.38 SPL Backwards Wadcutter Ballistic Test

[@GunSam]

I wanted to give you guys the option of obtaining ammo similar to what I tested today. My research points to the Winchester Super-X as being the closest to my hand loads. Lucky Gunner offers the ammo and they ran tests on it, they averaged 27 FPS slower in a 4" barrel than my hand loads did in my 4" barrel, which is close enough to say it's possible the guns themselves and or elevation conditions could be the only reason for the difference in velocity. Judging from the photos, Winchester probably uses a slightly harder bullet so the expansion isn't quite what I got with the forward facing round, but overall this ammo will be close to what I used: www.luckygunner.com/38spl-winchester-super-match-148gr-wc-50 If anyone wondered about the load data I used for this ammo here it is: Hornady 148 gr HBWC bullets/ Hodgdon Titegroup powder/ CCI 500 primers. The traditional seated used 3.0 gr of powder and was seated to 1.160 OAL. The backwards seated used 3.3 gr of powder and was seated to 1.300" OAL.

[@bosstube9046]

I'm planning on doing this with a 41 magnum 200 gr hollowbase wadcutter loaded backwards at 1100 fps is the load I'm looking at I'm thinking with the heavier bullet I'll get better penetration Gonna fiddle with the velocity at my hunting distances tell I'm satisfied with the expansion/penetration I wanna use it for a 200 yard coyote load The gun is a 4 5/8 ruger blackhawk that is currently being converted to a bisley

[@NoGoBu]

This test breaks my heart, 'I love bologna sandwiches. 😢 What a waste !

[@hardball107]

I started carrying DEWC's for defense years ago in my 642 because of the failure of jacketed rounds to expand, during deer season I shot 3 different types into a deer I took to check. I powder coat my wadcutters bright orange so you know they are not standard target loads and are clearly visible from the business end. My favorite load is with a 148gr DEWC (Hodgdon Data), work up slowly at your own desecration, 5.0gr of Silhouette powder for 850+ fps out of the 1.75" barrel, slightly +P. Tested those too, formidable at those velocity's. In my 3" 357's with the extra velocity Federal HST, Hornady 110gr XTP or Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection 357 work just fine.

[@garydayton2963]

I handled a homicide where the store owner (gun dealer ) shot a robber with 38 special reversed wad cutter ammunition. He k5ed the suspect 5 times. Per the medical examiner he has never seen so much internal damage in a shooting. Medical examiner requested the ammo for review. The bullet at close range did it's job. So for self defense close range it works.

[@daverotroff6873]

Love the "k5ed" reference. I have not heard that in many years. As a retired LEO we tossed that term around quite a bit back in the day.

[@steveboynton5040]

I've reloaded for years and have an accurate 38 special +P load using a reverse WC traveling 1,000 fps out of a 2" barrel. It expands to .70 and penetrates 16" in water, equivalent to about 11" in ballistic gel. My tips are: (1) Use Hornady 148gr WC as it hold together better because it doesn't have grooves. (2) Place a gas check on the flat end. This dramatically increase accuracy as it causes the bullet to stabilize rather than squirt out the barrel. (3) Use the various loading manuals to keep it safe. I use the loads for the 158 JHP loads which creates a margin of safety. I get about a 15% increase in the velocities due to the lighter weight and reduce drag. I've shot the 148 reverse WC to over 1,300 fps without any problems from a 357 and have hit the bullseye at 30 yards (on a good day).

[@tinsoldier5621]

Nice

[@danmertz3734]

Thank you for proper terminology reverse wad cutter.

[@hardball107]

Sounds awesome, I use 5.0gr of Silhouette powder and a 148gr DEWC and get just over 850fps out of my 642. Wouldn't care to share your load with us with the appropriate cravats ?

[@edwardcnnell2853]

The backwards loaded wadcutter achieves the goal of not over penetrating and stopping in a person when used for self defense. That large expansion and shallow penetration means more hydro static shock to the target.

[@spazingorilla]

edward cnnell I was thinking the same I wouldn’t want to hit unintended personnel behind a wall ect.

[@edwardcnnell2853]

@@spazingorilla Yes, the very family we we are trying to protect are on the other side of the wall. Which is why my .44 magnum is kept unloaded, shoot that for the pure fun of it. Though I have some .44 Special Glaser safety rounds if needed.

[@tatsuhirosatou5513]

@@edwardcnnell2853 you could load some 44 specials that duplicate a hot 45acp and have a great home defense gun.

[@edwardcnnell2853]

@@tatsuhirosatou5513 Thanks. My reloading equipment is in another state in my brother's shop. He keeps saying he will bring it down but haven't seen it yet.

[@edwardcnnell2853]

@@tatsuhirosatou5513 I remember now. Elmer Keith was increasing the powder charges in his 45 revolver round to see how much power he could work them up to. Then he blew out the cylinder of his revolver. He decided to try increasing the loads on .44 Special because he found a revolver that was more robust. That is why we have a .44 magnum instead of a .45 magnum.

[@liberaceboiithe3rd5]

Your in-depth appreciation and testing for revolvers really is a treasure

[@CaptVanO]

I have been carrying backwards facing wad cutters in my 357/38 snubbies since the mid ‘70’s. Muzzle velocity a consistent 750-ish FPS. Great expansion and not too much penetration.....great hydrostatic shock and wound channel. All the things that were in this video. Well done video!!

[@wizardofahhhs759]

Any piece of lead flying at you at those velocities has the potential/ability to kill. I load plain old 230gr. FMJ ball ammo in my .45acp carry gun and never feel inadequate. Keepin' it simple.

[@herbderbler1585]

@ in 9mm that is a problem, but 45ACP is a much slower heavier projectile with a significantly larger cross section impacting the target. They're not known for overpenetration so I wouldn't worry too much, especially considering 45ACP is less likely to need followup shots to stop the target. Every pull of the trigger is another chance for a miss, especially in a high stress situation.

[@vlogfriendsutopia]

@@herbderbler1585 kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJzRoomHedifkNU all but one penetrated 32 inches of gel. FBI protocol is 12-18. That's overpenetration for sure. You'd ideally want that 12-18

[@shadowwolf2524]

Same here. I have an uncle who was a Marine in Vietnam. He used his 1911 with hardball a few times to take out close range threats. He has pictures to prove it. The 45 hardball made some nasty wounds! He said they were all 1 shot stops. His 2 main carry guns are a 45 1911 and a Berreta 9mm. He carries FMJ in both. He just laughs and asks them how many people have they shot and killed when someone questions his choice of ammo. I have no problem carrying FMJ and Lead solids in my carry guns.

[@theparalexview785]

We experimented a lot with reversed wadcutters and handloads from various revolvers in various media back in the 1970s. The results were inconsistent. Sometimes the hollow "tip" would mushroom, sometimes it would pinch closed. Often it would keyhole, depending on revolver and twist. Hard cast wadcutters were more likely to pinch closed; swaged lead would mushroom, but would lead up the barrel and shavings against the forcing cone risked jamming the cylinder. The loads seemed okay for small game like rabbits, but a conventional wadcutter would do as well. We ended up sticking with hard cast semi-wadcutters with Bullseye or Unique, which was pretty much the standard revolver load of that era for hand loaders. BTW, I later tried the reversed hollow base wadcutters in a smooth bore Ethan Allen replica .38 black powder side by side double handgun. Worked surprisingly well.

[@zivendine]

I’ve been shooting full or button nose wadcutters since the 70’s. For 38 Special they are by far the best for shot to shot accuracy. Hollow base wadcutters will give a very slight improvement but if you’re a home bullet caster they are a king sized PIA to cast. The most impressive bullseye revolver shooting I ever saw was done with a 32 S&W shooting factory swaged double end wadcutters. Been to many years to recall the distance but I believe it was at least 25 yards. The shooter an elderly man, a retired horse and cattle Veterinarian shot numerous six shot single hole clusters.

[@GunSam]

If anyone wondered about the load data I used for this ammo here it is: Hornady 148 gr HBWC bullets/ Hodgdon Titegroup powder/ CCI 500 primers. The traditional seated used 3.0 gr of powder and was seated to 1.160 OAL. The backwards seated used 3.3 gr of powder and was seated to 1.300" OAL.

[@ED-2.0.9.]

Very interesting video! And thank you for the load breakdown. Would you categorize the recoil as light or standardish for .38? I was very struck by the expansion of the first traditional load. Most gel tests of wadcutters show almost no expansion and substantially more penetration. I wonder if it was the sternum analog that caused that expansion. I really dig the bologna pectoral and particle board bone tests, and in instances of testing like this it might be good infos to conduct the bologna test with the particle board and a side-by-side comparison without the particle board (clip a rib/pass twixt some ribs). Great stuff as usual!

[@ED-2.0.9.]

Question: what was/are the concern(s) you were discussing with LB4L regarding backwards wadcutter use in alloy snubs? I had been kicking the idea around for a couple years of that old school approach being a "poor man's nyclad", even going so far as to consider powder coating some (for Wiafu's Scandium 360PD). But I had sidebarred off into trying to make the polymer ARX's work...

[@GunSam]

@@ED-2.0.9. Thank you. My only concern with backwards loaded wadcutters were due to internet rumor that the skirt would expand backwards and hit the forcing cone, which was silly and untrue. There's other concerns, the main one is that the backwards load was not from a load book, so we have no idea of what the pressure is, therefore testing them in a heavy steel .357 magnum revolver is safer than an alloy J-frame. My particle board is me trying to split the difference between rib and non rib hits. A real rib is much harder than particle board, but a rib miss is much softer.

[@Fudmottin]

@@GunSam You were well within pressure limits for 38 Special, IMO. No more than a very modest +P load. 147-gr RCBS mould # 82077 lists 3.5gr of Bullseye for a 38 Special cowboy action load. I haven't found specific 148gr LWC data, but 158-gr Speer LSWC lists 3.5gr of Bullseye also. So obviously you could go up a tad for your 148s. You still don't know the chamber pressure, but this is from published data. This is from the 2018 Alliant Powders guide. All the usual disclaimers apply.

[@GunSam]

@@Fudmottin The Hodgdon data lists the traditionally seated load I made as 11,800 CUP for 3.3 gr and 7,700 CUP for 2.7 gr- I used 3.0 gr. I have no idea what that is in PSI. I would assume that the backwards load would be in about the same range. Other powders with similar velocity show somewhere in the 15,000 range for PSI.

[@norby0418]

Since I retired from LE in 2006 my favorite SD load has been a cast lead double ended WC loaded to approximately 750 fps out of a 2” m642. Very accurate with moderate recoil.

[@williambeasley2582]

I had a friend make me these for armadillo back in the 1980s. They did an okay job with a 6 inch barrel 686 and a very good job with a + p powder load. I still have a few rounds left from then.

[@williambeasley2582]

Back in the 1980s I had a friend load me some reversad hollowbase wadcutters to shoot armadillo. This was with a 6 inch barrel a&w 686 and they worked great at up to 15 yards.

[@randallkelley3599]

Enjoy rewatching these at 4am Saturday morning! 👍

[@grrg1963]

I would like to see this test done with a 2 inch barrel at shorter ranges commonly experienced in self defense scenarios.

[@JBJHonez]

I've got some and plan to do my own and put it on my channel. I've read that most SD/HD ammo loses to much velocity in a snubby for it to perform correctly. Finding ammo loaded for "micro -short barrels" is really hard to find and they won't sell the bullets to relaters to load their own. Stop by my channel and see what I've got already if you like in the mean time.

[@perryvath7617]

I second that. Your bologna test are not baloney

[@aaronbuckmaster7063]

My mentor kept his 38 loaded with hand loaded inverted wad cutters. I wouldn’t want to be the one hit with those.

[@JBJHonez]

I wouldn't want to be hit with any bullet

[@YellowHammer26]

I carry the traditional wad cutter as my carry ammo in my old 38 spl. Have seen gelatin test where it performed very well. Lucky Gunner has a good article on the wad cutter.

[@GunSam]

I have seen the Lucky Gunner tests. They do pretty good tests on ammo. I would say that you are pretty well protected with wadcutter ammo.

[@CandidZulu]

Between the 200gr Super Police load and a LWC, I would take the LWC, for the reason that the LWC penetrates in a more straight path. The old LRN 200gr goes wildly in almost any direction. Makes it harder to hit what you try to destroy, like the hart or CNS. LWC is probably ideal for most snubbie revolvers. Easier to hit with than a jacketed bullet that needs much more speeed to perform.

[@Revolverman38]

@@CandidZulu I picked up a old model 36 S&W no dash and have been looking for a good carry wadcutter round. I just had a question, what does LWC stand for

[@CandidZulu]

@@Revolverman38 Lead Wad Cutter as far as I know. YOu can often see BB added on the end, and they are Bevel Base. Some are DBB, meaning double bevel base, some ohters are HB meaning hollow base (can't really cast them at home).

[@comeoncents3288]

@@Revolverman38 look up Buffalo Bore item 20C/20.

[@petrosspetrosgali]

It’s the giant bearing surface that produces the sweet close range accuracy. Any bullet that doesn’t obturate properly( expand to seal the gasses) will have poor accuracy.

[@lanedexter6303]

My experiments with this 40+ years ago indicated the issue is stability, some rounds being accurate, some keyholing. Now that I’ve retired, I may revisit this, paying special attention to performance from my 1 in 14 twist Python vs my 1 in 18-3/4 twist S&W. Today, with the wide variety of expanding bullet ammo available, the backward HBWC experiment is merely of academic interest.

[@rossgreenzweig]

I'm loving these wad cutter videos, thanks brother!!

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching!

[@willknowdoggs9595]

Thanks Sam. I wanted to load some hollow wad cutters backwards, but can't find them locally. Glad you did this video on the topic. I did pick up some HST Micro and like them. Looks like the backward wad cutter was made for skinny assailants.

[@GunSam]

Yeah lol, if someone my own size came at me i'd be scared they wouldn't work.

[@Fudmottin]

@@GunSam That's why they invented numbers greater than 3.3 ;-)

[@ea6871]

I have a bunch of the Federal 130 grain 38 special + p HST hollow point wadcutter. And ballistic gel testing seems to perform very well. This is a great review thanks for your time I love the water jug holder.

[@GunSam]

Thank you. The HST is actually pretty much a traditional hollow point bullet, just seated deeper. I tested it as well, huge expansion and a little less penetration than most, but overall pretty good. The interesting thing is just like a real wadcutter, the HST is roughly the same velocity in a 2" barrel as it is in a 4", which means it's very efficient.

[@ea6871]

@@GunSam that's awesome because I use it in a lcrx snub. I just picked up a lcrx in .327 fed mag, I am digging this thing like crazy! The ammo selection based on caliber convertibility seems never ending. I don't know what it is with this particular revolver but it came out of the factory with a incredible action my gun Smith cycled it a couple of times and said he couldn't do anything to improve it

[@GunSam]

@@ea6871 I don't own an LCR but I believe it has more of a real ratcheting mechanism like the S&W Bodyguard, which are different than traditional revolver hand to ratchet action. The .357 mag family has just as many ammo selections as the .327, but most people don't mention them. The .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 SPL, .357 Mag, .38 CBC Short can all be fired in a .357 Magnum revolver.

[@ea6871]

@@GunSam actually the LCRx is the hammer version of the lcr which I prefer even though you have a to train a little more to accommodate for the spur in pocket. I am old fashioned that way. Your right about the .357 convertability I am a huge fan of course. One thing I like about the. 327 out of a small light weight short barrel revolver is you have less blast and flash compared to a.357 in the same jundra. It's just more doable. But the velocity is still there and you have an extra round. You are also less prone to crimp jumping with the .327 Magnum, although it can still happen. The LCR 9mm and .357, really any light wight snub in these chamberings are more prone to crimp jump with full pressure loads.

[@GunSam]

@@ea6871 The crimp is never really the same based on cartridge but rather maker. I have use an impact hammer to test a ton of defensive ammo in .38 Special and 9mm, some .38 Special ammo took 300 whacks to get it to pull out, some took 3...Same for 9mm, some was crimped well and some not at all. I am not sure if a .327 would have less chance of that or not, but it would have a lot to do with who made the ammo.

[@slowpokebr549]

I've always had good luck with wadcutters. My old Smith prefers plain lead projectiles thank you. It's usually loaded with semi wadcutters or hollow point semi wadcutters when I can find them. That old pistol has ridden around in my truck for years. I'm a farmer and a rancher. It's the pistol I always seem to have when I need one. I can tell you from long experience that a wadcutter will shoot right through a cows skull. I can also tell you that I've shot cattle with much more powerful rounds and not had any better luck. It all comes down to shot placement.

[@fredrutledge3628]

Glad to see that you are out there, even when it is winter.

[@GunSam]

This was last winter, but dang our new winter season began on Halloween. Been snow on the ground since.

[@guypehaim1080]

A buddy of mine and I came up with a cartridge using Zero brand bullets backwards. The cup base expands easily. Out of a 4" barrel we averaged 1200 FPS when using 6 grains of Hercules Unique powder. We fired into water-filled polyethylene gallon milk jugs from 7 yards. The bullets expanded from .357" diameter to .73" diameter and expended all of their energy within the jug, leaving a slight dent outwards on the back of the jug. Another note about this round, it punched clean .38 holes through 2X4's.

[@normanmallory2055]

This test was really good .. Only the old timers of the 50's-60's were turning their wadcutters around and loading them backwards .. With a BHN of 8-9 those bullets are on the soft side .. I like a number of 15-18 BHN on full wadcutters .. Now myself with 56 years of being a handloader have never tried turning the bullets around and loading them backwards .. I mostly use them for target shooting and small game , i have to admit i do carry a cylinder full of wadcutters for personal protection off and on and i realize that bullet style does not meet FBI standards but i still carry them , i don't need fire breathing dragon magnum loads to stop any violent attack that i'm sure of ... Full wadcutters i have been away from for around 3 years and just in March this year i returned to them as they are so much fun to shoot ... Great test i enjoyed that one ..

[@Lakikano]

That reverse wad cutter could make a good special purpose ammunition for use in crowds. That said a handgun isn't such a good choice of weapon to use in a crowd.

[@stevekynard6658]

I loaded some of the reverse wadcutters about 35 or so years ago in a 357 over a max load of Herco. Thay were awesome. Deputy sherriff friend of mine asked me to load some for him. This was back when LEO's were still carrying revolvers.

[@crankybuzzard6867]

Thanks........ interesting results on both rounds!

[@mikunan]

You always have great tests .I wondered about these compared loadings ; but never saw it actually tested like you did. Thanks. Keep up the good stuff.

[@GunSam]

Thank you, thanks for watching. It was interesting how it turned out. I had several powder charges for both backwards and forward wadcutters, so I took the two that were close in velocity and compared them. That being said, the velocity was greater than I had expected.

[@SomervilleBob]

I like that you are out in the snow. Not a good-day only shooter.

[@GunSam]

6 months out of the year is often snow. If I didn't go out in it i'd never get to shoot lol.

[@edjecollins4141]

I'd like to see tests of these type of wadcutters in cap and ball revolvers

[@Bucky1836]

Round ball does better in cap and ball, or the Johnston and Dow, WCs are hard lead , soft left is. Better in cap and ball

[@edjecollins4141]

@@Bucky1836 I could cast them in soft lead. But I'm aware that round ball rounds do best in modern reproduction cap and ball revolvers. The rifling is set up for it.

[@CtrlAltRetreat]

@@edjecollins4141 Harrell has some good testing on conical vs ball up on his channel and i think I've seen Minnie ball tests up too. Give it a quick search

[@robertnation3077]

Good test! The rear facing load would be great for vermin & if I lived in a thin walled apartment I would consider it.

[@GunSam]

Thanks! That's true, a thin wall probably would slow it down quickly.

[@SCSlimBoiseID]

Quite interesting. We did similar testing with forward and backward-facing hollow-base wadcutters 40 years ago with similar results (except we didn't have a chronograph). That was around the time that HydraShock bullets started showing up on the handloading supply racks. They were essentially a hollow-nose (instead of hollow-base) swaged lead wadcutter with a post in the middle of the hollow nose. Nice demo. Stay safe out there. Cheers.

[@trashcanpossum230]

I would be curious to see the same test with Berry's plated hbwc.

[@saltcreekammo]

I bet the plating helps with more penetration and controlling expansion. I'm very curious as well.

[@grantgarrod2232]

There's another video on KZbin of a shooter testing the Berry's plated wadcutters in two different 3" revolvers, velocities in the 780 - 800fps range. In ballistics gel, the bullets penetrated 19" - 22", but with zero expansion. Tests of this type have been done by many dozens of shooters & reloaders over several decades. Virtually every one clearly shows that, for a reliable & high degree of expansion at standard velocities, bare dead-soft lead bullets are always the best. These are ideal as sedate plinking or defensive snubby loads, but not really suited to be turned up into the hot-rod magnum range.

[@claytonblanchard4451]

In the 1970s I carried hollow based wadcutters loaded backwards. It's like a super hollow point. You had to hand load to get these.

[@gilbertoportillo6650]

The traditional wadcutters will hurt period and that's no baloney!

[@GunSam]

I wouldn't have a way of knowing if wadcutters would hurt more than anything else, but if they were slow enough they would probably be felt more.

[@kentwilliams4152]

Years ago I was loading a Speer HBWC on top of 3.0 grains of Bullseye. It proved to be noticeably more accurate than factory wadcutters in my S&W Model - 14 K-38 6”. I believe that was because of S&W’s slow rate of twist which is 1 rotation in 18 3/4”. I decided to try a reverse HBWC with that load, but it was very inaccurate. I thought that the inaccuracy was because of having loaded the wadcutter backwards. A while later I inadvertently discovered that Speer HBWC’s have a significantly smaller nose diameter than they do in the skirt. That was the reason for the inaccuracy so I loaded some cast HBWC’s reversed that were uniform in diameter and SUCCESS. They were devastating on Jack Rabbits, significantly more so than when the wadcutters were loaded in the normal manner. Bottom line is while Speer HBWC’s are very accurate when loaded base first, but not when loaded nose first. Caution: Loading a HBWC base first will raise chamber pressure. I loaded mine with the base even with the case mouth on top if progressively heavier charges of Bullseye. I started with 2.5 grains, then 2.7 grains and finally 3.0 grains. I sincerely recommend that you work up as I did, and if you ever experience sticky extraction STOP and fire no more of that load.

[@Ford360CID]

Sam this experiment is something that was quite a stir back it the 80's and there have been many attempts to make these hollow based wad cutters work effectively, other's have made failed attempts to make them work, such as pushing them too fast causing the skirts to blow up as it leaves the barrel, because of the very soft lead these wad cutters are made from their construction and design will not physically allow them to do anything other than be very accurate at moderate velocities, your attempt was quite successful in making a good point by demonstrating the accuracy potential of these bullets as intended, you proved that the front of the bullets had a better advantage vs the back wards method thou it did work!! how ever the results were great expansion and very low penetration, some thing like this maybe useful for say small game, and i think after they tryed this method for their 38 snubbies they pretty much gave up on it and went back to traditional duty ammo, but those experiments then gave defense ammo makers a great idea in designing a self defense round that would be effective and still meet FBI specifications for a defense ammo for law enforcement and civilian use. great video Sam as always.

[@GunSam]

Thank you. And this test was rather random and luck, as well as knowing my powder fairly well. I was expecting less velocity than I got, but was pleased to get what I did get. The traditional wadcutters with 3.3 gr gave me about 850 fps and the backwards gave me 800 with the same charge, but I also had traditional loaded with 3.0 gr and it's velocity matched the 3.3 backwards, so I used them to compare and got lucky. I also tested some 202 gr yesterday through the chronograph, I loaded some with 4.4 gr Titegroup and a magnum primer in a magnum case and got 850 fps! That's almost like a .45 auto with different sectional density.

[@Ford360CID]

wow!! 850fps from a 202gn with 4.4gns of tite group is quite awsome.@@GunSam

[@ED-2.0.9.]

@@Ford360CID @ either of you guys: Is there a reason *not* to still seat them flush when loading them bassackwards? Thinking that coupled with a finishing roll crimp (ala the Fed HST Micros) would improve handling and chambering. TIA, E! edit: interested in this as an option as seemingly SWCHP's don't open at snubby velocities. Non-plus P anyway (to the numerous YouToob contents on the subject).

[@Ford360CID]

@@ED-2.0.9. your non jacketed soft hollow points should open up at 800fps or less, tn9outdoors did a segment on non +p 38spl soft hollow points an was quite successful.

[@ED-2.0.9.]

@@Ford360CID I'll search for that. I presume you are referencing the lead semi wadcutter hollow points (ala "FBI load" style). In the vein of GunSam's vid here though, I'ma wondering how slowly a reverse set hollow base wadcutter could be lobbed and still reliably open nicely. Lowest recoil and still achieving expansion I guess is what's piqued my curiosity.

[@WhoWouldWantThisName]

I'm actually curious what you would get if you just loaded the backwards wadcutter load with less powder. My thinking is this: If you push that soft lead bullet slower it may be slower to expand and actually penetrate more. You would have less energy, but you might get a better wound cavity.

[@JBJHonez]

I've got a box of these and will try that out on my channel. I'm gonna do 3 loads, low, med, max-ish and see how they perform along with velocity. It's hard finding load data for snubbies and all the loaded stuff is sold out. I've read doctors notes about how must JHP regardless of caliber didn't perform most of the time, it would hit bone and deflect around. And that most people just carry wad cutters for SD/HD in their snubbies due to the velocity of the short barrel was wasting the pricey JHP and such.

[@White000Crow]

6”-8” of penetration with a 3/4” bullet seems ideal to me, this is dumping its energy so much faster then a standard wadcutter.

[@WhoWouldWantThisName]

@@White000Crow 6"-8" could be great depending on circumstances. Assuming you are hitting them from the front and they don't have on too much clothing that will clog up the cavity and otherwise limit penetration THEN it might be fine. Most of the people wanting 16" or such of penetration are thinking worst case scenario. I'm not in that camp either nor am I in LE, so I don't need all that penetration and maybe 10" or 12", possibly even less, would be good for me.

[@WhoWouldWantThisName]

@@JBJHonez Sorry I just saw this response. I'm curious how your testing turned out.

[@White000Crow]

@@WhoWouldWantThisName I usually would load some hot 357 in 110gr XTPs or 9mm+p 90gr XTPs. Both of these load would explode a gallon jug of water but not go much past that. I could just imagine the hydrostatic shock that these loads achieve on flesh. The 9mms I caught folded the leaves all the way around the back of the base.

[@stonegiant4]

I was wondering how the backwards loaded wadcutter would expand. Thanks discount Paul harrell.

[@jalan8171]

Way back when I reloaded ammo, I cooked up a reliable reverse wadcutter load geared for my snubbies. I tested them for hydrostatic shock on water jugs and am thankful that I never had to use them in a combat situation. Didn't worry about accuracy so much beyond 25 yards given anticipated circumstances.

[@GunSam]

I have to wonder how different bullets would react. This is my only test with them, maybe a plated or coated would do better.

[@highplains7777]

@@GunSam Close to the same amount of expansion with deeper penetration? Maybe load some of the lead WC's backwards but with less powder than you did in this video to the same effect? With the current ammo shortage this might be a cool topic to revisit as you can still find enough components to reload wadcutters (if you search) but good luck finding commercially loaded ammo.

[@Me2Lancer]

Thanks Sam. Plenty of reasons to stock up on some wadcutter ammo.

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching! The wadcutter ammo isn't too bad no matter which way loaded.

[@Me2Lancer]

@@GunSam Had a shipmate with a Colt Gold Cup 1911. All he ever used in it was wadcutter.

[@GunSam]

@@Me2Lancer I think Colt and S&W both had semi auto .38 Special pistols designed around the .38 Special wadcutter.

[@BJWeed1]

I would like to see the results on the forward facing hollow-point wad-cutters on the gelatin blocks

[@GunSam]

USCCA has a test on that very thing on their channel.

[@norby0418]

This has been topic of discussion and debate for a least the last 50 years.

[@MPGunther1]

Yup! Either way, That's going to leave a mark

[@dahdahbeautiful5150]

Good video Sam not a lot of penetration but a whole lot expansion wow can't wate to see what else you got in mind 👏👍💯

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@jeffkelly5972]

One of the best channels on KZbin I have to subscribe.

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@williambeasley2582]

Inverted hollowbase wadcutters work great on armadillo at up to 20 yards have a great day and a better tomorrow

[@harleypoppitypop3817]

Been looking forward to this video! Thank you!

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching!

[@n.b.2164]

Great demonstration. I guess I'll be buying traditional wadcutters for my snub guns 2". Maybe hollow points for the long barrels 4".

[@theochrist9453]

the reversed wadcutters seem to me like the perfect home defense ammo, good expansion, not to worry about over penetration , what more do you want ?

[@motorbandit7]

Put that 148 grn.HBWC On top of 9 grn. of Unique,see what that does@ 1300 fps. My LEO's called them" Dragon Cutters"

[@The_sinner_Jim_Whitney]

#1, 2, 3, or 4 Buckshot. Also, not to go to prison if you ever have to use them to defend yourself. I’m not saying it should be this way, but it is; using anything other than commercially available ‘normal’ ammo in a defensive firearm is inviting a LOT of potential trouble that you may or may not be able to come away from.

[@KibatheMalinois]

@@The_sinner_Jim_Whitney Yip for self defence just go with standard off the shelf ammunition. It's especially worse if the perp/victim dies whether you loaded the round yourself or "enhanced" it in any way. It could be said in court that you made the round with intent to kill a man and you will be tried and possibly sentenced as such.

[@The_sinner_Jim_Whitney]

@@KibatheMalinois Unfortunately, yes. Fortunately, however, modern ammunition is AMAZINGLY good. I don’t carry anything but the Underwood 125-gr. .38+P Gold Dot style ammo, and it performs as well from a snub as a lot of .357 loads did 30 years ago, and it’s just one of dozens of examples of downright amazing factory loads available in every reasonable caliber these days.

[@jeremiahjohnson9908]

Back in the early seventies these were used by law enforcement in the south, they called them "dum'dums".

[@SW-ii5gg]

I think that was also the name of old surplus soft points from before the Hogue agreement that people drilled out for hunting also.

[@retiredboxingref7620]

Carried the same!

[@m.loughlin1915]

Not original. The term "dumdum" is from the 1880s in British ruled India, where it is said, some of the Brits assigned to an Armory at a location called Dumdum got the idea to bore holes in bullet noses to insure expansion. The term is the actual name of an actual location in India. Just a bit of trivia for ya!

[@jeremiahjohnson9908]

@@m.loughlin1915 ....Thank you for that bit of trivia ML...always interesting to learn the history.

[@Lakikano]

That forward facing wad cutter was really impressive, more penetration than a lot of hollow points with similar expansion. I wonder now about plated was cutter .357, I bet those would be wicked.

[@GunSam]

The problem with .357 Mag in wadcutters is that they are not typically more powerful than .38 special wadcutters because what's available in ammunition or load data information is zero. One would have to more or less use 9mm powder charges as the bullet would seat deep enough to be similar to a 9mm, but it would be difficult to confirm. If it was done i'd expect to see a 148 gr doing 1,000 FPS in a 4" barrel.

[@gregprice7562]

Nice video . Now im tepted to try some in my henry 16" barrel carbine

[@GunSam]

Thanks. I doubt these particular loads would gain much if any velocity in a rifle barrel as the powder charge is pretty much burning up 90% of the powder in a handgun as it's a low charge and fast powder.

[@mr.thickey1820]

Hey, Gun Sam! As I am a subscriber, YOU are becoming one of my MOST FAVORED gun & ammo testors! You talk clearly & concisely with NO nasty language!! You're one nice fella! Could you please consider testing a .58 Minnie ball in a black powder gun for power & penetration, shooting them frontwards AND backwards?! The standard Minnie ball, over 500 grains, is a very devestating round under any "normal" conditions. But BACKWARDS it would be enormously devestating!! Pure lead of course. You could use a Pedersoli Howdad .58 double barrel pistol plus a rifle. I used to shoot these Minnie balls into Red Oak & while they didn't penetrate very far (dry Red Oak is like granite!!), they'd expand to about 1&1/4"!!! Talk about knockdown power! Thanks for your fine efforts today! "Ach du lieber, mein schatz"! "Gesundheit"!!!!!

[@GunSam]

Thank you. I don't have any experience or equipment to do anything with BP or minie balls, but I do plan on repeating the test here with plated inverted WC's. Should expand slower.

[@keithoades5516]

I have done this test myself and we ran across a problem of the projectile "skirting", IE, the guts blowing out and leaving a lead tube in the barrel. Very dangerous/ embarrassing if it happens. The cure for this was to use a gas check on the bottom of the projectile. The side benifit to this is you can drive the projectile a lot faster and even use them in .357 mag. Also this means more kinetic energy and more mushroom!

[@daleweller5193]

The original hydro shock was a 148 tuned backwards with a sud to help expansion.

[@kentwilliams4152]

Years ago I was loading a Speer HBWC on top of 3.0 grains of Bullseye. It proved to be noticeably more accurate than factory wadcutters in my S&W Model - 14 K-38 6”. I believe that was because of S&W’s slow rate of twist which is 1 rotation in 18 3/4”. I decided to try a reverse HBWC wuth that load

[@DoctorMangler]

Awesome video, thanks a ton. I just got 2k of those in jacketed and wanted to load up both ways in my .357. I like your penetration testing methods and I really like your overall presentation.

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@balancedfordaylight1]

id be interested to see if increasing the velocity would increase the penetration on the backwards loaded wad cutter or if it would just come apart .....

[@GunSam]

Possibly both, the only things is that these are the max charge so one would have to push them even more than that. That gets risky with hand loading.

[@mcburcke]

Back in the day, most police detectives who carried .38Spl. snubbies loaded them with wadcutters because they were known to be very effective at close range. Another favorite with uniformed cops as a backup was a .44Spl. also with wadcutters. Both rigs were very common, but with the advent of semi-auto pistols these revolver loads just sort of faded away. That doesn't mean they were not very effective, though.

[@Graydog-sx6le]

Expansion was impressive. Better than I thought. Wadcutters are not easy to find where I live and shop but I’m going to keep my eyes open for some. I’d like to try some at the range. Thanks for the good video.

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching! I can't recall if I have ever seen wadcutter ammo where I shop either as I never look for it. It's probably not there. Lucky gunner and Midwayusa both have some 50 round wadcutter boxes for less than $20.

[@brucebarnes8138]

Good video The backward hollow base wadcutter is only good for in the house. You are less likely to hit someone in the next room. I like using regular hollow base wadcutter in light revolvers. Low recoil with good expansion for a low velocity bullet.

[@bertkilborne6464]

That's a huge advantage to revolvers, being able to load bullets like that or any other projectile you might choose

[@GunSam]

It's something that's not talked about. Even minuet things matter. For instance, the old classic law enforcement load, 125 gr semi jacketed hollow point .357 Magnum, 1,450 FPS from a 4" barrel...that load, no matter what set of data you look at is awesome. Some charts show 96% one shot stops, other charts show the lowest failure to stop based on actual incidents, some show this or some show that, but the point is it's super effective. Now onto today, in an attempt to recreate this effectiveness, now there is the .357 Sig. It's a 125 gr JHP (not semi jacketed) moving at...1,450 FPS! But from all accounts I do not see it having as much effectiveness to stop a threat as the .357 Magnum. Same load right? No, because the semi jacketed .357 Mag revolver round fragments, it's like a grenade upon impact, it's just more effective. Now onto my point...because of revolvers being able to load different bullets, you always, I mean always see a lower energy to effectiveness ratio compared to other cartridges. Take for instance 9mm VS .38 Special+P. You might have that 9mm averaging 375 ft lbs energy, while that .38 Special+P averages 250 ft lbs energy. But in statistics, there are LESS failures to stop with the .38 Special. And this my friend, goes back to the .38 Special in question here being a SEMI jacketed hollow point. I think in that 9mm VS .38 Special+P example I gave, what matters there is not only does the .38 Special often have that soft lead tip and large hollow cavity, but 9mm always has tiny hollow cavities, takes more energy to expand.

[@bertkilborne6464]

@@GunSam Sure 'nuff - Revolvers don't have to deal with feeding issues and it leaves a lot of latitude in projectile selection, which compensates for a revolver's reduced capacity, if someone makes the right choice. It used to be discussed in magazine articles before the internet but rarely gets mentioned today Back when VanHalen was a new band - LOL

[@keithstewart934]

Wadcutters are a great self defense load for the recoil sensitive...or anyone for that matter. I've heard 158 grain hollow point semi-wadcutters referred to as 'man stoppers'.

[@876mpr]

I’d like to get my hands on an old Lyman 358156 hollow point mould. Photos I’ve seen of them are probably at least .70” diameter, but the hp isn’t so deep and will leave a little more shank for better penetration.

[@stonegiant4]

Loaded up some of these. The lead is so soft I have to flare the case mouth much more than usual to accommodate it. Unfortunately it doesn't hit point of aim for my gun. I'll have to send you some speer HBWC to load up like this to make a comparison. Those work for me quite well. I wonder if they'd deform anything like the Hornady. Either way thanks for your effort.

[@GunSam]

I have thought about trying this again. Multiple people have requested Berry's plated bullets.

[@stonegiant4]

@@GunSam I've personally done the water jug test on berry's HBWC and I found that it offered absolutely no expansion. Perhaps your recipe is hotter than mine, as well as I only have a snubby to test with.

[@DrgnSlyr]

Cold swaged factory lead is very soft. You can cast it harder to get better penetration.

[@salvadorsalustiano5911]

Thank you again, Sam! I wonder what the inverted-load penetration would be with magnum loads...

[@GunSam]

Probably a lot of fragmentation if the velocity could actually increase at all.

[@Master-AGN]

Interesting video. I wonder what would happen if you put hot glue in the backward facing wadcutter cavity. Even put a little rounded nose on the front.

[@tinsoldier5621]

Good review. Personally I like the expansion and minimal penetration of the reversed load. I could use that in home defense or in a public situation without worrying about over penetration. Thanks for the upload

[@828enigma6]

I loaded up a batch of 38 Special wc backwards some years ago. Recall they burst the first jug, penetrated into #2, some marks on 3. When loaded to 357 velocities, they basically exploded jug #1, with no damage to #2. The bullet shattered as well. I do not know the hardness of the wc. If you wanted to persue the backward wc, you'd need a tougher alloy. I think I used ZERO brand slugs but it really doesn't make a difference, as this was 30 years ago.

[@GunSam]

I have thought about trying the Berry's plated HB wadcutters as there might be just enough hardness on that plating to slow expansion, but then again I don't know. Either way I should be able to hot rod them and prevent some smoking.

[@828enigma6]

I should have noted these were fired through a revolver with a 4" barrel, 357 Magnum.

[@livincincy4498]

Interesting video on an Urban Legend cartridge. The Full WC is typically a slow moving target round. So you eliminated that issue. You pushed them at a healthy 38 Velocity. I am not sure you can push them much more without issues. The expansion of both is interesting. I never thought the standard loading would expand. The inverted loading has always been rumored to expand good. You confirmed that to be true. Penetration is a topic that is difficult to discuss without emotions getting into the topic. I think if you loaded some with Trail Boss, The Preferred Powder of Sherifs & Outlaws, you would get clear 'Man Stopper' damage to your bologna pack and the water jugs would explode into flames... The Semi WC has been more favored for hunting and longer distances. I have some Speer soft lead SWC with hollow points. I do load them with Trail Boss... I assume they are the best man stopper do to the reason above. I have only shot paper with them. Berry's makes a Hollow Base WC that is plated. I have never shot them. You may not be able to get enough Trail Boss into them to max their velocity as a Man Stopper... interesting idea to test them against the bologna pack. This is what is so much fun with a 38... Play with a new bullet and see what happens. A lifetime of challenges.

[@GunSam]

I pushed them mid range for charge with the forward facing. Load book says 2.7 gr to 3.3 with Titegroup and I used 3.0 gr. Backwards facing I used 3.3 gr and got the same velocity. I have used Trail Boss but my understanding is that powder is slower than some, I have never chronographed it though. I used to use somewhere around 4.0 gr of Trail Boss is I remember right and load 158 SCW's as well.

[@livincincy4498]

@@GunSam I have found Trail Boss works good loaded nearly 100% full in the case. I am not sure you can get high pressure or velocity with it. It is nice for what it is and for Sherifs & Outlaws.

[@TheJurgisRud]

I wonder how the plated HBWC bullets loaded backwards would perform in the jug-or-not. I have a few hundred Barry's plated wadcutters but they are solid base. I load 38/357 for a magnum revolver too. Maybe I can get some plated HBWC's and do a fun ladder test to find optimal expansion velocity. I can also paypal you the funds to purchase the Barry's HBWC if you're interested in testing them. Just let me know and I'll send it over.

[@GunSam]

I have tested solid lead wadcutters before, that's where I got the load data for the backwards loaded, simply loaded the HB backwards to the same case depth as a solid. The only issue with the Berry's would be if I seated them out a little bit backwards, i'd have to be careful as I don't have a way currently of crimping them. I could seat them flush but the velocity would be low as they would be seated flush with much less powder. Seated out a bit making room for more powder is more ideal, especially if pushed a little hotter than the lead ones. I certainly would test them if I had them, but I might need to obtain a taper crimp die for .38 Special, or find another method to crimp them.

[@TheJurgisRud]

@@GunSam I use the Lee Taper Crimp Die (#90781) purchased from MidwayUSA. Cheap and gets the job done just fine.

[@GunSam]

@@TheJurgisRud I actually do have a method that works, but its tricky. I use a 9mm decapping die with the pin removed, only issue is I have to be careful not to go too deep on it or it releases all taper tension.

[@rorybybee5937]

That was an interesting video. The difference in performance between the traditional wadcutters and backwards loaded wadcutters was an eye opener. The traditional wadcutters would be the better choice for self defence.

[@morganhay859]

I thought I was the only one who loaded them backwards.

[@charlesphillips5906]

Good test. Great results at 25 yards with inverted HBWC. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I seem to remember the inverted gave keyholing and poor accuracy. But I was using a Chief’s Special with 1-7/8” barrel. That may have been the problem. I agree with you that there are better rounds available. I carry Speer 135 Gold Dot Short Barrel. But back when these were popular our only other choice was 158 grain LRN.

[@GunSam]

Thank you. That's interesting, I will have to snub nose test them and see what I get for accuracy with that.

[@leeman3575]

I liked the frozen water jug test. I would imagine frozen water jugs would be similar to cement blocks. Great video!

[@GunSam]

Thank you. It was almost pykrete!

[@FireTrailPCT]

I'm jealous of you having a 686. I want one in the worst way but don't have the cash at the moment. I actually want the 586 (blued) version, because it would pair nicely with my Model 36 blued .38.

[@williambeasley2582]

Keep looking at the pawnshop s gun store s and estate sales. Sometimes us old farts will take pity on you young bucks and simply want one to go to a good home. Good luck.

[@FireTrailPCT]

@@williambeasley2582...at what age does a 50 year old go from young buck to old fart? I feel like an old fart.

[@CaptVanO]

Check out GunBroker dot com. Lots of great deals there.

[@freezerfreezer9097]

Throw a few pieces of linotype in your lead to get it about 3 more brinell and recast. Then load them backwards... you'll notice a big change... It's what makes casting fun...

[@GunSam]

I don't cast bullets.

[@harrygoodhorn2825]

I think a ballistic jell test would reveal a huge hydroshock value to the reverse hollow based wadcutter and show it to be a viable home defence round.

[@joshford7828]

Can you repeat this test with a hollow base backwards wad cutter made out of wheel weight instead of pure lead. I think the tougher alloy will net better penetration and reliable expansion. I dont shoot pure lead out of any revolver unless they are bunny fart pifter loads.

[@Revolverman38]

Great video Sam. I came across an old but in very good condition a model 36 snubbie no dash, dates back to 1973 but anyway would you carry the front facing wadcutter in my ole 36

[@thereindeertherabbitthebat592]

I like to load HBWC's for my grandads old Colt police positive in 38S&W. Lotta fun & very accurate. Haven't tried loading them backwards yet. I always figured they wouldn't have enough velocity to expand bc the cartridge is already loaded pretty mild but after seeing your test I'm second guessing it... 🤔 Awesome stuff, thanks.

[@jaykay9695]

Hey, nice rundown. If you could re-do this test with a 2" of less barrel that would be more benifical. "In the day" and even now, I would think most would want the reverse wadcutter in a small revolver. Regardless please re-do the test in a short barrel..I think you will get two jugs, but less expansion - who knows until you re-do lol. Thanks for your channel.

[@professorpewpuew]

Honestly, I thought the backwards loaded wad-cutter would do a little bit better in the penetration department. I imagine if it was running slower, it would retard over-expansion and go deeper. Sure, it is mean expansion, but I wouldn't want to have to shoot through anything or have to shoot through any body part that is sturdy. But it seems straight loaded wadcutters are still a good bet. I wonder how these would do out of a snubbie.

[@GunSam]

In a snubby I'd say there probably wouldn't be a ton of difference as the powder charges are so low we might lose less than 50 FPS. I did another test with plated wadcutters and the results were the opposite, almost no expansion. I hear the Speer HBWC is harder than these Hornady's but softer than plated. Been meaning to try those bit they aren't available anywhere.

[@MrTerrydwilliams]

There is nothing wrong with 7 to 9" penetration in a face to face situation, such as most of us would be likely to have. Law enforcement is a different matter.

[@tatsuhirosatou5513]

It really depends in my testing with atomic factory loaded backwards wadcutters they hit the bottom of my 20" water trap hard enough to leave slightly mark on the leading edge of the bullet where it hits bottom.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Cup-forward wadcutters would have to be sourced from some pretty hard cast material, around BHN 22-24. Would be fun to see the results of that.

[@GunSam]

I think that hardness might represent a plated bullet.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

You might be familiar with Oregon Trail Laser cast bullets. Those are rated 24 bhn.

[@barrykarpowich731]

Really a good test Really good

[@SouthernYankee679]

I seat reverse wad cutters exactly like forward wad cutters , flush with the case. No need to extend the bullet past the case mouth. Especially with a gun like a 686 or a gun chambered in 357.

[@jshicke]

So, a big bloody crater but no penetration. Should be easy to track them down after that, assuming they did not kill you after that shot.

[@GunSam]

I tested another round recently that was similar. It was the Underwood Maximum expansion ammo. Flowers huge but slows down immediately. It happened to be in 9mm not .38 Special, but they make it in a .38 Special too.

[@jshicke]

@@GunSam ahhh, The Underwood ammo. Yes. I have heard similar reviews. High velocity, excellent expansion, but as you pointed out, it slows down quickly. Good news, I suppose, is that all the energy dumps into the target. Wonder if penetration would increase with a slight reduction in velocity?

[@bowman321123]

Sam, another great informative video I like the addition of the Jug or Not box, thanks for posting. That beard is working for you.,,

[@GunSam]

Thank you, the box takes away some stress as losing a bullet is so much more unlikely with the box. Side veers were a big thing in the past. IDK what the beard will do, but even with it people think i'm younger. Most wouldn't believe I was conceived in the last year of the '70's :)

[@mkshffr4936]

I would love to see you load up some front facing WCs at higher velocities (full pressure up to +p) to see how much velocity affects performance.

[@GunSam]

I recently uploaded a video with Buffalo Bore wadcutters, the velocity up about what a +P would be. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oofEmJqZopl4nc0&t

[@firestorm8471]

a shot to the face with either will be instant lights out... this is the round I carry in my snubby but I fill the hollow with silicone rubber

[@GimmeDaBacon]

It dumped a lot of energy quickly as a self defense round if it’s not hitting body armor it’s a great round I like it

[@themalhama9129]

My grandfather always used to tell me when I was a child if you're shooting someone with a 38 spl and you really wana do some damage remember to use wad cutters.

[@craigbenz4835]

Interesting. Adding the CAOL and powder and charge weights would have been nice. Oddly Speer doesn't have load data for the 148 gr. LHBWC in their 15th ed. They do through the 14th ed.

[@GunSam]

I had listed in a pinned comment the load data. You must have missed it.

[@zorgath420]

Dang!! That reverse wad cutter was the size of a 12 gauge slug after expansion😮

[@AjackLee4]

Could we also see this test with the .32S&W Long?

[@GunSam]

Possibly. I hadn't even thought of that but I do have a .32 die set.

[@AjackLee4]

@@GunSam That'd be awesome. I'd also be interested in Hardcast wadcutters flipped. They may get more penetration.