39 - Elevator Shunt Trip - Introduction to Fire Alarms

[@brianhogan433]

This is all gold for people learning. Thank you for making these

[@matthewfiedler2357]

I know you probably won't get as many likes or views as the more popular videos on youtube, but for the people who watch this video and really appreciate what you are explaining, it means a lot. Just a headsup, but a 2-phase panel is not a common panel. 1-phase and 3-phase are a lot more common.

[@robbsutube]

perhaps just a misnomer - any single phase 220-240VAC in the USA is yes nominally called single phase - 220volt, but under the skin - uses line to line phases (2 phases). we all know and often misuse terminology - much like a 2x4 is actually 1-1/2x 3-1/2 - Very few commercial or industrial motors use line to ground power as they are extremely inefficient - just to let those who are in the learning curve also understand this moniker.

[@paolopigini.c]

Very well explained. Thank you.

[@austinbryan4040]

Fantastic explanation

[@Dime_Bar]

In the UK we have the lifts drop to the ground floor and then stays out of use on a fire, unless there is a fire on the ground floor lift lobby then the lift drops to the 1st floor. And we don't normally have sprinklers in the lift shafts.

[@kevin11ta]

Joe, keep the videos going. Great stuff!

[@Dredpath1]

Great explanation, Joe! I feel that shunt trips are death traps, because if patrons or the FD is in the elevator and the shunt trip goes, your screwed.

[@JoeKlochan]

I don't disagree. I'm just not sure how often they're setup to have a battery lower the car to the floor upon loss of power. I don't think I've ever seen that buy thay doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[@RB-xv4si]

I guarantee you that’s not how it’s set up. If the shunt trip activates and cuts power to the motor, there is a system in place that allows the elevator to drop down to the closest floor and open its doors (which stay open) so the occupants can get out. Elevator safety is a huge deal and require current permits and safety inspections. You can’t possibly so naive to think that elevator engineers haven’t thought about this potential issue.

[@kylehill1523]

@@JoeKlochan Why don't lifts have USP backups? There exist whole house battery backups so why can't elevators have individual backups to be used?

[@aberg94]

When you say the MR101 couldn't be controlled by your fire alarm panel, could you not just use one of the alarm relays directly off the panel itself? Or even install a certified relay module designed for that same brand of panel as a dedicated zone? They could trip your MR101 on the 18-24 input, as many of them especially on the programmable SLC loops offer 24v out. In my mind this offers several benefits, such as being able to have that as a dedicated relay trip off the panel itself, or instead using the relay module to have an addressable zone for that MR101 trip, making it easier for identification and troubleshooting in the future. Not to mention, if you planned on using all three devices (smoke, heat, sprinkler) as your input combined as one for an input, (assuming you meant in series) then if one of the devices failed then your whole setup is no good. This method would have a better chance of working if you had a dedicated relay off the panel itself. In my experience, the less relays or extra modules in between your source and your destination will always be the better choice especially when it comes to life safety. Less things that can fail. Otherwise it would be identical to how you explained. Hot lead off 120v breaker through C/NO on the MR101 out, Neutral straight through to Shunt, and 24v in from fire panel directly as an addressable zone. Cut out the FRM and not have to worry about it failing.

[@gandalf651]

I love the content and explanation in this video. The only thing I didn't like is I could hear you swallow, but that's my own personal issue 🙂. This was a great video.

[@jacobb554]

Hey Joe, love the videos. question! couldn't you just use a 24V power supply (example: FACP aux power that fires on heat alarm) that has one leg act as a switch leg between the C and NO of the FRM-1, and connects to the 0 and 24 volt side of the high voltage relay, then just run your hot and neutral from the breaker to the shunt with one leg as a switch though the high voltage relay C and NO? that way, when the FRM 1 goes into alarm and the relay switches, the high voltage relay receives 24V and that allows the 120V to pass thru to the shunt ?

[@JoeKlochan]

Yeah, you definitely could do that and it would be a better way to do it. The reason I rarely see anyone do it that way is that the elevator room is not always near the FACP, so pulling that 24 volts would be difficult. What you're saying makes sense, there's just an extra cost. If you scroll down in the comments you'll see someone mention that the way I show isn't to code because the 120 power isn't limited by anything other than the breaker, and so it shouldn't be on our relay. In your example, that wouldn't be an issue because the control voltage is 24 volts. I think the typical limiting factor is people not wanting to install the aux power supply or pull wire back to the panel.

[@garethwillmott4234]

Joe- do you have code info stating that pit sprinklers shouldn't need a heat for shunting? I always hear this bit getting thrown around but have never found any code backing it up in NFPA or ASME... Thanks!

[@JoeKlochan]

No, I don't. I don't know if that would be more likely to be in NFPA or in the elevator code. It seems like every time I do an elevator final something has changed though.

[@miguelbernabe753]

Question , I’m having some issues with some door holders , the system we use is Honeywell MRF-1 and a PAM-1 relay to control the door holders power voltage for release. Correct me if I’m wrong please . The 120v coming from breaker will enter T10(comm) and yellow terminal from PAM-1 , the black terminal from the PAM-1 to T8(NO). Blue terminal from PAM-1 to door holder and white (neutral)from PAM-1 to door holder as well. I know it might be confusing but if it makes a bit sense your help would be much appreciate.

[@JoeKlochan]

I think I'm following what you're saying, and if so, this sounds like it should work.

[@GS-ge7pu]

If you have to install a heat detector within 24 inches. Would you have to install the smoke detector within 24 inches of the sprinkler?

[@Jlgarner1971]

What program are you using to draw out circuits? FRM image, etc..

[@Jlgarner1971]

What app are you using with all the icons, relay, smoke detector, etc?

[@JoeKlochan]

I drew them with Microsoft paint

[@Jlgarner1971]

Let me know if you can send that as a file, how much? Send me a Venmo or Zelle. Would make my fire alarm bible waaay better.

[@PRISIONERODELAMOR100]

Hello Joe, My situation is cl8se to your explanation but with the difference on the shunt trip relay My Electrician gave me 2 kegs One is black labeled LINE and a blue labeled Load. I connected the line (BLACK CABLE) to my potter Relay com. and my Load (Blue CABLE) to my potter Relay NO. I also use a 24vdc relay with a spst input and I connected the COM. And the NO to a minute module with a resistor across. My problem is that the relay Blowout

[@JoeKlochan]

Your Potter probably isn't rated for the current that the shunt trip breaker is drawing. If you watch the video again, pay attention to when I explain why I'm using the MR-101. You can use your Potter relay (a new one) to trip another relay that can handle higher current. Your load would run through that relay instead of the Potter one.

[@PRISIONERODELAMOR100]

@@JoeKlochan thanks for replying to me, but my problem is that I wire everything like your diagram but the ONLY difference between yours and mine is the mine doesn't have a neutral going to the shunt trip relay I have the wire call LOAD remember because my LINE IS THE HOT POWER so where do I put the LINE on your diagram??.

[@JoeKlochan]

@@PRISIONERODELAMOR100 it doesn't sound like your situation is that similar to mine. First, what is your 24 volt relay doing? Are you using 24 volts for anything? It's possible to run 24 volts through your Potter relay and then activate the MR-101 that way. Then your line would go to the common of your MR-101 and your load would go to NO of your MR-101. I'm not sure that's what you're doing but it could be and it would definitely work, you just need to pull 24 volts from somewhere in that case. I'm my drawing, the LINE would obviously be the black wire coming out of the breaker box, and the LOAD would be the red wire going to the shunt trip breaker.

[@PRISIONERODELAMOR100]

@@JoeKlochan the only difference between your mr101 and the one that I have is that the one that I have is power it by 24 volt which I am getting the power from my NAC circuits in a program that want to be constant power and the way that I wire is hot power I went to Common on my relay module and my line I came out of my normally open then I put my relay which is the mr101 and it connected to my miniature module just to monitor my relay and that's how I'm getting my breaker to blow out so on yours you are powering the mr101 from the fire relay module on mine I'm getting a separate power

[@JoeKlochan]

I'm not totally following you. I guess the best I can offer is that your 120 volts shouldn't be passing through your Potter relay in your scenario. Since you're using 24 volts, run that through your Potter relay and use it to turn on your MR-101. Then your LINE would go to common of your MR-101 and your LOAD would go to NO of your MR-101. The downside of doing it that way is you now need two monitoring points, one to monitor that the 120 volts is on (which you'll need a neutral and another relay) and one to monitor the 24 volts since both sources need to be there to operate shunt.

[@aaroncenteno6691]

Does the smoke just recall the elevator?

[@genebrode]

In general, only smoke detectors in the elevator lobby, elevator machine room/closet, and any smoke in the shaft will recall.

[@RB-xv4si]

A 2 phase breaker panel? Never heard of such a thing 🤪

[@TodoInventosTV]

Yes i see 1 phase 2 phase and obviously 3 phase. #todoinventostv

[@RB-xv4si]

@@TodoInventosTV I’m talking about what the guy CALLED the panel; not talking about what you see. He called it a 2 phase panel at around 3:50.

[@TodoInventosTV]

@@RB-xv4si ok i got you, sorry i'm learning english, i make videos about conduit bending #todoinventostv

[@RB-xv4si]

@@TodoInventosTV it’s alright. I wasn’t very clear in my original comment. It’s easy to miss in the video. But yes, the power supply from the main breaker is 3 phase.

[@TodoInventosTV]

@@RB-xv4si yeah is correct, thank you

[@jaymaster7217]

Is the MR 101 something like a RIB

[@JoeKlochan]

Yeah, same type of deal

[@thomaselsenpeter2942]

Couldn't you just use a shunt breaker on the panel with a normally open relay that sends 120v to the breaker once it's closed via heat detector?

[@JoeKlochan]

I'm not sure what you're saying.

[@robbsutube]

no - the heat detector is used for early recall, prior to water flow - and thus is a set at a low activation temperature. The issues is the sprinkler water flow wetting the traction brakes and electronic controls could cause a fatality. therefor ASME a17.1 requires power to be killed when the water starts flowing - watch a few videos on line how people get killed when elevator brakes or controls fail to work properly. the're out there and the're horrific. A person caught between floors when the elevator decides to move often decapitates the victim. Thereby ASME A17.1 water shunt requirement - take no chances.

[@paolorussello1292]

Can you use a rib relay if you can't find an Mr 101?

[@JoeKlochan]

As long as the current rating is high enough, I don't see why not. I've never seen it done that way though. The only thing that comes to mind is that it maybe more difficult to keep 1/4" of separation between power limited and non power limited with those, but I'm sure it can be done. My main concern would be current rating but those RIBs are also rated for 10amps.

[@veronika2012us]

The problem with using a RIB vs. MR101 is that RIB is not rated/ listed to be used with FA system (life safety). Other than that they work the same.

[@Muddypaws589]

Common is suppose to be the grounded conductor (white). Why do you have the ungrounded conductor (black) going to common¿

[@JoeKlochan]

Huh? Why would you switch the grounded conductor?

[@robbsutube]

you all should read art 760 of NFPA 70 - power limited circuits - this video does not comply with the code. You must have something in-line between the breaker and the FRM module - fire alarm circuits cannot be directly connected to a power source where an instantaneous fault would exceed 100VA. hence the requirement for a class 2 transformer. For example a Typical commercial application with a 3ph 75kVA transformer at 208 - that 750 x the allowable current at fault (phase to ground) - suggest using a pilot RIB UL listed FA relay. Do not follow this video if you want to adhere to the NEC NFPA 70 fire alarm circuits requirement.

[@robbsutube]

also -a circuit breaker is not a power source.. a MCB is rated to protect line voltage devices and wiring from a fire... - A fire alarm circuit is for life safety

[@JoeKlochan]

Robb, your comment makes sense, and after seeing it I went to 760 in the 2017 version of NFPA70 and cannot find reference to what you're saying. Can you point me in the right direction?

[@JoeKlochan]

@@robbsutube obviously a circuit breaker is not a power source, if I said that in the video, I'm not going off a script so I may have just said that flippantly. But yes, to anyone who may have been confused by that, there's nothing magical about a circuit breaker that creates power.

[@robbsutube]

@@JoeKlochan yes.. give me a second. would love too -as this is the often over looked issue of Power limited vs non power limited circuits. If you look at any FA control module specificationss - the listing for the control relay is limited to 100VA - 100VA is a CLASS II requirement for a fire alarm circuit. In theory when connecting directly to a distribution panel - the power source is the same as the stepdown transformer at the curb - or on top of the pole. The same goes for sizing the Interupt capacity (AIC) of a breaker. home use is 10KAIC, where as commercial 22KAIC and industrial is even higher.

[@robbsutube]

@@JoeKlochan and also look at a elevator sub-panel page 7 www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&allowInterrupt=1&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&noSaveAs=0&Rendition=Primary&dDocName=TD00801003E look at the rating of the control transfomer (100VA)

[@lognum4155]

how do you do this with a conventional fire alarm control panel?

[@JoeKlochan]

That would depend on the panel. It becomes pretty difficult if you aren't able to map zones on your panel, and add additional relays. If you are able to map zones and add relays in the panel, then it would technically be possible to do by having one zone on the panel that monitors all the heat detectors for shunt. Then map that zone to an output relay that would trip an MR-101 closer to the shunt trip breaker. In the old days, they would use heat detectors that had two sets of contacts on them, and run a 120 shunt circuit through the extra set of contacts on the heat. That's dangerous for a few reasons, and it isn't done anymore.

[@lognum4155]

@@JoeKlochan Would we need seperate zones for primary recall, secondary recall, fire hat flash, and shunt trip? or can they all be 1 zone?

[@JoeKlochan]

@@lognum4155 yes, and separate relays. Your best bet would be to just add an addressable panel, if only for recall. It's going to be much easier than the wire you'd have to pull to keep everything on one zone. Plus the recall relays are supposed to be installed within 3 feet of the elevator equipment, which would be tough to pull off on a conventional system

[@lognum4155]

@@JoeKlochan can the addressable panel be powered via the non addressable panel? How would I be able to add an addressable panel without headache. In my area I might have to tap ahead of the main service switch

[@JoeKlochan]

@@lognum4155 yeah that shouldn't be an issue

[@cliffordturley8749]

This is all crap. An elevator shunt trip will not function until any passengers are brought to the first floor, and the doors open. When that happens the doors will then close and then the relay/control will close sending 120 volts to the shunt trip cutting power to all elevator equipment.

[@JoeKlochan]

That's just not true. I've encountered a ton of elevator shunt trips in the field, and none do what you say. What mechanism is used to accomplish what you're saying?

[@cliffordturley8749]

@@JoeKlochan the FACP

[@miguelbernabe753]

If you don’t like what you see just stop watching, there’s people here that appreciate others sharing their knowledge.

[@JoeKlochan]

That's not what I mean. What process? What is the order of operation? Are you arguing the smokes will trip first? Or are you arguing there is some process within the elevator that completes the process you claim happens? The shunt trip kills power right now, that's how every single one I've seen works.

[@chandraagoes2684]

If a waterflow or pressure switch (in a preaction system) is used for the shunt trip function of an elevator, there shall NOT be a delay.

[@adamevans9986]

You know your stuff sir thanks for sharing it.i was wondering today how the elevator recall was wired I did a test on the elevator smokes today and out of 10 floors one of the floors did nothing ,to elevators how would you go about troubleshooting.. electriciantechnician00

[@JoeKlochan]

You just meter your relays (be careful, the elevator controller's voltage will be present on the contacts). If the proper relay is changing states when the detector is activated, your equipment is fine and it's on the elevator tech. If the relay isn't changing states, then it's a programming issue

[@adamevans9986]

@@JoeKlochan ok got it,thanks it could be a program issue .

[@kevin11ta]

Joe, keep the videos going. Great stuff!

[@kevin11ta]

Joe, keep the videos going. Great stuff!

[@kevin11ta]

Joe, keep the videos going. Great stuff!