448: Beth Moore's Exit & the Problem of "Impoverished Imaginations" with Karen Swallow Prior

[@gracenotes5379]

Kaitlyn Schiess gives such insightful comments, with such good humor. A winning combination in my opinion.

[@smwall4Him]

Lewis: “The world does not need more Christian literature. What it needs is more Christians writing good literature.”

[@dankxng]

Amen!

[@andrelee7081]

I don't know about anyone else, but a series where Bob the tomato reads Frankenstein sounds very entertaining.

[@whyiamafs]

Same here I need it now 🥺

[@youdagoob]

I wonder what the squishy Christians think of Biden dictator in chief now? Hope your vote was worth it.

[@anabaird3835]

I'm with you!

[@rexgray6219]

Enjoyed to hear about Karen Swallow Prior's reading guides. Having taught Great Books in a classical christian school, she is absolutley correct about the value of reading literary fiction. The imagination is common grace.

[@salimapeacejoy]

I will definitely support Beth and I'm grateful for the stand she has taken.

[@CandaceRunaas]

I read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein as an adolescent. It was amazing and informs my understanding of Creation, ethics, life, death, and philosophy

[@lovemychacha]

Amen, Sky; the best evangelism is being a servant to our neighbors and community. When we are willing to do what Jesus calls us to do, people will start to ask, why you are helping me, loving me, supporting me, serving me. Putting love in action first opens the door for them to receive the gospel. It's so simple our actions speak louder than words! First, we need to be people who are the hands and feet of Jesus to a lost and dying world. Not just a bunch of empty lip service!

[@genesisp3884]

The two things that I took away from this episode: Sky is secretly Batman and Phil is a Marvel Fan 😂 On a more serious note, I really loved your discussion with Dr. Prior! I am an undergraduate student studying English Literature and I totally agree that people need to read more. Literature really expands the reader's ability to see other people's perspectives and read the context around situations. It is actually the reason why I picked this major even though many people have tried to steer me towards a STEM major. I am so glad that Dr. Prior is encouraging the Christian community in this direction.

[@fjohnson3002]

I'm a history lover. I love the stories of history though it's very painful in Black communities!

[@lovemychacha]

God Bless Beth Moore! Her courage is amazing!

[@nicolejackson7218]

I am taking on the "Frankenstein" challenge! I just read the first few pages of Dr. Prior's Introduction to the author via Amazon's "Look inside" feature, and I am HOOKED. As an ELA/Social Studies teacher, I have always been intrigued with both the story behind the art--whether it's backstage, the behind the scenes, or behind the music--and the historical context. And as someone who is a non-dualistic thinker, I understand that there is more than one perspective to consider.

[@BryanLeeDavidson]

Decolonizing her theology? I'M NOT ALONE!!!!

[@colleenc6101]

Christian media/music going from anti establishment to establishment...maybe that's YOUR new book, Phil!

[@scottylamm9673]

As someone who grew up reading cs Lewis and science fiction I completely agree with the idea Christians don’t use our imaginations enough. As an aspiring writer it is something I struggle with. What do I write and what audience do I try to write for? Also I’m taking the Frankenstein challenge and look forward to Phil’s book report! 😀

[@zacharysiple629]

34:38 Well, your first video parodied Frankenstein, so I think that's a fair statement! :)

[@reallifeanswers9764]

The current state of the SBC grieves me as a preacher. I have quite frankly been shocked at the lack of concern among our leaders over sexual abuse and social justice, and I'm even more surprised that there are 4 people running for president this year. Do you think we're headed for a split?

[@dankxng]

How do you even justify being part of an institution that was birthed out of the sole position of being pro-slavery? And even though the SBC was formed over that in 1845, how do you account for not recanting that position until 1995? 150 years later?!?! 30 years after the Civil Rights Movement?! Are you kidding me?!?! How is anyone still at his "church" denomination that is inseparable from racism, bigotry, and hate?? I truly do not understand!! (I type like I talk... Sorry if that seems I'm yelling at you. I promise I'm not. I'm just passionate and intense. I'd truly like to hear your thoughts on this though! Thanks!!)

[@marie_h1104]

1) Bob the Tomato needs to read Frankenstein; it's up his alley (and it's an excellent novel). 2) As an avid reader, I can attest to Dr. Prior's point in that classic literature allows the mind to expand. 3) Poor Skye. I hate it when my face becomes superimposed on other people's bodies.

[@maryburke9851]

Frankenstein is the best book ever written. It masterfully deals with the issue of what can go terribly wrong when we try to create what we as humans think is good. When we play God.

[@suzannejones720]

Beth Moore’s split with the SBC started years ago when she left her partnership with Houston’s First Baptist Church about 7 years ago.

[@DefenderoftheCross]

Beth Moore left the Christian faith years ago by her outright rebellion against God's ordinance against women preaching. The SBC is following her by its embrace of the social justice false gospel.

[@elbryant1226]

I really appreciate what Dr. Swallor Prior has to say regarding imagination. Noth Walter Brueggeman and Willie James Jennings speak to the need for a prophetic Christian imagination, while also lamenting the decline of imagination.

[@astralphoenix7905]

What Karen Swallow Prior was saying about literary fiction (being able to put yourself into the experience) can apply to video games. I grew up playing video games that had grand stories in them and I learned to see things through different perspectives by playing various video games. Plus some games give you story choices that you have to think through and others let you experience a taste of what it's like to be on the receiving of racist insults.

[@dankxng]

Yeah! Who needs books?!? Just play video games!!! LOL

[@WSGF]

@@dankxng How is your comment contributing to constructive discourse? The OP said that the thoughts about literary fiction **CAN** be used to video games. Some video games do rise to that level of art, RPGs in particular. Many video game critics would say that Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic rises to this level with its story and moral choices. Additionally, the OP never said to play video games to the exclusion of reading books. In fact many people who identify in the nerdy side of gaming are avid readers.

[@dankxng]

@@WSGF Wait. You forreal right now?! Hahahaha!! The internet is such a strange place! Y'all really be wildin' out here!! I made a joke because it's absolutely absurd to add to a conversation where the subject is about how our generation has lost a passion for reading and as a byproduct of that we have lost the joy of cultivating imagination if your two cents is that video games help cultivate that same sort of imagination as well. That sort of misses the entire point of the episode to be honest lol. Her whole point is how this generation is always playing video games, streaming Netflix, or on KZbin rather than reading a good book and discovering a new world and how that actually cultivates imagination in ways these other mediums cannot.

[@amwoodco3049]

Alright, I have to share this story of my brother. At one point, all of us teenagers started singing at the front of the church. At the time, my brother's fashion at the time was long hair, chains on his wrists, a spiked collar on his neck, and a tank top... which he wore to church. At the end of the service, 90 year old Mrs. Stouffer (God rest her soul) came up to him, grabbed his hand with her typical iron grip, looked him in the eyes and told him, "You need to sing louder, I can't here you." Heheh.

[@chelsiecasey2387]

I think racism is absolutely one of the biggest reasons she left, not a facade.

[@pressia07]

Phil needs to make a christian music documentary i would totally watch that

[@amynemecek2521]

Great discussion of what constitutes literary fiction! Phil asks Karen, "Where are the Flannery O'Connors of conservative evangelicalism?" May I recommend the following wherever books and ebooks are sold: Susie Finkbeiner, Sharon Garlough Brown, Tracy Groot, Erin Bartels, Valerie Fraser Luesse, Shawn Smucker. These are writers who (a) use words in an artistic way to recreate someone's experiences, (b) put the reader in a position of entering into that experience and see the world through the eyes of the narrator/characters, and (c) are comfortable not having all the answers or solving all the problems. Such writers are out there in the Christian market, but too often they get overlooked amid the clutter of bonnet fiction, chick lit, romance, and suspense.

[@TheGretsch6120]

I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate you. I left the buildings years ago (kinda got chased out) over these issues and when Trump came along gave up totally. I got your back from the ground after being pushed out of the ivory towers of the Baptists. LOL

[@audram.8326]

Sadly, not just the Baptists, we were run out of Calvary Chapel. Then all their vile stuff came out as well. It is everywhere where people hold power over others! 😢 thegodjourney.com podcast has really helped me in my post institutional Christianity life. Blessings on the journey.

[@anabaird3835]

You're definitely not alone

[@j.e.bennett4307]

Ms. Schiess, how do you know that those who called out Beth Moore's teaching were doing so to "be right" or "score points"? What did they say that caused you to not believe they have a broken heart for those that will be hurt by her teaching? (Referring to your comments at around the 31:00 mark).

[@Cyrribrae]

I just randomly looked over and was like... When did Skye become sad bat boy :( haha

[@CandaceRunaas]

Frank Perretti was an incredible Christian author. I wonder what happened to his writings as a way to process deep philosophical truths

[@marksweeting24]

I agree about staying positive with issues like Beth Moore leaving the SBC. It was embarrassing to read the comments on a youtube vid about John MacArthur BTWN and how people were attempting to defend Pastor John, accused of being disrespectful. Commenters trashed her to no end, about her looks and even stating she must be demon possessed. People desperately protect the status quo.

[@jhuh24]

Give our love to Sky please. The internet shut down him making the best expression ever.

[@SandyKH]

Sorry, but when you speak of Bob Smetana... I can't help but grin. 10 extra points to anyone who knows what his name means in Russian! My heart is moved at the home-going of Louis. He was a great man indeed. I've learned much from him.

[@Oksana07booboo]

I smile every time (and then crave some with pilmeni).

[@SandyKH]

@@Oksana07booboo For me, it's Vareniki!! :)

[@markdouglas8073]

Make mine borscht.

[@SandyKH]

@@markdouglas8073 That would be nice...

[@adamshields8107]

I remember Luis Palau crusade in Chicago in 1996 had some large group mass evangelism rallies large arenas, but most of it was small, personalized gatherings with numbers in dozens or a couple hundred of people at a time. That was 25 years ago, they had already decided that mass evangelism was largely not effective.

[@elbryant1226]

Also, I would recommend reading anything by Marilynne Robinson if folks want to explore literary fiction.

[@kristingarrett4759]

I gotta say that I really struggle with the cruelty discussion on multiple levels

[@petroswheels]

Hmm, did Jesus flip the tables because the vulnerable were being exploited, or because of what was being done to the place of worship in general?

[@ktheg48]

Sad news about Luis Palau-I sat with he and his wife over ice cream a few years ago on the Oregon Coast. His greater thrust of late has been a partnering with notable Christian leaders and pastors in the Portland metro area (ie Rick McKinley at Imago Dei)-a dynamic and fruitful ministry among disinfranchised city dwellers. He was a terrific light-bearer in this long journey of redemption.

[@-_-DAVe]

Larry the cucumber reads classic novels, I'd listen to that.

[@BLUELOVEFOREVER1]

Except the author of veggie tales is embracing BLM. Read Voddie Bauchams book, “Fault Lines”, BLM IS A NEW RELIGION, WITH ROOTS IN ANTICHRIST MARZISM.

[@-_-DAVe]

@@BLUELOVEFOREVER1 do the support the ngo Black Lives Matter or the statement black lives matter? Please show sources.

[@abbeywalker3614]

Read Marylyn Robison for the "Flannery O'Connor of conservative evangelicalism"

[@petroswheels]

Fascinating take on Cracker Barrel vs. Whole Foods.

[@anabaird3835]

K.S.P.: Your iconic look is FANTASTIC!

[@r.altman6458]

Kaitlyn will need to be mentioned in the theme song soon

[@macdri]

"What if my kids start asking questions I don't know how to answer?" Time to start questioning and thinking yourself and teach your kids how to as well BEFORE they leave the nest. Our job as parents is to teach them to be the best of what God and they chooses for them, not to make them mimics of ourselves (scary as that sounds).

[@dankxng]

"Your kids are not leaving the church because you didn't train them enough... Your kids are leaving the church because you trained them well enough to develop a sense for truth and justice. You let them read the words of Jesus. And they got it. And they've recognized that the church doesn't seem to be interested in those words. They're not leaving because they don't know the truth. They're leaving because they do. This isn't even necessarily something that they would articulate. This is something that is happening on a soul level. If your kids can't find Jesus - the Jesus that they know, the Jesus that you've taught them about - if they can't find him within the walls of your church then you know what? They will go looking for him elsewhere. And that may not be what they say they are doing, that may not be how they articulate it, that may not be how they describe it, but I believe that's what is happening. And it's interesting because parents think that their kids might want something out there, something outside of the church, more than they want Jesus. I think it might be simpler than that. I think that maybe your kids who left the church just wanted Jesus and they saw that you wanted something else. They see that the church at large seems to want something else. Because, in my experience in just looking at it, if you just take the words of Jesus, the life of Jesus, the teachings of Jesus at face value, you have to do some very athletic - some very athletic - mental gymnastics to find a way to reconcile the way the evangelical church looks in the world today with any of those words. I just can't put those puzzle pieces together in a way that makes sense..." - Rhett McLaughlin

[@rebeccaholcombe9043]

​@@dankxngThis comment may be 2 years old but it absolutely rings true. I left my parent's church and have difficulty walking through the doors of another one due to the mismatch of how the churches behave and what the Bible itself reveals about Jesus and God himself.

[@dankxng]

@@rebeccaholcombe9043 I’m right there with you, homie

[@bethprather9241]

Beth Moore is one of the most influential Bible Teachers I ever had. She knows the Lord and is annoited in His Word. She has always invited other denominations into her Bible Studies. Beth Moore and her sister were victims of incest and sexual abuse. She spoke out against Donald Trump at the very first and saw the SBC was supporting him. Same as I felt. Then something crazy they used against her was that she preached or spoke at a church on Mother's Day and Baptist don't believe in women preachers. Well Until 2015 Ive been a SBapt. We always had women speak on Baptist Women's Day.. So a mess.. They didnt lime her on tv with men and women learning from her. She was very upset with the huge sexual scandal cover up..

[@bethprather9241]

The worst is all the different you tube channels deciding if different Christian speakers, singers on and on are false prophets.. or false teachers. They are just too much and sickening.

[@stevenmerritt4960]

Imagine if I said, "Hey, look, I'm not sexist. You've got me all wrong. I just think that women shouldn't be CEOs. Only men should be CEOs. Women should only be secretaries. I'm not sexist, I just believe that men and women have a different place in corporate America and men belong as CEOs and women belong as secretaries." You'd likely label me as sexist instantly, and you'd be right. Of course, that statement is just complementarianism applied to corporate America rather than the church. Complementarianism is just sexism that people try to excuse being it's been done for a long time, in other words, it's a tradition. It's also excused because it's biblical. Frankly, that it's biblical isn't a justification for complementarianism. It's a condemnation of the Bible.

[@bethprather9241]

I understand about the conservative Christians need more classical literature. I read a lot. I always have. But I do believe education and college for sure is huge. The openess. Also as I aged I was very open by Beth Moore's Daniel study. I loved the Bible and I pray to love it and you have to know as a Christian the Bible is alive and active as a 2 edge shore. We are in this generation so we need to be educated by the best. Praying to love the Bible and hear what God tells you and Discernment is tops. I don't know if I would call it imagination..BUt open minded and knowing truth from fiction...

[@gracecommunitychurchkyleof317]

You seem to overlook writers like Francis A. Schaeffer and Hans Rookmaaker from the 60s and 70s.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

The fact that people especially preachers don’t read widely, is part of the reason that their preaching is stale and repetitive.

[@veggiet2009]

I miss snow already, our last was a few weeks ago... But I have posts in my Facebook feed reminding me of get snow this week in previous years.

[@youngmallet]

Idk if pastor Greg Laurie still does it, but the last (and only) crusade movement that I ever attended was The Harvest Crusade, around 2012 or so. It was nice.

[@nicolepettit5120]

I had never heard of David French until I listened to one of these podcasts. I’ve listened to a few of them now, and you always mention something he wrote. I don’t really get it.

[@liav4102]

Crusades are cancelled, at least with that nomenclature

[@Mystelemade]

26:08 yes. Deflections are always defensive reactions.

[@nataliecalk1366]

One of the reasons “modesty” is practiced is so there is less attention to self and more on God driven things. With this basis in Biblical teaching, Christians as a whole practice blending moreso than standing out. Is there anything wrong with standing out? Depends on what you do with the added attention I feel.

[@PurpleIrishSweater]

But IMO - as a community we do not wait to judge until we see what is done with the attention. We judge people that we have decided are drawing attention to themselves because of the attention. And we say it is not “Godly” to be doing so. But what if we are each created to be creative? What if God intended us to be shiny? Or colorful? Absolutely we should each search our hearts to be sure that what we are doing is creative, and not just creating a spectacle. But maybe we should not decide that someone is being other than Godly because they do not fit what we see as appropriate. Modesty is a beautiful thing. And so is being creative with how you present yourself.

[@nataliecalk1366]

@@PurpleIrishSweater good points. Creative and Vanity have lines close together. I think modesty begins from within and transforms to the outward appearance. My form of modesty may not be others so I stay open to that but again, design of modesty is less attention to self, de-layering the world from our appearance. I think someone can do this and not be conformed to worldly trends.

[@corybanter]

I really enjoyed the interview with Karen Swallow Prior, but I have to confess that, whereas I loved Pride & Prejudice, I really hated Frankenstein. (I love Shakespeare, though, so I still get points for reading the classics.)

[@geoffhorswood6234]

I don’t think the point of reading classic literature is that you should love it all, more that you appreciate it and broaden your outlook with it. Says the guy that hates reading Dickens

[@corybanter]

@@geoffhorswood6234 I totally agree. I'm glad I read Frankenstein, but I just found it an unpleasant experience. Still, I recognize the novel's importance in the pantheon of classic literature.

[@Jasonhimstedt1979]

Frankenstein is my favorite book!

[@paulnesselroade5252]

Hey Phil - I'd argue radical Christian music lived a bit longer. Thinking of D.A., the Seventy Sevens, the Choir, etc. I'd say Rich Mullins brought it at least as far as the 90's. I'm with you...I miss it! :)

[@Paulman2]

32:02 Not only that, but when Jesus kicked the money changers and animal vendors out of the temple, He immediately goes on to say in Mark 11:17, "He was teaching and saying, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”" Apparently, they were setting up shop in the Court of the Gentiles and presumably crowding them out in favour of the messy animals and other commercial purposes. So, ironically, even in that example of Jesus being harsh, there was a huge element of Jesus defending racial minorities being discriminated against (or shut out in some way) by the prevailing religious folk/institution of the day.

[@crystal9626]

Doug Batchelor does huge evangelism events outside of the USA.

[@amy-suewisniewski6451]

Karen Swallow is lovely but I have to disagree that what must be read is literary fiction. The irony of using "Pride and Prejudice" - where the largest fault of both Darcy and Elizabeth was their pride and looking down on others - whilst insisting that anything not literary isn't "quality" is not lost on me. There is plenty of Genre Fiction, and even thoughtful blogs and podcasts that can build our imaginations and empathy. I'm not saying we shouldn't read classics. By all means, I love Jane Austen and can recommend several classics. But to say we need to read diversly and then limit that so staunchly to classics (which are historically not diverse) is just counter productive and elitist.

[@dankxng]

People already read blogs and listen to podcasts though... She's right. We've lost imaginations in a lot of ways. And classic lit really is important and diverse. It's why they remain classics centuries later. That means there is a timelessness there. I don't know what you mean when you say "historically not diverse." Could you unpack that? The point is that we have lost timeless classics in a lot of ways that truly do unlock imaginations that shift paradigms. Think about it this way: Telling someone to stream Netflix is not new or diverse because everyone is doing it. Telling someone to dig up some old Hitchcock or Capra Black and White films does expand your palette. You'll also notice that times were different back then, but that stories were told in a more rich and imaginative sort of process in a lot of ways! I think that is what she was getting at! I'm a huge Marvel fan. I read all the comics as a kid and am in my thirties now,. I understand that not only do Marvel movies and comic books pale in comparison to the Greek mythologies much of the characters are based off of, but that we would even have these heroes and stories without Greek mythologies being the source material. It's the same with classical literature. No genre fiction would even exist if these other stories had not paved the way for them. I think there's a lot of truth to what she was saying...

[@amy-suewisniewski6451]

@@dankxng I have no problem with classic literature. I have problem with framing classic literature as better than any modern fiction, and looking down on works that aren't classic or literary. It's the dismissive comments of genre fiction and modern as "less then" and not quality that bothers me. If she had hyped up classic literary novels without dismissing genre fiction and modern works, I'd be fine with it. It's the dismissive comments that bother me. Historically, classics aren't diverse. Most classic literature is written by older white men. We have very few authors of colour, very few women, even fewer women of colour. These voices were often barred from publishing and have an incredibly difficult time being recognized. Whwre these diverse characters and people are often shown in classic works, the perspective is almost enteily written by outsiders- white men- and we can miss what these cultures and people had to say about their own expeirnce. We also tend to frame stories exclusively around their tragedy. They are only ever the tortured slave, abused immigrants, etc. Part of why these classics have endured isn't solely their merit, but also them being held up over other voices. I don't mean to dismissive literary classics at all. I've read plenty. I just don't feel you need to demean one form over another- they can all sit at the table and be enjoyed, be taught from and teach readers. There are many amazing works of fiction that aren't literary and modern that build the imagination and again, I don't care if she doesn't want to talk about them or only wants to focus on literary, but its the demeaning comments about them that doesn't sit well with me. Most of these literary classics were the commercial genre fiction of their time. Her cited examples certainly were. And why does Marvel pale in comparison exactly??? I've never read marvel comcis and I'm certain there would be several comics I personally wouldn't care for, or some I might find trivial, but I bet there are also hard-hitting storyline, characters and plots in some that have great impact on readers and are imaginative and thought provoking. I know plenty of young Kids who love Miles Morales and have had a great impact from that kind of representation. Why is that less than a classic literary novel? Why not both?

[@dankxng]

​@@amy-suewisniewski6451 Again, I love Marvel so no need to defend those stories to me hahaha. I think you're ultimately missing the point. Which is fine! Just means we disagree. It's good to disagree and have your own thoughts :) I really appreciate you unpacking all of that for me!! I still think it's not so much "being dismissive" as it is saying that works that last over centuries do have a merit attached to them that others do not. That's just true! For books, for songs, for films, for paintings... Those that have a timeless quality that people are still fawning over centuries later do have that special sauce that other GOOD and even GREAT works do not. I think that's what she was trying to say and I think I agree with that... I think there's some validity to point out how your genre fiction would not even exist today if not for the classics that have withstood the test of time paving the way. That's what I meant by my Marvel comment too... I don't spend days or weeks poring over Greek Mythology the same way I do poring over Marvel comic books, but I am self-aware enough to realize the stories the comic books are based off of... There's a difference between objective and subjective analysis, you know? Thanks for unpacking your "diversity" comment! I appreciate it! I would say that your assertion that "we have very few authors of colour, very few women, even fewer women of colour. These voices were often barred from publishing and have an incredibly difficult time being recognized" is simply untrue... I absolutely believe that white privilege and male privilege exist so I'm not discounting that. We absolutely can point to these being the reasons for there being more white authors and male authors as opposed to BIPOC authors and female authors, but there are still many! In this video they talk about Mary Shelley for one and your go-to example was even Jane Austen so that kind of already disproves your point does it not? There are plenty of others as well. Yes, of course, there are MORE white men as opposed to female and BIPOC authors, but that's unfortunately true for genre fiction today as well...

[@amy-suewisniewski6451]

@@dankxng No, quoting Jane Austen and Mary Shelley does not disprove my point. I used them as examples simply because she did. There are very, very few woman authors of old classics, virtually no POC and again, even fewer POC Women if we are looking at the old classic literature. Holding up the few that have been published does not discount the lack of diversity in classic literature and I'm going to be honest, it's kind of insulting to say "well, you've got a handful of woman compared to the dozens and dozens of white men, so it's fine". With that logic, why don't we just pick five of the old white male authors and discontinue all the other classics by white men? It's great that we still have these few white woman, but it is sad that we don't have more. That's not even touching the lack of POC authors when looking at old classics, or how it dismisses cultures with a primarily oral tradition of story telling. I'm not saying they aren't there, but they overwhelmingly drowned out by white male authors. Do we have more diversity in literature now? Yes. But that's part of my point - you need to look outside old classic literature to find some of this diversity, and dismissing genre fiction because it's not the classics also dismisses these books. The most diversity you are going to get is actually in children's and YA literature of the past decade. So many new voices, perspectives and ideas here where minorities can tell their stories - not just of their tragedies, but of their triumphs,their experience, and their culture. As I said before, many of these classics we have now WERE the commercial genre fiction of their time. Many books we look at now as drival will be the new classics in 50 years time. I just can't wrap my head around why we can't hold up both??? Why can't Angie Thomas' "The Hate U Give" be taught and recommended as well as "The Great Gatsby"? We can't change the racism and sexism of publishing past, but going forward we can build more diversity and I don't like accepting it just because that's how it's been. Unfortunately as well, these classics being held up aren't passed on SOLELY for their literary merit. They're passed on in the curriculum in part by racism - that's what our grandparents learned so we will! They were written and upheld and added to curriculum when racial prejudice was the norm. Minorities and woman were often purposefully pushed out and barred from being taught. So naturally, these classics get more attention and are upheld more. I'm not trying to shit all over all classics as bad. Really, I'm not!!! "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley is the very inception of the Sci-Fi genre. It's okay to read, learn, teach and enjoy these classics even if it's predominantly white men. They have merit. But when you don't even publish POC stories, dismiss a majority of female authors and bar them from the curriculum, well of course whatever you teach will "stand thr test of time". It was out their and aided. Relying solely on them and dismissing newer works I just don't agree with. I think she could have praised these books without the negative and derogatory comments to current genre and commercial fiction. But otherwise, I don't doubt her heart or her intent. I'm not even sure she meant to come across so harshly against modern fiction - but I think it's harmful not to point out the fault in this way of thinking. I'm not trying to defend Marvel to you either, I'm genuinely asking, why is it lesser than Greek Myths??? Many Marvel stories don't even rely on Greek Myths as their base. It's also a bit of a logical fallacy to look at these myths as the inception of all modern storytelling. Even the Greek Myths as an example, are the retellings of even older stories in that culture. Many cultures often share myths or have similar myths that date even further back. As even the Bible says, "there is nothing new under the sun". Many are amazing and yes, do inspire some of the work we see today. But we also get new and imaginative work today, and we could lose every piece of literature before 2010 and we would still write simalar but also imaginative stories. There are in actuality, only a handful of story types that are repeated over and over again. Everything is both derivative of something else, but unique in its own way, including old classics. Some of what they have on modern fiction is time and institutions holding them up. We often don't know about a lot of other cultures and their stories. We tend to know the mostly white male authors with a European background. We didn't incorporate Native Americans classic stories, or from Africa, and even tales from Asian countries and communities are often sparse. But as you said, our differing opinions is normal and we will likely agree to disagree! I don't want to sound argumentative or that you MUST agree with me or you're a terrible person. Not at all. You sound like a lovely person that loves and appreciates literature and got something different out of this than me. It has been lovely talking to you!

[@dankxng]

@@amy-suewisniewski6451 I apologize for miscommunicatting. I think I largely agree with a lot of what you just wrote actually haha. Sorry if my comments about white male authors sounded dismissive. I tried to be clear that I believe both white and male privilege to be huge problems, but they unfortunately still persist today. I do see you're point now though that tides are changing and I agree!! 😊

[@marciasloan534]

I have a theory about All Imperfect Christian Churches.( includes all Of us) The cult of personality,and Giving positions of leadership to New believers. I grew up in a Methodist faith and left without Hearing the PLAN OF SALVATION. My boyfriend/husband had a Divinity degree from Bob Jones. I accepted Christ as my Savior and went into a Bible Church.I found friends and teaching there. At a Baptist Church I found love and acceptance. Those Baptists accept and love and FEED you! 10 years In a “young,bad guy” came into The lead the youth. Enter Cult of Personality. I did not have the Social intelligence to complain to a great Pastor. Many years later, I wish Leaders had done something about This guy. He left and embedded in One of the largest churches.So, For me cult of personality cannot Be a bigger problem. I walked out on Beth Moore many years ago. I saw A Cult Leader. You all can love her all you want, she was a bad influence.

[@colleenc6101]

Its OK to dislike Cracker Barrel and be called liberal! 😊

[@tombumth7709]

1st time listener. KZbin produced the suggestion & I thought I'd give it a go. Luis Pulow is it? Phil's rendition gave me Pepe Le Pew vibes - does this Luis have a silver streak in his hair?

[@sethland]

Regarding evangelism: the future for millennials and Gen z is salvation as a process and not in a one time presentation and sinners prayer. Biblically there are many references to how salvation isn’t necessarily an instantaneous action, but a continual process. So for the younger generations who want to see an authentic expression of faith: have them volunteer with you in a food pantry, pray before you serve meals, and be patient to invite them into more: community groups, an exploratory study on the gospel of Mark.. there may not be one moment, but a gradual process of putting their faith in Jesus.

[@DeJay14]

Your referring to the difference of Justification and Sanctification...I hope lol

[@oksills]

4people and ABSOLUTELY nothing to say!!

[@hollysmithconklin847]

1 Corthians Ch 14 v 33-37

[@timothymulholland7905]

The fellow at the lower left seems to have fallen asleep or died!

[@estelleorr9065]

😂😂😂 Right at 30 minutes in lol

[@pierreeade]

That's the weirdest thing! No explanation either. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@zacharysiple629]

35:17 Prior looks like Edna Mode. :)

[@deborahkaufman6492]

As both a Southern Baptist woman and one who thinks Beth Moore is a wonderful teacher and used of God , in fact she is a friend of God and taught us how to be friends of God, I am very saddened by the news, not surprised and also glad if that is possible. More the former for selfish reasons, but I stand with her decision with no reservation and totally get why she did it. It's to our destruction that she is gone and those who say Yay the false teacher is gone, that is the problem. You are rejoicing and bullied her till she had to do what she had to do for her own Spiritual gain. Think SBC her spiritual gain, why is that? SBC- Toxic, Leaving -Freeing Same with Tisby. So so sad. But I support both and more who will leave.

[@deborahkaufman6492]

As far as your questions Phil Vischer. The answer is yet and you hit the nail on the head IMO. The woman(can't think of her name, my apologies) I disagreed with a lot of her answer to you, but she was very close in other answers at the end of her comment. Again, I don't know and do not personally know Beth Moore , just the situation that led to this move by her which I am sure she did not do lightly and without immersing herself for a very long period of time in scripture and prayer. Which is probably why she said no to your invitation to be on the show. I could however be wrong. I have no "inside information", this is my gut and impression after following her, listening to her sermons, reading her books, following her on twitter.. That is my only "inside" source. :)

[@deborahkaufman6492]

Yet, should be yes. Correction.

[@dankxng]

I am very glad Moore left the Hellscape that is the SBC. I do wonder why you are still there at all, Deborah. But I wonder that of anyone. I grew up the PK of a Southern Baptist preacher. The SBC was started in 1845 over the issue of slavery. A sect of certain churches seceded from the Baptist union because they were pro-slavery and that became the SBC. The SBC did not recant this position until 1995. Moore was already raking in loads of money for the SBC by '95 and '96. Ignore the fact that recanting being PRO-SLAVERY was considered a controversy in-house of SBC circles and churches, right? Moore sat comfortably in this racist institution for years and never spoke up until Trump became president. I am SO thankful she started speaking up at that point, but I'm sorry! That is very little very late in a lot of ways, is it not? Please don't mishear me; I am not throwing stones at Moore. She has done so much for the Kingdom. And you seem to be great too! But this is just a blind spot I see in Southern Baptists. It's impossible to be part of an institution and movement that is inseparable from racism, bigotry, and hate... Think about that, right? Without racism, bigotry, and hate, there could be no SBC... It was birthed out of choosing to take a stand for slavery and racism! And it took 150 years to recant that position! Thirty cussing* after the Civil Rights movement!! What are your thoughts on all of this?! I really just do not understand!! Moore says the SBC saved her life and was her refuge in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but that she feels it is no longer a safe place... What she fails to realize is that it has never been a safe place for BIPOC. Thoughts?? I really do hope you have time to respond because I'd love to hear your perspective on all of this... I just don't understand!! *Yes, I would absolutely have said an expletive here, but I am trying to respect you in case you skew more conservative haha.

[@MarkRidlen]

Randomly came back to the video to find Skye has been replaced by somebody with hair, fast asleep. That's pretty funny.

[@billdeanscoutermoose9430]

Christian music peaked with Rez band, Steve Taylor and maybe Undercover :D Haven't bought any since.

[@alliematt1016]

Should KSP be referred to as the new CS Lewis? :-)

[@psycho01cb]

The Church doesn't want to listen to prophets. . . . Why does this sound familiar? Have I read stories like this before? OMgosh!!! I don't that kind of theorizing with fictional TV shows!!!! The stuff Dr. Prior was talking about!!! I do that with fictional characters!!!! I still think people should read, but you can do the same thing with a well-written TV show or movie.

[@alexandrorocca7142]

"You have a look... In conservative Christianity is extraordinarily rare". Have you seen Kat Kerr? Not that I would compare the two on an intellectual level. 😄

[@nbud7718]

Phil, during the interview portion I was very frustrated with many of your questions. You assume that "Christian" means white American evangelical. When you were asking about how many conservative Christians don't dress with a lot of flair, you need to say why white Christians don't dress with a lot of flair, you see what I mean? Black Christians don't have a problem with dressing well and standing out, right? You did this several times in the interview and it seems like you know better given the number of episodes on racism and white supremacy . Were you just playing naive?

[@tombumth7709]

@34:30 - didn't you get the memo Phil? it's not frank - and- stine it's FRAWNK - en - SHTEEN !!!!!!!!! (as you drive a pen through your thigh)

[@Hpdarkman121]

Funny you should mention Jesus in the temple. In one of the Christian meme groups I follow, someone made a meme mocking bidens speech impediment. Someone else pointed out it wasn't Christ-like behavior to mock people. They responded with Jesus in the temple as an excuse.

[@brenjac59]

Greg Laurie still does large crusades.

[@updownjester]

Relic.

[@scubasteveesq4119]

This take on "literary fiction" is pretty elitist and widely controversial among readers of both "literary fiction" and "popular fiction". I appreciate the goal of expanding empathy, understanding, etc., but it's insulting to frame your favorite literature as fine dining and others' as fast food.

[@monzorella1]

@30:00 scared me 😭 I'm a big baby

[@mrTjstephens1]

Her stories about why people leave just listen to Seth Andrews every story has that common thread

[@anabaird3835]

Jesus aka GOD kicked over tables. Yip!👍 JAMES 1:20= "Human anger does not produce the righteousness God desires" "God is God & we aint"-(?), but repeated by many Christians.

[@White0ni]

Did the intro change? I sounds like Skye is singing the song off in the distance. lol

[@dankxng]

The SBC is trash. All of these thinkpieces and "hot takes" (including this one unfortunately) that view Moore as some sort of hero in this situation is absolutely ridiculous. The SBC became a denomination in 1845 when a certain sect of churches seceded from the Baptist union over the issue of slavery. There were enough affluent white people with ties to the organization who were racist and did not view BIPOC as equal to whites. Pretty egregious, yes, but even worse is that the SBC did not recant their pro-slavery position until 1995. Are you kidding me? 30 years after the Civil Rights Movement? Moore was already making bank through the SBC by '95 and '96 and has only grown in popularity every year since. This decision to recant being pro-slavery, in 1995 mind you, was met with controversy. Churches withdrew from the SBC. BIPOC heard the clear message that they are not welcome at these churches. Read that article again. In the 2019-2020 fiscal year, Moore lost over 1 Million dollars in revenue. She only left once the loss of $$$ affected her... She is no hero. She was silent on these issues up until Trump became president. While I am very glad she has continued to be vocal against Trump, if she had not lost money and followers within the SBC, she certainly still would've stayed. She isn't leaving over some righteous action or decision. She's leaving because her wallet was affected. I do not say this to throw stones at Beth Moore. She has done more for the Kingdom that I have in many ways. At the very least, her reach is far stronger! Having said that, we should still be able to point out blind spots in great leaders and call them out in love. I'm glad she finally got out of that Hellscape, but I don't understand people who try to save an institution whose origin is inseparable from the evils of racism. Without racism, bigotry, and hatred, there would be no SBC. Full stop. Just think about that for a second!! If the Baptists had not come out with an anti-slavery position, then the SBC would have never formed in 1845... And it took them 150 years to recant that position?! Are you cussing* kidding me?! Do you realize that means this amendment to recant this position in the bylaws was proposed decade after decade before it ever got off the ground? Even thirty years after the Civil Rights Movement, people still weren't happy about it. 1995 was not so long ago. Racists still run rampant in the institution. Just as Phil said here, if white supremacists and neo-Nazis feel more at home in your congregation than BIPOC, then you have a problem. Moore says that the SBC saved her life and was consistently a refuge for her in the '70s, '80s, and '90s before she started publishing and raking in all the profits for them, but that they are no longer a safe place... But the SBC has never been safe for BIPOC... *Yes, I would have used an expletive here, but am trying to respect Phil and any of the audience that skew more conservative. 1 Corinthians 9, right??

[@BryanLeeDavidson]

Maybe you need a different word then "crusade". You know something less we-conquer-you-y.

[@DavidGodwin57]

like listening to you folks just want you to make your position on the Bible Project good or bad or maybe indifferent.

[@andrewcosta2760]

I hope Beth went home.

[@KSmith-ey1se]

Love your podcast discussions, but I must say, personally, the theme song is awful 😢.

[@veggiet2009]

Why do you find it awful? It makes me happy

[@mymyscellany]

: O

[@KSmith-ey1se]

To each his own... I think it's corny and clashes with the often serious contents of discussion. Just my opinion.

[@adamshields8107]

@@KSmith-ey1se I think that might be the intent. Being a bit corny and jokey to off-set the seriousness of a lot of the discussion.

[@dankxng]

@@KSmith-ey1se I'd love to hear you theme song! Maybe don't critique people that write/produce their own music/songs before you try yourself. Phil is actually quite talented at it. It might not be your personal taste, but you clearly lack the knowledge to have a subjective versus objective opinion...