5 reasons an estranged child may never want to reconcile with their parents

[@JP-jy7sk]

I left my “family” at 19 and never returned- zero contact with anyone. I’m 47 now. At this stage, I see absolutely no point in establishing contact. It’s completely done and there’s no good reason to reconcile- it would simply be more problematic than it’s worth. Life moves on!

[@birdieculture-2]

I salute you

[@SanctifiedLady]

How do you know? Some may have passed away as well

[@SatsumaTengu14]

In the case of physical or sexual abuse I can easily understand. Otherwise, it is a cowardly thing not to try and mend things with family.

[@AuburnGrad2008]

@@SatsumaTengu14those aren’t the only two forms of abuse

[@informationtransmitter599]

@@SatsumaTengu14 lol, no it is not...

[@ajrwilde14]

There's only one reason: I know they don't love me.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I feel this comment so much. And it broke my heart just a little. Sending hugs to you and I hope you're ok.

[@WVgrl59]

❤ from West Virginia

[@jenexit]

That's terribly sad.

[@heystarfish100]

It’s less to do about you than you think. They are very, very, very judgmental about the relationships with their family as they individuate into an adult.

[@jenniferfrazier8131]

As hard as it is, I’m learning to accept that love isn’t always reciprocal even with your children.

[@katherineheufel6953]

Pepole are hurting on both sides. Children are mourning the parent they didn't have and parents are mourning a child who is still alive.

[@rachelm1816]

No. 1 - They don't feel safe. Bingo!

[@thescapegoatclub]

So simple and yet so true!

[@stacymitchell4829]

Yep. I'm not even estranged, but it's been 3 weeks since I last talked to my mom, but every time I think about calling, I'm terrified of how she will react. I can't even tell her that because she'll just invalidate me. My brother rarely communicates with her (1-3 times a year). Years ago when he let her know he is afraid of her she told him (and also discusses it with my sister and me) that it was impossible to be afraid of her because she small (5 foot tall). I know she knows no one means physically presently (though she abused me physically as a child), she either thinks 1) we're too stupid to understand our emotions and how she is an emotional threat or 2) so used to lying/denying/playing the victim that she has convinced herself she is a sweet little untheartening mother.

[@carrieank8467]

@@stacymitchell4829 I was an idiot and tried and tried and tried until I was 55. My advice is if your mom doesn't change, stay gone. My mental health since I went no contact has soared. Wish you well.

[@sharonthompson672]

​@@carrieank8467 I don't believe you were an idiot, I think that little child inside was thinking for you, children always have hope. Did you finally have an epiphany? I did. 🖐️ That's what did it for me.

[@willard2729]

Life has changed. I grew up around northeastern baby boomers with Irish, Italian, Jewish grandparents. Not a blue blood in sight My god - the yelling, the door-slamming, the squealing tires. Drunk dads grew on trees The fistfights, some between brothers. There was a lot of forgiveness. I don’t know of a single case of parent/child estrangement from anyone I knew from my grade school days I know of plenty of sibling to sibling estrangements. Baby boomers are spoiled. And, they (I’m a boomer but distance myself) have inheritances over which to bicker, whereas their parents didn’t inherit much Money is a common element in the estrangements I have seen among siblings Been texting tonight with a friend. We both had Irish Catholic dads who ruined family life with alcohol and we nevertheless miss them. Are we holding adults to a higher standard? have we reclassified 1965 drunk dad and neurotic mom as abusers vs a cost of doing business?

[@ArvindNairYT]

Thank you for sharing the victim's perspective. I want to send this to my parents because you articulate this viewpoint so well but the reality is it will never sink in for them. I keep this knowledge to heal myself and move on. Thank you again for sharing.

[@8MC8342]

Hi Chess, I really appreciate how, at the beginning of the video, you addressed the estranged parents watching. It is usually a very painful situation for all involved and your empathy and kindness are so easy to see. This is one of my favourite videos by you and it resonated with me, so deeply. I wish I could send this to my Mom but I don't think it would make a difference and she would still choose to find a way to scapegoat me instead of putting the energy into making repairs. I especially love your #4 reason regarding forgiveness and expecting the adult child to do all of the work and healing, even if the pain caused, was not intentional. I would LOVE to see another video dedicated to this topic. I hope you and your viewers are having a fantastic weekend 💞

[@thescapegoatclub]

thank you so much for such a kind comment! I really appreciate you taking the time to write it. Do you have any ideas of what you would like to see in another video on the topic? I'd be happy to do one if I can! Wishing you all the best with your situation. Take care

[@8MC8342]

@@thescapegoatclub You are more than welcome and thank you so much for asking 😊 I would love to hear more of your thoughts regarding what you said in this video about how it shouldn't be up to the victim to forgive, make amends, do all the work so that the perpetrator is forgiven. I agree with you on this and that is one of the reasons I had to cut contact with my mother (and sister). I have spent most of my adult life in and out of counselling (the only one in my family), because of anxiety and depression, trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with me. I was eventually diagnosed with CPTSD but, believe it or not, the scapegoating was not discovered while I was in counselling. It was years after I had stopped counselling that I realized that I wasn't really the "problem" after discovering your work as well as Dr. Rebecca Mandeville and other professionals who have experience and knowledge about this issue. It's like I had all the puzzle pieces floating around in my peripheral vision for a very long time but just couldn't fit them all together. And I also think my psyche couldn't accept it because it was too painful. Anyway, my mother has often said "It wasn't intentional" and, although I do think it may have started off that way, I no longer believe this. The more I called her out, the more frequent and severe the abuse (scapegoating) became. I have come to realize how much energy I have put into trying to fix my relationship with my mother and how very little she has put in. The last couple of years before I went no contact, every time I would hear her say "I do love you", "I do care about you" or "I do want a healthy relationship with you" I would feel disgust. I realized I felt this way because I was being gaslit when she would say these things because her actions/inactions did not match up with these words. She has never reached out to me to ask how she can repair the relationship and it is this indifference that has hurt me the most. I feel like I am rambling and am off topic now. I hope I haven't confused you. Even I am a little confused at this point. When you mentioned in this video about the idea that someone "should" be forgiven, being a "cop out" on the perpetrator's part, something clicked in me because I have been shamed and blamed by my mother for not forgiving her. When, in reality, I have forgiven her, countless times. And it was a genuine apology which is why it hurt so deeply when I realized that, instead of changing her ways, she used my forgiveness as a pass to do the same thing again. She has never taken genuine accountability. If you have any further thoughts regarding the "cop out" of expecting to be forgiven so they can feel better or the parent/child relationship not being an even playing field, I would love to hear them but I am not sure if there is anything else for you to say regarding this other than what you already said in this video.

[@CircaBEFORE]

Forgiveness is a process when you have been severely abused physically, emotionally or mentally. No one should expect forgiveness from anyone. Ever.

[@thescapegoatclub]

100%.

[@willard2729]

I disagree. My father was a drunk. He never abused me but his addiction abused me. He didn’t quit drinking until I was 22, by which time damage was done. He got fired for drinking when I was halfway through college. I grew up in a 700 sf dilapidated house. The neighbors called the board of health on us. We only had two bedrooms so my father slept in the basement, where our two dogs shat. Not sure this was abuse. But it was neglect and the impact on us was enormous. My sister, destroyed by our mother’s death when we were 6 (me) and 11 (her) killed herself in that house at age 38. I KNOW that house of horrors, a side effect of my father’s ignorance and substance abuse , contributed to her death and to my little collection of mental issues And guess what? I LOVED my father. He was a good man who harmed his children thru addiction he eventually beat. My sister hated him but would cry at the thought of him dying. I think these situations are a bit more complicated. Forgiveness is possible. It better be or else I’m out one son and I don’t have any others Ps my dad’s 20th death anniversary is this year and I miss him beyond measure. He once drove drunk the wrong way up a highway exit ramp with me and 3 grade school friends in the car. I’m 63 and a mole told me the other 3 guys, also 63, still discuss this incident 50 years later Good people do bad things some times! I put my fist through a door when I got my first cancer diagnosis. My wife took my son to a hotel. I was mad at myself but it scared my son If I forgave my father (as did my three friends) after nearly killing and definitely humiliating me through drunk driving When he turned 75 we flew first class to Ireland. He went to AA meetings in Ireland! People can forgive a lot. Maybe if my father had directly abused me I’d feel differently. But I think the drunk driving incident counts as abuse. I’ll never forget it but it was forgiven so long ago

[@seahorse251]

I went no contact with my mom at age 28. I'm 64 now. She passed a few years ago. I only had one letter I sent her and one phone call wirh her during that time in mt late 50s. It was because I found out she lied to me abour who my biological father was. The call was to verify what the truth was and she finally confirmed the truth and told me his name. But I realized my who life was a lie and it explained her indifferent toward me. She said, "I was going to tell you." That was another lie she had until I was 28 years old to tell me before I went no contact. After I went no contact she never came looking for me. And everything else you said in your video is true we learn to live with out our family. Mine was never there for me so I just learned to be independent and not count on them. None of us talk to each other. Broken relationships. So many of us dying to tell our stories. Someone should write a book and tell our side of the story. I appreciated everyone who commented about your video. I pray everyone finds some peace ❤

[@thescapegoatclub]

And I wish peace back to you. I am so sorry your mom couldn't tell you such important truths, or take responsibility for keeping it from you. Thank you for sharing. Wishing you the best.

[@seahorse251]

​@@thescapegoatclubthank you for acknowledging that for me. I'm grateful to the person who told me the truth I had been searching for for so long. I'm grateful for your words too ❤ It really is true the truth will set you free.

[@jekalambert9412]

It takes a lot to move past our histories, so I see this video as a reflection of where you're at in processing the reasons for your life and your estrangement, and I'm sure it is helpful to many. I was estranged from my now deceased father for many years and I have estranged myself from my son. There's a whole legacy that I grew up with, then passed on in my parenting before I realized what I was doing. From a soul level, my early life was actually a gift because it was so abusive that I needed to leave to figure out who I was and to have the freedom to make different choices without having to try to make those choices in the context of my family dynamics. Making different choices has been a lifelong process. My son was born before I figured it out, and much of my parenting (while being married to his abusive father) replicated the unhealthy dynamics of my own upbringing. The relationship with my son's father opened my eyes to understanding my own upbringing and was a catalyst for me making deep positive changes in my life. From a soul level, I feel like my mission on earth is to end the legacy of abuse in my family line. Unfortunately, I didn't have the wisdom to give my son this understanding, but I feel like I accomplished my mission despite being unable to help my son understand and move past his upbringing.

[@barbarajohns8288]

Ditto here...Call him and tell him. Apologize for treating him poorly and ask for his forgiveness...I did this and we are very close now.

[@DNA350ppm]

Very good and valid points. As a mother I get a little jittery thinking about these points and especially when I think about how I have become less and less flexible decade by decade, and in many ways have my difficulties with any change and new routines, like it is not easy for me even to stay in touch with the help of electronic devices, as I can't feel any depth and real meaning through a few phrases and emojiis. Children must absolutely have their freedom to live in their times and develop freely, and especially follow a path that is healthy for them, and they have no obligation at all to forgive any old or new hurts, some of which continue in their psyches. If we as parents by our sheer existence are reminding them of traumas at slightest contact, of course the child must move on, completely distance themselves, and do their best to find inner peace and whatever they need to heal. If we for some reason are so insensitive that we don't understand and so inflexible that we can't improve, we must give in and accept and let the child go. We don't own our children. We must think that there might be much needed progress from generation to generation. Maybe each generation can only make so much headway, and we must hope that our children give their children better parents than we ourselves had!? If we only could heed the clues our children give!!! I will reflect on these points as warnings, as (partial) estrangement runs in my family and really good examples are not palpably present from my perspective. (I'm a scapegoat, too.) Thank you very much for food for thought! May you be blessed!

[@johedges5946]

You are incredible! Very insightful Xx

[@Clarence_13x]

Another reason would be, in my experience, a concerted effort to defame the estranged child.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Great point! Yes! (Sadly…)

[@sojournerPs.3740]

What an excellent insightful vid. Thank you for sharing this. Once i learned that the real definition of "forgiveness" simply means releasing it to God, walking away, and not seeking revenge of any king---it was so liberating. It does NOT mean any requirement to reconcile with unrepentant evil. In fact if one believes in the bible, we are called to keep distant from strife, from darkness, from wicked behaviors as they corrupt good manners and peace. Many narcissist warm the pews, but stir up needless strife and bad stuff wherever they go, that is not someone who is for real or genuine. It's as if they live a lie. They have not the gentle nature of Christ nor any humilty, so they are none of His. Yet if they claim to be, We are even told to avoid them, no fellowship with darkness, lies, etc. Just some thoughts.

[@Senora48]

I am estranged from my mother since I was 19 and I am 45 now. It was not easy and still isn’t easy but it is easier than having her IN my life. My sisters still have contact and this woman who I have not talked to nor has she attempted any repairs has a picture of me from when I was in 6th grade sitting on her shelf. This past year she randomly sent me a friend request. No apology, no trying to make repairs, just some weird fantasy she tells herself in her head. It is clear she is not safe. Thank you for this

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. I’m glad you are looking after yourself and are keeping safe. That friend request seems way off beat… and perhaps is more proof to stay away! Take care.

[@rainamatherly3362]

Contact with my mother has been harmful to me, since I was a child. My father saw it, after they divorced, and tried to protect me from it, which I fiercely resisted. As an adult, I see that mere contact with her is damaging to me, even as an adult. I have no doubt she is a narcissist. And as for my stepfather...I think he's a decent person. But he won't oppose her...and I cannot have anyone defending her to me, or failing to actually acknowledge that her behavior is, in fact, abusive. Never, ever reconcile with a narcissist, period. Especially if that narcissist is your parent. And don't consort with any enablers, defenders, or flying monkeys...or anyone who downplays their behavior, even a little, for the sake of "peace". Tolerate no less than open acknowledgment.

[@b.h.r.6866]

From Brazil. Cut ties 3 years ago, never felt guilty or regret. I do not want to go to the funeral either...

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm glad you have made the right choice for you. Thank you for sharing your experience!

[@Avery_4272]

Thank you for sharing these thoughts; I think they're spot on.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thanks for watching! I'm glad you think so!

[@myearsareheavy]

I very much so like this opinion. One of the harder things about my own situation was the parents wishing we could all just “move on” but I now know that it was because living in that accountability was “too hard “ for them, but the reality is, if it’s too hard for a parent to revisit harm they caused then they are discounting that that pain is where their kid spent their childhood and now we are forced to visit at three am or when driving to work or whatever.

[@silentlyjudgingyou]

I didn't know I needed to estrange from my mother , wouldn't have had the tools even if I did. Then she died and after the shock wore off I felt so safe I'd never had that before. If someone doesn't see a reason to reconcile that out ways the possible loss of safety and happiness that's not a them problem. The parents need to do the work on themselves for the sake of people who still speak to them, thing is that doesn't entitle them to anything. Accepting the consequences of their actions is part of doing the work.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you for commenting! So true.

[@silentlyjudgingyou]

@@thescapegoatclub After some thought I've come to the conclusion that any contact attempt more than an apology letter would look to me like a failure to do the work

[@Em-im1yz]

She threw pain pills at me told me to kill myself. I called the policd for help theyre the ones who do mental health checks, then she blamed me told me I runied xmas and if im going to be like this my parents " will cut me off for life" that this year they are going to spend xmas away and im never going to do that to them again. That i have no love in my eyes. Now i need help im going to have surgery and i need someone to look after me. Im terrified of having my dad cutting me off im scared of showing im struggling mentally

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm so sorry. My heart aches reading this. You deserve love and safety from your parents. I hope they will be able to support you when you need it. Know that if they can't it does not reflect who you are, it is a reflection of who they are. Sending you strength and hope xxx

[@Em-im1yz]

@@thescapegoatclub thank you so much for your kind lovely response

[@DarthJarJar10]

Thanks for this video. In my case, my family was warned before they betrayed me and I made the decision to estrange myself from them against even my therapist's points. She instead spent three months telling me I "need to be civil" (I wasn't the one who was abusive for decades) or "just need to move on" (one of my siblings is a psychiatrist and used their influence to try and have me admitted to a psych ward against my will - they lied to the psychiatrist I caved in to see because I needed one and didn't want to fight about it anyway and a bed was reserved. That psychiatrist, my current psychiatrist and my therapist all disagreed that admission was necessary. I refused to go for family therapy at that point because that is where things should have started. Not the further insertion of this psychiatrist sibling into my treatment without my consent). It's so difficult because people blame us for being difficult when we have dealt with difficult "family" members and rampant psychological abuse for years. That nonsense affected my professional career. I don't know for a fact but a number of other experts queried why I was placed on a certain antidepressant which that sibling was happy to hear I was taking. Months after I effect the estrangement, and there was even more unavoidable family drama, I had to restate my position and I had my first epileptic seizure (not a psychogenic one... It was confirmed by an EEG) which could have been directly caused but certainly was not helped by the antidepressant I was on. My neurologist says it is more epileptogenic than others and is not first line treatment. My medical insurance provider also initially refused to cover it for the same latter reason.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I am so sorry to hear the awful things you have gone through. To have someone incorrectly medicated to perpetuate their own lies is just horrific. I hope that you are able to move forwards with the right medications (if you need them) and with a lot of distance from these crazy, nasty people. Take care.

[@StarseedAgenda]

It's important to wake up and see the generation in this time, thus day this age and what a Narccisstic Society teaches them thats more important then enabling and co signing behavior

[@matriarchalprayerproject]

Sometimes it's impossible to function around certain people, you have no choice but to get certain out of your life: it has nothing to do with forgiving, it has to do with functioning in the world.

[@thescapegoatclub]

So true!

[@SanctifiedLady]

I wish I didn’t have a narcissistic mother and I wouldn’t have lost my son. I wasn’t emotionally intact. Dismissive Avoidant is emotional neglect of a child. I figured out why I was a ppl pleasing empath and it was me being groomed by an uncaring mother. I can see why he didn’t feel loved, seen, cared for emotionally. Because my mother was a very very mean person. So I can assume I was very mean and unhinged at times which equals lack of safety and definitely unsupportive. It seems like growing up screwed up you’d do better but just when you think you did, you missed a bunch. I was unsupported and it hurt! I then turned to be unsupportive! It’s been 10yrs and my family is torn apart from what my mother was… I would be all he had to come back to. If he start yelling at me as he did in 2018, I’m going to just let him let it out. Instead of calmly saying “Don’t yell at me or talk to me that way” he said “If you don’t spend me some money you will never hear from me again!”

[@thescapegoatclub]

I’m so sorry you’ve gone through so much. The ripple effects of narcissism can go a long way…. And also, you’ve seen it now. And once we see it, we have choices and can break the cycle. Wishing you the best, and thank you so much for commenting ❤️❤️

[@danielgermano3505]

6th reason: toxic, outside influence to harm the family. The enemy uses children to destroy the family structure!!!

[@thescapegoatclub]

Good point! Thanks for sharing, I think they will use any tactics and people they can, sadly.

[@janinesmith8252]

Two of my four children are alcoholics. They were very abusive both physically and verbally towards me and my husband, and they stole from us. My husband and I do not drink. We loved them with all our hearts and we're ALWAYS there f or them. My daughter is also bipolar and ny son has a girlfriend living at his house along with his wife, he told me it was the " new normal " I am concerned hiw my 10 year old grandson is affected by this. My heart aches for them! I just hate how the alcohol has ruined their life and our relationship 😢

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm sorry to hear your situation. Substance use is so hard for families to deal with. I hope you are keeping yourselves safe. We can only hope that with time they will seek treatment and perhaps be able to function better in future. Take care.

[@nicolewheeler8159]

I get it now, after reading the comments and seeing where your hearts emojis are, is the same place your heart lays, and that’s on the other side of the parent of the child who went through this. It’s for the child who did, if I’m right I am so sorry for you. I truly am😔

[@thescapegoatclub]

The side I am on is that of healthy relationships. I don't support staying in any relationships that cause harm when we have tried to find a solution but the other side is determined not to listen. I am sorry your situation is causing so much pain for you. I wish you well.

[@valerieshy8749]

Great video. So helpful is so many ways for those of us dealing with difficult situations.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thanks for the kind comment! I am glad you found the vid helpful.

[@morrisdennis]

I forgive but nvr forget, but its unlikely i will ever fellowship with that person ever again...

[@jeffthegraveguy8629]

Regarding reason 4, forgiveness usually serves the perpetrator, not the victim. The victim can move on and be extremely better off, never having forgiven the perpetrator. If the focus of the relationship is on forgiveness, then there is probably a lot of victim blaming going on as well. Instead of focusing on forgiveness, focus instead on healing.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Great point! Thanks for sharing and putting it so well. Yes to healing!!

[@kamrenjones4811]

Hi just watched for the first time great 5 reasons. I would also say that a child may not wanna come back is that the they wanna make the parents look bad.

[@thescapegoatclub]

This could be true, and I'm sure it happens. It's not one I like- feels like revenge to me, and I think we ultimately lose if that's our main motivation.

[@mishmacD26]

You should honor your daughter’s boundaries by not contacting her imo.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you for saying this. I think what can get missed is that parents can think that not contacting can show that they aren't trying as parents. The thing is that a lot of people estrange because they feel their parent has too much influence over them, so having boundaries respected really helps them feel heard and seen. Hopefully with boundaries respected the 'child' will feel more comfortable in trying to have a relationship with their parent. I appreciate you taking the time to comment!

[@anthonysullivan9697]

OMG!

[@dannevirkenz]

Over time, I think you just give up. You can’t just keep returning time after time and eventually work out that it. Is one sided.

[@thescapegoatclub]

yes!

[@LSMH528Hz]

1✔2✔3✔4✔5✔

[@markkamp2255]

did I buy the wrong pony or the wrong independent school? My daughter was always hyper sensitive and I tried my best to support her, this is unkind. Is it really always the parents fault?

[@lelandwatson4925]

Rich parents tend to have kids with addiction and other maladaptive behaviors. Unless you wanted her to be a perpetual extension of you, and didn't ask her if that was ok, she's decided to "get a life" as they say

[@DickDatchery]

No

[@thescapegoatclub]

No, it is not always the parent's fault. However, when a child decides to estrange it is important to listen to their reasons and understand these are valid for them, even if we don't agree. Like with any healthy relationship, we need to understand each other's perspectives.

[@hasanyahya8384]

I find it hilarious that at every socioeconomic class, the same behavior emerges. You could be millionaires, middle class or in poverty yet emotionally neglectful parents will always start recounting material blessings, here let me show you examples: Poverty class: We never threw you into the streets, be grateful we gave you our meals Middle class: Be grateful we cared for your education and took you to doctors when sick Upper: Be grateful for the luxuries we've afforded you and the private schooling Notice a pattern? I've personally seen impoverished families with very loving children, know why? Because the parents themselves or a big influence on the children was loving. You're probably impoverished emotionally too

[@heystarfish100]

@@hasanyahya8384 Possibly, then again, ah bit of a long stretch of the old imagination in many instances.

[@AS-hx8ff]

Do you know what else. They tell lies😢

[@christineblumke8493]

Christian values are lost in this modern society. We should not dwell in the past. but live in the future, Isaiah 43. 18:19 🙏 Practice good Christians values...

[@thescapegoatclub]

Not hurting other people is also a Christian value. I believe it’s important not to cherry pick the one that serves our agenda and generally try to do the best we can towards others. When people continue to hurt us and we try to justify it through a religious lens, we are perpetrating harm and enabling bad behaviour.

[@MaryDunford]

​@thescapegoatclub As a Christian, I completely agree with you. Few things irk me more than the Bible being cherry picked to justify behaviours that promote unnecessary suffering and abuse. It's a narrow road for a reason.

[@StarseedAgenda]

I'm sorry bit all your doing is enabling the children's behavior and giving them words to use against their parents these kids are addicted and abusive to their parents and your simply fueling the kids of this time , these kids are NOT 1960 OR 1940 kids they show no respect, so all your doing is what every one else does and says excusing and enabling the children

[@yo80090]

yeah, no way you coukd possibily have done many things wrong to your children, of course. stay strong, not even a step backwards dude

[@MaryDunford]

1970s kid here. 👋 Giving kids better communication tools doesn't teach them disrespectful behaviour. If anything, it promotes stronger communication and mutual understanding. Kids learn through example. If you want to be respected by your kids then consistently demonstrate it as they grow up. Respect isn't submission and it isn't a one-way street. You might be the respectful unicorn and your kid is the stubborn exception to the rule. But if you want a relationship with your kid you might want to consider it might not just be them. You're the adult, after all. They probably learned most of their communication skills from you.

[@ladyv5655]

I never entirely cut off contact with my mother, but I did put geographical distance from ages 18 - 30 and then again from ages 35 to age 51. She passed away last year and she said something that showed me that not only did she never truly know me, she created a personality and a "place" for me based on what she wanted , not what was real. Even from childhood, I kept emotional distance. It was survival for me. I wish I could say I miss her, but that would be a lie. I'm not dancing on her grave, but I feel sorry for her.

[@lauramiller6294]

I bet you would take her money though. If not good for you.

[@ladyv5655]

@lauramiller6294 , well aren't you charming? Are you projecting, maybe? Turns out she lost most of her money in a scam a few years before her passing. She had her monthly social security benefit and she set aside enough money to pay for her burial. She lived in a small apartment attached to my brother's house and she owned a 20 year old car that she hadn't driven for 2 years at the time of her death. I assure you, I had more money at the time of her death than she did. Your comment was really gross. Get help.

[@birdieculture-2]

Your experience is literally because any random persons allowed to create children, and for THEIR purposes, they don't think they ever need to know who you are, they only need to know what they want from you. Its truly sick, this whole idea of allowing anyone create kids, parental license really needs to be a thing. All parents are narcissistic codependent freaks.

[@lilianfowler7988]

❤❤❤

[@lilianfowler7988]

​@@ladyv5655No I refused it because it came with strings.

[@Lyrielonwind]

If you have been decades trying to be accepted by your mother and you were never enough, you can't expect her to change when she is older (mine is 95 yo) and still confronts her children among them. I have kept the fantasy that they will change and life passed me by.

[@limolnar]

Same situation. I found that my brothers and mother had a different dynamic that doesn't gel with my outlook on life. I resisted for decades and finally had to let it all go in my late-40s. What a time to make a decision though...especially with all the life changes at that time. Still, it's better than staying in a toxic environment.

[@thescapegoatclub]

So true. Thank you for sharing your perspective. I hope you are doing ok and thank you for your courage in sharing your experience.

[@MiaLa16]

Estranged adult child here.This video was so on point. You put in the words exactly how I feel and I thank you for that. I feel so validated right now. ❤ And I wanted to add that I find it so silly that there are people out there who really think that we cut off our parents just like that, because we think it’s a trend or whatever. Just a few short years ago I was convinced I had a normal childhood and loving parents, only to find out that living through domestic violence, verbal and emotional abuse and neglect and tiptoeing and constantly reading others‘ moods and just living with anxiety in general ever since that I can remember, was actually the opposite of normal childhood. But a few years ago I would never watch a video like this and think „oh I’m bored, let me go and cut my both parents off, that seems to be trendy right now“. 😂 But I couldn’t figure out why I dreaded talking on the phone to my mom so much or why my father yells at me while he’s driving like a maniac (and I was 5 months pregnant at that point) with me on the front passenger seat. And yet I still believed that they loved me and wanted the best for me. Being unable to make sense of all those contradictions made me question absolutely everything about me and them and then finally brought me where I am now.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I am so glad you said this, and said it so perfectly! I agree 100%! It feels like such a lazy option to just place the blame on people for estranging by labelling them as uncaring, selfish or not thinking. Perhaps this happens occasionally, but in my experience it's the opposite. And you just reminded me of my father's driving that left me terrified to get into a car with him.... and his justification was that other people were driving dangerously slowly!?!! I'm so glad you are seeing things clearly and doing better. Thanks for your comment!

[@MiaLa16]

@@thescapegoatclub Wait is your father my father?! LOL It’s like they all use the same textbook! Mine used to have that same excuse, along with „there’s no police here“, „all these rules are unnecessary and stupid“, „I’m in a hurry“, „you’re being too sensitive“ etc. He’ll say anything that suits him in the moment. And it’s not that he occasionally does it or just in emergency situations, it’s every single time he’s driving. I’m honestly surprised that he hasn’t killed anybody yet (and hopeful that it never happens). I actually heard dr Ramani say somewhere that the connection between reckless driving and grandiose narcissism (and I’m pretty sure that my dad is grandiose narcissist) is SCIENTIFICALLY proven. I found it fascinating. Thank you for your kind answer, I’m honestly always flabbergasted when someone resonates with something I wrote and maybe even likes it.

[@thescapegoatclub]

@@MiaLa16 Dr Ramini is such a legend! I'll see if I can find what she says about narcissism and driving- makes a lot of sense from my experience (and what you've said), so I'd love to see the evidence behind it. You write very clearly, in a balanced, thoughtful way. What's not to like ;) ?!

[@trinity2860]

Grow up

[@trinity2860]

This whole thing being estranged from your parents is ridiculous

[@fabulouslife4646]

I am low contact with my mother. Every time i interact with her, i am reminded why i went low contact.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Sounds very wise!

[@mesalouis8976]

I have been low contact with my mom for a few months. She called me yesterday and berated me, calling me an alcoholic even though I have never touched alcohol in my life.🤷🏾‍♀️ I think I’m ready for the final cutoff. I’m changing my number today.

[@JanetSnakehole28]

Last I checked, I'm an autonomous human, not someone's property. I also don't have a cattle brand on my backside, nor did I sign any kind of Scientology-style loyalty contract at birth. The biggest theme I see with parents on forums is they want their 'stuff' back, stuff being their child. If you don't take care of your stuff, you can lose it.

[@tofusamurai22]

Fuggin' A ! ❤

[@purposedrivenwoman]

Yeah and that goes both ways

[@nancybartley4610]

The parent has many years to create the child. A child doesn't wake up at 18 or 21 and suddenly put the whole damaging picture together. In fact, adult children may never completely put the picture together. But they do know they are not well mentally and that life has been confusing and painful. Life will always be confusing and painful but it is more so for children raised in toxic environments because the confusion is internal, not external. Some of us don't put this picture together until well after 21. We don't get that we are still in the throes of abuse from those who created us. Unfortunately the situation can get worse as siblings raised with us might begin to contribute to the sick dynamic. Attempting to hold onto what was thought to be a loving family can mess you up even more. The longer you hold on, the more you are damaged and the harder it is to separate and heal.

[@thescapegoatclub]

so true that it can take so long to see what is happening. because it is our normal. Once we start to see, we can start the ball rolling on change. Wishing you all the best!

[@WVgrl59]

I had a great relationship with my son into his early thirties until he married a woman with bpd. We took them on and all expense vacation we had given it a thousands of dollars and all I did was make a little note on the thermostat that jokingly saying, "you crazy people, wait until it's 70° outside to turn the a/c on° - it was 63°outside. She got mad because she thought I was calling her crazy and wanted to know why I didn't go downstairs to the basement to talk to them about it. When I didn't even know there was a problem. It was 60° in the basement without the AC on. I don't know how much colder they wanted it but they could have just opened the windows indoors. Lol

[@heystarfish100]

You wanna bet? How can a child be raised in a loving and stable home with two parents who care deeply about him and where he has the love and support from all of his relatives yet one day this bright kid with so many gifts and support just be totally flat with demeanor, lack any empathy, say outrageous things suddenly and betray everyone in his family, disappear and go no contact and then file a order of protection with the County Court for when you try to find him and discuss his problems he has been having with us that he has never ever previously mentioned? To me the only thing that comes to mind is that they have zero ability to communicate during a difficult time as they face transition into adulthood. So many young people today have completely lost their minds in so many ways. So many parents have such similar experiences with their estranged child it is scary. We never saw this coming at all.

[@heystarfish100]

@@bubalewey800 I only provided one scenario. I closely know many toxic households. One where four children grew up in extreme situations of despair. Once they came of age 3 of 4 attended College, graduated with B.S. degrees and are now earning 100k+ per year, are involved with steady marriages, own their own homes, are raising children in great neighborhoods and doing a fantastic job at it all. The 4th had opportunities but never applied their self and is living in a less than ideal environment. I have knowledge of many family situations and I am not stupid enough to think that one size shoe fits all.

[@heystarfish100]

@@bubalewey800 You have a lot of hang ups that are not allowing you to move on. Stop it already.

[@ceehunka7344]

I have been and still am a scapegoat in my broken family. I became immersed in trying to fix it, even choosing a career where I could learn about toxic family systems to help empower individuals. It did not have any impact on my relationships where toxicity was at play. I am still trying to have a better understanding of significant others where this is at play. We do need community where we can express our feelings safely and not having contact in order to be ok is a necessary outcome in my experience. I have 2 close family members who are very much aligned with each other when it comes to negativity and blame. Physical distance does not shut this down. I can no longer have them in my life. It is hard 😢

[@thescapegoatclub]

It is so hard. And also, the choice we have to make that can bring so much to our lives. More than we will ever get with these types of people around. Sending you all the best xxx

[@joannav.3602]

I read that and it sounded like something I wrote. I had to go complete no contact with my very abusive, neglectful and just plain full of rage mother. Hard to call her a "mother", but I will. I have peace in my life and she's glad I'm gone. She hasn't reached out in five years because she suffers from a very bizarre disorder whereas she hates all women. I mean ALL. It's a childhood trauma situation with her, but she'd never admit it. I feel sorry for her, but I have peace and this disconnect is on her. And, you're right...physical distance did not shut it down. My mother even went so far as to call my fiance to tell him to "run" and made up things like you couldn't imagine. What mother does that to her own daughter? Unreal. Good for you.

[@plurpee.]

My father tried to shoot me--I think that's reason enough...

[@al6347]

My dad came home from a wedding drunk. He got his gun pointed at me and said bang and laughs. My mom said it was empty. He went outside and fired it. It was not empty.

[@plurpee.]

@@al6347 I'm sorry for your experience...

[@birdieculture-2]

wtf, your fathers should never have been allowed to make children, sick world we live in

[@limolnar]

Estrangement is incredibly painful for the child. It's one of the most difficult decisions a person can make; worse than a divorce...it's a cutting off of personal history but obviously necessary. For those who have made this decision, join an estrangement group; it really helps.

[@nancybartley4610]

How do you find an estrangement group? I want an in-person type. Is yours in-person?

[@samanthathompson9812]

It blighted my whole life which is almost over.

[@limolnar]

@@nancybartley4610 I only know of Facebook estrangement groups.

[@ElyJane]

Is there an estrangement group in London? I can find one The website Stand Alone stopped in 2023 for support groups for adult children from an estranged family

[@steveos5112]

Can’t wait for you to raise a child. Sure bliss

[@diashelle]

I owe nothing to a woman who regularly beat me as an grade schooler with a metal pancake turner. She told me hitting me was better than how she’d been raised-her parents yelled at her and it accomplished nothing. Clearly shouting had not improved her character and conduct, In her mind, beating her children was an improvement. I owe nothing to a woman who repeatedly told me she was going to move in with me when she was old, and then I could change her poopy diapers. I owe nothing to a woman who called her 17-year-old daughter a bleeding heart liberal, for the crime of caring about what happens to other people. I owe nothing to a woman who instigates arguments over topics she knows we disagree about. I owe nothing to a woman who talks trash about her other adult children and gets furious at me for taking their part. Walking away from her after begging for a better relationship for more than 40 years was the best option for me. I owe her no final explanation. She justifies everything she did, offering no apologies. This does not make me a coward. It takes courage to face reality, the reality that the woman who raised me has no empathy, who has rarely expressed remorse for her actions with me and many others.

[@thescapegoatclub]

100%! You owe her nothing (I actually have a video coming out with the same title!) and owe it to yourself to find a supportive, peaceful life. The bravery it takes to walk away from this is immense. Good for you! I hope you are doing well now.

[@diashelle]

@@thescapegoatclub I’m getting better with time, therapy, my meditation practice, a loving husband and adult children. Estrangement is not a blithe choice. It took more than 40 years of continual abuse and recognizing she would not stop to let go.

[@traveler7929]

I’ve built an amazing life with a circle of friends and my adult kids. Why would I want to go back to being criticized, used and manipulated? I’ve spent plenty of time considering all my parents have walked through to become the people they are, but they aren’t going to treat me any better because I empathize with their struggles.

[@TheForbinExperiment]

This. Very well put. I agree.

[@ninakathryn]

I agree with you 💯 why would anyone want to be critised, used, and manipulated? Congratulations on making a better life for yourself and putting your own mental well-being ahead of making your parents feel better......

[@Tempted_Lotus]

Forgiveness doesnt require reconnection.

[@PeiPeisMom]

My father just died 2 weeks ago, my mother ten years ago. I wanted to estrange from them from the time I was a teen, but didn't have the tools. By the time I had my own child, I was in need of support due to a failed marriage and had to crawl back. Kept my head down and tried to become independent as soon as possible. I'm 58 now--never quite managed to break it off with them because my daughter loved them and due to family dynamics never did quite understand why I dreaded seeing them. Tomorrow is my father's funeral, and I do NOT want to go, as my twin sister is in charge of everything due to the fact that she is 100% in charge of his estate and wouldn't let me help with his care or arrangements and was always my worst bully.. Your videos have helped me a lot these past few days, helping me see I'm not a freak or alone. Thank you

[@sweetbeep]

I feel this... I'm so sorry

[@joannav.3602]

I'm sorry you went through all of that. Did you go to the funeral? I too spend a lifetime of wanting to cut ties, but stayed. Stayed and took the abuse. I cut ties with my mother five years ago and don't regret it and she seems happy I did, because she hasn't reached out at all. She refuses to apologize for all the abuse and neglect she put upon me since birth. She only says, "I did the best I could", but leaving a 7 year old home alone for a week is "not doing your best". Curious is you went to the funeral and how you feel now.

[@sweetbeep]

@@joannav.3602 I think these parents think that just because they "did their best", they don't owe anyone an apology for their mess ups.

[@TJMoolTricia]

I opted out of my dad's funeral the day after Christmas this year for similar reasons. Of course I got guilt tripped by my step mom, no matter I had just been there a few days before to be with him and say goodbye on his death bed, also no matter I'd flown back and forth for years, paid for dinner for everyone, always making all the amends and doing all the work - fawning. When I decided not to go, it was the most painful time of my life. But, I have zero regrets. I completely chose my own family and me. I felt my Dad's blessing on it. My original family always makes themselves look great, powerful, together and in charge, and they are actually fundamentally immature, reactive and hostile and very mean spirited. It was all so confusing, I thought it was all always my fault. I thought that was me, and decades of recovery later, I finally realized it's not me, it's scapegoating. It's a gnarly process, but remember to trust your gut.

[@joannav.3602]

@@sweetbeep exactly. “Doing your best” means you never stop trying. It’s like, since when was there a cut off date?

[@annieparker9754]

I am the mom of a daughter who although she hasn’t officially cut me out of her life, I know she has consciously put an emotional barrier between us. She has been going to therapy because of me and her childhood. I’ve heard from other members in our family that she feels I was emotionally neglectful towards her. I’m trying to sort through how I have let her down and not been there for her in the ways she needed/wanted. I’m starting to see how my own childhood and how I was raised is overlapping in this situation. I have sent her a “love letter”, an amends letter and have just tried to do anything I can to support her now as a young mom of 2 girls. I have offered to talk about all of this but she has not replied to any of these gestures (although we are in each other’s company at least twice a month). I’m going to try and go to therapy to see if someone can help me sort through my feelings and help me comb through my part in her pain and hopefully help me to know how to bridge our hearts back together again (if possible). My question is do I share with her that I am seeing a therapist or will that seem like I’m making myself the victim or being passive aggressive? I have also wondered about offering to go with her to her therapist (or does that come off as pushy?). I’m really intimidated by my daughter (sounds silly to say that). She is very pragmatic, very smart and very strong willed (and an incredibly loving mom!!!), and I am not good at conflict and tend to want to just shy away from hard conversations. Thank you in advance! (Not sure how to see if there is a reply on KZbin …. Fingers crossed) THANK YOU so much for your videos!❤️🕊️

[@GracenCourage]

Your comment strikes a chord with me because it so similar to my situation. My daughter too now young mom of two has started with putting an emotional barrier at the beginning which developed into a full blown estrangement. You’re reminding myself from 9 years ago, the self doubt and questioning. Know that it’s a dangerous path. I know because I’ve been there. You must hold your ground and start recreating your life. This generation do not recognise the value of respect for parents as it is in other cultures. Even if you’ve done everything right, they don’t value the sacrifice of their upbringing, but they will make sure their children will.

[@annieparker9754]

Hi. It’s always comforting to us to know we are not alone in difficult situations isn’t it? I’m curious as to what you mean by this being dangerous? I think we are in different situations because I can clearly see some things I did that I wish I could undo. I know my own childhood has made me very insecure and lacking in true confidence. I reacted with hurt pride when I first learned of my daughter’s opinions of my mothering. I felt that being a “good” mom was something I felt confident about, so when that self image was shattered it made me very defensive and dismissive of her experiences and her “truth” (I hate that term but it is appropriate here). I’m sorry your child cut you out totally- so brutal and painful 😢

[@ericaransom5781]

I am estranged from my mom by choice. I hear a lot in what you say. I can't speak for everyone else on this platform but my estrangement, from past to present, I was dealing with the same woman. My advise is, you choose therapy not your relationship chooses therapy for you. You will not get what you need out of it. You can spend decades and get nowhere closer to a possible reconciliation. All the reasons give in this video are great valid reasons for estrangement. My decision are more than half of them. My mother is not a good sounding board. She is not affectionate. She doesn't understand me nor tried to. As an adult I realized that I stopped looking for her to parent me a long time ago well before I left her home and I do not like her much as a friend. We evaluate I friends much in this same manner, we just end friendships we that person doesn't not respect you. We assume that with family, that love and respect should be given. I applaud you on thinking about what you might have to do for yourself to help repair what is broken. I think your steps are good starting steps and interested to see how your recovery helps you. Good luck to you!

[@TheShamuraja]

Hey, just a few thoughts. And I hope you don't feel too offended, because it's just some info and not a proper conversation we're having on here. Therapy can be used to form a better self and a more stable self. If you get that part for yourself right, a proper normal relationship between adults can be formed! It seems bit mushy and sentimental, what you've written about the love letter and so on. As if you're wanting to have a relationship with a little daughter, which she is not. An idealistic view maybe and a wish to have a relationship with her as if she were a little girl ? Which is probably just a burden on her. Secondly, you said that she is a grown adult, a mom with two whole young kids!! Do you think she has the time to focus on all your emotional turmoil? She is probably busy and trying to figure out how to not have some bad patterns or reactions herself with her kids going forward. Plus trying to navigate a challenging situation as a new mom. Feeling some shame is not a bad thing, feeling like one was not perfect back then as a mom is not a bad thing. All those things should be worked on in therapy, instead of putting it on your daughter. Wrong address. I don't think she deserves that. And afterwards, when one is more free and stable - really, it will be much easier to come together as two whole adults! By the way, after therapy she won't trigger you as much😉, just by being herself and developing her life and her own future. So it's a plus :) And you won't trigger her, just by putting your feelings of insecurity, doubt, shame etc. on her. Okay, I really hope you do get help. Just not from a daughter. She is not your lifeline and don't put her in that position. Also kudos to you!, that you even mentioned therapy. Really! 🎉🎉 It's like a university for grown-ups. Don't be afraid. We all did some weird stuff and it's okay to correct some of it.

[@susant236]

I resonate so much with your words, which I am sure were not easy to express! Not all estrangement situations are about an abusive, neglectful or bad parent. Or a parent who is incapable or refuses to examine themselves, make changes or is toxic in some way. And no humans are perfect, we are complex beings. Not one parent was born to be a perfect person in their child's life and meet every need. Sometimes our "best" is not enough, or things happen that make it near impossible to do everything right. I admire you for recognizing your own need for therapy and opening your own heart to trying to learn how to move forward. There is not a lot out there on the internet to support parents in estrangement situations. Certainly, many parents struggle to examine themselves and WHY their grown child feels the way they do. Having said that, there are some awesome parents whose children chose estrangement too!

[@RaptureInRed]

Hey. Thank you so much. Nothing is more frustrating than being told that I must forgive. Particularly when my Mom and Dad haven't actually changed.

[@thescapegoatclub]

You're welcome! thanks for the comment!

[@jasonz9902]

It's mothers day as I type this. This video helped a lot. Forgiving someone that takes no responsibility for the deepest of wounds anyone could have: being betrayed by your mother, is the utmost in forgiveness more compassion required then so called " mothers love" or unconditional love. I not there. I didn't call.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you for commenting. I'm glad the video helped. Mother's day can be brutal when we're dealing with a parent who was/is incapable of the basics of human decency. Hope you're doing ok.

[@gwdavey]

I'm 40 years old and have been estranged for 5+ years. I also live 2,000+ miles away from my hometown. Simply put: My life is better without my parents and siblings being a part of it. So, why would I want to invite their chaos, control, accusations, hostility and dysfunction back into my life?

[@thescapegoatclub]

Good point, well made! Thanks for sharing your experience. I am glad you are doing well now.

[@nancybartley4610]

I wanted to work on the relationship with my family but had no idea how to. When I tried, I was told what I could say and how I was to behave which seemed the reason I had left the relationship in the first place. A dead end street. I am sure i am to blame for my family problems but not for all of it. So I figure we have to be able to accept that we both have our views and needs. It seemed theirs mattered, but not mine.

[@nmc1859]

Familiar with scapegoats. They don't want to even imagine that you have your own feelings and needs bc they have totally objectived you. That is not a relationship worth keeping imo

[@abvincent12]

My father abused all three of his kids horribly - and my biological mother. She never did anything about it - simply took us back day after day to be destroyed more and more. After years of me providing for her - when someone didn't jump for her she told me how no one looked out for her. I said "Well who looked out for us?". I have not spoken to her since that call and do not intend to. Thank god I somehow managed to navigate all that abuse as a kid and find my way successfully in the world. But it isn't easy without friends or others in my life because the one thing the abuse did to me was ensure I would never trust anyone or let any one get too close in my life. It's like it is so innate in my mind that trusting people will lead to hurt and pain. It's just easier to keep dogs. Though I will say, my life has been so much more pleasant not hearing my biological mother's voice any more. Every day I wonder if I will regret it when she dies - but I remind myself, I didn't cause this I am simply reacting to the actions of them. What other choice did I really have? None. Sad really, because even in absence, she and my now dead father still manage to infect and negatively influence my life.

[@imisseveryone2716]

@anvincent - I respect your need to distance yourself from your sorce of pain. It's horrible when a man/husband/father abuses his family the way yours did. As you stated, he abused your mother as well as you and your siblings. Is there a chance that your mother was his first victim his unexpected abuse of her terrified her. She may have been so traumatized that she became submissive. The fact that she couldn't protect herself could play into why she couldn't protect you. Please understand I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings or your need for distance. It's absolutely necessary for one to protect themselves from past trauma. You deserve to live a life that is as free of that as possible. I wish you well.

[@LSMH528Hz]

May I suggest another reason ? Maybe the realization you/we/I never ever actually knew these people at all to begin with and they have been strangers behind the facade mask all along ? It's funny when you try to reunite with strangers into some unreal past you think you remember but actually was never there. Or is it some kind of wishful thinking we belonged somewhere in the past ? And finding out it's kinda like chasing a mirage trying to find it again ? Funny thing this "time", you can never go back anyway and sometimes that's a good thing I guess. It also sounds like something a narcissistic person would say, "can't we just go back to the way things were" ? In the end I guess there's nothing else to do but try to find ourselves again in our own inner temple and celebrate the time we have now as best we can. People who suck us back to some unreachable past illusion just aren't any good so no wonder we evade them and get "estranged". Though that word sounds so strange to me now... It has to belong to yesterday, the turn of a new page. Anyway, I guess this sounds like a fuzzy incoherent story but that's just because I'm writing it just after waking up from some weird dream I just had, before I forget and the sunrise washes it away. Pachanga Boy's - Time kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXi3m3uJd76Egtk

[@johnhamlin3345]

Very well expressed.

[@LSMH528Hz]

It was ? I guess I have my moments.Thanks for the feedback, it's much appreciated.@@johnhamlin3345

[@FMT2003]

I estranged myself from both my parents (they divorced when I was very young) because they kept intentionally hurting me. I could never predict what they were going to do. I never felt safe with either of them.

[@thescapegoatclub]

That unpredictability is awful. I hope you're doing ok now and are safe away from them. Sending you all the best

[@maryj4894]

Reason 6: the mother starts a KZbin channel bashing the child and arguing it’s not her fault and it’s all society’s and the child’s fault.

[@thescapegoatclub]

oh no. that's awful. I hope you don't give it a second of your attention.

[@BAsed_AFro]

Such delusions of superiority and infallibility w the whole "I can't be wrong!" silliness is a huge problem for many folks these days, and is why so many flat out refuse to contend with that there are issues at hand.

[@etaokha4164]

She never wanted me and never loved me nor her grandchildren

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm so sorry.

[@tammysmith1398]

I don't want them back. Sure they feel the same about me. I am ok with it.

[@FierceRabbit11]

Hi Chess! I have found support and quiet strength in your content for some time now. I am a mostly solitary person (by choice), and these days have been queueing a video (or three) of yours when I feel I need a hug. It helps a lot to hear your insights, guidance, humility, and at times simply your voice and your theme music help me to catch my breath. I'm far too sensitive a person to read Comment sections generally, and can only imagine what goes on (as you alluded to in this video). But, I think there must also be a lot of folks who feel like I do, who are warm and supportive of your courage and of your difficult work; folks who are deeply grateful, as I am. However that shakes out for this, your latest offering, please know that here on the other side of the pond, you are one of the teachers that have helped me find my voice and my way. Best wishes.

[@bonnielewin8520]

I am also very sensitive. I have been reading a lot of comments people leave and for me it has helped me know that I am far from being alone when it comes to dealing with narcissists in my life.

[@ajrwilde14]

Yes her videos have helped me too.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Oh Zac, wow, your comment really made my day! I make my videos just for people like you. Thank you for being so brave to say hello, and thank you for spending time on the channel. I am so glad it helps. You clearly see the vibe I'm trying to put out on the content too (space to breathe- perfect!). I am constantly trying to improve my videos and will think of you watching for inspiration. Thank you so much for being here, even when I don't hear you. Sending you the best!

[@BAsed_AFro]

Most folks today are beyond fed up with the antiquated “Authoritarian” parenting style, which very closely resembles narcissistic personality disorder. It may have served its purpose when your child was an infant… or maybe if you own a dog. But it’s no longer acceptable to treat a grown ass adult like that, period! The delusions of superiority and infallibility, the whole “I can’t be wrong!” thing, along with the controlling/manipulative behavior are simply no longer going to be tolerated by most people.

[@thescapegoatclub]

100%. I’ve been thinking a lot on this point. Authoritarian, rigid, emotionally limited parenting feels narcissistic. I am wondering if there is validity to the idea of narcissistic parenting, which can be carried out by non-narcissists, or people who aren’t (as) narcissistic with other people? Video to come on this, I think!

[@cherithlindemann4449]

This video describes pretty much all the reasons I don’t want to end the estrangement.

[@HorticulturaconlosZamoras]

Too much drama

[@gwdavey]

My only regret is not having cut off contact 20 years earlier.

[@AM-tc9ct]

Thanks for this video. I feel likes it’s a very fair and non judgmental assessment of why estrangement happens and why it may continue with individuals. Some of the reasons resonate with me more than others. I also can see or hope that is those being estranged watch this, that they can understand why and a path forward if that seems to be good for their situation.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your kind words and wish you all the best.

[@kevinhornbuckle]

An insurmountable reason that an adult child could have for cutting off a parent is a personality disorder absorbed from an alienating parent. Children can and do inherit psychological problems from troubled parents. They don’t always end up recognizing the parent as troubled, and end up with a variety of that parent’s emotional disorder. An adult child child can feel fully justified in cutting off a loving and dedicated parent.

[@thescapegoatclub]

sometimes, yes.

[@seahorse251]

​@@thescapegoatclubsometimes I wonder too if undiagnosed autism in both the parent and the child contribute to communication problems leading to estrangement.

[@DianeJones-om8li]

Thank you. It was very interesting to hear what you had to say. I have not spoken to my grown daughter in ten years. I had no idea why except a divorce. After listening to you I have an idea. I don't think she needs me anymore.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm sorry, wishing you well.

[@GracenCourage]

Bless your heart. That’s exactly what I think. Once they don’t need anything from you, they will even “create” an abuse story to keep you us out of their lives.

[@climbingjellybean]

​​​@@GracenCourageYou perhaps haven't understood what she meant by 'needs'... Every person has needs from a relationship, not things they just benefit from receiving from a person. In a relationship you need someone to care about you, want to give and take equally, want to listen to you, etc. Without those relational needs being met, and trying to maintain the relationship is a drain on you in too many ways, there isn't a need for that relationship. If you're saying your child is making things up, perhaps you haven't dug deep enough into what you may have been (or not) bringing to that relationship. If you can't or won't do the self-reflection, you will keep running on your treadmill thinking you're a victim of your child saying they've had enough of their relational needs not being met.

[@mxxx3591]

Spoken by an ED who has never been a parent and loved a child. Pray for your own forgiveness.

[@thescapegoatclub]

What is an ED?

[@CP-ns2ww]

Thank you so much. Your video was so validating. I’ve been estranged from my parents 9 months now. It hasn’t been easy. ❤

[@Sophie-ur2qb]

Reliving CSA was the final straw for me. I don't see how i can forgive them for this. I've never been heard or believed. So no point trying anymore. I'm just hurting myself more by staying. They need me for them, not for me.

[@Sarah-fs1xw]

Dislike for toxic forgivness

[@kiv_daniels]

You’re not perfect but when you make mistakes you apologize, communicate and make changes. Some parents would continue their toxic ways no matter what, they look in your eyes, know they’re hurting you and repeat it without remorse. I want to be able to trust myself, I cut my Aunt off who I felt was a mother figure to me. She knew she was hurting me but at a point it seemed to me she couldn’t help it so I had to leave. Now I feel safe and I trust myself to keep me safe. I gave her so many chances, I told myself tolerance was a good trait(I tolerated her until I felt suicidal), I told myself the Bible wanted us to honour our parents, I told myself I would want my kids to forgive me if I wronged them so forgave her over and over(before I left I admitted to myself that my kids wouldn’t want a broken mother so I wouldn’t stay for her to destroy me). I didn’t knowing estrangement was a thing but I thought to myself the person I thought I knew never existed so what was the point, I felt like she had died and I was grieving so much. I grieved and now I’m better with her not being in my life.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm sorry you've had to go through so much. Glad that you are recovering now. Take care

[@sail3695]

My challenge with forgiveness: After months of silence, our adult child (30) announced they'd be estranging themselves from their mother over issues that occurred during high school. During our final meeting, they let me know they wouldn't be around for holidays or family gatherings. I told them that if they were seeking therapy, both parents would join for sessions upon request. As we parted, they told me that I was always welcome to visit their place. I replied that I wouldn't be showing up anywhere their mother wasn't invited. I've always thought estrangement to be a last resort. The fact that our AC chose to forego any other option in favor of pitching this hand grenade into our family is something that, to my current thinking, is unforgivable. I'll never say never, but given the laundry list of messes we've been asked to clean up on behalf of our AC, I'm feeling pretty strongly that this should be the final episode.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. It sounds very complicated, with a lot of deep hurt involved. Estrangement is very hard. I hope time will bring more clarity and peace for you.

[@GenChanger]

Great video! You tackled this uncomfortable topic with kindness and fairness. Openness to feedback is indeed key, as is honest communication, humility and forgiveness. Most importantly, willingness to examine oneself when the feedback is contrary to one's self image, and willingness to apologize and make changes as needed, to improve the parent-child relationship. We all agree that no parent is perfect, just like no child is perfect. There are some exceptions where the parents truly were amazing in their parenting and estrangement still happens. In most cases, a child will not walk away if the parent slips up only on a few occasions, the drastic act of walking away is often due to cumulative, repeated pattern of behaviors by the parents. Some observations, parents often defend by saying they did their best. By their "best" they mean they basically kept the young child alive. They fed, clothed, sheltered and paid household bills. Those are great basic needs and bare minimum for any adult who chooses to create another human. Reasonable people know that it takes much more to do a good job i.e. an emotionally stable, kind, positive and warm parent. Most parents were too preoccupied with their own life to do more than bare minimum. This is the reality. They may have had financial stressors, their own bad upbringing, terrible romantic partners etc to grapple with. All of that would come first before their young children. They don't notice the damage to their child while they themselves are barely staying afloat mentally and emotionally. Some transfer their aggression and sadness to their young child and might even be physically abusive but will justify it since they were "doing their best." When the power dynamics are skewed in the parent's favor, they have forced loyalty from their young child. Their lack of insight makes them assume undying loyalty from the adult child, no matter how poorly or neglectfully they treated the child when all the power was in the parent's hands. Sad cycle indeed because the maturity wasn't there and may never happen. Good luck to all.

[@seahorse251]

@GenChanger well said ❤

[@michaelobrien8661]

It's just so hard when you were a victim of parental alienation by an ex and the kiddos really choose to believe the lies your ex has implanted. I miss em so, but I'll wait for them to try to contact if they want.

[@lori-annstephensenph.d.8655]

I feel like this assumes parental “toxicity” or not enoughness - it completely avoids examining the evolution of systemic social, emotional, and/or cultural trends and assumptions that may promote and justify estrangement- and which can function to normalize, create a baseline and permission structure for scapegoating parents or family members that are no longer “of use” and are therefore determined to be disposable humans. Painful but potent pop psychology. I hope this will invite some spark of curiosity before it’s deleted from the feed - for not rushing to jump on the bandwagon. Human relationships are complex systems - each unique and bound up in a web of narratives - told from any number of perspectives. That said - narrative repair is hard work - and disposable humanity seems to be trending. Respectfully offered

[@thescapegoatclub]

Respect taken- thank you for a thought provoking comment. No deletion on this. Can you expand on what the systems are that are promoting and justifying estrangement? I see that social media allows connection and honest speech about the subject that wasn’t available in the past. Also, we live in a world of greater global mobility, which means we have the option to rely less on our family units. Religion is less popular, and those traditional ideals that can be supportive and can be oppressive. I did a video on generational differences and reasons for estrangement potentially being more prevalent than before. Perhaps that goes into the details you are interested in. And you are correct. The video basically comes from the perspective that when parents aren’t able to support their children, and become difficult, toxic and harmful, then estrangement, if the child can do so, will be the preferred option. As I often say, it’s not a good decision, but it’s the best given the alternative of living a life of misery.

[@joelthomastr]

To say someone should forgive is like saying someone should love. It's an act of free will, it's in the gift of the offended party. Pressuring someone to forgive is as meaningless as forcing someone to say "I love you." If I really want you to love me I'm not going to get very far by building a case for why you should love me. If I only use that strategy it either means I genuinely don't know how to earn your love, or it means I would rather feel righteous when you reject me than sacrifice some of my pride for your love.

[@TheJedynak]

What do you guys think about the mentioned here idea that parents only do their best? I find it artificial, on this ground you could say that everyone always does their best.

[@thescapegoatclub]

This is a really good point and one I grapple with so much... actually to the point it's inspired a video! I'd love to hear your thoughts when it comes out.

[@GenChanger]

By their "best" they mean they basically kept the young child alive. They fed, clothed, sheltered and paid household bills. Those are great basic needs and bare minimum for any adult who chooses to create another human. Reasonable people know that it takes much more to do a good job i.e. an emotionally stable, kind, positive and warm parent. Most parents were too preoccupied with their own life to do more than bare minimum. This is the reality. They may have had financial stressors, their own bad upbringing, terrible romantic partners etc to grapple with. All of that would come first before their young children. They don't notice the damage to their child while they themselves are barely staying afloat mentally and emotionally. Some transfer their aggression and sadness to their young child and might even be physically abusive but will justify it since they were "doing their best." When the power dynamics are skewed in the parent's favor, they have forced loyalty from their young child. Their lack of insight makes them assume undying loyalty from the adult child, no matter how poorly or neglectfully they treated the child when all the power was in the parent's hands. Sad cycle indeed because the maturity wasn't there and may never happen.

[@krismarsh6978]

I am in a group therapy of estranged parents. Only one member, a father, wants his missing offspring back. Our conversations are not about reconciliation but about what to do if we have to see them . And about our own lives.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you so much for commenting. I find this really interesting. I’m curious, then, are the majority of the parents in your group ok with the estrangement? They don’t want to see their kids again?

[@AS-hx8ff]

They can't love. Only love what they think you should do for them. They love saying horrible negative things about you. Its awful. X

[@acinominnovations2807]

As a parent, I set boundaries when my child was an adult in their 30's. No more money infuriated her. She is bipolar. I spent years of counseling with her & alone, because of my daughter's behavior. Mental illness is a real disease. I now don't walk on eggshells since our estrangement. I believe it is best sometimes for the parents as well. I hope she takes her medicine and is happy & at peace now, as I am.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you for sharing your situation. I am so sorry you have had so many challenges with your daughter. I appreciate your honesty around how hard it was and how you have needed to make really difficult decisions around your relationship. I understand that the taboo of cutting off a child can also be really hard, so thank you for commenting and adding to the discussion. I am glad you are doing well, and wish you (and your daughter) all the best for a peaceful future.

[@nicolewheeler8159]

My 19-year-old daughter moved out 10 months ago and we barely talk anymore, she is my only child and we were extremely close throughout the years, she would tell me everything and I was always there for her so I just don’t understand , I am so thankful I found your video because it is so true. I am crying my eyes out as I speak these words thank you for sharing. I know I wasn’t the best mom, but I certainly was not a bad mom and all I wish it’s talk to her on a regular basis again.😔 please help!

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm sorry you are feeling so much pain. Your daughter is still choosing to speak to you. How wonderful! She is 19 and naturally won't want to tell you everything anymore. She is an adult. Give her space to live her life, and find things to fill up your own life. You are not estranged, but pushing for more than she wants to give you could lead to more problems down the road. I truly hope this doesn't happen for you.

[@AnnaMorris411]

If my child goes far right politics and I’m okay with not discussing politics, but they’re not okay with me not supporting MAGA, and they continue to move the goalposts around and sabotage all efforts to communicate, then what else? I’m approaching this from a very humble place. If it’s my fault I sincerely want to repair the damage. I get nowhere and acceptance seems to be the healthiest option for me. My daughter has ghosted me and I have to be able to live with that?

[@thescapegoatclub]

I’m sorry to hear your experience. We are all entitled to our own political opinions, and I also think it’s good not to push those on other people. Avoiding talking politics sounds very sensible. If they continue to push you on this, move goal posts and sabotage things, I wonder why you feel such a strong need to have a close relationship with them? Obviously we love our children, but it’s also important to have our own boundaries and be able to support ourselves independently. I hope you can find your strength in understanding and standing firm in what you need. I wish you all the best in what seems to be such a hard situation. Take care.

[@Sarahwithanh444]

When I finished my tertiary studies (during which I still lived at home), I felt an overwhelming urge to move as far away from my parents as I could. It wasn’t until years later when I started my healing journey and unpacking my past, that I recognised the reason why - I’d spent my upbringing feeling emotionally unsafe and my subconscious was trying to lead me to safety. I needed the physical distance first in order to emotionally heal.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Such a great insight! Your inner wisdom was directing you even if you weren't explicitly aware of it at the time. Glad you're doing better now.

[@TerryMoore420]

I believe I'm estranged from my daughter because she feels guilty. I got very ill in 2017 and became totally incapacitated. I think she was scared she was going to "get stuck" taking care of me. The VA took care of me and saved my life. They also awarded me disability income. My condition was from an injury in the military. So I'm now disabled but I recovered a lot of my ability to function. I believe my daughter now feels deeply ashamed of abandoning me and is too embarrassed to face me. This was the most painful thing I've experienced in my life and I've been through a lot. In my mind, the daughter I loved so deeply is dead. I forgive her because she was probably very afraid and overwhelmed in her own drama with her career and family. But no level of fear she felt can justify the self centered immoral choice she made.

[@marhuny]

Hindsight I can see why she can cut you if you seem to entitled…

[@thescapegoatclub]

Maybe she was scared and made some choices she regrets. It sounds like the severity of your illness would have been scary for everyone, and when we're scared we don't always act our best. Or perhaps she was aware she wouldn't be able to be a full time caregiver- as most of us would struggle to be. I am not sure from your comment whether you are looking to reconcile with her- perhaps not as you see her as immoral and self-centred. Wishing you well.

[@marhuny]

@@thescapegoatclub if one raises a selfish child what does that say ? As a parent they were selfish . If you give unconditional love to your kids they will return that love but parents are no angels ether.

[@TerryMoore420]

@@marhuny wow it must be a struggle to live your life with so little compassion for others.

[@marhuny]

@@TerryMoore420 am compassionate but entitled parents are …. If am mean and you are my mom it says something about me as much but does about her.

[@raquelwilley2821]

It took me a long time to accept that my family and I were never going to fit. Letting go of them was difficult. I felt guilty for a long time, yet I felt compelled to cut them off. It was not my first choice, but it had to be done.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I relate so much! Thank you for commenting. I hope you’re doing well now.

[@staciemcdonald4090]

If my daughter won’t talk to me and the fight was over her lying and sneaking around taking testosterone, I told her to stop, she was harming her body, went until her brain fully developed to make a huge decision in her life. She got angry and the next day she moved in with her friend. She had just turned 18, she had been secretly going out of state with her friends drug addicted mother( which I blame myself for trusting) getting testosterone from a doctor. After she left, I researched the rabbit whole of adult people online tell them what to say to drs. They send them breast bidders. I thought she was a teen and needed her space. She had become rude to all family members, I defended her saying she’s just going through teen mood swings. She hit me in the arm hard. She purposely would push my buttons until I’d snap and holler at her, later when I’d calm down, I’d apologize, I didn’t realize she did it on purpose to say see you don’t love me. It’s been 2 yrs, she won’t talk to anyone but her dad in a vague way. I’m the one that made sure he called her to make sure she’s ok. She doesn’t know that though. My family are hurt, my mom doesn’t have many yrs left and she’s hurt, which makes me feel awful because it’s my fault she turned out the way she did, I should’ve been harder on her, instead of letting her get away with stuff. I should’ve made her spend time with me every time I asked she said no. I could’ve been the influence in her life instead of pedophiles online. I blame myself. At first I sent her information of the dangers of what she was doing to her body. Later from videos like these I found out it was the worst thing to do. I’ve begged her to talk to me, what did I do wrong. Again worst thing to do. Now, I’m stuck. I love her so much it hurts. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. I fear I’ll never see her again. I’m crying now, how do you stop the pain? How do you stop just being in a store and seeing candy she use to like and the pain starts flooding in? I’d love a relationship with her. I know from these videos it’s probably not going to happen. I’d love to just talk to her again. My husband puts it on speaker so I can hear her voice( which has changed) but at least I get to hear it. I wish I knew what to do to get her back in my life? Just because I don’t accept what’s she’s doing to her body, doesn’t mean I don’t love and miss her. The family hasn’t done anything to her. My son says he has done anything and he accepts her the way she is, he doesn’t know why she’s cut him out of his life. He doesn’t say it, but you can tell it hurts him too.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Hi, I'm sorry things are so difficult for you with your daughter. The fact is that she has decided to do what feels right for her, for her body and her future. These are her decisions and not ones that are taken lightly. They are not our decisions to make or to judge. Changing gender can be incredibly difficult and isolating, and by not accepting who she is, she could feel that you are rejecting her. I wonder if you can think about accepting her choice a little more. Accepting doesn't mean you agree, but that you respect her decision to make her own choices in life. When we can do that, we give space for a loving supportive relationship. Wishing you well.

[@Kay-hg2vo]

Forgive yes. Trust No, your still not safe! Trust is earned.

[@kayemiller3093]

I'm a mother figure to a young woman who has chosen estrangement from her mother. I've had a secret hope that she would soften and rekindle that relationship but she'sstanding firm in not restoring things. Thank you for this video because it's helped me understand her decision and trust that she knows what is right for her.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Thank you for your comment, and for taking the time to understand your friend. I am sure she will appreciate your support. I also think that knowing you support her either way may make it easier for her share her thoughts and, if she has or does soften, it will be easier for her to talk things through with you. Sending you both good thoughts.

[@Kelly-oe8kr]

Why I will never forgive my mother, the ultimate betrayal, my mother sided her pedophile husband (not the father of any of her children), denied and covered up that he repeatedly sexually abused her children

[@thescapegoatclub]

I’m so sorry. I hope you are safe and doing ok. Take care.

[@MusiCatsKing]

I find people's ignorant reactions so harmful. "Oh noo, that's so sad. Go make amends with them; before it's too late." "I expect a man to love his mum because family's really important to me." "That's a red flag - there must be something wrong with you." It makes dating pretty much impossible.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I resonate with all these. I'm sorry it's affecting you dating... then again, maybe it's a quick way of weeding out people who would make a lousy partner? Not being flippant.... people who can only spout cliched answers, or not take time to consider the reasons why aren't the people we need close to us. Still, it's hard to have to decide whether to defend ourselves or just let them be ignorant.

[@MusiCatsKing]

@@thescapegoatclub Usually, they don't give me a chance to explain before they've already dismissed me. And on the rare occasion she would hear me out, the response would be "you need professional help." You know what's important to me.. *Integrity* You know what would help.. *sexual healing* Thanks for understanding.

[@traceygray4007]

How about when the parent has these reasons. Everyone talk about why the child. It doesn’t matter to me anymore they are toxic.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Of course, if a parent has these reasons, they also apply. The same principle exists- when we have a toxic dynamic with another person sometimes the only course of action is to cut off contact. No argument here.

[@d.robertdigman1293]

In relation to those who say "you should forgive" I have another take on why that is not an appropraite thing to say (apart from it being inappropriate to try to moralise at someone who has been through hell). In my experience, forgiveness is a drug. It can be misused, as in when people take heroin for addictive reasons. A lot of people on the receiving end of abuse make a bad habit of inappropriately forgiving the perpetrator -- who then goes ahead and reoffends. This leads to a vicious cycle. How often do we hear of a woman, say, who has been beaten by her husband, but then she forgives him and then ends up beaten again -- usually worse than last time? We are taught that "forgiveness is divine" and other gaslighting garbage, but what use is forgiveness for a person who is not sorry and who is unwilling to make any kind of sacrifice in the form of contrition, apology and the addressing of damage done? Yet forgiveness the drug can be a drug of healing -- like a medication prescribed to heal. This latter type of forgiveness is desirable, but does require the offending party be genuinely contrite. It also requires that the forgiving party be in the right place at that time, and not to have beaten their heads against brick wall trying to get honest respectful responses from their abusers. This is the point -- the fact that someone is an abuser means they all-too-often lack the necessary capacity to recognise they are in the wrong and need to fix this (or at least the parts that can be fixed -- not everything is). This is why third parties need to respect boundaries and not make any judgments, nor to moralise. It is not their place to do so, especially given that they are not aware and cannot possibly be aware of all of the relevant issues.

[@thescapegoatclub]

Great comment! Thank you for sharing your perspective. You make so many valid points. And great timing- I'm just finalising (in my opinion!) a fascinating video on the science behind forgiveness. There is so much nuance and as you point out, it is really dependent on the situation. But overall, yes, you're right. It's nobody's place to throw out the forgiveness judgement on to others.

[@HolidayPrez]

My mum loves me, I just feel like a failure so I don’t want anything to do with her. Even in the afterlife.

[@thescapegoatclub]

That's a very hard dynamic. When we can see the love but still feel so awful in ourselves. Sending support your way. Take care

[@shriveax]

Was thinking about estranging but i think my ndad is experiencing cognitive decline so im torn now

[@thescapegoatclub]

that's a tough situation. Your number one priority is to be safe though- whatever is happening to others, our safety is paramount.

[@adonaiel-rohi2460]

All facts

[@beachybird1251]

I don't get it. Whose side are you on? Certainly not on the side of the easily scapegoated parent. I should have known coming into the world that I would not make a good enough Mom. I was born an introvert and inherited familial depression as a child. Surely, my adult children could do better than that on the open market. Why should they approve of me the same way I approved of them? Neither of my adult children have the decency to discuss anything. Their message is simply "You are not good enough". I was replaced at their weddings. Neither invited me. I had been injured in a M V A. A lack of empathy and entitlement are the issues. How about an equal time video on that? Parents that get used and abused and kicked to the curb expecting to be treated with decency. Why does our society care so little about parents? Parents are key to the survival of us as a society. Parents are viewed as disposable. That's just wrong, unless the parent is a murderer. Kids don't naturally alienate even if the parent is a murderer. The Parent-Child bond is social. It's primal. Once it becmes about "marketing", there is no relationship. A child's thinking becomes toxic and distorted as is true with all marketing ploys. Reality plays no role.

[@thescapegoatclub]

I'm on the side of healthy, supportive, kind, compassionate relationships.

[@BAsed_AFro]

Adult "children" almost never estrange from parents for no apparent reason. Let's get over the "I can't be wrong!" insanity already, because that's your #1 problem and you don't even realize it.