439 24GHz Radar Presence Detector that Works (LD2410)

[@hi-link4092]

Hi Andreas, really appreciate your time and dedication to do such video for our sensor module LD2410, you are so great. you know and explain this module better than our engineers.☺☺

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you! Now we would be interested what your engineers do to solve the issues I mentioned in the video ;-)

[@hi-link4092]

@@AndreasSpiess yes, we are testing here and update you the results.

[@enricobernardini557]

​@@AndreasSpiess I got an ld2410B (bluetooth) thanks to your video. Regards the issues you point to at kzbin.info/www/bejne/mnLdeYumhZh5mas minutes, it seems to me that the first event to switch from green state (output 0) must be a motion event. After that, the sensor needs a motion OR motionless trigger (before timeout expires) to keep the output pin HIGH. In my opinion it is a good behaviour: if someone entered in the room he/she can stay in the room :-) , the motionless triggers can be ignored otherwise (so you can set the thresold lower). What do you think about? Thank for your nerdcool channel :-D!

[@dan-nutu]

One quick question for the engineers: can 2 or more LD2410 sensors correctly operate in adjacent rooms or do they interfere with each other? Thanks

[@hi-link4092]

@@dan-nutu Hi Dan, the space between two modules is more than 1.5M and the antenna surface of the module cannot be placed directly,thanks.

[@atomikrobot300099]

Perfect! I’ve been meaning to replace my study’s, workshop’s and kitchen’s PIR sensors with mmWave presence detection. You can’t beat the value of these modules!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Good idea!

[@peter.stimpel]

I really like your no ads policy, support well deserved! Now I found my answer, maybe. We are in the middle of planning our new business building. During one of the meetings, the technical expert came up with the question how to switch on/off lights in restrooms. In our old building, you have to move from time to time while doing the "business". This results in the need to wave to the sensor when it takes longer, or you are sitting in the dark. The expert said there are sensors which do not need that waving action anymore, and I was asking myself how this works. Seems, your video delivers a possible answer.

[@AndreasSpiess]

This 24GHz technology probably became "ripe" over the last months. Last year, I saw some 60$ sensors in this frequency range and found it too expensive for general use. With the new price point it became interesting.

[@blakadders]

There's a glut of mmWave devices from Tuya and Aqara made their own so now a few manufacturers appeared online with their products like HLK, MicRadar and LeapMMW. There's a selection of specialised ones for sleep, heartbeat or fall detection as well as 60GHz models. Personally I'm waiting for the people counter from MicRadar

[@byronwatkins2565]

If they used a triangle wave instead of a sawtooth, then the distance information changes sign (and order) for the second half of the period and the Doppler part is the same. Thus, each could be measured accurately and independently. There will still be an aliasing problem as distance increases enough that more than a half period propagation delay accrues. This can be mitigated by using multiple triangle waves (for high accuracy) or by increasing the triangle period until the returning signal of distant objects is seldom detectable.

[@AndreasSpiess]

You are right. Sophisticated wave forms can be used to extract more information. I assume the frequency can be chosen from the outside of the radar chip and the ADC signal can be read, too. So a lot is possible. We will see what people do with this technology...

[@a930913]

I have made an integration for Home Assistant for the LD2410B; the Bluetooth version. It should automatically pick up the sensor via Bluetooth and offer to adopt it. It will be released in version 2023.2. Thanks for bringing this sensor to my attention Andreas!

[@AndreasSpiess]

So I have to try it out. I also have the BLE version...

[@dartfrogdk]

i got the ld2410B i can pick it up using my phone but in homeassistant it say no unconfigured devices

[@assassinlexx1993]

If you use Rcwl- 0516 chip. They can" see" through dry wall , wood. They are prefect for burglar sensors. As they are hidden inside walls etc.

[@oscarpeters1351]

Those work great, but do not have motionless detection in them

[@bjornroesbeke]

I don't know if the LD2410 module is any better but the RCWL-0516 modules that i have will also detect movement in other directions than directly towards the sensor.

[@AndreasSpiess]

All radars should "see" through thin walls. However, I do not know how good 24GHz works. They provide information of which plastic you should use for the enclosure. So there is an influence...

[@Europhile]

Andreas - I admire your patience having read through the questions.

[@AndreasSpiess]

This is part of my fun!

[@keen2461]

Hey Andreas....just wanted to say I want to be like you when I grow up (though you're only a few years older than myself😀). I really appreciate the time and dedication you put into these useful videos. May God keep you healthy and with such great spirit way beyond when we have quantum microcontrollers!! Cheers from Colombia.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you for your nice words! Indeed, live can be rewarding also for old people like me. So there is hope ;-)

[@zyghom]

Super nice video Andreas (as usual). However, as you mentioned: the biggest advantage of PIR over these radar based sensor is the current consumption: I am down to 60uA for both: ESP32 sleeping and PIR SR-602. So they can work on battery. This one (and the others on 2.4GHz) are operating at around 1000x higher current so battery for 2 days ;-(

[@AndreasSpiess]

You are right. I thought I mentioned this fact.

[@tarakivu8861]

Unlike a PIR-Sensor which has to be enabled all the time to notice differences, this one probably works if you only turn it on sporadically to check if something changed.

[@cchance]

@@tarakivu8861 Was going to ask if this isn't the case can't a loop be created? PIR Sensor for initial detection, triggers the 24g to start watching, it kicks on every 60 seconds or so checks for motion or motionless to be active still, if it isn't it disables it's restart interval until the next PIR interval triggers to tell it to start monitoring again?

[@AndreasScheucher]

But using them with higher energy consumption still makes sense when the controlled device also has high energy consumption (eg. kW range). Then for sure every minute saved is worth the consumption of the sensor...

[@felix3317]

@@cchance I guess the question is: how long is the boot time for the 24G?

[@PimentinhaPT]

Nicely done and you found a way to be on the sofa as part of the testing process, thats a win win scenario, keep up the good work

[@AndreasSpiess]

Definitively a win-win situation ;-)

[@xDR1TeK]

Wow Andreas you're on a whole other plane of existence. Brilliant work.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you!

[@wrbrower]

Andreas, thank you for this. Ordered six with your link. After experimenting, I may ruggedize these for car backup sensors being the bumper cover.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Look at the datasheet where they show you which plastic cover is good and which one is not

[@anonymoususer6448]

Solution for "PIR and sun" problem? Thank you Andreas for doing all the leg work again. We can stand on your shoulders one more time. Great research and great verifiable, information. From a true engineer ! Thank you Last winter I had installed PIR sensors around the house. They worked fine till this summer where the sun, or the movement of hot air, gave me a ton of false alerts. As you said: if it has not been tested.... I was going to experiment with Ultrasonic sensors, but now that I have seen your video, I may try the LD2410 first

[@AndreasSpiess]

So you are a happy person living in a warm country ;-)

[@anonymoususer6448]

@@AndreasSpiess not that far, just Belgium ;-)

[@wojciechwaga1587]

Dziękujemy.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Dziękuję za Twoje wsparcie!

[@michaegi4717]

In general FMCW-Radars can do crazy things, if you combine them with intelligent software. If you assume that objects don't change their velocity extremely fast, you can use a set of frequency modulations with different ramps. With this trick you can detect distance and velocity of several objects. For a long time this was the technology for radar sensors for advanced driver assistance systems in cars and trucks.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Good to know that this technology has even more potential! Maybe in the next chip revision ;-)

[@pizzablender]

I think a sine wave FM can be used, correct?

[@michaegi4717]

@@pizzablender Usually they use liniear ramps with changing gradients. The frequency shift is a combination of time of flight and doppler-effect. For each echo you you just get a combined information if distance and velocity... combining different gradients enable to calculate the velocity and distance seperately. A saw tooth-pattern is possible, but I think a series of positive gradients is more common. A true sine wave FM would make it close to impossible to do the calculations. And I guess that the constantly changing echos will make it hard to receive a significant power in a specific frequency.

[@PhG1961]

Awesome product and a great video. Recently I bought a few radar sensors, but this model looks much more promising. I need to tinker with this !!!

[@AndreasSpiess]

And doing some tests is not too expensive...

[@PerfectInterview]

Here’s a tip, if you mount a PIR sensor on a servo, you can move the sensor in a scan pattern and get a presence detection even if the person is not moving.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Interesting idea!

[@dan-nutu]

Interesting indeed. Wouldn't it generate (more) false detections though? If there are (larger) objects with different temperatures (e.g. radiators) those would appear as "moving" to the sensor

[@AndreasSpiess]

@@dan-nutu This movement is probably slow.

[@efimovv]

Very promising sensors! I ordered 2 more expensive ones but not yet test them. But they already have kind of working ESPHome integration with settings.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Cool. Now you have to make them work ;-)

[@sahilkarni1550]

so wats the difference between those expensive once and this have you texted it yet ?

[@albanprada7183]

Thanks a lot! Excellent video. My question: Is it possible to use that sensor for people counting? - Bus passenger counting.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Maybe. If you can separate them enough.

[@Davvg]

Great video! Also, I really appreciate that you reply to so many comments!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you! Yes, I try to answer all comments.

[@JohnBaxendale]

As ever, you seem to create a video on something I've been looking at, it's as if you know! Awesome!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Glad I could help!

[@effendyabdullah]

Should try the LD2410B, you can configure the sensitivity using the Bluetooth App. I'm using LD2410B in my 2 bedrooms connected to ESP32. It could also be used standalone without an MCU so a great candidate for battery operated Bluetooth radar presence sensor.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Do you have more information?

[@effendyabdullah]

@@AndreasSpiess check my channel there is a short video of the app. I think i left a purchase link there. Edit: the purchase link is on the comment of this "trashy" video ;-) -> kzbin.infowgP3yod4ALI If you need a translated screenshot of the app, tell me.

[@Barc0d3]

Wait, whats the diff between the LD2410 and the LD2410B? Only the bluetooth capability?

[@effendyabdullah]

@@Barc0d3 I don't see any diff using it the past few months. LD2410B has Bluetooth which is much more convenient when setting up the sensitivity.

[@remy44444]

Amazing and very informative. When I encountered this problem I went with motion sensor + shock sensor ( on floor ) whenever someone existing the room and no motion determine after a minute the room is empty. Same goes with doors monitor for the shower. Btw, Alexa dot3 has microwave sensor, but it's unreliable and takes 30 minutes to turn off.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Interesting! So far nobody mentioned shock sensors for this purpose!

[@marcs.8384]

Hello Andreas. Thank you for this very clear presentation. I just received the LD2410B Kit and tried to install it. It perfectly detects presence and movements. The problem is that it does only communicate its data through USB cables. It does NOT PAIR to any Bluetooth device (laptop, phone, Raspberry Pi 4B with BT). For example, I can integrate it into Home Assistant/ESPHome, but use it ONLY when it is connected to my Raspberry Pi by cable. Any help would be more than welcome. Thanks!

[@AndreasSpiess]

The "B" version is only laying on my table. I never tried it :-(

[@ted_van_loon]

1,25cm wavelength(1.25cm to inches for people in usa). that is around 1cm of precision with even a single one of those(which around 1cm but then converted to American units for people in USA). however the interesting thing is when you use it as a phased array by using multiple of them(similar to the 5g antennas in a smartphone) then precision of smaller than 1mm can be reached easily due to the ability to focus the radiowaves on small sections and move those focus sections. however in my case what I was mostly interested in now since modern smartphones already can make such 3d scans at around 0.1mm resolution easily(yes it is there, the software for it is there as well, this can be used to detect problems in the body and diseases due to being capable of making such detailed 3d scans but also inside of you, but somehow you are not allowed to use it since the 5g phased arrays in your phone are typically propetairy black boxes put into other propetairy black boxes that prevent you from using it, but you have no way of knowing if other people are using it on your phone, so support foss, especially such technologies which can also be very dangerous and privacy intrusive(such advanced 3d scans even through your clothing and body, and still having decent range is a serious privacy and security risk) it should be gnu+foss), to instead just make simple 3d scans the easy way by using 3 sensors to get width height and depth, this also takes way less compute power. only using 3 sensors or 3 measure points to make 3d scans with around 1,25 to 5cm precision is still very useful for example or motion tracking, fun, looking through things(like x-ray glasses but then actually working), etc

[@Europhile]

Metric is so much easier. I can't understand why any country hangs onto imperial. Mind you, we still buy that vital fluid in pints here in the UK🍺

[@the-matrix-has-you]

These are the Problems Andreas yes. Good touch on a subject👍 our challange to find or modify low consumption current cheap sensor is still the case.The new Panasonic sensors are really good with 1uA and 2uA versions but it is still so expensive for a avarage maker like us. So I have gone into the modification direction. I have Managed to make HC-SR-501 to work with 3.3volts by removing the Zener Diode and LDO and Bridging Vin and Vout of LDO pins.I have Managed to lower its current consumption this way now HC-SR-501 consumes around 38 or 39uA at idle (when movement is not detected) but if it detects movement it can even go up to 300 uA not very good for battery Powered operation in my book. Maybe those new found Radar sensors are the new saviour maybe... I hope so. Thanks Andreas Spiess for your awesome videos! Great content as always!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Your solution is good. Aqara Zigbee PIR sensors are also a good choice if you can live with only detecting movement. They consume nearly nothing. Amazing tech. And cheaper than the Panasonic sensor alone ;-)

[@the-matrix-has-you]

@@AndreasSpiess maybe I should buy one and one zigbee gateway reverse engineer and understand how they decreased consumption that much. 👍Thanks for the tips Andreas your content is Superb as always. I have also lived in Switzerland for 2 year in Grabünden Region near St.Moritz in boarding School. Love your Country so much The Nature and the Swiss people in southern parts are always greet and say Grüß Dich and Smile😀 no matter if you are stranger or not. I see Switzerland as my second country. You Swiss folks are really kind and have a good understanding of how to be a good Human Being. Swiss are always helpfull and kind. Thanks Andreas. Every country should take lessons of principles what you guys have done.🇨🇭🇨🇭🇨🇭See you again until next video of The Guy with a Swiss Accent🖐️

[@AndreasSpiess]

@@the-matrix-has-you Thank you for your kind words. Yes, we love peace. But I am sure you find nice people also in your country! I learned that they are everywhere. I have plenty of nice people like you from all over the world commenting on my videos...

[@the-matrix-has-you]

@@AndreasSpiess Thanks Andreas, I have a new Record to announce! I used my new pir sensors AM312's and modified them.For those who are using AM312 PIR Here is how to lower consumption even more and make it work properly with 3.3v first remove LDO HT30 respectively and bridge Vin and Vout then add 1uF capacitor to Vout and GND pins and remove the only one smd resistor as it is labeled R1 and bridge resistor pins with little solder. Then AM312 will work much much more stable plus it will consume around 6 or 7uA😀 now with AM312 pir sensor and my custom wemos d1 mini wake up shield and wemos d1 mini with LDO removal consumes around 163uA with my new calculations over 470 days of running capable sensor with a single charge! Success👍

[@eskimojo97]

Dear Mr. Spiess, thank you so much for making this video and explaining about LD2410 so clearly. After having struggled with an RCWL-0516 with so many false alerts, I ordered the LD2410. After hooking everything up (Wemos D1 Mini, and the LD2410 module, that's it), nothing seems to be getting detected. Is it mandatory that I update the firmware before it is used in any way? Out-of-the-box implementation doesn't seem to work. Would appreciate any insights, at your convenience.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I did not update anything. Maybe you check your wiring. Changing RX/TX sometimes help if it is mixed. Otherwise you have to see what is coming from the sensor in its TX pin.

[@raysieber9233]

Far too subscribers few for the value of your content, great video

[@AndreasSpiess]

:-) Thank you!

[@charlesurrea1451]

there was a company called Radionics alarm. They had an early microwave field disruption sensor. Much like the old Viper car alarm. Sadly it went through walls and had to be custom tuned for every sensor.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Radar usually works through walls. But the higher the frequency, the lower this feature. And with today's software adjustments it is probably easier and cheaper than back in the day.

[@Designments]

Thanks for the video. I'm using an LD2410 with ESPHOME, but using the UART and letting the firmware do the heavy lifting. Works really well for controlling lights in kitchen/workshop type environments.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you for sharing your experience!

[@peterkuemmerli7695]

Dear Mr. Spiess many thanks for this informative video about the LD2410 Sensor. With some shielding it is quite easy to make it sensitive in small angle direction and not sensitive from the back-side. It does not work with 12V DC, I, was baking one sensor already, take 5V DC... About soldering it is easy on top side plus = at the capacitor / signal = outside pin. solder minus on the back side by the testing contactors. I use this great sensor for my time - capturing project, it works perfect on a distance of 3m.. like a laser beam... If you wanna test it his way, i can send you some 3D Printing models... Best regards, Peter

[@AndreasSpiess]

I would be interested in the 3D models because I got now LD2410B (bluetooth) sensors. Maybe stuff for another video. Yo can contact me on Facebook Messenger or Twitter

[@peterkuemmerli7695]

@@AndreasSpiess Ok, was sending you a message trough FB, the STL files and photos are coming soon. i am looking forward, to integrate this smart , robust and cheap sensor into bluetooth networks, can be a good additional sensor for target recognition as a feature in my time-measuring application . Many thanks and best regards, Peter

[@galmagen6212]

thank you for taking the time for exploring the modules and explaining them as you do, we are actually learning from you, thank you! is it safe for constant use for years in distance of 0.3m between human and sensor?

[@AndreasSpiess]

I think so. They do not emit a lot of power.

[@galmagen6212]

@@AndreasSpiess do you know what is the standard for safety using radar ?

[@AndreasSpiess]

@@galmagen6212 No, I also do not care too much.

[@DenisWilsonSouzaRosa]

Your videos are pretty good btw! keep going!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you!

[@jafinch78]

I wonder which 24GHz modules are being used for contactless hearth beat sensing? Seems these can be capable of detecting at least that electrophysiological signal, if not others... though I haven't read through the spec's yet.

[@AndreasSpiess]

As I mentioned: The higher the frequency, the higher the sensitivity. With some filtering and close to the chest it is maybe possible to monitor breathing.

[@jafinch78]

@@AndreasSpiess Wondering if there are cheaper sourced modules available like the seeedstudio 24GHz & 60GHz modules? Interesting reading into and seeing even some online performing with 2.4GHz modules. Thanks for sharing and detailing! As always, great content and awesome to see your channel growing sir!

[@vazquezjm]

Hi Andreas. Excellent video as usual. I just a couple of these sensors and was wondering if you have done any testing on human vs dog/cat detection? Basically, I'd like to trigger an automation based on that. Thank you!

[@AndreasSpiess]

No. We have no dog and our cat passed away :-(

[@vazquezjm]

@@AndreasSpiess so sorry 😔

[@elementaldraco]

Intrigued to know how this performs in environments where there maybe high levels of atmospheric disturbance. Such as clean air movement that can't be blocked off. My workshop is in an old barn.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do not know. But radio waves usually are not disturbed too much by dry air.

[@efimovv]

Some 60GHz models states they can detect heartbeat to the level of alarm if it out of range. If that true then they will work correctly in noisy envirionment.

[@MikeNugget]

Awesome review! Fun fact: you can track moving objects in the living room just with your 2.4Ghz router 😮

[@AndreasSpiess]

That saves you money if you know how to do it...

[@geri777]

"Radar Presence Detector" - und ich dachte, jetzt gibt's ein nützliches Radarwarner Projekt 😁 🏎

[@AndreasSpiess]

Wäre auch eine Möglichkeit gewesen. Leider illegal wo ich lebe :-(

[@drwoo]

Do I understand it correctly that this sensor draws constantly approx. 0.4 Watt (see 11:08, average 80 mA, I assume at 5V)? Every tenth of a Watt counts these days, especially if the device runs 24/7/365 and when potentially having an army of these installed in the house.

[@AndreasSpiess]

You are right with the consumption. Everyone has to decide which devices are enhancing their life. In our home we consume ca. 200 watts continuous power for all 24h. It consists of more than 20 devices which include refrigerators, heating, Wi-Fi, and my Raspberries and ESPs. This is about 40% of our daily consumption of 12kWh, BTW.

[@nkronert]

I wonder if it would be possible to reach the same goal by using PIR in combination with light barrier at the entrance(s) and some clever algorithm to weed out reference counting errors.

[@gominosensei2008]

Two laser beams at the door could count people going in or out based on the order of triggering them....

[@AndreasSpiess]

You always can count. As you write, you probably lose control quite fast if two persons are too close...

[@gominosensei2008]

@@AndreasSpiess I suppose some clever use of interrupts and a counter should take care of that particular problem. But the reason I never built it for myself is that in order to install it to work properly and not count separate feet or arms going in and out it would be advised to bounce it around the doorframe with small mirrors a couple of times and the installation would be quite tricky to pull off and not at all universal or easy. It would also require some careful drilling to install it in the door frame, unless you are prepared to have it stick out in quite an unsightly manner. Either way, it would be probably a fun weekend project but I can't immagine this ever becoming close to a versatile enough product.

[@nkronert]

@@AndreasSpiess or of someone walks in swinging the arm forward while passing the barrier. But the use case "person has been detected by PIR but hasn't left yet through the barrier" may be reasonably easy to implement. But yes, you need some way to correct the count when it is off by some reason.

[@nerdwerx2292]

Oh... No WAY!?Wow, I see my favorite sensor has been upgraded!I will definitely have to pick up a couple of these new sensors ! But as @Assassinlexx mentions in one of the comments "RWLS-0516 will detect through drywall" .That is an important feature for stealth deployment or burglary situations.I hope this functionality is available in the 24Ghz detectors. 🤔

[@AndreasSpiess]

You have to try. 24GHz is quite high and they have a chapter about housing material in the spec sheet. So material of the wall seems to be important.

[@MathieuFRAPPIER]

Thanks!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you for your support!

[@levran75]

Many thanks for the video, very informative. Tell me, did you have problems with overheating when powered by 5 volts? This module with esp8266 works fine for me now, but the heating around 40-50 degrees Celsius is a little disturbing.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I probably did not check the temperature

[@eskimojo97]

@levran75 I hooked it up to the 5v pin of a Wemos D1 Mini and the LD2410 felt a little warm within the first minute of hooking it up. Thought that was unusual. I've not had it on for a long time and I wonder how the module will hold up when deployed for a longer time.

[@LoopOnTech]

Hi Andreas! This is a great video and very useful while designing a custom board for the LD2410. Thank you

[@AndreasSpiess]

Good luck with your board!

[@EdFrench_uk]

Lovely addition to my armoury of random sensor for projects!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Good luck with the project!

If this thing is so sensitive, would it not give false positives due to flys moving? Really nice video. As always..

[@AndreasSpiess]

Flies are probably too small if they are in a distance.

[@wolfganglienbacher]

FYI, I bought the tuya model you described, it had the same main pcb and radio module, but a different radar board on it. Seems to be a MICRADAR R24DVD1 in my case ...

[@AndreasSpiess]

what is your experience with it?

[@wolfganglienbacher]

@@AndreasSpiess I find it overly sensitive. It also senses presence of a person in the room behind me and it has quite a long cooldown time. The bare LD2410 module on a D1 Mini works better for me, plus I can configure the detection parameters. But of course that lacks the nice looking (oversized) case.

[@wolfganglienbacher]

Oh, and someone made an esphome component that lets you configure the 2410 via homeassistant and log all values at the same time. Kind of beats the tuya solution by a safe margin.

[@AndreasSpiess]

@@wolfganglienbacher Thank you!

[@wjn777]

Great video, thanks for sharing. Very interesting sensor, I assume it will work well through a plastic enclosure

[@AndreasSpiess]

It should. But read the data sheet. They have a chapter about choosing the right material.

[@wjn777]

@@AndreasSpiess Thank you for the advice Andreas

[@alessandroalfonzetti3892]

Very interesting! But can it "see" multiple targets? Or is there a value that can make you understand that there are multiple targets?

[@sunhilldiy]

good job! can the LD2410 be used independently just ESP32+LD2410 without home assistant? what's your measurement between GND and OUT during testing? Thanks.

[@klassichd10]

Many Thanks! Very interesting sensor! Maybe it could be used as a rain sensor, too? Currently, my motion sensors mostly are PIR sensors, because of low power, battery operation and zigbee compatibility. I have one or more of them in every room. All of my lights are controlled by motion sensors and ioBroker. Very convenient.

[@AndreasSpiess]

1. They seem to be quite sensitive to motion. So maybe it is worth a try with rain. 2. I love these Zigbee PIR sensors, too. They run forever on a coin cell...

[@klassichd10]

@@AndreasSpiess @ 2: yes indeed, they are not very power hungry. Most of them, I could hide close to a piece of furniture and could also hide 2 AA batteries in the furniture. So, the batteries run even longer and I do not have to touch and readjust the sensors when changing batteries.

[@mertdemirX]

Hi dear Andreas, You said the output power is low. What can we do to increase this output power? Thank you for your good videos.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do not think this is possible without creating a completely new device.

[@tobimai4843]

Loxone has Motion + Noise sensors, that's also a smart concept IMO

[@AndreasSpiess]

A noise sensor for sure would create a good signal for the TV. At least the films my wife watches ;-)

[@dansilful]

@Andreas Servus! Can you say anything about interference if two modules were next to each other? As they cover only 60 degree I was think about extending the width with two modules. But in some cases there would be an overlap

[@AndreasSpiess]

You have to try yourself. I did not test this scenario.

[@userou-ig1ze]

Thanks for this, and your research summary. I hope there's a follow up video of the version in your living room (aka 'official' or 'release' version)

[@AndreasSpiess]

We will see...

[@DennysatriaIka]

Hey Andreas, Good info on how to utilize LD2410 sensors, just want to ask, have the bug in the firmware regarding motionless sensor not triggering at certain gates been fixed yet? Cheers!

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do not know. I did not order newer sensors.

[@bteixeira2013]

Thanks for your lessons! I bought a few of them, I managed to get the headers unsoldered as well as to 2 more components... But how safe are this 24GHz sensors to be used on an office were we spend 10h/day? And on children's room? 73 CT2HUU

[@janzhang9432]

If you can put this little thing into a tin can (as wave guide), maybe you can increase the measuring range. a wave guide can focus the energy of microwave.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Maybe. I did not try (yet)

[@lohikarhu734]

It looks to me that it could be interesting/useful to find out where, and when, the power is used, to perhaps architect a system that operates in a pulsed mode, depending on how quickly you need to sense activity or occupancy... Thanks for a good look at this, it seems that a bit of Geduld and prerserverance were needed!

[@AndreasSpiess]

I am sure these radar chips are quite capable. Maybe we will get a module where the radar is not connected to a MCU but to a programmable MCU. Then we could do experiments with changing the frequency etc.

[@dfgdfg_]

I don't know why, the image of you laying down on the sofa at 0:14 was really funny 🤣

[@AndreasSpiess]

:-)

[@MisterkeTube]

Just wondering: could you not pair this with a PIR and have the PIR powered constantly, but not powering the radar by default. When you move into the area, the PIR would pick that up and the uP turns on the device you want to control and enters monitoring mode. During that mode, it every N minutes of "idle" time (with the uP in deep sleep with a watchdog mechanism and external pin IRQ trigger) from the PIR powers the radar for a short period to check whether there's still someone near. If not, it turns off the device and goes back into simple PIR monitoring mode. If there is still someone near and PIR again remains inactive for N minutes, you repeat the cycle. Would that not allow having a detector that can be powered by a battery for a decent amount of time?

[@AndreasSpiess]

I am sure you could do that if you want. You decide how long the battery lasts (depends on battery size and duration you are in the room).

[@scienceoftheuniverse9155]

Exactly what I was thinking to try

[@IAmBartokaj]

I saw your cat in the video -- does it also trigger the sensor when walking (or sitting) in front of it? I need a presence sensor that will not get triggered by my cats, and I've been hoping for someone to actually test this

[@AndreasSpiess]

Cats are much lighter, and their reflections are smaller. So you should be able to distinguish between humans and cats. I did not try.

[@diydsolar]

Hi, have you checked the low power consumption LD2410S version? Less than 1mA and (i think, same capabilities as LD2410).

[@AndreasSpiess]

No, but it seems to be an interesting alternative!

[@allaboutmygunner9762]

I purchased a few of these and found they did not work. Then I found a HW-MS03. Fantastic! Today I played with. Hi-Link HLK-LD2410C-P microwave sensor that. At 1st I thought there was something wrong with it. Always on! Then it occurred to me. I am in front of it, even motionless it was still on. I propped it next to my door with a mirror and went down the hallway. Once about 15 feet away, it went off. Works marvelous!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Strange that they did not work. But I agree, the HW MS03 are easier to use.

[@victorma2307]

@@AndreasSpiess is the HW-MS03 better or worst than the LD2410 in terms of accuracy, distance detection, interference, etc?

[@AndreasSpiess]

@@victorma2307 They are different, as you see in my videos

[@Honeypot-x9s]

Gives me ideas! wonder if we could DIY a radar system for the rear of our bikes like the Garmen VARIA radar system to detect cars approaching from behind which is great for lower visibility like rain and fog and snow and urban cycling where not always most obvious what cars behind you are doing.

[@tissuepaper9962]

Better to just ride against traffic.

[@Honeypot-x9s]

@@tissuepaper9962 illegal and somewhat inefficient here (and yes cops sometimes do enforce this over actually solving real problems here, they like easy targets). I have a Varia, it’s amazing and I wish this tech was more available for more people as I don’t even need to look back to know if I can dart across a road or not, it beeps at me and shows me on screen how many cars are behind me and how far each are on my cycling computer. I just love to see it implemented further and better to more people as it’s makes biking much more efficient and safer.

[@AndreasSpiess]

This radar system is astonishing, particularly its range. If it would not be so expensive, I would have done a teardown ;-) I have no clue how they achieve such a range.

[@tissuepaper9962]

@@Honeypot-x9s as more of a "trust but verify" kind of person, methinks I will stick to the old eyeballs and a mirror if I can't ride against traffic. I'm glad that that product works so well for you though, I think I'm just a little too distrusting of that kind of technological assistance. I find that I easily slip into complacency when relying on such a system, e.g. I absolutely hate blind spot detectors and backup cameras in cars.

[@Honeypot-x9s]

@@tissuepaper9962 I treat it more like blind spot monitoring on my car, if it alerts I don’t even need to check if I can merge the chances are strong I can’t as it doesn’t false that much. I just maintain my place until it gives me the okay then I check and make my move. Same with this.. if given an alert I know to tuck over to shoulder and maintain. don’t even need to double check mirrors or look back, and that’s well before the car is close enough to be annoyed at people cycling. And I don’t need to remember to look in mirrors sometimes you get so in the rhythm you can forgot for periods of time even Ebiking I been caught looking at scenery a bit too much. it let’s me know with alert tones and lights. I’ll admit it’s most effective on longer stretches vs urban but even so. this is also I think a great accessibility item too for people who may not be as able to turn and look behind them. Mirrors + a little radar like this adds so much security for those people that maybe forced to ride all year around because maybe let’s say “legal reasons” . You are right that people shouldn’t rely on it as it could become a single point of failure however, counter point is that I think it makes enough of a positive difference for people that it’s also worth it. Not like Tesla’s FSD/autopilot or Volvo’s pilot assist both of which I used and both of which I think are so inconsistent sometimes doing amazing other times actively trying to crash that they more dangerous than helpful I think.

[@TheEmbeddedHobbyist]

Would be interesting to know how it detects stationery objects, it must use the movement sensor to some how remember what a background signal looked like and then compare it with the new signal. So how long will it detect a motionless object before it becomes part of the background signal.

[@RobertSzasz]

Detects the phase difference from the returned FM not just TOF Look up fmcw radar

[@TheEmbeddedHobbyist]

​@@RobertSzasz So if i take a box in to the room and leave it there, there will always be a detected signal. At what point does that box become background and no longer a motionless object? So once i move a chair in the detection field! The system becomes useless as there will always be a motionless objected detected. There must be a point where the motionless object is dismissed and forms part of the new background. Am i getting it wrong, but to detect something you have to have two sources of information so a difference can be detected. Or it’s relying on only detecting a motionless object that still has some form of detectable movement. A human will never be totally motionless while alive, which could be why the motionless detection fails if the movement detector is affectively turned off. Still trying to get my head around the wording of FMCW, FM is normally described as continuous wave that is frequency modulated; CW is also normally described as a continuous wave that is 100% AM modulated. I.e. a pulse! So is FMCW a frequency modulated pulse? So it look like it's getting extra information from the TOF using the phase differences, as there will be a time difference between the sent pulse and the returned pulse due to the time of flight which will mean that there will be a phase difference between the two signals modulation frequencies. Still don’t understand how this is going to tell you there is a motionless object in the room, unless the device has a memory of what the room looked like before the object entered it. This is why i think the system need the movement detector to detect movement, so it can store record of the area scanned so it can do a comparison between them.

[@EnricoConca]

@@TheEmbeddedHobbyist Given that it is reported as a "life presence detector" it means that it distinguishes the presence of a live animal / human based on the fact that a live being is never fully still (breathing, heart rate) compared to inanimate object that are instead fully still.

[@RobertSzasz]

@@TheEmbeddedHobbyist CW is continuous wave, so it's always on rather than sending out a pulse and listening for reflections if sweeps its frequency, and by measuring how strong the signals at various frequency offsets are, you get the distance to reflections.

[@TheEmbeddedHobbyist]

@@EnricoConca That's my point, there needs to be a constant small detectable movement or it just becomes part of the background or it needs to compare one signal to a reference background signal.

[@tomsherwood4650]

Radio alitimeter runs at 4.3GHz, FM CW with 100 MHz deviation. The modulation is triangle wave, not sawtooth. Power output about 1 watt. Measures distance to ground comparing transmit frequency to reflected signal. It only cares about distance, not motion.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you for the additional information.

[@marcofe82]

Hi Andreas, thank you so much for the video and I wanna ask you a question, what do you mean for "slow moving objects"? I mean, how much slow? thank you!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Slow like a human, I think. But I cannot give you a number. The doppler effect adds to the distance and the sensor becomes less accurate.

[@blakadders]

I would strongly recommend against buying that Tuya sensor since the implementation of the mmWave radar is very limited. I did a review on it

[@dfgdfg_]

Is the review under your KZbin account?

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you for your info!

[@LongNguyen-ej8qe]

Hello. thanks for your video, i don't know if this sensor has any effect on health? Is it suitable for frequent exposure? Thanks for all the feedback.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Its signal is very weak. So no problem.

[@amgmg2521]

Thank you for the detailed review. Can it detect through walls as rcwl-0516? and what is the detection angle?

[@AndreasSpiess]

I did not try, but it should work through thin walls.

[@punkyproductions5153]

I like your steampunk attitude 🎩😎

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thanks!

[@jmr]

Very interesting! Presence detection is hard indeed.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I hope that these chips bring us closer to the resolution...

[@livetohash6152]

I got one (with I think 2.1 firmware) connected direct to Serial1 on my Mega, absolutely AMAZING! Needed to mod the cpp to fix up some things for debugging, but this thing is awesome!!! Can detect coming, going and I'm testing the energy for lateral, n formulas are working... This is well worth 7-9$US IMO 🎉🎉🎉

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you for sharing your experience!

[@VRNC-kn5tf]

Hello I would love to see a video about radar sensors that would be strong enough to be put into a array and potentially detect drones in the sky or birds and such.

[@AndreasSpiess]

These radars are extremely expensive. And need a license :-(

[@gltubes]

Motion sensors like this (or those from video 135 or 378) can be set in a kind of "listen only" mode, so that they can detect radio sources emitted by other sensors ?

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do not think so.

[@Robert-ul6tm]

Andreas, do you have a total security built using mmwave and lora to notify of home intrusion. I am usually within 15 kms from home but feel my home is being visited when I am not home. Iam thinking my cellular is being tracked or my car so I would like a secondary com to notify me if I put my phone in a faridy box. Can you use lora to communicate from mmwave sensors to sensor and then send a signal from the sensor web to a remote lora unit

[@AndreasSpiess]

I would add a camera to your home. Then you see who visit it when you are away. And: Your phone cannot be tracked when you switch it off.

[@Robert-ul6tm]

@@AndreasSpiess I would like to automate the cameras to a imput from the mmwave and be notified by lora that the system is on line, working due to a detection. I would like a 950? Hz? Imiter floodlight and capable cameras controlled by ladar for outside on my driveway, also reporting to me by lora. I am disabled and a senior, people have been preying on my camping gear, food supplies and gasoline. I need proof that this is happening. It appears that the second I leave my house it is possible someone is around. I am aware to several gangs in the neighborhood because Iam observant and a old boy scout. My hearing and vision is still acute but my body is functioning on a bad level, if I need to vacate it will be slow and in great pain.

[@nhanphanthanh6374]

Hello Andreas!, do you have documents to adjust the parameters on the app? I'm testing it, I don't know how to set the parameters, but now it keeps turning on and off

[@AndreasSpiess]

I linked everything I had in the video description.

[@tatali5276]

Andreas, it is cool work!

[@AndreasSpiess]

Thank you!

[@hobbykip]

This is awesome! I have used some RCWL-0516 in the house but I find them to have quite a lot of false triggers or no triggers. Hopefully this will decrease false positives without the need for a ugly PIR sensor. The nice thing about these things is that you can put them in a small space i.e. aluminium LED strip channels 🙂I've ordered the USB kit to tinker with it.

[@AndreasSpiess]

Tinkering is a good plan to find out how they behave in your situation...

[@DoktorJeep]

What makes you sure those triggers are false?

[@hobbykip]

@@DoktorJeep For my application they are false triggers. The sensitivity of those sensors are hard to adjust and may vary depending on many different parameters not really understood by me. I guess objects and object location already can influence the sensitivity.

[@wagnerfontes2]

Would it be possible to program zones in a DIY mm wave sensor connected to an ESP32 and HA? This seems to be an advantage of the commercial Aqara FP2, but it would be much more fun to have it in a DIY way...

[@AndreasSpiess]

I assume you can do that by evaluating the values provided by the sensor. Probably more in an ESP32 than in HA.

[@TheRealAnthony_real]

Best room presence detection so far is frigate and double-take, disadvantages are that you need RTSP cameras in every room and the whole setup ain't cheap

[@AndreasSpiess]

True

[@anli8006]

Hi Andreas. Do you know how the radar fills a non-moving human on a sofa? By reflection of radio wave? Looks unlikely - big metal frame in your sofa reflects a lot of energy. I have met the view that this is due to the movements of the heart or breathing. The radar senses movement and determines the frequency of movement. When the frequency is close to human breathing (or heart rate), then the person is detected. What do you think?

[@AndreasSpiess]

Radar cannot distinguish between metal and a human. You have to solve the problem differently

[@anli8006]

@@AndreasSpiess However, do you know how this radar recognises a non-moving human (presence and distance)?

[@melmaki1118]

If you want low power than many different 5.8GHz Doppler modules with FCC and different antenna patterns, similarly serial programmable, such as the HiLink LD012, only 68 uA compares to PIR? No range data o/p though, just sensitivity adjust.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do not know these sensors :-(

[@michaelwurzer6791]

Interesting, is there still a PIN or place in the ciruit where the pure doppler IF can be taken from?

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do not think so.

[@felixisme]

Is there any health concerns regarding use of radar sensors like this operating at 24ghz? I barely know anything about radio wave technology, so it's good to touch on before setting up constant exposure.

[@AndreasSpiess]

No. It transmits an extremely low power.

[@juanriofrio6872]

Hello.... I'm a follower of your videos. I would like to ask a question if I may please!.... Could you tell me please, how I can set the time to turn off once no human presence is detect. I haven't been able to find where you state the time.... Once I connect to the device via Bluetooth, I am not sure where to state the time off. Please, if you could direct me, I truly appreciate it very much. Thank you

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do this in my Arduino Sketch or in node-red. I do not know if they support such a command.

[@juanriofrio6872]

@@AndreasSpiess Bommer, anyway thank you for talking the time to let me know.... Cheers

[@Limprevisiblle]

Very nice video. Pity you don't talk enough about power consumption. I think it's topic that deserve a place in all your videos :) thanks anyway. Continuez comme ca :)

[@AndreasSpiess]

I included the diagram of the power consumption and said, it has to be connected to mains. From then on, I am no more interested in how much it consumes. It is anyway not a lot compared to all other devices.

[@Barc0d3]

@@AndreasSpiess What do you mean it HAS to be connected to mains? Cant it not run from a battery/powerbank/laptop usb? I am probably confused by mains, to me that implies I need a AC-DC adapter to use this

[@AndreasSpiess]

@@Barc0d3 Of course, it runs on batteries. Just big ones because of its high consumption.

[@tonytor5346]

Trying to build a radar system coupled with a directional laser to shoot down flies & other insects. Any plans to make a video about this? Many people like to be outside in the summer but mosquitos & other insects are a nuisance, especially at night. Any thoughts? We could use this to keep door open without having insects roaches & other pests!

[@AndreasSpiess]

My wife uses water fog against insects. She is sure that these animals then think it rains and go to another place ;-) And we have grids with small holes in front of all our windows to prevent them entering. Detecting and shooting these small animals would probably need a lot of tech. In every room ;-)

[@keen2461]

NASA would hire you immediately if you could pull that off!😄

[@Europhile]

I do worry about what people want to do with lasers bearing in mind how precious our eyesight is.

[@ziezee95]

Great, I want to ask if it detect human presence only or it can detect any movement around

[@AndreasSpiess]

It detects conductive materials (like metals or water in the body)

[@nigeljohnson9820]

Am i correcting in assuming that if you move your furniture about, you will trigger the alarm, unless you reprogram the sensor with the new distances? A significant new problem with PIR alarms, is that they cannot distinguish between warm bodies and background heat radiation in the very hot summer weather.

[@AndreasSpiess]

1. If your furniture contains conductive material: Yes 2. Where I live, unfortunately, I never had such false triggers of PIR sensors. But viewers in warmer countries report this issue. That is another advantage of the radars

[@nigeljohnson9820]

@@AndreasSpiess I was thinking of adjustable office chairs, and maybe test equipment. The PIR problem is a recent development in the UK, a consequence of global warming, and warmer summers. I wonder how well 24GHz works in a fog? ( thinking of drive light control.)

[@AndreasSpiess]

@@nigeljohnson9820 Water in the air probably reduces the range. But you have to test.

[@mohammedmohsen723]

Hi Andreas, i wander if these cheap sensors can be used to make diy adaptive cruise control

[@AndreasSpiess]

Their range is not long enough for Switzerland.

[@mrtrippsuk]

Hi Andrea’s Do you have the link for the test/config software? I just can’t find it. Great video as always.. Bye 😂

[@AndreasSpiess]

I did not publish it because it was so simple :-(

[@rhysun]

Do these modules need to be powered continuously? Or could they be used with a low duty cycle for low power devices? I suspect they rely on volatile memory to work correctly.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I assume they need continuous power for a certain time.

[@bardenegri21]

How does it work through walls/doors? One problem I had with radar based sensors is they read motion through some materials, it would read motion in the next room through drywall or closed doors. Curious how much penetration it has at this frequency.

[@AndreasSpiess]

I did not check. But they should work through material, too. Maybe less than the 3 or 10GHz sensors.

[@VovelPunch]

could you please do a video on the Waveshare 5G module for the raspberry PI

[@AndreasSpiess]

This product is way too expensive for this channel. It only has a very small market in the Maker community.

[@StefanoMorleo]

Hi Andreas. I bought a ld2410 module for my home assistant. I can see it and connect via BLE to my android tablet but I cant see it in HA (no device discover). I'm going mad about it !!

[@AndreasSpiess]

So far I did not test it with HA :-(

[@Europhile]

Rather late for a reply but my HA has no BLE (HA5) so I used ESP32 to relay signals to HA.

[@yngndrw.]

What happens if you use multiple of these to cover a larger or odd-shaped area? Do they clash or does the modulation reject the noise?

[@AndreasSpiess]

I expect that they interfere. They all work on the same frequency. But I do not know its effect on the results.

[@NikArcher]

Hey Andreas, great video! I found it after I already ordered the sensor and replaced a 12GHz radar sensor with it. The old one was quite big and also caused my ESP32 to stop working whenever the radar was powered on. But I have a different question, maybe you can give me a hint: I don't completely understand the spec sheets. There are diagrams showing the working angle and detection range for 2 placements. But is there a difference if the radar PCB is oriented horizontally or vertically? background: if I want to detect movements down/upwards of a stairway, I would tilt the radar a little bit like this: / but does it matter if it is oriented like this - or this | ? I hope you understand what I try to ask :D

[@AndreasSpiess]

I think you have to try it in your situation because many factors influence its behavior. With the app you see its signal and you can decide. I think, the orientation is less important than the thresholds you choose.

[@NikArcher]

@@AndreasSpiess ah, alright! I'll try and test it. Thanks :)

[@fir3w4lk3r]

Rally nice video!!! What model is the multi arm helper you use?

[@AndreasSpiess]

I do no more remember :-( It is already old.