5e Combat Survey Results - Lazy RPG Talk Show

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Great to have a fresh, young poll instead of that stinky old one!! And ultimately agree that the name abstract map is most recognizable, so that's what I'd call it when talking about them online

[@SlyFlourish]

Happy to update the poll!

[@scrollforinitiative]

Cheers for the mention, Mike! (And fair point about the clickbait. We all do it… )

[@SlyFlourish]

I know =)

[@tattoostuff810]

Hey Mike, did you know that you can use a Sharpie marker so it doesn't wipe off your flip maps during play and still erase it easily? All you have to do is use the Dry erase marker when you're cleaning up, use it to draw over the Sharpie lines, and wipe it away. The Dry erase marker breaks the Sharpie down and wipes away clean. Also, it's very simple to turn off grids in Fantasy Grounds and Roll 20.

[@alanleckert1]

47:17 while a bit hard for the DM in moments, the first level adventure from Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel is a good example of an adventure designed for level 1. There are plenty of examples of roleplay, investigation, faction/reputation building, battle, saving throws, room searching, and potential failure that doesn’t stop everything immediately

[@davidsantos1299]

I feel like a lot of players love the idea of playing high level characters, but most DMs can't deal with high level characters. If only there were more adventures that help DMs

[@elderbraincom]

Thank you for the shoutout/review! Happy to hear you like the book. To answer your question: The point is not to keep the players on the boat but to have them travel the region. It could be windwalk, a ship, or swimming, it doesn't matter unless they go exploring. ;) Also, if you check out our actual play videos, the party the players made has a paladin, a ranger, a fighter, and a young bronze dragon (could carry one medium creature). Not all parties go max caster level. 😎

[@ivancarabano]

I love all Sly Flourish videos 😊

[@83ericp]

Respectfully disagree on taking away player gear for a scenario. I recently ran a session where my party attended a noble's birthday party. Naturally the guards weren't going to let weapons in. Their NPC friend told them this in advance and I gave them the option to make a sleight of hand check to hide a small item on their person. The group also thought of the idea to have the wizard use invisibility to plant a bag of holding with gear inside the manor somewhere. But the important caveat is this was intended to be a social/exploration encounter. They would only run into combat if they gave the guards a reason to use force. It was a great encounter for a normally combat focused group.

[@andybaxter4442]

I love grid games, generally, but my problem with 5e on a 5ft grid is that everyone moves 6 spaces by default and ranged weapons can go over 20 spaces. That's just a weirdly big map for me to deal with, personally, and I find it hard to arrange the environment an enemies in a way that makes the map meaningful. Most grid-based tactical strategy games don't use this big a scale. games Obviously people do it and like it, but it doesn't work for me as a dm in 5e.

[@LuizCesarFariaLC]

Just hyping for the Kickstarter!

[@phil6186]

54:32 let the players buy it for the group. Gm's already have so many potential costs. This way player can contribute too...

[@dantherpghero2885]

I made a sketch for an encounter with some slaads. I gave the sketch to the group to pass around while I drew it out in dry erase on the battle mat. One of the noobs says "You spelled salad wrong." Me and the veterans laughed. After that the jokes wrote themselves. Green Salad. Death Salad. The shambling mound became the undead salad.

[@jojord]

I think ultimately not, I think its like soccer. Sure I watch professional soccer matches in a stadium. And it might very well be the reason I got into playing soccer myself. But I have 0 hopes that ill ever play professional, though that will never ruin the fun I have in my matches.

[@yingosensei]

Grid all day everyday!

[@braces11111]

I just want a downloadable pdf that won't change and doesn't need an app to view

[@captainhawdon937]

Owlbear has a nice "abstract map" tool. You can write and draw on it. I've been loving it. You can change from squares to hex's too. Owlbear has free tools for dropping down area effect spells quickly.

[@aurvay]

Did you just nerdsplain Owlbear to Mike? lmao

[@captainhawdon937]

@@aurvay haha strange especially since Mike's videos got me into Owlbear.

[@scrollforinitiative]

Love the stuff on abstract maps, btw! I love theatre of the mind, but it's often difficult to visualize, and it's easy to get confused about what's happening. Abstract maps are a nice middle-ground. Maybe there's a hierarchy here? Easy, inconsequential, very simple battles: theatre of the mind Tactically complex or highly consequential battles (eg, boss fights): grid Everything in between: abstract maps?

[@JHTheHurricane]

I will say as somone that GM's all their 5e games on grids that there are two reasons I think grids are just the better choice for the majority of players and tablets. No that that it HAS to be this way, but just seems to be the case in all the games I've run and been a player in. 1.) TotM combat REQUIRES a good DM in my opinion. One that has experience settings scenes not only evocatively, but also succinctly. If before each turn the GM has to spend a minute or two re-explaining the layout and enemy position to each player, it really bogs things down. Much more so than even the most poorly put together gridded maps. The barrier to entry for a new GM to do this well leans the hobby as a whole more towards grids. 2.) The player's handbook, and all the supplemental books (sans the DMG) offer NO advice on how to do this well. All descriptions are in increments of 5ft, mechanics are built around these very rigid ranges, and rarely are abilities built around what could be a more fluid chase scene, or combat that is taking place on a moving object or any of the cool things theater of the mind combat can simulate.

[@SlyFlourish]

You're totally right about point 2 and I think thats a problem.

[@stewi009]

When I'm doing rumours, or secrets & clues, I like to mix in a few half-truths. However I rarely ever put in complete falsehoods. Players need to trust that there's SOMETHING worth chasing when they hear these things, otherwise they just won't do it. Maybe they don't know the whole story up front, but they know it sounds interesting enough to make the effort.

[@jpri26]

I’m running an Mcdm class this camapaign and I’m forced to use the roll 20 character sheet. It fine. (Its fine! I repeatedly try to convince myself)

[@jonoy1689]

I will say I think it’s fine when players have agency over losing access to abilities or equipment. Going to a fancy ball undercover meaning they can only take one small weapon tucked up their sleeve. They can choose to infiltrate it in other ways if they want or they can go in through the front door with the restrictions makes for some tense and high stakes. I think if they know the threat it’s fine too, this evil dude has been experimenting on removing magical abilities his place may be trapped with animatic fields

[@ekurisona663]

abstract and theater of the mind allows for so much freedom, speed, and creativity

[@GateKeeperPat]

Not exactly the same, but this weeks video reminded me of Runehammer’s GM advice in Crown & Skull “Mapping the Mapless”

[@captainhawdon937]

I'm second after Bobworldbuilder woo hoo

[@JanHoos]

About the big shift to gridded maps, my assumption explains it by having a new type of player. One who likes playing, but doesn’t want to dive in as deep. If I look at my own two groups, I can’t imagine running abstract maps, since my players won’t be able to wrap their heads around it. They’re still occasionally asking if they need to roll a d20 when I ask for a save for instance :) After playing for three years ;) With the popularity and visibility of dnd these last years, those types of players know about dnd and want to play as well. And they might be the bigger group?

[@JunMiyazaki]

I'm planning to buy the MCDM bundle on DDB. I'm actively using DDB's encounter builder tool, the maps feature is really good. Paying 60 bucks simply use / modify the Flee, Mortals monsters is more efficient for me. In the last few month I had to manually copy the statblocks into the homebrew section, which is time consuming for me. DDB's encounter builder is far from perfect but it is a big help for me to run my battles.

[@elizabethviolet8448]

I like running stealth in more of an improvised freeform manner where i just let people roll to sneak around mostly wherever because the chance associated with the roll keeps it from getting out of hand and keeps them from doing overwhelmingly stupid stealth attempts that would get them killed if they failed unless they're truly desperate. I also do group checks for stealth in 5e since otherwise someone would always fail every stealth check and nobody would ever sneak together. Pass Without Trace is a huge problem spell because when someone uses it, i have to start being strict about stealth rules and interpret ambiguities in them in an extremely strict way like the article recommends, and if i don't do that, then the players will wreak havoc with a second level spell, but also normal uses of stealth are suddenly less feasible too. It screws up stealth either way no matter what I do when it's introduced.

[@LeeJCander]

I really enjoy maps but in my opinion the more you worry about the detail and the less you rely on the abstract it does start to take away from the imaginative side of D&D which is my favourite part. So I try to use maps for combat and reference images for most other things. I also don’t use maps for all combat only if I want it to be somewhat tactical. With regards to adding upward beats to dungeons, add something like a letter to an explorer that died that’s a letter from a lover. The letter can grant inspiration to whomever finds it or something. Personal effects can flesh out the world as well as give advantages

[@HermanDuyker]

I remember getting stuck in a Rope Trick extradimensional space in my AD&D days (not sure if it was 1e or 2e...), where a trap wall moved "underneath" our exit hole 😆 (I think we managed to survive, it's been a looooong while 😋)

[@Zr0din]

EVERYONE is doing updates. So what has been the global change to RPG's. We can't really answer that until more stuff comes out.

[@ttprophet]

Mike, have ever considered or theorized a "gold buys XP" economy? Or maybe a "choose gold or XP" payout system? Buy level ups, buy magic items, or a mix of both. This could simulate some interesting choices in long term sandbox campaigns. Some players may rely on strong items, and other higher levels of play. It makes me wonder what kind of world would have such a high risk high reward economy with a high magic item inventory. Or how learning new things are so well gatekept by professional teachers. Would the training be from educated noble houses? Would it be gifted from the gods? What prevents the common man from sharing info with each other, and why would an abundance of gold be reserved for adventuring? I often find myself thinking about the perfect decades-long sandbox campaign, tho i know it rarely works out IRL. Some systems of play are best for video games... or youtube theory crafting content, ya know? lol. I would love to watch you take on the challenge of balancing an economy/levelup system in a way that is fun but fair for long play.

[@the-cosmic-turtle]

For me and my group we found gridless, but NOT abstract to be the best mix of both worlds. (so kind of like Warhammer or a skirmish game or whatever.) When I was playing in person I'd just through some cheep foam terrain I made to purposefully look generic/adaptable so that it could be used in any environment on the table and we'd have a map with elevation and obstacles very quickly, I could be very flexible with it. Each player had their own ruler drawn on with permanent marker to mark out 30 feet to save time measuring. (rulers are 50 cents at target.)

[@matthewgoettel2798]

I'd like to shout out the KZbin Creator Kristian at Crooked Staff Terrain. He has an extensive suite of awesome looking dungeon tile textures, that you simply print and paste to card stock or single corrugated cardboard...most of his work is Pay What You Want on the DM's Guild. Can't recommend it enough for people who want some extant terrain pieces but can't bring themselves to shill out the $$ ( me ).

[@ttprophet]

i run 5' grids (and sometimes 10' grids) for a few reasons. here are my pros and cons: Pros: 1. players ask less questions when they can see their space. (i think it's a video game thing that has ruined our attention spans to remember a narrative description). 2. AoE spells deserve to be cast at larger groups of enemies, so i run a LOT of low CR tokens in one combat instead of a hulking HP sponge for that reason. Knowing their position on seems fair. 3. A DM can place traps, rough terrain, macguffin puzzles, and lair actions. But to keep track of all this in play, you need to visualize it. Cons: 1. presenting players a grid makes them feel like they have to fight to the death. This can also give an illusion of narrative plot armor. sometimes the effort of drawing something nice makes the player feel pressured to appreciate it as a battlefield. DMs can also force situations into combat that otherwise a player may be able to avoid or negotiate. ToM often allows players the creativity to outwit situation without confronting it. 2. You can run much larger cinema. 3. Grids are pointless for trains, wagon chases, minecart rollercoasters, horse races, air combat etc.

[@hideshiseyes2804]

Good video, interesting stuff. I still think 5E is meant to be played on a grid though. Sure AoEs don’t fit neatly on a grid, but the books have diagrams of how you’re supposed to force them to fit. Ignoring those diagrams, the most obvious interpretation would be that you’re expected to play on an ungridded surface and use a tape measure or lengths of string. It’s very clearly not meant to be played with qualitative distances or “zones” because there’s no mention of those anywhere in the rules. BTW I’m very much in favour of using TotM combat or *more* abstract maps when it’s appropriate, which it often is. I just don’t think it’s right to say the rules aren’t meant for gridded combat.

[@alanleckert1]

47:17 while a bit hard for the DM in moments, the first level adventure from Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel is a good example of an adventure designed for level 1. There are plenty of examples of roleplay, investigation, faction/reputation building, battle, saving throws, room searching, and potential failure that doesn’t stop everything immediately

[@ProfEngelhardtPlays]

When I first started playing RPGs in college about 20 years ago, it was all theater of the mind and abstract maps (I think my WotC Star Wars GM - my first GM - literally used paper with Xs and Os). But, we were poor college kids. So, we had lots of paper and pencils and not much else! It wasn't until much later - 5e, I think - that I was introduced to grids, thanks to Roll20. It took a little getting used to, since it does feel a bit like you're stepping away from roleplaying to play a board game. At the same time, I use grids with my kids, based on their preferences. I think they find it much easier to have the certainty of "I can move 6 squares and then attack/cast a spell/etc." vs. the inherently fuzzy approach of abstract maps or theater of the mind. But, I think you're right that it does change the DM's mind to being more battle-focused. (And I don't even invest much into making battles - I use a printer, glue stick, and cereal box to make tokens, and a dry erase mat for most of my "terrain", so I can improvise it. Can't even imagine how much I'd push toward battles if I actually purchased/built more elaborate terrain with specific scenes in mind...)

[@johnmagowan6393]

I had sadly been thinking that I had learned everything I could from my pal Mike? But BAM where to find tiny pencils!

[@dhavaram8064]

I'm wondering if in the high level adventure, Torrents of the Spellhoarder maybe there's a lot of underwater encounters which makes teleporting and flying less relevant

[@ryanduddleson1806]

I think another way to balance things like Pass Without Trace is to consider side effects. One example from other fiction is the use of “veils” in The Dresden Files - these work similarly to obscure the caster but because a veil makes it harder to be seen it also impedes your ability to see out - light still behaves like light.

[@howirunit2033]

I think you are off whenever you say things are “just no fun.” Limiting or taking away some abilities for an entire adventure is a bad idea. Doing it for a particular scenario or environment can be a lot of fun as it encourages tactical thinking and potential drama. You just can’t do it too often nor do it the same way twice in a given campaign but yes, it can be fun and Players who can’t lean into the novelty of it are a bummer.

[@michaeljpastor]

dog track pencil? well we know what you've been doing with your patreon pledges now don't we? ;-)

[@OthEdden]

I remember playing a board game where they used different colored string to represent the volume something covered. In shadow dark you could do it with two colors of string where everything within the inner string is Near and everything outside the outer string is far, and everything between the two is close. The bigger the creature, the larger their string.

[@PhilipDudley3]

at 41:20 ish, Reaction Rolls to how the denizens respond to the PCs. Not everything needs to be a combat slog.

[@lowRolls]

As always, great show! Thank you.

[@chrisherzog7013]

How's does one find the En World podcast? I searched by that name to no avail.

[@batchthirteen4324]

I heard the phrase “abstract map” so many times that I forgot what it means.

[@jpri26]

You can turn the grid off on roll 20 and just use the ruler

[@MrJerks93]

I had a chalkboard in my basement growing up. That's all we ever used throughout high school. Quick X's and O's scribble some terrain. Movement using rays/arrows.

[@TwinSteel]

I have a standard statement “it’s not to scale” to the point that my players now say “nothing is to scale”

[@TwinSteel]

Close - Near - Far - Too Far

[@lonic123]

Thanks

[@PangoriaFallstar]

I 100% agree on the abstract map and easy fights. I literally had to break my player's habits for easy fights because gridding an easy fight made me want to pull out my hair. I had to chastise them.

[@1979fsa]

Hi. I dont have Torrents od the spellhoarder but im watching their gamestream. And i dont think it being a high level + sea adventure is a problem per se. The gamestream is a bit low but has very good roleplay moments 😊

[@Shattered_Entertainment]

As far as keeping them on a boat that's a session zero topic

[@pacodance29]

Your advice on "give players all their abilities" I find to be ridiculous. Why would a barbarian be allowed to bring a sword to the ball? In what possible world would they allow spell components in the Most Devout's Church? There are plenty of real-world examples of people having agency reduced that makes pc's get creative about finding solutions.

[@pacodance29]

in fact, this is a perfect opportunity to allow a character who has an ability that is underused or little known to shine... no weapons allowed? good thing the rogue can sneak his dagger in.... can't talk to the king directly? good thing the wizard has clairvoyance...

[@JKevinCarrier]

Can you come up with logical reasons to take away the characters' stuff? Sure. Will the players have fun? Nope. They will be low-key (or not so low-key) annoyed at you the whole time for arbitrarily hamstringing them. And if you do it repeatedly, they'll start looking for another table to play at.

[@fortunatus1]

For a whole adventure... sure, that's not fun. But for an encounter, it can be unreasonable to allow players to have all their abilities. The king is never going to meet a band of adventurers that can throw fireballs and kill him outright. They are going to have security requirements. And yes, I have played with players that tried to do ridiculous stuff like assassinating the king for no good reason.

[@pacodance29]

@@JKevinCarrier who said anything about taking away stuff? I'm just saying not allowing every single ability in every single case makes any logical sense. If players are so precious they can't take the slightest setback, I don't want them at my table.

[@deejaytee]

What use is an hour-long spell in overland travel?

[@matthewwhelehan5185]

It gives a big hour-long (half mile?) window where they can't be tracked. Anything tracking them would lose the trail and the PCs are safe.

[@deejaytee]

@@matthewwhelehan5185 Sure, but the party being tracked isn't something that happens much compared to just trying to avoid random encounters (which is what I assume Sly is talking about).

[@matthewwhelehan5185]

@@deejaytee admittedly I'm more familiar with older versions of the spell where it was used almost exclusively for overland travel. But if they're looking to avoid random encounters, then the hour-long duration should still grant a bonus for them... Perhaps the DM rolls for encounters with lower odds, or with disadvantage.

[@deejaytee]

@@matthewwhelehan5185 Yeah, it's very clearly meant for encounters/dungeons now. Perhaps there should be another spell (or class ability, or feat) that could be created for overland travel?

[@alanleckert1]

I have loved how you’ve softened and lowered your voice at the beginning of the episode. Can I suggest that you add a pause after “today on the lazy dungeon master podcast”? It feels rushed when you go immediately into it and doesn’t align with the tone in your voice