4 MUST-Follow Rock-Climbing Etiquette for Rock Climbers | Singapore Climbing Gym | Boulder Movement

[@LucyInk121]

"Don't climb with your shirt off" Magnus - 😬

[@peacefulrobin4369]

😂😂 fr

[@woolypuffin392]

For families: It's great if you bring your kids to the gym, but don't let them run loose. Just today a little girl, like 5 years old ran under me while I climbed, that's super dangerous! If I fall onto your child, you are at fault for not teaching them gym etiquette. Also, if they scream, take them out...

[@TheOGRizzlyBear]

Happened to me my first time as well, luckily I was making sure to look every time I dropped, but if I were to fall it could have ended badly

[@schecter5035]

Glad the climbing gym near me rarely seems to have kids in, well im 16 but was like the youngest one there, and it was real busy that day. Little kids running under scares me honestly, dont wanna kill someone

[@Woodside235]

The gym I go to regularly has this mother and her son come in often. The kid always just rounds around doing like two moves on random routes before getting off and running around some more. Wouldn't be a big deal, except in a single day I saw him nearly got squished three times. And one time the climber had to do a really rough bail to dodge hitting the kid. Crazy stuff.

[@LawofMosesHere]

Always can tell those who have boundless kids with energy to those that don’t. My kid is super well-behaved, but she is a ball of energy, and unless I want to be yelling disrupting others, it’s inevitable she might run from from one route to the next. This is because she’s 7 and didn’t even need the “kid zone” on her first day. We parents try our best to keep them out from underfoot. Ty.

[@La0bouchere]

@@LawofMosesHere I don't think some parents take this as seriously as it should be taken. Every time you let your kid run under someone you're risking a full adult falling on them. Yelling at them and being disruptive is fine and no one will judge you, since the alternative is your kid getting seriously injured (not to mention other climbers).

[@osbkvkspwlng]

rock climbers are easily one of the chillest communitys out there

[@jryalls]

There’s a guy in my gym who climbs with no top on and wears the skimpiest little shorts. He’s a double threat.

[@chrisreynolds2410]

Was it hard to tell your parents you are gay?

[@jolyn3083]

@@chrisreynolds2410 no

[@AMM1998]

he's a threat because he climbs shirtless

[@clubsong9264]

He sounds cool tbh

[@carrot4222]

Magnus?

[@rasmusskinlo8567]

Protip: You always climb atleast a grade harder without a shirt on.

[@davidarmstrong2078]

Studies suggest that taking your shirt off increases power output by 11.4%

[@Karmeki_]

I’m 15 and got into climbing a couple months ago, it’s the only sport I’ve every enjoyed and I feel that’s it’s also the people that are part of the reason I love it so much, one day I was doing a grade 18 (not sure what grade that would be considered there but it’s around b5) and some guy just decided to help me, ever since, him and his group tend to help me and my older sister out a lot, he’s helped me get to a level 20

[@skibititoiletrizzler]

this doesn’t really have anything to do with ur comment but im 14 and i have also really wanted to start rock climbing? but i didn’t know what to wear and this video was more abt what adults and stuff wear. so i just wanted to know what you wear? also i know there r special shoes for rock climbing so i wanted to know how u get those, do u get them at the climbing place or do u order them?

[@Kipland]

@@skibititoiletrizzler Yo, I'm in my 20s, but I just started climbing a few months ago. I would say find some pants or shorts that you think would be comfortable maneuvering in; I tend to wear shorts when I climb and I do end up scraping my knees like the video says, but I like wearing them regardless. You can probably worry less about shoes for now unless you have the money to shell out immediately. I just bought my first pair of new shoes after spending my first few weeks using rentals, then moving on to a donated pair that only cost me 5 dollars. I'm going through the process of breaking the new pair in, and it was a little uncomfortable/painful the first session. They are slowly forming to my feet and becoming easier to climb in; I definitely feel the difference between these shoes and the donated pair that did not fit me nearly as well. My gym sells shoes, but I went to REI to get my pair since they were on sale. You might be able to still take advantage of the sale if you live near an REI and can go within the next two days. Also, I would heavily recommend going into a store to try on shoes before you buy as they seem to all fit differently.

[@lalystar4230]

@@skibititoiletrizzler Hopefully you've already started climbing and found answers to your questions, but if not; For kids and teens the same goes about clothing as it does for adults. at the gym, wear stuff that's comfortable to you, and that you can move freely in and that won't get caught on holds or cause you to step on the clothing as you try to climb as that may cause you to slip and fall. As for shoes. I find it best to go to either a local shop that specialises in climbing sports, including footwear, OR buy them at your local bouldering/climbing gym. Those people will generally love climbing and have actual knowledge about what they sell and how shoes should fit. This is as opposed to going to like a generic sports shop (eg. decathlon) where the staff most of the time won't know the details about it (unless you're lucky). For first time shoes, I'd probably not buy them online, as there's a real benefit to actualyl trying on different shoes as each shoe has a very different fit and sizes are very different between shoes, even within the same brand. Besides, this will also help out the local climbing community.

[@uSil031]

I really can't agree with the shorts. Climbing gyms are usually very hot and most long pants limit movement no matter how they are cut. There are lots of short pants that have like an inner layer so people don't see inside them from below. Really don't get why that should be a taboo

[@doffen_x6291]

I agere i always Climb wher my shorts

[@katik4208]

In summer it's freaking hot in my gym, so I wear shorts. Everyone does.

[@ayuminor]

I was a bit surprised at that one as well

[@skibititoiletrizzler]

alr good! cuz i am starting rock climbing and i was a little worried abt.

[@ChuckSploder]

same

[@bscutajar]

Everyone wears shorts and is shirtless where I go, no one is put off or offended by it. It's just the norm

[@ChuckSploder]

@@bscutajar I found a florida man (just a joke lol)

[@kephrarubin]

This was helpful, my family and I are new and the staff gave us a prep and we did everything we were told but people kept looking at us like we were idiots. Finally I just asked someone if we were doing something wrong and they were like "oh no, you're fine. " which felt like a lie lol so I searched for an etiquette video and the chalk and probably getting in people's way without understanding which direction their route was heading was 2 definite issues we were doing I'll have to get some chalk balls and try and climb away from people even further than I was. Thanks for the video👍👍👍

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

Thanks for the feedback! It's unfortunate that when you asked someone and they weren't forthcoming with you, could have saved you the trouble if they came from a place of good intention, and likewise, for you and your family too. Glad to have helped your family's climbing journey :D

[@faladorn2421]

I climb shirtless most of the time, not because It's too hot, not because girls are arounds (I don't even have an athlete body anyway), not because I want to intimidate people nor make them uncomfortable. I take my shirt off because most of the time I want to give my maximum effort when climbing and it mentally helps me. It's a real technic, ask all the best climbers in the world, ask Magnus, ask Ondra. Most of the shirtless climbers do that for conditionning themselves. But I will always comply to the gym rules, so I adapt myself to the gym/country I go to

[@Dave1507]

If it's a mental thing, you should condition yourself to climb hard with a shirt on until you can rival Magnus or Adam.

[@faladorn2421]

@@Dave1507 Ahahah which means climbing shirt on forever, well done !

[@Dave1507]

@@faladorn2421 Thanks, but now i notice you wrote shortless, so maybe that's a whole different issue.. ;)

[@faladorn2421]

@@Dave1507 ooops ahahahah Corrected it thx ! When will I improve my english ? idk :,)

[@Dave1507]

@@faladorn2421 Dude, your english is fine, everybody makes a typing mistake here and there, don't worry about it!

[@fourdegreeswarmer]

Been hangboarding like crazy in my garage. Today is my first day in the gym. Thanks for the tips 🤙🏼

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

You got this 🦾 Have fun!

[@paulmc107]

I can 100% agree with every point in this great video! I've been climbing for year and have absolutely loved the community and the sport itself but I'll always continue learning

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

Thanks so much Paul - aren't we all learning something new every time we climb? :)

[@biscuitboy4782]

Love the video! If you make another one it might be a good idea to mention that people should not wear their climbing shoes in the bathroom so that the walls stay clean I had a friend walk in there with his rentals on once without thinking about it, after all we don’t think about changing shoes when using the restroom in our daily lives, so it’s a good idea to make people aware of it for the climbing gym

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

That's a really good point! Thanks for the idea, we'll use it for our future video content.

[@MA-zg2pz]

Omg 😶

[@Aashishkebab]

They explicitly state this in the intro to our gym. "Handholds become footholds and we don't want to mix those two worlds".

[@johnshipley1389]

On the hygiene point, I think washing your hands when you enter the gym and when you leave is a good idea.

[@lalystar4230]

@@johnshipley1389 definitely washing my hands when leaving the gym... i don't want that chalk on my hands for the rest of the day xD And after washing off the chalk, slather on some moisturizer xD my hands get real dry and rough otherwise hahaha

[@-droid-j7-225]

What do you mean keep your shirt on? I thought it was important to take it off to climb better…magnus was a lie all along?

[@mitchplease456]

Thank you for this. I was stressing out since there does seem to be a lot of ediquette, but rock climbers are too nice to tell you unless you ask.

[@SCOclimbing]

The gym I go is the oldest in Lisbon and the clients are all old school climbers who climb shirtless, to be fair as an old gym member (did bodybuilding for 5 years) that doesnt bother me at all, simply I dont even care about someone’s outfit.

[@chewychicken5164]

i was climbing nearly at my ending point and the wall was quite slim. and a small kid went on my wall just as i was trying to get down.his legs started to give out cause i couldn't move but he didnt want to get down

[@woolypuffin392]

Yeah today a child ran under me while I was at the top. Super dangerous and glad the father told her off, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

[@jj8624-s8m]

Fun video! I'm a beginner climber so this helps. Wish to climb in Singapore one day!

[@richardbently7236]

I had a boulder movement earlier today.

[@winkelsj]

As a new climber, this is very helpful! I go with an experienced friend who models these norms for me, but it's helpful to have these expectations explicitly stated. I would add (and maybe this is just my gym/ Americans) but please please PLEASE wear deodorant!! When it's busy it gets stinky and not being smelly is a way of showing respect to your fellow climbers.

[@billydamnit]

Not wearing deodorant, should be a felony.

[@ChuckSploder]

Oh my gosh, it constantly smells like BO and smoking in my gym, not to mention Little Caesar's sometimes lol

[@Zachyzoro]

Nah shirt off is totally chill. What’s wrong with skin? Short shorts too. Kinda weird to be looking up peoples shorts in the first place.

[@amandamapes6763]

Thank you for the video! Everyone at the rock climbing gym seems so cool, I want to make sure I'm not committing any faux pas o.0

[@jovantan.]

Yooo didn't know BoulderM had a YT channel until I saw Michael's face on my recommended! Great, advice, edits, and "acting" haha, can't wait to get back to my favourite gym!

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

awesome! :) say hi to mike if you see him around!!

[@missstorrm]

Thanks for bringing up the shirtless issue. As much as it's enjoyable to watch shredded guys climbing shirtless but the sweat dripping on everything is not the nicest thing... Other things I'd point out: 1. DO NOT climb barefoot, even if you're just stretching. Nobody wants to touch the holds where you placed your feet a minute ago... Also: who knows what's on your feet (fungus? who knows...) so, yeah, gross. 2. DO NOT wear the climbing shoes inside the bathroom. Again: unsanitary and gross!!

[@ChuckSploder]

You have a trillion germs on each foot. That's 1000x more germs per foot that your mouth.

[@uSil031]

Sweat drips from your face too you know and the matts are cleaned regularly. Let people climb however they feel comfortable no need to be so prude.

[@JustinKoenigSilica]

I wear baggy pants because they're warm and comfortable. 🤷‍♂️

[@papaya9357]

It looks cool though

[@domingosauspiciosos67]

Agree with everything, excepct about shirts on. Cmon, it's impossible to climb with a shirt on

[@skyex5047]

No shoes no service. Shirt, however, is optional for every gender. - Come on, guys, this is not tennis. And what happened to love your body? Unless it's so hot that you risk turning the mats into a slip and slide, of course.

[@MinhTriesClimbing]

How about giving a small tip on a certain hold that people are struggling with? is that considered spraying also? If yes, I will have to stop doing that 😂

[@jeffreychongsathien]

Great video. Compliments from 🇬🇧

[@AlexMckillmore]

Hard "no" on chalk balls. Also, worse than spraying is: "Allez" "Allez" "Allez" "Allez" "Allez" Etc...

[@courtclimbs]

Really good points!

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

Thanks so much for the comment! :)

[@javiercalvohidalgo4238]

Really good explanation. Thanks

[@i-am-mercurial]

Anyhowly anyhow do you do?

[@kim98677]

Protect my knees? But how will everyone know i climb if i dont scuff absolutely every visible part of my body?

[@klammer75]

I am always trying to help my children understand what to do and am almost always talking to them while they climb….is that considered spraying?

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

It's a matter of perception. When that advice is asked for and happily received, then it's welcome. When the advice is unsolicited and delivered in a way that takes away the fun of self-exploration, then it's probably spraying. This video is meant as a way for us to shape social discourse. Don't let us tell you what to do with your kids - we're certainly not qualified 😂

[@Keithphotorama]

Excellent video 👍👍👍

[@CityKanin]

Yes! True Climbers are nice people ^w^

[@somebodydoingthings]

I hate chalk balls..but then I don't leave a mess everywhere either and I think that is more important.

[@waturitz]

It's just that not every gym is that air-conditioned as yours seems to be, so wearing long trousers and a shirt in the summer can get really uncomfortable if not even dangerous. So I can't quite understand these points, nor do the owners of the gyms I've been to so far who don't care if you climb shirtless.

[@woolypuffin392]

Please most women can't take their shirt off and even wear a bra under it. I don't strip aswell.

[@casparvoncampenhausen5249]

"Keep your shirt on" Magnus Midtbó has joined the chat

[@chuantan109]

7:09 where can i buy the white dog chalk bag ? so cute~

[@timhorton8085]

For "hygiene"? I strongly doubt my hand is more hygenic than my bare back. Have you seen what i do with these things?

[@3monkey3]

Your tips are good, except "topless in most" is not permitted. This is incorrect. Don't confuse location rules with sport etiquette. Other places are less prudish and many a dude in many places can be seen topless. Magnus Midtbø and Adam Ondra are just two shining examples. Certainly in France and Switzerland where I climb, nobody is disturbed by a topless dude. Don't spread prudery dude!

[@papaya9357]

True. In Switzerland at least...where I know, looks like no one cares what others wear :D People are busy with their own business

[@SoSomyxa]

Hes from japan where prudery is the norm. Good points though

[@user-yo5yr9yr2h]

Listen, call me a prude, but i want to be able to go to the gym without half naked people around. Ask the majority of women that go to climbing gyms and you'll find they prefer it if you kept your shirt on. It's the gym, not a dating app. And it's not as much of a thing of seeing skin as much as a case of feeling grossed out falling on a bouldering matte that someone else's sweaty back fell on too.

[@DebraWilderMeditation]

@@user-yo5yr9yr2h Totally agree. It messes with my climb to see guys topless peacocking around. My gym A/C is ice cold. Even Florida people want it saved for the beach.

[@robertturner7090]

Its a Singapore/Asian thing. I agree its prudeness....but I'm a guest so happy to accommodate. In my own culture I'd be alot less accommodating. Comfort comes first, and ladies I can assure you I'm not interested in what you think. A shirtless guy is not an automatic peacock, just as a girl in a sports bra isn't an invite. Be respectful of each others bodies and differences and just have fun.

[@BunnyAce]

In my gym the vast majority of people climb shirtless, what's wrong with it :(

[@Vollkornreistoast]

2:40 Magnus Mitbo has left the channel

[@thorstenkoch194]

Nice video. Just everytime you said "rock climbing", I was like.... naaa. ;-)

[@doug5372]

Sometimes my gym looks like a victoria secret lingerie show XD

[@PumaM90]

Thats what I wanted to hear, I'm gonna join my local gym asap.

[@StealthyZombie]

Where’s your gym? Lol I’d like to join.

[@jaanaenkerro445]

I feel like a lot of youtuber climbers do these things:DD

[@jdthedj1629]

Modesty is subjective. Wear a shirt if you want to. Its as simple as that.

[@caimanaraujo479]

I did two climbing sessions, both of them I sprayed beta left and right XD Sorry climbing community. I was with my friends, and we are really talkative, and I come from volleyball, and there we have to communicate every single detail or we loose. So it was second nature. Won't do it anymore =)

[@madelynbaldree4815]

What I would give for a single wall within 2 cities of me

[@galaxygurl1232]

I always leave the gym COVERED in chalk 😅

[@UNLIMITED_WMSEEDS]

Its not there fault but there are so many times when ive spent 20 minutes looking at a wall and I think ive finally solved it then just when im about to put my hands on the starting hold a little kid will cut in front of me and spend 30 minutes on it -_-

[@Aashishkebab]

Even Magnus doesn't keep his shirt on lol. I don't see too much of a problem with that.

[@ryanrocco154]

Climb with a shirt on! ...unless you're Magnus Midtbø😅😤

[@flymrpie1]

I'm new to climbing and to be honest the shorts rule is a bit ridiculous... Why should I cover my knees and be "modest" I'm not going to a mosque, I'm going to exert physical effort. Leave me alone 😂

[@VIEW-ut3bu]

It's gnarly.

[@Tinr2d2]

who''s gonna tell magnus midtbo to put his shirt on

[@waturitz]

try telling Magnus Midboe about not climbinig shirtless

[@Ascentyon]

Half of these rules is just pure BS.... - 80% of people climb in shorts. In the 3 years I've been going to the gym, I never once saw underwear below the shorts.... Though protecting your knees is potentially a good idea. - Shirtless. When the gym is 30 degrees without any AC, please **** off with your "no shirtless" rule. - Chalk balls, yeah no thanks. Tried them once, you barely get enough chalk to last you the first hold. Just get a proper bouldering chalk bag.

[@MA-zg2pz]

🙄

[@papaya9357]

Chalk ball...I have it and you're right 😭

[@katik4208]

Agreed. Some of his rules are stupid. Only the ones about surroundings and spraying are spot on.

[@garrettjohnsen]

Dang… I hope I don’t “spray”. I didn’t know that was a thing. 😢

[@noodlebanana7512]

Just stick to encouragement unless someone asks for help :)

[@garrettjohnsen]

@@noodlebanana7512 Yeah, noted!

[@zraybroske2416]

These are the kind of skills parents teach 5 year olds. It’s sad we are having to teach them to adults. :)

[@kevingogo1252]

The comments were 69 but I messed it up

[@thatrando3041]

7 Because you are my help, I sing in the shadow of your wings. (‭‭Psalms‬ ‭63‬‬:‭7‬ NIV)

[@zpushz]

What

[@amv9006]

magnus gonna be mad that he has to keep his shirt on

[@steventhaw3765]

Using profanity to keep others away from the route they hold hostage at the Touchstone climbing gym Concord, California. .

[@chinchiIIa]

😲😲😳😳😎😎

[@nickj9085]

Because 'We are cool like that' Omg So cringe

[@me__ggabriel218]

nahhh never keep your tee on

[@PapP148]

I disagree with this. You're rock climbing, wear shorts and take off your shirt if you want. "Hygiene" is a shitty excuse to keep your top on, its just your body.

[@MA-zg2pz]

Different places and culture maybe

[@janekmundt579]

Depends. In a hall you don’t have to take your shirt of, that’s a privilege reserved for actual outdoor real climbing imo

[@janekmundt579]

Depends. In a hall you don’t have to take your shirt of, that’s a privilege reserved for actual outdoor real climbing imo

[@nateboutcher]

Newly interested in climbing, but really turned off by my perceptions of the community and culture. So much judgement. “Don’t wear baggy clothing or you’ll be that guy and everyone will roll their eyes at you” How about I dress how I want, and you mind your own business!

[@oliveneuendorf6182]

You’re reading too much into those sentences by themselves. The clothing thing is a recommendation in the interest of safety not judgment. And the eye rolling comment is just a lighthearted comment. And besides the point of this video is to allay the fears of anyone who’s worried about looking out of place. Plus these are the recommendations of one gym in one country of a specific culture. In general climbers are very non-judgmental and easygoing like he said at the start.

[@humanimal5527]

Baggy clothing will snag on holds, making it harder to climb. It could also lead to injury or tear your clothes.

[@AMM1998]

this guy is from Singapore and definitely has a more conservative view on clothing and behavior in general. Clearly other people's perception of him matters a lot to him. He also said don't go shirtless because people think it's not classy. Why do I give a fuck what some stranger from the gym thinks of what I'm wearing? This guy gives off a gatekeeper vibe imo

[@AMM1998]

@@humanimal5527 I've been climbing in baggy clothes for more than 10 years, never snagged anything on a hold. Has that actually happened to you or are you just repeating stuff you heard from other people?

[@AMM1998]

@what ever okay, but who owns pants like that? Nobody. Trust me man I've been climbing in objectively baggy clothes since I was a teen and have never had anything get caught on a hold. You can wear whatever you want in this sport, the dude in the video is just pushing his own preferences on the viewers

[@misterminister3858]

restricting people what to wear or not to wear....jeez. Like in Iran, they tell the women to wear something because it distracts the men and it is "inmoral" not to be covered up. Same thinking here.

[@Dave1507]

Absolutely not the same thinking. Ever come across the phrase "no shirt, no shoes, no service?" That's the same as in the gym. And by the way, it's not the women who feel the need to go shirtless anyway.

[@MikeOxlong70]

@@Dave1507 well, he made the point of shorts being "immodest". I dont see at all why that would be the case. Being shirtless depends on the gym. Some allow it, some dont. And by the way, this type of thinking doesnt always have to apply to women.

[@Dave1507]

@@MikeOxlong70 what type of thinking? that you follow the house rules or go elsewhere?

[@MikeOxlong70]

@@Dave1507 oh but we were not talking about house rules. In the video it is said that it would be immodest to go shirtless, period. Restricting the clothing because its immodest is the type of thinking we were talking about. Like the girls in iran, or some youtuber claiming something is immodest, no matter where you are. Like being shirtless, which is allowed in almost every gym where i come from, or wearing shorts for some reason.

[@Dave1507]

@@MikeOxlong70 all right, the house rule is "no shorts!" and percieved immodesty is the reasoning behind. potato, potato. (yeah, that doesn't really work in written form, but you know what I mean.)

[@tpstrat14]

70 seconds in and zero content lol try again

[@bumckfszful]

I dont like the energy this guy spreads.

[@benghiskahn3673]

Errrrrm. Are you really even climbing if you have your shirt on???

[@johnrobb9408]

"Spraying " is bragging about yourself. A lot of beta is spraying!

[@gangsterbob007]

#5 ropes are better

[@tyeauga]

Don't see anything helpful for climbing outside.

[@user-yo5yr9yr2h]

pls wear a shirt... i feel so uncomfortable seeing so much skin and that much sweat on someone. And it makes me want to avoid doing climbs if they're in proximity. I wish youtubers would stop going topless and normalizing it.

[@tomdoumont2129]

I wish people would stop being uncomfortable seing someone chest

[@zpushz]

Sounds like you are just insecure

[@misterminister3858]

Maybe you should reflect on yourself and the reason what makes you want to restrict others in their freedom to wear or not to wear something.

[@rocket934]

@@misterminister3858 yeah lets walk naked in the streets

[@misterminister3858]

@@rocket934 I would not care - why do you? you dont have to but you could. The judgement and rules you have about this are just in your head. Why force people how to dress? are you that insecure?

[@gayfairy3282]

me who climbs in running shorts

[@bouldermovementsingapore3984]

Just make sure no one is under you looking up!

[@gayfairy3282]

@@bouldermovementsingapore3984 I wear bike shorts underneath and if i am wearing a harness it kinda holds it in place

[@katik4208]

@@bouldermovementsingapore3984 thats their problem when they look at that lol

[@ChristianDevine-w2d]

I can 100% agree with every point in this great video! I've been climbing for year and have absolutely loved the community and the sport itself but I'll always continue learning

[@ArmandFlowers]

Love the video! If you make another one it might be a good idea to mention that people should not wear their climbing shoes in the bathroom so that the walls stay clean I had a friend walk in there with his rentals on once without thinking about it, after all we don’t think about changing shoes when using the restroom in our daily lives, so it’s a good idea to make people aware of it for the climbing gym

[@AdamNorton-r1u]

i was climbing nearly at my ending point and the wall was quite slim. and a small kid went on my wall just as i was trying to get down.his legs started to give out cause i couldn't move but he didnt want to get down

[@SebastianShultz-w4h]

Modesty is subjective. Wear a shirt if you want to. Its as simple as that.

[@haydenagnew]

U a bot someone said the exact same thing earlier