7 Worst Fantasy Villain Clichés (Writing Advice)

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

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[@jukeboxmimic6954]

Would you be willing to give me some feed back on my story?

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

​@@jukeboxmimic6954 I appreciate the interest but the time needed to properly read and analyze the story of others isn't something I can offer at this moment. Done right, this requires serious effort and I don't provide any "beta read / editing" services at the moment that could cover this. This might change in the future though 🙂

[@The_Trident_Master]

The monologuing thing is why I love the Incredibles, Watchmen and Age of Ultron so much. Mr. Incredible uses it against Syndrome, Ozymandias enacted his plan thirty minutes before the heroes arrived and only monologued after, and Ultron has that “oh, here’s the part where I was going to explain my evil plan” and then cuts himself off by starting the fight

[@nanoblast5748]

"I'm not a comicbook villain" *insert mewing/gigachad supercut*

[@abcdef27669]

“Real life villains are not cartoonishly evil”. Well, read about Idi Amin Dada, Pol Pot, Francisco Macias Nguema, Nicolas Maduro, Jean Bedel Bokassa, Rafael Leonidas Trujillo and anything about the last rulers of Turkmenistan. Maybe you will rethink that phrase…

[@comradeboris167]

Nicolas Maduro abolished a system in which privately owned companies suff their pockets with the money earned by exploiting his nation's resources and replaced it with the one that uses the same money for the common good of his people and the betterment of the society. Then the bourgeoisie put embargo on him and now the resources are just sitting around and the whole system went bankrupt. Ofc they wont just let a nation liberate themselves and have their happy ever after. Incentivizing the people to free themselves from exploitation is bad for the exploitor's profit. If anyone is cartoonishly evil in that situation it's the capitalist neocolonial system.

[@abcdef27669]

My least favorite Villain cliché: Killing subordinates for minor mistakes. It just breed internal rebellion, and there are other punishments that could be more effective in order to intimidate the minions, like reducing salary or taking away a promotion.

[@epis8613]

Not necessarily. It depends on the context. If I'm a stormtrooper, I'm going to be happy to get promoted because Darth Vader killed my CO. If everyone is pursuing power, backstabbing is going to be part of it.

[@joshuabaru2908]

​@@epis8613Yup, context is king!

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

That would have been a good one as well, yes - good addition 🙂At least in certain situations, this is somewhat of a cliché. It can work very well though - as most things.

[@yvesgomes]

Agreed. Saw this on Marco Polo and DNFed right away.

[@holly_gmTwb]

2:16 "his _entire_ backstory" 😂 the word 'entire' came out so weary, then chased with "even his wifi password" I choked on my coffee.

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

Glad to hear that some of the attempted lightheartedness in the video actually is noticable 🙂

[@holly_gmTwb]

@@TheTaleTinkerer ♥️ your content. I'm a better writer because of it.

[@ShaneStapler]

i really admire and appreciate the consistency on the uploading and doing the community posts. that commitment and passion does not go unnoticed

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

Thank you for the supportive words, really appreciate it 🙂

[@intergalactic92]

Reminder that tropes are tropes for a reason, because they have been used to great effect in many a story. But you need to understand why they work to use them effectively. Poorly used tropes become cliches.

[@eyeamthei1801]

I agree almost all of them. With the exception of cliché 5. A manipulative women who has the self-confidence to use her femininity [and attractiveness] as weapon is scary as hell. Personally, I find them even more scary, than smart women. Not to mention, smart people use everything they have in their disposal [including their beauty].

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

Honestly, seduction should be to a villainess’s toolkit what diplomacy is to a Lannister’s… “a very effective weapon, but by no means the only one; nor even the most effective in all circumstances.”

[@presleybaldwin3756]

Exactly...

[@zanzaboonda]

The problem comes in when their 'femininity' is reductive. Usually it's presented not as something they have the confidence to do but something they do due to a lack of confidence. Resorting to this is kind of a cheap shot used when you can't win another way. (Is she not smart enough?) Or it's a just a sexual fantasy of sorts from the author. When done well, it can actually be very fun, exciting, and even surprising. But that's not typically how you see it used. Making this their sole or primary tactic is just silly if she doesn't have any other depth to her.

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

@@zanzaboonda agreed- especially on the point of the character serving as ‘wish-fulfillment’ for the author. Conversely, could one then argue that this kind of reduction of a villainess to her sexuality is akin to reducing a bulky ‘Right-hand Man’ henchman archetype to his physicality? If so, then I agree completely on both accounts. I like to see female characters who can resort to violence, sexuality, and acumen in equal measure. Simultaneously, it would be interesting to see a muscular Number-Two Henchman either outsmart the protagonist to one degree or another; or even to see him finesse someone who found him attractive in order to achieve his goals.

[@zanzaboonda]

@@stephenfitzgerald9769 for sure! I think that would be a fun subversion. I'd say that - in general - the henchman thing bothers me less personally because there are usually far more male characters in fantasy stories (with a few notable exceptions), so there is more opportunity to have a variety of personalities, etc. But the 'dumb jock' stereotype (which I think that would arguably fall into) is also reductive. I'd personally love a henchman who's nonviolent and shy or an interesting/unexpected hobby (knitting? painting? finance? raising pigeons?), but I don't think you see that too, too often. I think the henchman is usually like an NPC type of character, and the seductive female villainess is like a fantasy. (But those are obviously generalities, too.)

[@gabrielzinho3230]

I actually have a fake ally character who has infiltrated the group of heroes. She's a femme fatale, but she's much more than that. Her lens are our only peek at the villain's plan and the true extent of his powers, and she seduces the protagonist because she falls in love with her. This makes her super interesting because she can now tilt the scales in favor of either side, and her mood and opinions are a huge source of conflict in the story.

[@duanewhitaker7971]

Sounds like the makings of a great idea.

[@DargorV]

Kinda sounds cliché actually

[@And-ur6ol]

So cliche 7 with a twist.

[@presleybaldwin3756]

Great idea, Gabriel.

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

Great video! Though honestly, I think that Cliché#5 deserves a bit more nuance. I just finished _The Wheel of Time_ books last year and one thing that I loved about Robert Jordan’s villainesses (the female Forsaken, specifically) is that they would use *_ANY & EVERY_* tactic available to them: deceit, misdirection, traps, seduction, and brute force; everything was on the table. If they weren’t dæd or otherwise neutralized, the protagonists were in danger- full stop. Lanfear was probably the most dangerous one and her main weapon _was_ seduction. She could spam magic spells all day, but her bedroom eyes were her most dangerous weapon; because destroying Rand Al Thor morally and spiritually was more effective than hitting him with bale-fire.

[@zanzaboonda]

I think it works in this case because you have so many female characters, and they have a wide variety of personalities and techniques. If she was the only woman in the story (or one of a handful), it would be vastly different.

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

@@zanzaboonda I’ll concede that point. Part of the reason why Lanfear’s use of seduction is so effective is for a very specific reason. And the other female Forsaken have such distinct personalities and methods that at points in the narrative it feels like they’re all picking and angle and working independently, saying, “we’re trying so many different things; one of us has to get ‘em!”

[@dr.jekyll5234]

Relevant and Supportive Comment to feed the Algorangim

[@s.q.10-e66]

The villain in my story is secretly a dragon that views humanity as his possessions and play things. Is very possessive, and he shape-shifted into the form of a powerful human to rule as an emperor for centuries.

[@nyarparablepsis872]

You explained the clichés in question well! Definitely agree with your choice. Could we say that basically, it's about nuance? As you have shown, the same ideas can be used in completely different ways. As always an inspiring video! I am currently trying to plan around the last cliché in my game (leaning on TV Tropes to create good human villains). Would love to hear your opinions on the different relationships between main villain and their heavy.

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

"Could we say that basically, it's about nuance? As you have shown, the same ideas can be used in completely different ways. " Yes, we can 🙂Most things can be used to write a great story, in my opinion, it often comes down to the execution. And when a particular trope is badly executed over and over, I see it as a cliché that warrants even more care when used.

[@Dragonmoon1598]

Read a book once. It was horrible. It was like the author took their first draft and made that the book. It was 3/4ths back story. The hero's were reincarnated verisons of their past selves. So was the villain. The kicker, the villan, sees a painted mosaic of his past life. He gets all his memories back and decides to be evil (I read this book a decade ago, so not 100% accurate, but close). The point is, it's understandable using a copout reason for your villan at the start. But, after draft one. Expand on that. Because a hero is only as good as his villan.

[@Austinbuff]

To be fair, in the middle ages, the period of time that most fantasy tries to loosely emulate, therapy really kind of didnt exist

[@MichaelReddick-g4r]

Thanks for giving tips about characters, including antagonists.

[@Abegilr_Dragonrider]

I might be guilty of clichés 3, 4 and 6. The BBEG of my story was abused by his parents, and that pain attracted a demon that corrupted him. He killed his parents, but his future mentor took him on as his apprentice (the mentor has his reasons). The BBEG got therapy, but due to outside forces that therapy didn't help much. The mentor's goal is to stop demons from invading the world, but his research into demonic nature was banned, so he looked for other alternatives. He planned to summon a demon to use its power, but his apprentice, the BBEG, went to stop him, but he was too late. That demon summoning ritual left both of their souls scarred and vulnerable to evil spirits. They both fell to evil, and set out to get revenge on those that had wronged them.

[@karatekoala4270]

0:50 I love Drew Hayes's take on this in his "Villain's Code" series. "Everyone wants to take over the world until they see all the micro managing involved"

[@celestialtiger17]

An insightful video, and I agree with most of your points. However, I do have a disagreement with a point in your video. I agree that femme fatales can fall flat if done poorly, but a well-developed character with real motivations can subvert the trope. For example, my character Sky uses her intellect and survival instincts more than her sexuality to gain control. The chemistry and tension between her and Athren aren’t just about seduction-it’s a push-pull dynamic where both characters play a dangerous game and get burned. The key is to make her mind the real weapon while the allure adds layers to the tension. Their opposing viewpoints keep them apart, not her charm alone. The dynamic feels real and powerful when executed well, like Batman and Catwoman.

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

I don't think we're saying different things here actually 🙂I find femme fatales often fall into the cliché trap, yes, but I also do emphasize that they can be written in a captivating way. This is true for almost any mistake or cliché I can think of. It often comes down to the execution, so again yes, femme fatales can be great too 🙂

[@celestialtiger17]

​@@TheTaleTinkerer Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment. I appreciate the advice you offer in your videos. Several of them have changed how I develop characters and the world I'm creating. I agree with you any cliché can work if executed well.

[@n1ghtmar3w0lf3]

in a comic i make the main villain seems cartoonishly evil but his story ( which i already made out but wont spoil) shows how he changed

[@camdenthompson4307]

currently been using one specific idea ( I guess its a trope, but not really) where you have 2 or more antagonists working together, but are basically different types of antagonists. the most common one I've seen is having the pure evil boss who is considered the "Main" villain, meanwhile you have the second antagonist be the more sympathetic one of the two, that or have them basically bounce off the main villain. this is just the most common one I've seen, but I'll list a few notable examples I've seen Jafar/Iago: Jafar's the serious and calculated one, meanwhile Iago is the more comedic side of Jafar, and is occasionally used to show Jafar's inner thoughts. Vader/Palpatine: an honestly unique case all things considered. in most cases, the "Big Bad" is usually considered cooler than their sidekick/ally, but in the case of these two, Vader is considered the cooler, more sympathetic one, while Palpatine is viewed as the more evil, but ultimately less serious one of the two. Madara/Obito/Pain: kinda wanted to add this here for the rule of three, but also the fact that it happens with more than two characters. Pain is a serious, sympathetic villain who gets contrasted by the bigger threat Obito, who starts as the goofy, unserious villain but later gets revealed to be serious & sympathetic as well, and later on gets contrasted by Madara, who (albeit is still sympathetic), is still considered a much bigger threat and considerably more evil & cruel. few other examples, albeit minor include: Magneto/Mystique, Sauron/Saruman, Joker/Harley, Yzma/Kronk, Jessie/James/Meowth, etc.

[@TruthStalker93]

I think a little "cartoon-ish" villains might be what stories need nowadays. Too often do we have antagonist with deep back stories that are designed to make the reader/viewer sympathize. It's honestly getting overplayed, and has muddied the morality pool to the point modern fictional villains are just misunderstood and not purely evil or having malicious intent or behavior. Let villains be villainous again without all the ambiguity.

[@reborn6303]

dangit Kareem at it again

[@piolewus]

All my homies hate kareem

[@jahredcr916]

I’d say my villain isn’t too bad, he’s just a guy who lost at building an empire and ultimately went into a crash out that ended up with consequences that cannot be reversed, at least in the way it was before. He murdered his wife and best friend catching them in the same place at night with their sleepwear on, Lorenzo my main villain was stuck and soaking in all that happened within a week, his life is really over. Then from the shadows emerges Van Dracula the ever watchful, giving him a second chance at a life with a new goals and aspirations. He was granted a rebirth along with those who he killed, but none of them can return to their old lives. Lorenzo ends up having to imprison his best friend due to his hostility, and his wife unhappy with her life decides to jump off a cliff, ending her life.

[@kalekain3521]

Ah yes, monologues, the number one killer of villains.

[@scroletyper8286]

I disagree with most of the advice for the seductress. Sucubi are fun villains not problematic. Some tropes are old because they work. Ur advice on that boiled down to basically don't make women seductive. But throughout actual history plenty of women have used this art in their kit to do legendary things. Cleopatra for five. There were a lot of cleopatra's. I wouldn't say don't do it. Instead what if they use their intelligence to inform how they seduce or when? Making the female villain use such tactics not on everyone just when and where she deams them necessary. Some villains I've seen have said those men whom they tempted with such whiles were too easy. Game of thrones has a few of those.

[@zanzaboonda]

Another great video! Would you consider adding a 10-20 second outro sequence to your future vids? I'm usually so caught up in what you're saying that I don't realize it's near the end, and by the time I grab the remote to click on the one you link to, the video is done and I've missed my chance. Lol (I've seen most of your videos by now, but sometimes it's good to revisit them, especially in context with whatever we've just seen.)

[@TheTaleTinkerer]

Let me see if I cannot do something here in the future by rewording it slightly so that the video is shown a bit earlier. Will try to play around with that next month :-)

[@zanzaboonda]

@@TheTaleTinkerer Haha thanks! 😊

[@yootuub3869]

The best villain I have ever seen has been Emet selch. without spoiling anything in FFXIV. best way to describe him is that he IS a hero of his own story. heck there are points in Shadowbringers where i sat there wondering if what I doing as the character was right, and I as the character was trying to save the world. Thats how you know you have a fantastic villian.

[@hadeshades2365]

Tartarus is a monster both in action and appearance (noxar). Nyra starts out as a slave gets abducted and learns to live among the noxar. She is naive and wants to do good. Once Tartarus accepts her help as a diplomat she is faced with a choice. Nyra could ban slavery and order the destruction of all hybrids (machine and humans fused together). That would be a noble cause but the people can’t just give them up. They are a necessity for everyone’s every day life. For the leaders of the planet she is the villain who destroys their society and refuse, going as far as to plan an assassination. Tartarus cares little for the planets leader’s motivations and slaughters them one by one in a gruesome display. The planets leaders wouldn’t get nyras and Tartarus support they needed to save their planet. With the deadly infection having spread to far Tartarus starts to exterminate all to at least keep the planet habitable for future colonists but kills all the humans and a lot of wildlife in the process. I believe to write a truly captivating villain one must follow this principle: “the path to hell is pathed with good intentions”

[@DarkTider]

Problem is, these all become clichéd tropes once overused as has already happened, with the girlboss villain and the tragic backstory villain. They're boring, so most advice in this video is advice due Huw to create a generic boring modern villain like 10.000.000 other villains because every fantasy writer follows these tropes in the attempt to avoid the previous tropes, so it's hard to call it good advice because ndny of these things bake the villain utterly forgettable because everyone is doing it.

[@ograndemito]

Imagine a villain buying all the farmland. Are you writing a story about Bill Gates?

[@timberwolfbrother]

Why do people say "Cliches" and "Tropes" like they're bad things? Anyway, not subscribing.

[@Atypical_Typo]

They're not "bad" just overused ideas poorly excecuted. A good cliché or trope is what it is for a reason: it's understandble/relatable. Unfortunately, they are also overused "badly" hence this video. Hope this helped👍

[@zanzaboonda]

Did you even watch the video?