6 Works Whose Success Really Irritated Their Composers

6 Works Whose Success Really Irritated Their Composers
Sibelius: Valse triste
Beethoven: Septet
Mahler: Symphony No. 3 (Second Movement)
Enescu: Romanian Rhapsody No. 1
Ravel: Pavane for a Dead Princess (Pavane pour une infante défunte)
Holst: The Planets

[@johnwaring6443]

Glad that your voice is back, Dave! This excellent video reminds me that Rachmaninoff was annoyed because the popularity of his Prelude in C Sharp Minor made it an expected encore at every concert.

[@user-et8mh2ki1c]

Thank God for Dave Hurwitz and Theraflu! Even illness can't keep away your sense of humor. Thanks as always.

[@stevekole9796]

I would be grateful if you did a review of the Havergal Brian symphonies. Thanks!

[@rogerevans9666]

Switching from music to art, if Leonardo came back to life, he might be annoyed or amused at how famous the Mona Lisa has become. Its global celebrity all started in 1911 when it was stolen from the Louvre, and the newspapers made a contest out of where it was and who stole it. There is a painting by Samuel Morse of a large room in the Louvre called "Gallery of the Louvre" showing the people and paintings in it. It takes a while to notice where the Mona Lisa is. Not a single person in the painting by Morse is looking at it. When it was stolen in 1911, the people working at the Louvre did not notice it was missing until almost a day later when an artist copying paintings in the museum asked an employee about where it was. The painting by Morse called "Gallery of the Louvre" can be seen on Google Image. The other paintings at the Louvre by Leonardo get nowhere near as much attention. I always enjoy your lectures.

[@user-qp1yn2vj7u]

Great info thanks

[@stewartthechristmasleech6092]

Glad your voice is back!

[@marlute]

Rachmaninoff and his prelude in C sharp minor. He grew to dislike its popularity.

[@jimslancio]

I would've put this first on the list.

[@robertjones447]

​@@jimslancioThat goes without saying.

[@nickboldewskul2136]

Paderewski and his Minuet in G. I still occasionally listen to his piano concerto, Manru opera, and Polonia symphony, but I classify him as barely a composer because of his small output.

[@dennischiapello3879]

Especially since he was virtually forced to play it at every concert for the rest of his life.

[@jgesselberty]

Interesting. I might have thought Bolero.

[@The_Jupiter2_Mission]

Holst could of always done The Galaxies as a follow up to The Planets to cash in. Be damn with artistic integrity when there is a dollar to be made.

[@michaelcarroll7621]

He wasn't Richard Strauss.

[@ericleiter6179]

Fun video...thanks for the mini French lesson too! I always wondered, cause between you and various classical radio announcers, does the pronunciation of Chausson, also sounds like Saint Saens!!!

[@DerrickMims]

They sound the same if you pronounce them wrong! 😉

[@michaelpetkovich5058]

I think that John Foulds' Keltic Lament could be added to your list. As I remember, he bitterly complained that the Lament's popularity (and that of his other light works) prevented his serious music from being performed. BTW, great to hear you are getting better!

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

Sousa: Washington Post March. He sold it to a publisher for $35 and the publisher proceeded to make numerous arrangements for various instrument combinations. It was a huge hit and made the publisher a bundle, but Sousa got all of $35. This led to the creation of ASCAP and copyright laws.

[@stevenklimecky4918]

I love your assessment of the French language here.

[@Bobbnoxious]

Holst was an introverted guy who wasn't comfortable with the celebrity "The Planets" brought him. When asked for his autograph he would hand the person a typed slip of paper stating that he did not sign autographs.

[@robertjones447]

I'll bet that slip of paper is worth just as much as an autograph would have been worth!

[@loganfruchtman953]

He’s a one hit wonder

[@MrAbsentmindedprof]

@@loganfruchtman953 Not the case. His work for wind band is incredible, and he is effectively solely responsible for the development of that genre -- let alone his sacred music.

[@ME-qr7hs]

David, Didn’t Ravel have the same reaction to the popularity of “Bolero” ? “The Planets” - As I recall, it is one of the few pieces that has a Bass Oboe part .

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Salome too.

[@MrEdmundHarris]

Didn't he call it something like 'a piece for orchestra without music'?

[@barrymoore4470]

@@MrEdmundHarris Yes, he was quoted as describing it as "orchestral tissue without music".

[@hendriphile]

When told that the middle movements of his Op. 130 quartet were hits which the audience demanded to be played again, LVB (who sat out the premier at the local pub) responded, “"And why didn't they encore the Fugue? That alone should have been repeated! Cattle! Asses!" - - and yes, TheraFlu! And homemade chicken soup, you know the kind, which is getting increasingly difficult to find.

[@pascalrousseau1]

Here I bounce back to the solo piano music of Ravel. This is something a classical music novice should know and will love. I know you did a Dave's fave of Ravel's piano music with Abbey Simon. I think, however, that this music deserves wider recording coverage. I'm a fan of your videos and I'm really curious about your choices. I grew up in France (I lived in Montreal for 20 years already) with Vlado Perlemuter's Ravel. Now, I tend to find it a little cheezy but still worthwhile and I just feel privileged to have been in contact with this music at a very young age no matter the pianist. I'm really interested in hearing about your choices about this essential of the piano repertoire. Thank you for your generosity. It's just a suggestion. You have your own agenda. And that suits me like that. Happy Holidays! Looking forward to your Kola awards for 2023.

[@robertforrestmontreal7707]

The Planets is a score recommended to composers as an example of orchestration so I bought it , lots of instruments doing various effects what's not to like

[@ProudBerliozian]

Similar to the Sibelius story, Bruch hated his first violin concerto. It was so popular from the get go, and he kept trying to promote his other violin concertos, symphonies, choral works (those were also popular in his lifetime,) etc, to limited success. But he'd sold his violin concerto, with all the rights, early in his career, and he never could cash in.

[@nealkurz6503]

There are some funny quotes of Bruch in the preface to the Henle edition of the work: “As early as 1887 Bruch, in a letter to his publisher Fritz Simrock, complained that soloists were only interested in this one work: "Every two weeks somebody comes along and wants to run through my - first concerto. I've even become surly and told them 'I can't listen to this concerto any more. Do you suppose I've only written one concerto? Go off and play one of my other concertos for a change: they're just as good, perhaps even better!'" A letter sent to his familv from Naples on 24 November 1903 reveals Bruch virtually at the end of his patience: "They already staud at the corner of the Via Toledo, at Castellammare, at the Posilippo, ready to pop up the moment I appear and run through my first concerto. (Devil take the whole lot of them! As if I haven't written other concertos just as good!)"

[@oakwoodian4465]

Although the Scottish Fantasia has merit and is attractive I have never been able to warm to the second violin concerto even though it was recorded by both Heifetz and Elman. They obviously saw something in it that has passed me by.

[@NecronomThe4th]

Upon starting the video I was like yes! I know one ! Gurre lieder! And nope! But I’m glad it wasn’t on the list I got to know more about stuff. Great video.

[@mgconlan]

I was surprised you didn't include on your list Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture" or Schönberg's "Gurrelieder." In the case of "Gurrelieder" Schönberg composed it between 1911 and 1913 but didn't get it premiered until 1916, and after the premiere was successful he bitterly commented in letters to his friends that "Gurrelieder" sounded so different from what he was writing in 1916, or what he wanted to write afterwards, audiences would have an entirely wrong idea about him.

[@MrEdmundHarris]

I read he took the applause at the premiere with his back to the audience.

[@songsmith31a]

Agree about the "1812" Overture. Almost too well known in that regard, perhaps?

[@markokassenaar4387]

I would add Bernstein’s frustration on West Side Story eclipsing everything else he wrote.

[@MD-md4th]

Everything Bernstein wrote is trashy, including WSS. At least it has some catchy tunes.

[@markokassenaar4387]

What a load of crap. Surely, you can come up with something more intelligent than that.

[@MD-md4th]

@@markokassenaar4387 Bwa ha ha! It’s a notch above standard Broadway fare, though not by much. Bernstein and his music embody the vapid optimism, self-centeredness, and hypocrisy of the American Century. As the boomers continue to fade, Bernstein will continue to fade.

[@brianthomas2434]

That endless flow of royalty checks must have been MADDENING.

[@markokassenaar4387]

Yeah, be ironic as much as you want, but money was not the issue. He made enough of that as a conductor, anyhow. Fact is that he desperately tried to write serious music that was important and influential: “Mass” for peace, “1600 Pennsylvania Avenue” about politics, “A Quiet Place” on human relationships. But few people care. They want to hear ‘Maria’ and ‘I Feel Pretty’ again.

[@horrortackleharry]

I guess every composer has their own 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'.

[@gerbs139]

Was going to say 'Creep' (Radiohead), but same idea.

[@Bobbnoxious]

Or REM's "Shiny Happy People".

[@horrortackleharry]

@@gerbs139 There was a good video made a few years ago about the Jani Lane 'Cherry Pie' syndrome.

[@clemmteetonball11]

Or Van Morrison's 'Brown Eyed Girl'.

[@muslit]

Lutoslawski told me he was unhappy that is most popular orchestral piece was his Concerto for Orchestra, which he felt wasn't up to the music he wrote afterwards.

[@thomassmith3841]

Xaver Scharwenka resented the popularity of his "Polish Dance" (op. 3, no. 1), and Rachmaninoff felt the same way about his "Prelude in c minor" (op. 3, no. 2).

[@compositortiagoprado]

Wagner and "Rienzi", for reasons very similar to those of Beethoven and Mahler.

[@MDK2_Radio]

When I saw the video title, I predicted incorrectly that it would be one of the six works. At least I was on the money with Beethoven’s Septet.

[@goonbelly5841]

Ernst Krenek, Charles Wuorinen and Karlheinz Stockhausen never had that problem.

[@harvestedvoltage4324]

I suppose. Wuorinen is good though.

[@goonbelly5841]

@@harvestedvoltage4324 I like Wuorinen too but I doubt whether he ever had reason to whine about one of his compositions being too popular.

[@harvestedvoltage4324]

@@goonbelly5841 for sure. He did win the Pulitzer Prize for Music though

[@bloodgrss]

Certainly, Elgar knows Sibelius's irritation, because of his own signing the rights away for his Salut d' Amour-with similar results. All struggling young great composers need an agent, tho' they will drain the coffers too...

[@fulltongrace7899]

I love that piece

[@bbailey7818]

Poor Leoncavallo sold Pagliacci outright to Sonzogno. Had he received royalties he would have lived in clover the rest of his life.

[@barrymoore4470]

Beethoven also in time came to be rather dismissive of his 'Moonlight' sonata, still one of the world's most haunting and beautiful compositions, saying that surely he had written better pieces.

[@loganfruchtman953]

At least he liked his seventh symphony which was very popular during his lifetime not the same for the other piece that premiered alongside it; Wellingtons Victory

[@barrymoore4470]

@@loganfruchtman953'Wellington's Victory' was a hit in Beethoven's lifetime, probably one of his most famous works in the years after it premiered. Beethoven seems never to have dismissed it, and relished the money and added celebrity it brought him. It is posterity that has tended to denigrate it in aesthetic terms. I remember reading that Beethoven preferred his Eighth Symphony over his Seventh, though he surely recognized the latter as one of his masterpieces.

[@loganfruchtman953]

@@barrymoore4470 I know; Beethoven once said “What I s*** on is better than anything you can come up with.”

[@barrymoore4470]

@@loganfruchtman953 No one could ever have accused Beethoven of low self-esteem. He advertised the revised version of his opera 'Fidelio' as "immortal" before it had even opened.

[@barrymoore4470]

Incidentally, 'Valse triste' was used to wonderful effect in the 1976 feature 'Allegro non troppo', a charming parody of Disney's 'Fantasia' directed by Bruno Bozzetto. The segment is truly poignant though undercut immediately afterward for laughs--a strange, ambiguous effect which is encountered elsewhere in this memorable film.

[@brianthomas2434]

It's been years... Was that the sequence with the cat? I was in tears when it ended, but when they cut to the old ladies crying, I felt foolish for being manipulated! 12:16

[@barrymoore4470]

@@brianthomas2434Yes, this was the sequence with the cat lingering at the ruined home, remembering its family and the happy times there. The segment with Debussy's 'L'Après-midi d'un faune' also concluded on a poignant note, and the sequence using Ravel's 'Boléro', quite droll up to that point, ends with a disquieting, genuinely disturbing flavor.

[@Boccaccio1811]

Another one apparently is Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2... I heard he would perform pieces for his students but refused to perform that one because it was too popular and he was sick of playing it

[@ammcello]

Was expecting the Bruch 1st violin concerto!

[@markokassenaar4387]

Oh no, Bruch was a great fan of his own works and their success! 😄

[@nealkurz6503]

@@markokassenaar4387 not true in this case….see the quotes of his I posted in another reply.

[@mgconlan]

Bruch was upset at the continued success of the Violin Concerto No. 1 for the same reason Sibelius was upset with the continued success of "Valse Triste." He'd sold it outright to a publisher and got no royalties from it. Other composers who made such wretched deals include African-British Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, whose "Hiawatha's Wedding Feast" made tons of money for the publisher who'd bought it outright, while Coleridge-Taylor's two other "Hiawatha" works (he was so obsessed with Longfellow's epic poem about Native Americans he named his son "Hiawatha") were commercial failures (like Bruch's other violin concerti).@@nealkurz6503

[@markokassenaar4387]

Haha, didn’t know that! I knew he regarded himself as the greatest living European composer (or at least one of them).

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

OK...what kind of "junk" did you put in that Theraflu? Inquiring minds want to know. 🙂

[@Matt-zg9jn]

To add to the list: see also Stephen Sondheim’s old kernel Send in the Clowns (not to mention his legendary obsessive-compulsive distaste for some of his lyrics for WSS)

[@brendanward2991]

Holst's _The Planets_ was the only one I guessed. I was expecting Saint-Saens' _The Carnival of the Animals_ and Bruch's Violin Concerto in G Minor.

[@Bobbnoxious]

Actually, Saint-Saens preempted this problem by shelving "Carnival" during his lifetime. He felt it was too lightweight for his serious reputation. It was posthumously published in 1922.

[@Xinjiekou_新街口_Station]

Prokofiev is my favorite composer and have never listened to Peter and the Wolf, and never likely will bother. Everyone has heard of it but not the good stuff. Also I thought it would have been that other work of Ravels....

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You should bother. It's part of "the good stuff."

[@Xinjiekou_新街口_Station]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Yeah I know I actually have its alright...

[@jasonjackson4528]

i can totally see Beethoven being unhappy if one of thus fluff piece became famous. He got the last laugh though, even if he could not hear it. .....

[@charlescoleman5509]

Didn't Stravinsky get a little sick of his three ballets? Especially since he lost the publishing to them when he left Russia?

[@stephengould4343]

The English music critic Julian Haylock once said, "Holst was a dusty old schoolmaster who accidentally wrote the Planets"

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Stupid.

[@bbailey7818]

Theraflu works and so does a hot toddy. Bruch also came to resent his own first violin concerto as it eventually got to be the only thing of his that ever got played. And I think Ravel lamented that his most popular piece, Bolero, had no music in it.

[@SoiledWig]

i thought the 1812 Overture would be here, but then again, everyone knows that story, i suppose. The cases of Bolero and "In the Hall of the Mountain King" are similarly interesting cases, as their composers deliberately wrote what they thought was empty music and were irritated for that reason they were such universally beloved pieces. If i recall, Holst had the same thing to say about "Mars." It's lumbering, oafish music about a lumbering, belligerent oaf. Well it's a brilliant depiction of such violent oafishness.

[@barrymoore4470]

It's regrettable that the distinctly Spanish flavor of its original title is erased when the "infante" of Ravel's conception is translated as "princess", which seems universal in the Anglophone world.

[@cartologist]

Then he should have capitalized it as Infante. 😊

[@iankemp1131]

Not in the UK, where it is always known as the Pavane for a Dead Infanta and is described as that on both the main classical music radio channels.

[@barrymoore4470]

@@iankemp1131That's good to know. Thanks for the correction.

[@zdl1965]

Has anybody ever recorded Johann Pachelbel's reaction to his Canon in D? He's the very definition of a one-hit wonder!

[@jonbaum]

When you said Ravel I was sure you were going to talk about Bolero.

[@alighieroalighieri404]

Dave, why are Japanese recordings almost always superior sound wise to those made by major labels in the EU and USA?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

They care more?

[@alighieroalighieri404]

Thanks!@@DavesClassicalGuide

[@MrYoumitube]

I'll be honest, If I want to be transported into instant splendour I tend to skip the 1st part of Mahler Symphony 3 and go straight to 2nd part. IMO it is as iconic as Maher Symphony No5 Adagietto.

[@wm8392]

Was Sibelius also dismissive of the success of Finlandia?

[@dennischiapello3879]

I didn’t know that. But Finlandia is what kept me away from Sibelius most of my life. Dave’s video about the Seventh Symphony is what set me on the right track.

[@AlexMadorsky]

The Planets is one of my favorite things ever but it is indeed a shame it eclipsed (forgive the pun) all of Holst’s other work. The Ulster Orchestra has recorded some great things on Naxos like the Japanese Suite and the Walt Whitman Overture.

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

A Choral Symphony is possibly the best piece he ever wrote. I remember when I happened upon the Boult recording in a Houston record shop, I had to fight off another potential buyer to get it. HAHA. And that was the American Angel issue.

[@oakwoodian4465]

I attended a concert when Sir Adrian conducted a rare performance of the Choral Symphony. It was a long while ago but as I recollect it was a giant yawn. Sorry.

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

Khachaturian became annoyed at the popularity of the Sabre Dance from his second Ballet "Gayane" (and with good, valid reason).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's the best thing he ever wrote.

[@gomro]

I've always had great luck with TheraFlu. Was Ravel annoyed with EVERY success he had? We know he sure wasn't impressed with BOLERO's popularity. And, while I can't disagree with any of your choices, the first one I thought of was Honegger and PACIFIC 231. He goes on about it quite a bit in JE SUIS COMPOSITEUR. That said, this stuff happens in every artform, I imagine. I know for sure that Conan Doyle was disgusted with Sherlock Holmes' success and even tried to kill him off. And Isaac Asimov hated to hear "Boy, NIGHTFALL was really great," as it was an early work and he wrote over 300 tales afterward.

[@eliecanetti]

I was also thinking Dave would mention Bolero. There is also Orson Welles, who didn’t think Citizen Kane was anywhere near his best work. And he thought Rosebud was a cheap gimmick.

[@eliecanetti]

Dave, have you done a counterpart video of masterpieces whose reception disappointed their composers, a la Bizet’s Carmen (although he obviously didn’t have much time after it premiered).

[@barrymoore4470]

British author Anthony Burgess would be yet another example, decrying how he would likely be remembered best for his 1962 novel 'A Clockwork Orange', almost certainly his most famous work. Burgess went on record as hating the book (he was however prone to fudge the facts). Many Burgess admirers believe his masterpiece to be his 1980 novel 'Earthly Powers'.

[@barrymoore4470]

@@eliecanetti Welles was right about 'Citizen Kane', the most consistently overrated film in the medium's history. Welles' most personal film, if not indeed his best, is probably 'F for Fake', from 1973.

[@eliecanetti]

@@barrymoore4470 Yes, I’ve seen it. It was indeed fascinating.I thought he regarded “The Trial” with Anthony Perkins as his favorite. My favorite is probably Touch of Evil, but this probably isn’t the place to be debating Welles’ oeuvre.

[@Foisterous]

I saw this title and thought for sure it would include Carnival of the Animals.

[@barrymoore4470]

That work, however, was unknown to the larger public until after the composer's death, as he had prohibited all public performance of it during his lifetime, and it likewise was only published posthumously.

[@ME-qr7hs]

P.S. get well.🤢

[@garygary-tp9hc]

One think at a time David, focus on improving your English and then think about tackling French.

[@iankemp1131]

Or maybe one thing .... ? Nuffink to it mate ...