434: Critical Theory & the Christian with David Fitch

[@Evelyn-pl3we]

Hi, I am a Christian and a Black woman, and I have to say, this channel is SO refreshing. I have met so many cruel and uncaring Christians" who constantly ignore the struggles of BIPOC or that we even experience racism. When I bring up topics, some* have called me a Marxists, Liberal ("libtard") or some other dumb term. This has been painful, so I appreciate you all's honest conversations and kindness when discussing these matters. It is refreshing.

[@DrLaTeira]

I totally agree. This is one of the few podcasts not lead by BIPOC Christians that I can listen to on the subject of justice without feeling hurt. I really appreciate this podcast.

[@tawootawoo]

Ff

[@jgunn03]

I'm an atheist Andi enjoy listening to The Holy Post because it's one of the few podcasts that address social issues of race, gender, and class in a way that follows the teachings of Jesus.

[@jgunn03]

Andi HATE any wordplay on the 'r' word. As a person with TBI, using the word outside of diagnosis is degrading to all humans who have limitations of mental capacity.

[@onegirlarmy4401]

The American Church as a whole is much more comfortable with our theology than the application of our theology. As long as our sermons never change the way that we interact with each other, we will have no impact on anyone or our society.

[@joehemphill9183]

"If SBC were an ice cream flavor, they would be vanilla with like 4 chocolate chips in it..." 🤣🤣🤣

[@MPaulHolmesMPH]

If you marry someone from "another race" it's easy to see a variety of things that happen in the world that aren't right. My black wife was constantly trying to be convinced by doctors and nurses in Washington State to have an abortion or to get a hysterectomy when she was pregnant. I don't think that's super common in middle class or upper middle-class white world. I never saw that happen with my sister's pregnancy (she is white). My wife had a hard time becoming a teacher because she spoke a different dialect than the king's English. Her mom is from Mississippi, and her whole family was from the south, 12 kids in a tiny house, etc... I could read the English section of the Praxis exam and it was easy to correct the bad grammar. The bad grammar didn't sound right for some reason. For her, it sounded just fine. there are a bunch of little things like this that go completely unnoticed when you don't live in that world.

[@sarawoods1450]

Wow that’s horrible. I’ve heard of such but not from first hand witness. I agree marrying somebody from a mixed background makes you more open to these things my husband is only half Lebanese and also being from Canada we see things differently more open to other cultural influences.

[@TyStudhead]

Lived in Brazil for two years. I'm white. Some of the things you mention are more about just inherent dominant language and have nothing to do with racism or discrimination or prejudice. I wasn't being "oppressed" just because I couldn't understand their language, or because I was told I couldn't speak it, even when I can. Some people told me I was an idiot who should go back to "Germany" (they thought I was German). Didn't really bother me because they were just not correct. My point is don't be so quick to interpret things as "racism" or "oppression." Culture has its simple laws just like physics, and not all of them are mal-intended. They just "are." People can be rude, yes, but that's better dealt with from a trajectory of self-worth (ahem, Christianity) and not all this "pity the victim" stuff. Remember that pity comes across as condescending, and says, "I feel sorry for you because you are less than me." Christianity says we're all on the same level, and in need of Salvation. Real Christianity bypasses all this talk and goes straight to the important crisis, our Soul's Eternal Life. Every human on earth is on the same level under heaven. All this talk left and right is a diabolical distraction from the whole and holy point.

[@spacecase7566]

"Thomas Jefferson was handed the Declaration of Independence by Jesus. I saw the painting." Oh my gosh 🤣🤣🤣

[@racheljordan4899]

This podcast gives me life

[@drumminfro]

Same. So refreshing to hear things being discussed like this

[@brettschlee7090]

This podcast can't give life... because it's devoid of biblical truth. Jesus and His gospel give life... turn to Him.

[@racheljordan4899]

@@brettschlee7090 Haha chill I was just being melodramatic. And this podcast is hardly devoid of Biblical truth. Skye alone references scripture an approx. 1.5 times per sentence lol

[@venomfangnext]

Shouldnt that be the Gods job lol

[@drumminfro]

@@venomfangnext It's a figure of speech. Obviously God gives us life. When someone says "[This] gives me life," it's another way of saying that it's refreshing, uplifting, and encouraging

[@Parableman]

I didn't hear much in the interview actually addressing what critical theory is. It seemed to confuse the broader category of critical theories (of which the Frankfurt school, postmodernism, and contemporary critical theory are all examples of) with the more specific contemporary critical theory that is actually the issue right now, as exemplified by people like Ibram Kendi or Robin DiAngelo in its most popular form. Contemporary critical theory makes some very specific claims that do conflict with core tenets of Christianity. And it is a quite distinct view from Marxism, postmodernism, or the Frankfurt school, despite taking things from all of those. Critics run them all together in order to dismiss them, and Fitch seems to be running them all together in order to say there's nothing wrong with the broad framework that all of them fall into, but the issue is whether the more particular approach is consistent with Christianity, and he hardly even discussed anything that might lead to answering that.

[@emesselt]

“They grasp for some theology to justify their comfort” The problem with the rotating pastor model is that the congregations don’t change their hearts; they just wait out the pastor until rotated out: “We were here before you came and we’ll be here after you’re gone.” 😬

[@mathewyerry2072]

I’m sad I just found this . But now I have a lot of catching up to do . Just watched the trump we trust episode and it was strange to hear it after the election has come and continued to go on. Thank you for this content

[@Kelga80]

Listening to David was like getting a theological talk from Jack Nicholson. His voice and face kind of reminds me of Jack. 🤣🤣

[@kisslena]

That made it so much more enjoyable outside of the great commentary. This is a must see for every Believer In Jesus Christ. Or Christian. There is a difference. 😘

[@veggiet2009]

Oh my goodness, I hadn't had that thought, but he sure does

[@Kelga80]

@@RaphPatch I thought Michael Keaton as well! I wasn't sure, but settled on Jack Nicholson.

[@lindaweatherford5278]

Team Jack lol

[@alisonostrander371]

I thought the same!

[@ktheg48]

I have recently read Faith for This Moment and have met and listened to Rick McKinley while visiting the Pacific Northwest. He is a wonderful pastor/teacher who is doing incredible things in the inner city. Love him!

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

Can power be used in a none coercive manner would require power that gives but did not ask for anything. The US doesn't understand this idea.

[@angelamurphy5227]

As for the question of a bus boycott being "coercive" power, I would compare it to a wife leaving for a time, refusing to allow her husband to physically abuse her. Is she coercing him? Or taking, yes, a form of personal power, to say "I won't allow this harm, I am worthy of better." Like you guys said, not all power is bad.

[@SandraMcCord]

I love this episode. Watched it a few times. Can you have this man on regularly?

[@emmanuelardama]

I never understood the unspoken prayer request. It always bothered me.

[@cecilwinthorp4038]

This podcast has ministered to my spirit more than going to church. Please continue such rich insights of biblical applications into today's life.

[@warkraftrabbitz2171]

Will you guys do an episode on teachings themes on oppression in the Bible? It’s a major theme that almost no church discusses would love to know your thoughts. Love your podcast. Thanks for putting this together - had a really tumultuous church family experience and you guys are my sensible substitute. Thanks for the spiritual vittles!

[@destinybailey5537]

I wish everyone well. Honest podcast- it is pure gold☺️

[@loudmouthwife]

My unsolicited opinion as a New Yorker, one of the things I have issue with is that people often come to NYC because they have this idea that we’re a city that is against God and that there’s no Christians here, so they’re gonna save NYC. But then they come in a) to a rude awakening and their church plant dies within 5 years and b) to find out that there’s already a lot of churches and a lot of Christians here and that their efforts would have been just as valuable in a suburb. But we value a longevity of faithful ministry and not just being here to get ahead in your career as a pastor.

[@AlexMercadoGo]

David Fitch has the face of Batman and the voice of the Joker.

[@nbud7718]

Hi folks. Love the podcast, I'm a secular Marxist humanist, I appreciate religious perspectives. Fitch did a pretty good job. Skye, I think you misrepresented the theory a bit as if "critical theorists" force everything into oppressor and oppressed categories. We try to describe a relationship (alienated and exploitative) between two social groups like bourgeois and proletariat. Like, the aim of Marxism is not that the workers become the masters of the new slaves the bourgeois, but that we create a classless society. Or a de-racialized society or a de-gendered society. To create a new society that transcends the limitations of the one under critique. Thank you all for your labor.

[@JoshFam]

Portland made it on the podcast!! Steve Dunn (Done)

[@homeschoolingmadeeasy7798]

It's so interesting watching Phil on these videos compared to how in his kid shows he usually plays the straight man. In a more natural conversation he appears to play the silly parts too. We've really enjoyed his short series on NT Bible with Emily Elephant and Sam the Turtle. That's been our church for the last few months. It's nice because it is something we can all enjoy!

[@bman11714]

Wait, is Phil gay?

[@homeschoolingmadeeasy7798]

@@bman11714 Straight man means someone who plays serious so that another character can get the laugh off it, like Bob the tomato vs Larry the cucumber

[@lhamil6]

We’re we ever one culture? Even in the church? I think that made be a cultural frame that needs further examination. This is my second time watching and I think I have a greater understanding of critical theory now. Thanks so much!

[@veggiet2009]

I feel like we tend to think we were one culture, as the historical media represents it, rather than understanding that the media may have only told one side of the story when things like radio and tv and movies and newspapers first began they were controlled by the wealthier more educated, which because that tended to be white americans our historical media has the bent towards their culture.

[@hnewbold2123]

Love it. It might be the Corinthian way but it’s not the Christian way.

[@russellcharlton7814]

Direct experience breeds insight. If you have no experience you just have opinion.

[@AlexMercadoGo]

Missed opportunity: the SBC is Butter Pecan ice cream.

[@DigitalPlacebo]

I love your videos. Only critique I have is I have to play it at two times of speed up until the point where you start actually hitting the meat of the topic in this case it was around 6 minutes. Then I can put it on normal speed.

[@rketek]

I think it's telling that SBC says it's not compatible with "Baptist beliefs" vs Christian or Biblical beliefs.

[@veggiet2009]

I hope it doesn't ruin your analytics that I will often listen to the first half of the show and the guest segment at separate times.

[@MarkRidlen]

I always assumed the unspoken requests were something embarrasing. E.g. a large wart on the buttocks

[@PhilTomson]

As one of those Portland Christians who in the past attended Imago Dei (and I find myself watching them every Sunday now in covid times) I think you guys were a liiiittle hard on Rick McKinley by implying that he was pandering to progressive Portland. Also, he got his start as a youth pastor in La Grande, Oregon which is a very rural (and very red) part of Oregon. As one of those Portland Christians I have to say that I like that there's little or no Christiandom here - there's no expectation that being a Christian will give you any advantage here like there tends to be in other parts of the country. There's no reason at all to have a Christian veneer for show here. But yes, you should have Rick on your show and you should have John Mark Comer as well, I think both are leading a very vibrant 3rd way (Gospel) Christian movement here in Portland. From the outside all you're seeing is all the protests and anarchy, but God is definitely at work here.

[@shadowxaf]

They've had John Mark Comer on a couple times.

[@amandakay6330]

Oh the unspokens.....😄

[@AlexMercadoGo]

Some itinerancy is far too frequent-it bad for relationships and families. I think moving around can be helpful, but it’s not a silver bullet. I’ve known plenty of people who move around who just become bitter and brittle.

[@sarawoods1450]

Excellent discussion and interview. Btw I do you know of a church that actually has purge Sundays from the pulpit where they announce if you’re sitting here week after week without getting engaged you might want to move on... wow guts! It’s The Meeting House Canada where like Europe liberal trends are well established. People fear the other so! Thank you for thoughtful analysis hope you get more people turning in!

[@gabe_in_taiwan]

I thought Skye was Billy Corgan not a Bond villain

[@user-dd4fv6qj8g]

"He's always talking."

[@jendragon42]

I'm curious, Skye--I've heard people discuss non-physical forms of coercion as a different form of violence, warranting the same label. Would you agree with that use of the word? I have many thoughts; I'd be curious to hear yours.

[@chuckthompson5724]

I agree with Skye on the rotation front. We can see the results of this when we see the decline of the mainline churches. But the concept is good when we look historically the first and second awakenings in the U.S. churches grew from messages by traveling evangelists.

[@markcarpenter8479]

I have never heard of unspokens before. It is an American thing?

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

It's been a thing for a long time. I always assume it is about selfish request.

[@CandaceCureton]

Definitely not an American thing. I’ve been to many different churches, of varying denominations, and have never heard of this before. I have heard someone praying for a group acknowledge unspoken prayers, but not often.

[@CandaceCureton]

I think it’s something the person isn’t comfortable sharing with others.

[@2serve4Christ]

32:34 paraphrasing @KaitlynSchiess "are we listening to folks who are working closely with the kind of people JESUS would have been around?" BTW: @SkyeJethani is right @KaitlynSchiess is always right. Happy Chanukah, Jewish brothers & sisters!!!

[@Cyrribrae]

I never knew unspoken prayer requests were a thing. Guess I grew up in a tradition where you just said nothing haha. Is this regional? Or is my ethnic church background to thank for saving me haha

[@valerieannagnes]

It was new to me too, but I think it's because I'm Catholic.

[@alicecarroll2923]

It's funny how people in ministry have things that annoy them just like any other profession or calling. Not everyone can handle details about your situation or can be trusted to handle it gracefully. I no longer attend a church the practices this in huge groups, but it kinda cracked me up.

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

It seems that if you are afraid of how others will react to or to ashamed of your request to speak it out loud why would you think it is something God would help you out with?

[@lindaweatherford5278]

I've always heard it as a request that might be private or embarrassing, but the asker still wants to bring it corporately to the Father.

[@Noir-q2m]

Nice defense of CT.

[@troybody6662]

CHRISTIANS... No more metaphors, analogies, etc... If you don't know then say you don't know. Then invite on Kimberly Crenshaw to explain Critical Race Theory.

[@loganhurley5590]

I made it to the end! I'm the one!

[@caricatureparty]

Is David at the library?

[@kicsms_science3729]

Super late to this party, but I think it could be helpful for your podcast overall to have someone to consult with whenever there are science topics since you all have specialized in other disciplines. For example, finding “an embryo is alive” in a bio textbook isn’t a “gotcha” - any scientist would identify a zygote or embryo or fetus as alive. The question, then, is whether it has rights as a *person* (which is a religious & political debate, not a science debate).

[@simplyafederalist]

What a dishonest explanation of Critical Theory. Its easy. Critical Theory interprets a persons actions and behavior purely based on the racial or ethnic group they belong to, putting it in mostly the context of how the group treated other groups historically speaking. That is you are now judged on the group you belong to and mostly on historically how that group was treated. So you are no longer judged as an individual and on your own personal actions. It completely erases any concept of the individual. All now someone interprets and see their relationship or what you are really purely based on the group or groups created by man that they now assign you. It pisses on the basic message of the cross in that we are all the same and equal and judged on our individual actions. That is our Kingdom is Gods not any other. What ever identity we had before American, Black, White, Poor Rick, Minority, Oppressor, victim, leader, criminal ect, That is no longer our identity but our Identity is now we are now all children of God no better or worse than any other believer. Critical Race Theory is a direct attack on the Cross itself and why Jesus died for our sins. It destroys equality under the cross and all of us having the same inheritance since our father is God. In a Christian prospective it now says you are now different in the kingdom of God because of the sins of your group.

[@birdseyeview4406]

Critical Theory is no attack on the cross. Every time I hear Christians say this I cringe with embarrassment. It’s like they are using every ounce of breath to deny racism exist.

[@justiceperhay8328]

Marx went to seminary and was inspired by the book of Acts when he wrote his theory for Marxism...

[@marcelwillieniles3816]

The only thing he lacked was the SAVIOR which is JESUS CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT to lead him in his study of Acts and the REST of the New Testament...

[@tylerharrison5189]

What is a concise definition of CRT

[@RickyHarline]

"Critical race theory (CRT)[1] is a theoretical framework in the social sciences that examines society and culture as they relate to categorizations of race, law, and power.[2][3] It began as a movement in American law schools in the mid- to late 1980s as a reworking of critical legal theory on race issues[4] - which itself was introducing new frameworks to the legal field, such as postmodernism, queer theory, and post-colonialism. As the word "critical" suggests, both theoretical frameworks are rooted in critical theory, a social philosophy which argues that social problems are influenced and created more by societal structures and cultural assumptions than by individual and psychological factors." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory It's a tool for understanding how race and power interact.

[@bearcubdaycare]

Science says that single cell life is present at conception. Followed soon by blob of cells life. Then at some point by fishlike life. Eventually looking a lot like a post birth human after various phases. But of course eggs and sperm could be called life. Millions of the latter die, and dozens of the former. Possibly a more complicated topic.

[@christicordova]

Omg you guys... I have been feeling like God weirdly called me to Florida to minister to the people here, and I've been feeling crazy for thinking that. (I met my husband in Chicago but he's ultra from Central Florida so that's where we will always live.) But you guys joking about being called to rural America hit so close to home for me. Even if it was just a joke, I think that may have been what happened to me, haha.

[@Fallacyfinder]

Ah yes the damage control episode

[@junahbirchwater8514]

The best critics of critical race theory are atheists like James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose.

[@DeJay14]

14:44 I disagree Skye, watch "By What Standard" it shows Critical Theory was an ammendment put forth in 2019 that has been opposed by many. This has been a year in the making. 20:10- on Abortion, you forget laws are in place to actually protect that sin remember. Thats how systems work. You have to borrow from Critical Race Theory in order to justify systematic racism without a law currently in place in 2020. Im concerned that the bibles dealing with race wont be seen as sufficent when we add the "tool" of Critical Race Theory. Which gets a very glossy definition here. David Fitch never really denies the negative aspects and philophies of Critical Theory, he basically praises it and says we should embrace it, very concerning.

[@ethanvelez2462]

Amendment to what? Critical theory is an academic concept used most often in the fields sociology and anthropology. It's not an amendment to anything.

[@DeJay14]

@@ethanvelez2462 Again, i assume most people here dont actually look into conservative Christian views from the source, just peoples interpretations of them. Ammendment 9 was a proposal from the sbc one year ago. Watch "By What Standard" so you can see it from both sides

[@ethanvelez2462]

@@DeJay14 Do you mean resolution 9? The resolution the SBC put forth about Critical Race Theory? That's not what CRT is. That's a group of people who honestly don't understand it very well describing it.

[@DeJay14]

@@ethanvelez2462 i was responding to Skye acting like this conversation in the sbc is somehow because of something Trump said, as if were completely new.

[@weston.weston]

Skye: where have you ever heard that people are either victim or victimizer? Black people (I am black and civically engaged) have never seen themselves as victims. What specific texts, articles, speeches are you referring. Black people have had to exist in an oppressive system/society but they have never described themselves as victims.

[@veggiet2009]

Bond Villains wear Miami M shirts?

[@jjdiaz667]

About the discussion in the first half. You seem to assume that pastors and church leaders actual want to say something counter cultural and just don't out of fear. While that certainly must be true in some cases I think you missed the perhaps larger percentage of pastors who are just as steeped in the same stew as their congregation. The pastor who binge watches Fox news all week is ill-prepared to shepherd his flock in any other direction.

[@aosidh]

not sure if this is the right crowd, but Skye looks like Evil Billy Corgan (good thing) in this ep

[@hnewbold2123]

Maybe that’s why white Christians have failed so miserably of late....because it shows our weakness and inability to do what is right outside of God at work within us. That way when God does it through the church, it will be obvious that it’s not the church. It’s all Him.

[@floydwhite1338]

🤣

[@andybanman260]

Wow, the title of this podcast needs to change from Holy Post to Worldly Post. Nothing holy about shat was said here. Holy in the context of scripture means to be set apart from the World, this is just a bunch of secular mainstream talking points from the world that hates Christ in order to defend racism.

[@crafterman2345]

When I first found this channel, I thought it was going to be politically balanced and criticize both sides equally, but from what I can tell, it mainly criticizes the right and makes excuses for the left.

[@veggiet2009]

The question I have to ask is: What if one side has a time when it is more wrong than the other? Do you expect them to criticize both sides equally in that case? Politically I'm in the middle. I know because I have frequent disagreements with republicans who think I'm unfair to republicans and I have disagreements with democrats who think I'm unfair to democrats. A political quiz put me very near the center and down a little towards the libertarian side, and I believe that is an accurate assessment of my worldview. When I look out at the world I see one major unfairness in our modern culture: Christians are assumed to be right-leaning if not Republican. So from my viewpoint any Christian who has a disagreement with the right, is perceived as being more biased to democrats. I also know that this podcast definitely has in the past criticized both sides, when either side disagrees with christianity. So I would say they do a good job at being politically balanced and fair.

[@troybody6662]

If you say Jesus is Lord then you have to prove that "tangibility". How is their atheist if Jesus is reality? You believe, because you are afraid if you die you will go to hell if you don't. That's your belief. I am not knocking that, but it is by "FAITH" that we believe that Jesus rose from the grave. There is NO evidence of this. So, you are talking gobblety goop. NOW! The rest of the Bible is factual. SO< PROVE IT! Prove Noah's ark?

[@Lizz7711]

Except we actually should reject the xmas tree since the Buble is clear we are not to worship YHVH as the pagans worship their gods (Dt 12;31). Not to mention the whole concept of xmas is for someone else’s birthday ( the god mithra) and is observed by atheist Muslims and every other religion because it is NOT really at all about Yeshua. But I agree with you all on the rest :)

[@Lizz7711]

Jeremiah 10;3-4 (speaking of xmas trees) Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by the signs in the heavens, though the nations themselves are terrified by them. 3For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut down a tree from the forest; it is shaped with a chisel by the hands of a craftsman. 4They adorn it with silver and gold and fasten it with hammer and nails, so that it will not totter.

[@kwilljr05]

Thank God I got my tree from Walmart

[@yamilagosto1535]

5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field, their idols cannot speak;(A) they must be carried because they cannot walk.(B) Do not fear them; they can do no harm(C) nor can they do any good.”(D) Next verse makes it clear they are talking about idols. I don’t know bout you but Christmas trees aren’t idols