737 Dual Engine Failure Follow up

[@zapfanzapfan]

They got the engines out of the water after sitting on the sea floor for 3.5 months, hopefully in good enough condition to see what was wrong with them. Have you worked on, analyzed or renovated an engine or engine parts that have sat in sea water for some time? What kind of damage could it have time to do?

[@AgentJayZ]

Worked on a couple of engines that were taken from ships that had sunk. They were underwater for months. Many parts had to be replaced because of corrosion. Storing your jet under water adds significantly to the price of an overhaul. When we ran the engines on the test cell, the owners told us they thought they gave us an impossible task. So we said "Welcome to Canada!"

[@zapfanzapfan]

@@AgentJayZ JZ, the JC of engine miracle work 🙂 I doubt these engines will run again but they have been taken to the mainland to be taken apart and analyzed so who knows, maybe some parts are salvageable. Is there a ground application for the core or parts of that engine? It's based on an earlier turbojet but I couldn't find a ground or marine application.

[@AgentJayZ]

The FT8 is an industrial gas generator based on the JT8-D, and is a very popular machine. There is a vigorous aftermarket in used parts, and if any of the parts from these engines could pass dimensional and NDT inspection... after being purchased for scrap... they would be desirable for industrial use.

[@zapfanzapfan]

@@AgentJayZ Ah, thank you. No entry for that on Wikipedia, unlike the LM-series of gas turbines.

[@zapfanzapfan]

@@AgentJayZ B-roll footage from NTSB. 2,5 minutes in are the two engines being recovered and displayed. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4OwiGCoqNNgY9k

[@scottthomas5999]

Nice to see your J79 work. I was an engine mechanic on B58 and F4s. Brings back memories of dressing stator cases. Don’t miss that job. Thanks for sharing.👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@AgentJayZ]

If you even touched a B-58, you are among the coolest people on planet Earth. Back in the golden years of aviation, some crazy stuff was put into the sky. The Hustler was more hotrod than the B-1, and it looked crazier than the B-2. Like the B-36, the TSR-2, and the Avro Arrow, we will never see anything like it again. If you have any stories about that gas guzzling monster, I would like to hear them, sir.

[@greghelms4458]

Still digging this channel. Thanks Jay.

[@zakp.2759]

Hi Jay. Just hit the 1-year mark working at Pratt and Whitney. Have been watching your videos since I started. Thanks for supplementing my job with relevant concepts, lol.

[@AgentJayZ]

Can you make a walk through video? I think a lot of us would like that.

[@orvh5223]

I love the no BS way of explaining. Too many ppl insert their opinion, you good sir, lay out facts and we all can learn from it. thx

[@AgentJayZ]

Thanks. I try, but sometimes I get a bit cranky, and then the complaints roll in...

[@dehypnotizer]

It also gets on my nerves when people confuse simple terms. Semantics only? Not for us, technical people. Fully agree with you and thanks for posting.

[@stormeagle28]

Looks like a bad airline violating the rules and paying the price. The FAA already revoked their Air Carrier Operating Certificate. When it comes to airliner engines, there is no difference between freight and passenger service. The engines have to be in good condition and service life, service periods. If there is any doubt about the engines, the plane is grounded, you need to check them and make sure that they are in good condition or replace them before the next flight. Some multi-engine planes like the 747 are allowed to do positioning flights (empty, without load into service bases) with one engine inoperative, but that doesn't apply for twin-engine jets like the 737.

[@pinkdispatcher]

Excellent take on things. For someone claiming not to know things about airplanes, you do a very good job. The JT8D is up there with the most numerous (wouldn't be surprised if it held second place), but the CFM56 beats it by a factor of about two. No surprise, all B737 Classic and NG have those, as well as a majority of A320, the A340-200/300 and the re-engined KC-135s, and a few others.

[@marcpootmans7454]

@AgentJayZ, I worked around JT8D decades ago, and Dad was a training pilot on the B737-200. No FADEC, just an FCU. I'm pretty sure you could overboost a JT8D, like you could the JT3D engines on a B707 or DC-8. Our engines were "On Condition" - so long as their engine trends were okay, and would make their EPR power without exceeding maximums, you were good to go. High temps or fuel flow would be reason to call for a boroscope or radiographic inspection of the 1st stage NGV's, turbines and combustor.

[@marcpootmans7454]

But to a pilot, an overtemp / overheat can also be caused by bleed air leaks. I know of a multi-engine overheat warning out of CYYZ in a cargo DC-8. Maintenance errors and failures were involved. Engines internals were fine. The wiring harnesses got a bit toasted.

[@marcpootmans7454]

Your channel is a superb resource. Keep well!

[@MrAsBBB]

Brilliant explanation as always. You have the same love for your job as I do for my job. It shows. All the best

[@LM-fg7vi]

Always logical no nonsense info from your channel.

[@stagggerlee]

Mentor Pilot is a 737 pilot and does great videos about airplane and airline operations. Juan Brown aka Brancolierio also great. I believe using the proper nomenclature IS important. AgentJayZ also great!

[@mikecowen6507]

Broncolirio? Is that a version of JB always wearing a cowboy hat and boots?

[@NotFound-lt9jq]

@@mikecowen6507 hahaha ironic how the OP’s comment highlighted the importance of proper nomenclature, then called the great JB (Blancolirio) ‘Brancolierio’. I like your interpretation though, I can certainly imagine JB wearing a cowboy hat & $h1t kickers! 🤔🤷‍♂️🤣 P.S. I mean no disrespect to the OP, just poking fun. 😉

[@AgentJayZ]

Yes, and I should add one more channel I like to watch, and that's 74Gear. He's a 747 pilot, and shares what it's really like, for us ground-bound mortals...

[@NotFound-lt9jq]

@@AgentJayZ yes 74Gear (Kelsey) has a very good channel as well as the others mentioned. But I do appreciate the way you explain & demonstrate the operation & intricacies of aircraft power plant operations in as simple terms as is possible with such complex systems, you all bring something interesting & captivating to the table. Thx for your work AgentJayZ! 👍

[@nyarlathotep6493]

I have heard word that the crew secured the good engine and flew on the bad engine until they hit the water. Being based out of Honolulu word gets around quickly. Not to mention, TransAir has never really had the best operation out and has a bit of a reputation. This accident was bound to happen. It was not a matter of if but when type deal. I am grateful that at least the crew survived the wreck. Also great work on the videos on the topic!

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

the crew also, completely needlessly flew AWAY from the airport - had they stuck close, they could have made it back to the airport. The problems appeared right after takeoff.

[@scottwilson8105]

data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103407/pdf

[@vintagemotorsalways1676]

"Here, we're gonna give you this traffic ticket for your great 2 weeks of work. 'What? I wanted a paycheck.' Oh it's the same thing, here just take this traffic ticket - you know what I mean." That was hysterical, definitely going to -steal- borrow some variation on that in the future. Thanks

[@Casry12345]

Just a guy who lives in Whitehorse Yukon who used to work on the 737-200C with a gravel kit that Air North owned. (C-GANV) Whitehorse runway is paved. it flew regularly into Dawson City’s gravel runway before it was paved and occasionally into Old Crow which is still gravel. Inuvik is also a paved runway. I believe a lot of larger / more regulated airports don’t allow 737-200 to fly in anymore due to noise restrictions. I’m curious where you operate out of? Not to many people know much about northern Canada and you mentioned it’s close to where your at.

[@AgentJayZ]

Jet City Turbines is named after the nickname I gave Fort St. John when I first came here. This little town has seven turbine engine related shops and businesses. They all sprang up from S&S Turbines, which was created when Westcoast Transmission (Nova, Duke, Spectra, and now Enbridge) closed down their internal turbine engine overhaul facility. The former manager, Robin Sipe, took up the challenge, and is still going strong today.

[@AgentJayZ]

Here in FSJ, we occasionally see a 737-200 operated by First Air. Next time it's here, I have to check its tail number, and also see if it has a gravel kit...

[@oldtugs]

Look up Boeing "gravel kit", it also includes a vortex breaker to prevent sucking up rocks at low speed and high power.

[@Subgunman]

That modification for the gravel strips also incorporated a nozzle in front of each engine which emitted compressed air outwards and downwards to blow away any gravel that could have been thrown up into the engine intake. Yes a rare version of the 737.

[@marcpootmans7454]

It wasn't to blow dirt away. It was to prevent the formation of vortices that wcould suck FOD into the engines.

[@toppradd]

AgentZ .. i looked up “blancolerio “ - what a fascinating guy. I much appreciate your references to him, im dense-but usually get there eventually.. lol .. .. He mentioned that this practice of med flights being piloted by One, very well may be the primary reason for crash .. I’m no pilot nor turbine engine technician- but that sounds extremely dangerous and possibly liable .. must stop either way as he mentioned emphatically. Tnx for your time .. DB Ohio

[@SOU6900]

That Pratt & Whitney was the Chevy V8 of it's time I bet. 😉

[@91rss]

Friend that works on them said, Boeing only has to address issues that happened on their soil. There was a fuel tank pump fire issue caught in Canada. They emailed Boeing and they never even opened the messaged. If techs post on govt message safety boards even, The out of country makers cant even access those message boards. If your endorsed on a French aircraft, and your company doesnt currently have one. You cant keep current with access to their training videos etc. until you either go to a place that has them or your company gets one.

[@ronhublimo5220]

Thanks, love your channel. Question, have you ever used ceramic ball barring or address them? Do they used them helicopter engines? I think they do. No heat , oil?

[@AeroSlaughter]

I work out here in HNL and it's sad since we don't hear the scream of the JT8Ds anymore.

[@AgentJayZ]

I've heard them described as cigar tubes. Even though I knew what was inside them, I called them rocket pipes, largely because of their beautiful, roaring noise on takeoff.

[@mikecowen6507]

As a kid, I practically grew up on Air California 737-200s. I called them torpedoes (without a thought of how to keep flying after dropping the "torpedoes" on some imaginary enemy. Kid stuff.

[@Dee-cannon]

They Probably took the remaining engine above max continuous thrust for an extended period of time to compensate, sent it to jt-8d heaven

[@whathasxgottodowithit3919.]

An aircraft in the UK lost his starboard engine - the whole engine fell off, it wasn.t really lost though, they found it in a field some days later :-)

[@grahamj9101]

Would you please tell me about the incident to which you are referring? I recall one event where an engine fell off over the UK, back in 1968. That event happened to a BOAC B.707, powered by R-R Conways, as a result of an uncontained compressor disc failure in the No.2 engine, immediately after take-off from Heathrow. There was a raging fire in the engine nacelle, and the engine fell off. The aircraft made it back to Heathrow, but was consumed by fire, after most of the passengers had escaped. The other event that I remember all too well is the Kegworth crash onto the M1 motorway in January 1989. I had to drive past the scene of the accident on my way to Derby, less than two weeks later: the freshly turned earth on the embankment was obvious to everyone. The root cause of that crash was a fan blade failure in the No.1 engine of a nearly-new B.737-400. The engine didn’t fall off, but the aircraft fell out of the sky, narrowly missing traffic on the M1. Unfortunately, because of their relative unfamiliarity with the aircraft, the crew shut down the wrong engine and were conveniently blamed for the accident, rather than CFM International for inadequate testing of a new version of the CFM56 with an uprated fan. The engine had only been tested on the ground and not at representative altitude cruise conditions, because this was not a mandatory requirement. What had not been accounted for was the effect of the low temperature at cruising altitude. While the fan would not have been rotating at any higher a mechanical speed than on the ground, its aerodynamic speed would have been significantly increased. This resulted in fan blade flutter and fatigue failure of one or more blades. So what do I mean by aerodynamic speed? This relates to the absolute air temperature and is represented by the mechanical speed divided by the square root of the absolute temperature. Consequently, the lower the air temperature, the higher the aerodynamic speed. PS I've used the term 'aerodynamic speed' in order to give the majority of AgentJayZ's subscribers some understanding of the phenomenon. I could have used the term 'non-dimensional speed', which would probably have meant little to many. However, this would not be strictly correct, since rotational speed divided by the square root of the absolute temperature is not truly dimensionless., as it is lacking some terms, but has been described as 'pseudo-dimensionless'. However, as these terms are substantially constant they can be omitted, as long as the omission is consistent and recognised. PPS So what was the event to which you referred?

[@grahamj9101]

PS A DC-10 lost an engine (ie, it fell off) in the USA, back in 1979, immediately after take-off from Chicago O'Hare. The root cause was an unapproved and thoroughly reprehensible maintenance procedure, involving the use of a forklift to change an engine. I've mentioned it in a comment on AgentJayZ's preceding video, and suggested that we should remember the loss of 273 lives in the crash.

[@andrewallen9993]

A 737 in South Africa also had an engine fall off but made it back to the airport. Seems to be a 737 thing?

[@robertgottwald5682]

Maybe mean that they had an actual engine overheat indication, not just redline/hgih EGT or high oil temperature. An ENGINE OVERHEAT is a specific alert in the 737, that triggers as an ENG 1 OVERHEAT or ENG 2 OVERHEAT master caution alert and means that an overheat condition has been detected by the fire loop around the respective engine (149-200°C depending on the location and engine type). It is essentially the precedessor to a full fire warning, which triggers once the temperature sensed by the fire loop exceeds an even higher threshold (usually around 270-450°C). When it is triggered, following the non-normal checklist the crew will set thrust to idle and if the indication remains on (the temperature stays high), they will follow the procedure for an engine fire/severe engine damage and shut off the engine.

[@AgentJayZ]

It does not mention the fire detection system. An overheated engine is completely different from a fire on the outside. Maybe they had both at the same time. That would not be good at all.

[@robertgottwald5682]

@@AgentJayZ It does not mention the fire detection system, but when a 737 pilot talks about an "engine overheat" they probably mean they have an engine overheat indication, not just high oil temp/EGT (which is the fire loop sensing extreme heat around the engine). Like in this case: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmWvaKJubbWeg9U This CBT explains the overheat detection system: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqTLiX2VrLaanKs

[@AgentJayZ]

EGT has nothing to do with a fire loop around the engine. It stands for Exhaust Gas Temp, measured with thermocouple probes arranged in the gas path inside the turbine case or jet pipe, and is a measure of the thermal stress on the internal hot parts. It is often the limiting factor on how much power the engine can make. I was pointing out that this short report does not have enough detail to know exactly what happened.

[@billkillernic]

Are the flags behind you purely decorative or are they related to something ? (e.g the nationality of your friends etc)

[@AgentJayZ]

Viewers who are friendly send me flags, and I put them up. Dumbass douchebags complain this and that about the politics of the world and they can suck on a flagpole. Pardon my aggression, but they are many dickheads, dicknoses and dick brains in this world, and I hear a lot of crap from each and every dumbfck one of them. Any d-bag who complains about the flags is permanently ejected and rejected from Jet City.

[@schwags1969]

People from around the globe send them in, I like it, makes it feel nice in a jet engine shop in Northern Canada. I am a heavy duty and small engine mechanic and a little color on the wall is nice.

[@schwags1969]

@@AgentJayZ Woah, that is funny. Literal gut punch.

[@AgentJayZ]

This channel is not a public debate space or noticeboard. It is the Jet City Universe, and I am the Creator. I have a low tolerance for ignorant asswipes, and I will eliminate anything and anyone I don't want to listen to. Zero given. Bing Bang, Shangalang.

[@billkillernic]

@@AgentJayZ Υο m8 I just made a question out of curiosity since I saw my country's flag up there too, didnt want to upset you and I am not an ignorant asswipe or at least I try not to be lol

[@volvoguyV70R]

I've cleaned a fair number of JT8-D compressors in my day.

[@mikewilley5678]

Love this description!!

[@RobertMonroe-sf7tx]

Watching your dual JT8D failure video. Is it likely that the plane was mis-fueled with Avgas instead of Jet-A ? They had just departed HNL and I believe they said the left engine overheated as well.

[@AgentJayZ]

Gasoline burns just fine in a jet engine. Because it has lower lubricating properties than kerosene based jet fuel, the fuel controls and pumps wear out faster, but not in a matter of minutes.

[@shengleiwang2291]

Hi AgentJayZ , I do feel especially at home here, I am from China, one question for you , I did not get that why the coating peeled off from the compressor case could cause the engine couldn't start.(tolded by R&R representative) (R&R turbo fan engine).The engine N2 reaches around 50% then dropped (normal idle N2 should be 58%), fuel flow and ingition normal.

[@jonathanperry8331]

If you haven't made a video about all the different lines that wrap around the compressor I'd like to see one. If you have just let me know what its title was.

[@AgentJayZ]

This one might help: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZnFqIqkl6x_p6c It's called rigid lines.

[@jonathanperry8331]

@@AgentJayZ I appreciate that. It looks like utter chaos when you don't know what's going on.

[@hardcoregames9029]

The JT8D engine has a reputation for reliability

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

yes and no, yes to the stove pipe - but the QEC/accessories etc. are hydro/pneumatic/mechanical and very temperamental in terms of leaks or mechanical issues

[@garykusnierz2108]

Thank you !!👍

[@mattbucko6900]

How many hours does the engine from a natural gas pump get rebuild??

[@AgentJayZ]

Ten thousand or so. Twenty thousand is not unusual. I've seen owners run them until failure.

[@grahamj9101]

I was still a relatively young designer at Rolls-Royce Industrial and Marine Division, well over 40 years ago, when it was announced that an Industrial Avon on Trans Canada Pipelines had been removed after over 40,000 hours in service. It was claimed to be the first industrial gas generator from any manufacturer to achieve over 40,000 hours.

[@TeemarkConvair]

and thats about as far as we can go with the information available..

[@cm9247]

When an engine stalls, is it cavitation that caused it? Great Channel man.

[@AgentJayZ]

I've made a long, detailed video explaining exactly what compressor stall is in a jet engine. It's called Compressor Stall. If you type that into the search box on my channel page, it'll pop up. Watch it, and you will understand more than my instructors did when I was in Jet school.

[@kensherwin4544]

@@AgentJayZ Yes. Please look up this video. It made me understand compressor stall for the first time.

[@cm9247]

@@AgentJayZ Will do! And thanks!

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

Cavitation damages ship propellers, not the same thing.

[@falconeaterf15]

Most reliable gas turbine engines must be Briggs and Stratton. Never heard of one failing.

[@AgentJayZ]

Well, whatever you have never heard of...must be the best, for sure.

[@NnO0Worries]

My father once made a cart for me and my brother with a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine. He installed the engine 90 degrees to drive the ax. Unfortunately he forgot it had splashlubrication. It went fine a couple of runs until the engine seized due to lack of lubrication. The splashrotor was spinning in the air. Fun times though. Later put a moped engine in.

[@hydraulictechworld3466]

Good sir

[@PenninkJacob]

More JT8D (JT8abc) stuff please👍👍👍

[@AgentJayZ]

I have never worked on one, or had one in the shop. I would like to. Still waiting for the call.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

All the ‘looks like’ comments look pretty ridiculous now that the report is out. The good engine was pulled!

[@AgentJayZ]

I'm pretty sure all those people... and me, who made that mistake were giving the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I wonder how much this affects the pilot's career.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

⁠@@AgentJayZSir I bow to your consistent excellence and rock solid trustworthiness, I’d never for one second think to belittle your opinions. I have a very low regard for the (true sense of the word) ignorant who jump in with unshakable conviction condemning the integrity and professionalism of the caring honest people who they recklessly target, inevitably wrongly. I love the smell of burnt kerosene.

[@AgentJayZ]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@charlesgibson2171]

Second Law of Thermodynamics at play.

[@williamvolkmann8658]

Can we even imagine the utter creepy silence the flight into Brazil carrying the world class socker team . 30,000ft. 8-mi. Out 2:45am. All went down on a 9,500ft. Mountain, 3more min. If fuel and they would of had an even chance, British airways old model for sure, 65nott head wind all the way, sad ..

[@TalkieToaster.]

I believe operators like Nolinor are refreshing their 200 combi's with glass cockpits etc and extending their service life substantially just because of the Gravel Kits, quite a valuable version of the 737 in certain parts of the world because they can operate from undeveloped strips etc. The fact they use bleed air to prevent FOD always fascinates me.

[@louisesamchapman6428]

Too much gravel , not enough guard, eh?