and it seems that there are no ammo manufacturers that make factory loaded std. pressure Semi-Wadcutters . If by chance you know of any , please let me know .

[@virginia7370]

@@alexandermfernandez9283 You might want to check Remington Target loading using a 158gr LSWC ... It's loaded to approx. 750fps, and is not a hollow point

[@sean0181]

@@alexandermfernandez9283 underwood

[@mkshffr4936]

HBWCs aren't bad either.

[@cal30m1]

It’s weird to think as recently as the 80’s this was my department’s issued ammo.

[@nobody-hr1lo]

Sad to say but 80s was 40 years ago...I wish those years would have never passed though.

[@LionquestFitness]

I tend to believe the Jelly Bryce style of shooting the FBI used to practice where you crouch and shoot up was created around this bullet. From Bryce's experience in close quarter gunfights, the soft lead bullet traveled up, causing a great deal of damage to vital organs. On the other hand, Jim Cirillo found the round nose bullet didn't work well on head shots and would glance off the skull because of it's round shape. BTW - if you have Kindle, one of Cirillo's books is available as a free read.

[@GunSam]

Cool, I didn't know that information.

[@LionquestFitness]

@@GunSam On Jelly Bryce, I'm guessing. I've always wondered why he created that form of point shooting, but a light clicked on when I watched the assassination of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby and saw how he killed him with one rushed shot from the hip.

[@smartacus88]

I'm no Cirillo, and I don't doubt his credentials for one second. The guy is the genuine article. Now for my humble observation. A 158gr LRN bullet fired from a 38 Special "glancing" off a human skull is an almost laughable proposition to anyone who has a passing understanding of human biology and physics. Even the pros aren't beyond making stuff up. As a child back in the 90's I read The American Rifleman religiously, and can remember so many verifiable experts claiming that the AKM was a 6MOA rifle at its best. That particular claim sticks out in my memory, but if I thought about it I could quote so many more. The men that made these absurd and disproven claims were respected experts by anyones measure mind you.

[@LionquestFitness]

@@smartacus88 All i can say is that human anatomy has great deviation as to the contour of bones, the thickness thereof and other factors such as the elasticity of tendons and ligaments. I know of one case some decades ago from a neighboring jurisdiction, where an officer fired point blank with the 158 grain, semi waddcutter hollowpoints that were popular at the time at a suspect's chin and the bullet split in two without penetration. These kind of freakish things happen. However, Cirillo's book is currently on Kindle for free if you have Amazon Prime. In it he relates some of these kind of anomalies. It is worth a read even if you disagree.

[@tonysid3563]

How willing is Jim Cirillo to take a .38 special round nose to his forehead to substantiate his "theory "?

[@robertnation3077]

Liked that classic test Sam. Would love to see the “F.B.I.” load, a .38 special 158 grain LSWCHP +P from either Winchester or Federal shot through your “jug or not” box!

[@GunSam]

Thanks. I have tried similar but what I have tried has been either lower or higher than the traditional FBI load's energy.

[@ssds2830]

Charter arms Shelton 38 snub nose love it

[@jimmieburleigh9549]

Back in the day as police officers my grandfather and dad would drill hollow points in their carry ammo when that's all they had or very little of the good stuff. I didn't have to worry about that when I came along.

[@leonardmarciano4444]

The two most important points for defense are 1. penetration 2. creation of blood channels. This caliber seems to do both. Is the "BEST"-probably not but will it be effective-probably yes.

[@filianablanxart8305]

Back in the day , I chrono'ed actual 158 RNL Federal Factory loads . To match the velocity from the same revolver was 3.4gr WW231 .

[@valeriegogel4214]

A snub 38 will always be viable. Hit someone in the trunk of the body once, maybe twice and 98 percent of the time the fight is over. Same goes for revolvers in general. Especially a good 357 magnum w a 4 to 6 inch barrel and a 7 to 8 round capacity. Throw in a speed loader or 2 and your golden

[@Mindhacker1961]

Thank you for your presentation.

[@mouthagapeape8732]

Cool test Sam thanks.

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@REBELDAWG308]

A new found respect for the .38spl.Looks like you put a lot of work in this video with all the hand loads.Great info I'll look in to more .38spl for my small revolvers.

[@GunSam]

Thank you. I don't often think about the work, sometimes it's fun. Spend a little time reloading one day, prepping targets the next, then go out and shoot another.

[@REBELDAWG308]

@@GunSam A lot of work you do to your channel to make a video.Dedication goes a long way these days and it shows.I know I need to do more for my channel but work keeps me busy 55-60 hrs a week driving my big rig.

[@erniewalden3050]

That smith is beautiful man. Allways wanted one but little to much for my funds haha. I do have a 4 inch ruger go 100 and a taurus 605 snub. Both chambered in 357 mag.

[@petergrant9259]

Many died from lead poisoning in the day...another interesting video !

[@GunSam]

Thanks

[@chrish.4067]

Interesting, I came across some 158 grain fmj flat nose 38 special by Military Ballistic Industries in a gun store recently. I think the velocity is around 760 fps according to the internet. It's a sturdy load judging by the recoil. I would not hesitate to use it for personal defense, though my snubbys shoot +p hollow points well for me. Good video. Thx

[@redesert_boy8202]

Mr. Gun Sam thanks for giving me the link to this video. As I mentioned, some of the older Colt DS were rated for .38 Spl with only a limited number of +P rounds (in the 4th series 1994 one I have it was 1500) before being returned to Colt for inspection. Therefore I am judicious with +P use. At this time of limited supply I use Hornady 110gr FTX Critical Defense, however I also have always had 158 gr LRN knowing that used to be the go to load in the days of old. Appreciate you taking the time with the loads, chronograph, and Jug or Not. Stay safe and healthy, sir!

[@carlosreyes6448]

I remember the day when lawinforcement, had these .38 special 158 grain bullets on there belts. Before the speed loader.

[@skiphinson8620]

LRN .38 special at 750 to 800 FPS ain’t so bad. I’ve fired a bunch of em into different test mediums over the years as well as small game and one deer. It works and is easy to control.

[@crankygunreviews]

I finally got my reloading bench set up and have primers coming so I can get some of these loaded. I only have Silhouette powder right now, and I have American Bullets 158 grain lead round nose bullets, and some 148 grain wadcutters. I need to get my load data ready for those to start. I'm glad the bullets are cheap too, Cabelas has a plethora of 38 special bullets in stock.

[@CommunismiEstCacas]

As the powder charge increased the bullets speed became more consistent. Interesting...

[@richarddegise6396]

New subscriber. Ammo being hard to find these days I found some .38 LRN. I am glad For the review and like your setup. Thanks

[@ratagris21]

Great video and presentation. Unfortunately not everyone appreciates the classic rounds, because it's not the latest and greatest they won't use them. Something is better than nothing. As long as it stops the threat it is ideal. Shot placement is key.

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@cbnickolay]

I think a review of the Chicago Load would be interesting.

[@richwilcox9564]

Nice job, great info. Well done.

[@GunSam]

Thanks

[@olenavie5950]

Great video. Very informative.

[@Ford360CID]

Sam your test of the lead round nose bullet at under 760 FPS was a very good duplicate of the the old police issue round, and when you fired it in the water jugs i knew it would tumble, as you've tested the semi wadcutter in the past the lead semi wadcutter bullets would plow through those water jugs practically in a straight line but the round nosed designed bullets at slower velocity's allowed the bullet to yaw like a 200 gn lead round nose at say 580-625 FPS, surgeons would have a tough time removing these bullets out of a human body because it normally was found in a much different part of the body leaving a damaged track wound thru the body caused by the bullet bouncing off the rib cage or shoulder which would not go thru the bones but rather ricochet inside the body and because some of these bullet's would be in sensitive parts of the body they were often left in the body because surgery would times prove fatal or paralyze the patient.

[@GunSam]

Thanks for weighing in. Very interesting information. Just goes to show that energy and even theatrical damage in testing mediums does not always translate into effectiveness.

[@Ford360CID]

@@GunSam Agreed. great video i love all things 38spl.

[@TheDustysix]

I am intrigued by the defunct .38 Spl. 200gr. LRN and the .38/200-.38 S&W 200gr. LRN.

[@nobody-hr1lo]

Those would be interesting out of a snub...

[@nobody-hr1lo]

You are getting close to 45acp ball ammo performance there.

[@alexmcgregor2854]

Great video, I’ve been curious.

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@crankygunreviews]

Some pretty big deviation from round to round even in the same loading, until you get to your 3.4 grains load. The 3.8 grain seemed good too. The lower loading seemed to be very inconsistent. I was just looking at some factory 158 grain lead round nose, I may pick some up.

[@doghousedon1]

I'd love to see more KZbin vids showcasing semi-wadcutters. In my tests, these are the puppies that work. But your test apparatus is more sophisticated than mine. Thanks for the vid.

[@GunSam]

I have tested a few here and there. I can't recall which videos but I've done it

[@allenbolen9705]

Wow slowest ammo I’ve ever seen! I didn’t expect that😱

[@RB-lk4or]

I chuckle every time you say baloney.

[@timothyprice9064]

Bullets are about the same as real estate, location, location, location. 38 spl is plenty enough to get the job done in most cases.

[@bobhartman2571]

Thank you.

[@freedomfirst5420]

Good video, as always.👍👍

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@johnkizziah108]

Damn good test sam

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@lylesmith6304]

Good practice load for 38/ 357.

[@Johnny-jr2lq]

I just picked up a Ideal 358311 single cavity mold I also happen to have a brand new 1lb of tite group powder. I plan on running this load through a Ruger Security six. This should make for a pleasant experience at the range.

[@m.loughlin1915]

In the days before 14 oz. 5 shooters and boutique $1.50 per round ammo, there were only 3 kinds of factory 38s. 146 gr. full WC target loads, standard velocity 158 gr. RN @ a claimed 855 fps, and a 158 gr. RN @ a claimed 1090 fps. The latter 2 were constantly vilified in the gun culture as being unable to stop even a field mouse. When the bean counters crunched the numbers to come up with their conclusions they left out one crucial factor..... BAD MARKSMANSHIP. When the officer or citizen did his part in regards to shot placement, the standard 38 LRN load performed just as dependably as a 45 auto, if not slightly better. A 458 Winchester Magnum is of no effect if the target is missed. Also of note....the aforementioned standard 38 is considered to be a "+P" in this day and age. For EDC I carried the 38 Special 200 gr. LRN load @ about 700 fps with full confidence. Sadly, in this age of trendy HPs that don't even expand most of the time, that 200 gr. load is no longer available.

[@lawrenwimberly7311]

I prefer the rem UMC green and white box LRN

[@troy9477]

When you mentioned the 3/4" entry hole in the jug, i assumed that was an indicator amthat it was starting to tumble. Good to know that the old standby can still be reasonably effective if you don't have anything else- or live in NJ. Even in Kalifornia we can still have whatever hollowpoints we want. For now.....

[@johnnorman7708]

158 grain @ 850 FPS isn't a monster killer by any stretch, but it actually has about all you need out of a .38 Special to be a great field load. Switch to SWC or SWCHP and you have all bases covered.

[@johnnorman7708]

Elmer said a jacket on a six gun bullet is like a dog with 2 tails. I tend to agree. Especially for .38 Special. I have slung far more cast than jacketed. I have used or more accurately tried XTP, and it will expand some at .38 Special speeds, and is very accurate. I think all it will really do for you is cut the lube related smoke and any bore leading potential.

[@tmdiecastreviews4437]

Great video!!

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@Fudmottin]

Watching this again in 2022 April 21. I found some loaded 158gr LRN at MidwayUSA, both Remington and HSM. Both rated for 755 fps. The nice thing about 755 fps with a 158gr projectile is that gives you a staggering 200 ft-lbs of energy! Yeah, I know. That's not at all impressive. Although what it is is enough to break bones on the way OUT.

[@juanpablosaenzcastaneda4643]

Nice video as always

[@GunSam]

Thank you

[@juanpablosaenzcastaneda4643]

@@GunSam be safe man and keep the good work coming. Blessings from Guatemala.

[@charlespatton1566]

After 3.3 grains, each 0.1 grain powder increment provided between 21 and 25 fps, comparing the averages

[@elvyfoster7455]

During Covid19, the PPU 158 LRN was about all I could find for my 38 special. Cool thing about this ammo from PPU is that it is rated at 902 fps.

[@mkshffr4936]

Elvy, you could always file the LRN flat for a little better terminal effect.

[@mkshffr4936]

I suspect that the same load with a wide flat point or SWC would be more consistently effective than the RN.

[@GunSam]

it would pass right through most of the jugs

[@MegaAppleshit]

Wide flat nose and super soft almost pure lead would be nice i think.

[@richerich853]

Maybe you can follow up with the"FBI" load.

[@tcrides2137]

You should give HS6 a try for that same load, you can get a bit better velocity than Titegroup. You would see more like 900-1000 fps depending on what barrel length you are shooting from. Thanks for all the ammo testing man

[@Bryl25]

I was under the impression that the 158 LRN was a bit hooter at 830 FPS. I have copies of military manuals that listed 158 grain .38 Special at 830 FPS.

[@GunSam]

Maybe, I don't know. I do know the research I found said 755 FPS.

[@troy9477]

Are u sure that wasn't the 130 gr ball load, the USAF service load? The military seldom ever used lead handgun bullets. That velocity sounds familiar

[@Bryl25]

@@troy9477 They were 158 grain FMJs the 130 grains were listed at 950 fps. Then there was a 130 FMJ listed at 700 fps for the aluminum revolvers.

[@robaldridge6505]

I like 158 round nose FLAT POINT about 750 fps, that's my g.p. load, regular round nose tend to deflect and/or riccochet for me, my EDC is the old 200gr. Super Police load

[@valeriegogel4214]

They will work fine. You can hollow them out some to make a round that will expand. Not as much as a hp but it's just a thought. I've tried it. It works.

[@daft_wizard]

Every time your hand grabbed the jug at the bottom of the screen it freaked me out

[@GunSam]

I hope that's not your courage limit.

[@daft_wizard]

@@GunSam it’s not but it definitely took me by surprise.

[@julianritter6519]

Enjoyed your video, not much on cast lead performance out there, I see a great opportunity for you to capitalise on that. Jhp and fmj done to death, would love to see lrn swc etc on 45 ACP all the way down, just how viable are reloads boolits for self defence and perhaps Teflon coated projies too. Great setup would love to see more. This is the first video I've seen of yours and about to explore , thankyou. Regards Julian.

[@mkshffr4936]

Another thought... Wad cutter in the chambers and 158-200gr LRN or LSWC in the speed loaders.

[@wemcal]

Great video and great round... we didn’t use those we had .357mag.. I shot plenty on the range

[@GunSam]

Thanks

[@OldManMontgomery]

Sam, most all the major manufacturer make (under 'normal' conditions) a .38 Special 'service' load; a 158 grain RJL bullet at an advertise 755 fps. I suspect every ones loads are a bit different and every lot made is just a little different. Saami specifications for pressure give a 20,000 CUP AVERAGE. So, the bullet velocity will vary a bit. Aside from that, I have several revolvers in .38 Special. How much you think they all shoot to the same velocity standard? They don't. Your decision to use the load you did is spot on. It's as close to the ideal as most folks will get reloading (other than Blind Dumb Luck) and is within the limits of 'normal'. And it was all the same load. Your 'box' showed much more power and delivery than expected? Could the bad rap it has have something to do with marksmanship? Good job again. Fair and even handed evaluation. Good video.

[@corycarlson8712]

Great video... I've always wanted to know how these would do.

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@chuckhaggard1584]

It's common for RN FMJ and lead bullets to yaw in water or tissue.

[@smartacus88]

It's not competitive with modern pistol caliber loadings, but you have to ask yourself does it do enough? For a lot of applications the old load is as good as it ever was. It's still a useful and versatile load. I keep several hundred rounds of 158gr LRN in my 38 Special ammo inventory. Edit: The 9mm is technically superior on paper, but in actual use it and the 38 Special are equivalent with similar loadings. Anything it loses on paper to the 9mm it makes up for in actual performance. My point being that 38 Special is noticeably more accurate than 9mm.

[@GunSam]

I was doing some fast drills with this ammo at a later date just pull up the gun and shoot 6 rounds from my 4" revolver in 1.5 seconds from 7 yards. Was surprised to get about 5 of 6 in a 2" group that fast. So that's one advantage. I did the same thing with 158 gr JHP .357 Mag and got maybe an 8" group in 2 seconds. So scattered powerful .357's or 5 rounds impacting the same organ. 9mm is good for hard thin barriers but no barriers and .38 vs 9mm do similarly well.