$80 vs $800 DAC: Is there REALLY a difference in sound?

[@VirusForPrez]

The SU-1 is THE budget King of the moment (i HAVE 3) .Half the dacs in the 500$ range can't even compete with it sonically. SMSL has given the audiophile community on a budget the best gift ever , ...

[@ForeverAnalog]

I agree, it's a fun DAC for a great price!

[@maXXXjacker]

It's a damn shame this doesn't come in a balanced flavor (for not much more).

[@jack52577]

It's called D6s.

[@Hirnlego999]

@@maXXXjacker Moondrop Dawn Pro has balanced out

[@maXXXjacker]

@@Hirnlego999 That is correct, the Moondrop Dawn Pro does have a balanced out.

[@ramondelgado6778]

Great video!!!! I’m super happy with my SU-1. I’ve tried three other DAC s in the 300-500 range (and a Modi 3E) The SU-1 is the one my ears prefer with the rest of my system. Thank you!!!!

[@ForeverAnalog]

Great to hear!

[@ahambhramasmii]

How's ifi zen dac v2 compared to these​@@ForeverAnalog

[@trevorbartram5473]

When I need another DAC I'm going to try that SU-1. It wasn't around when I bought a Modi.

[@aeon7748]

Did you try something else with an AKM chip? Did you use RCA output for all of them?

[@r423fplip]

​@@aeon7748 it won't make any difference, it's a transparent DAC. It's also linear. Your mind will be the only thing getting in the way .

[@michaelwright1602]

Very good break down on both of these. I had the Ares II and still have the SU-1, this review is spot on.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thank you!

[@adsph]

As a SU-1 owner this was great to see. Thank you.

[@ForeverAnalog]

It’s a fun little DAC!

[@adsph]

I agree. My first go round in the dac world.

[@jackfalco5351]

Spend the money it’s well worth it to get the musical sounding dac

[@ZookLife]

Musical sounding Dac! 😂 I can't believe you wrote that

[@robertreynolds2212]

I started with the Ares II almost 3yrs ago. Fast forward, there’s a Terminator + sitting on the desk now. 😅 this hobby is a deep, deep rabbit hole.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Agreed! Thanks for watching and sharing!

[@hifivaliant8937]

Terminator+ is a good DAC

[@dougg1075]

It’s all about synergy. Bright with dull and dull with bright. Enjoyed the video

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thank you for watching!

[@ahuesphoto]

I agree, it’s all about synergy. And that depends on the rest of your system

[@SuperSomphon]

Exactly, matching to your entire system is more important than price. These 2 dacs may sounds completely opposite in different system than the reviewer’s

[@r423fplip]

Audiophools love that old nonsense term.

[@r423fplip]

​@@ahuesphotoI don't ! Only the speakers and placement will make a difference.

[@neilmatthews2248]

No offense intended, but unless it's a blind comparison, the enormous price difference is virtually guaranteed to have a significant bearing on such subjective results.

[@jbarelds78]

Exactly what I thought. This should have been a double blind test (or blind at the least). Another thing that is often looked over is level matching the output of the devices.

[@LDN_BOX]

Pearl Acoustics KZbin have a DAC comparison on their channel with links to the uncompressed recordings on their website. They covered a wide variety of DACS too. I noted that even the £100 Topping sounded very good and that was the least expensive

[@blackpepperz3393]

I had a similar experience. I recently bought the Eversolo Dac Z8 (€700 in the EU) and immediately noticed three things: A) very clear, transparent sound, B) strong stereo separation, and C) that the sound was too anchored to each speaker. While the DAC sounded analytical, the focus on each speaker made the music less enjoyable. I kept noticing which sound came from the left or right, which distracted me. Two days later, I bought the HoloAudio Cyan 2 DAC (€1390 in the EU) and compared them. While I preferred the Eversolo’s clarity, I ultimately enjoyed the music more with the Cyan 2. Since making music enjoyable is a DAC's main job, I’ve decided to return the Eversolo, despite being tempted to keep both.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thank you for sharing your experience here, very helpful!

[@jim010109]

I kinda went down the DAC rabbit hole as well. With a Schiit Modi vs a Geshelli J2. With headphones and using a Whiim Pro, I couldn't really tell a difference. But I'm 58 and spent 30 years working in manufacturing plus I was in the Air Force working on the flight line. So there's that. I like the J2 more for its connection options and the way a person can build it to one's likeing. Case options, color options, different shades of glass to choose from. But that's just me. Great video.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thank you for watching and for your service! Geshelli is on my list for 2024!

[@trevorbartram5473]

I have a Schiitt Modi too, so your observation is good to know. It does well in ASR testing too!

[@jshanker2005]

I am 63 and I ordered the SU-1 just now !! I worked in the software industry for 30 years. I can't wait to put those tired feet up and crack open a few cans of beer.

[@s.daniel9224]

Crew chief here. That flight line ain’t easy…

[@ramondelgado6778]

@@jshanker2005 update? Thank you!

[@Steve-no2hh]

The only truly meaningful way to do this would be with a blind test of, say, 4-6 DACs (with a middle price tier if 6 DACs), altering order of DACs with each song or music sample. And it should be done with a variety of accessible music you're NOT familiar with. (And accessible, so it won't automatically sound better the 2nd or 4th time you hear it.) AND the same songs and samples should be played AGAIN in different order, with a different ordering of the DACs later in the test. Ideally, the 4-6 DACs should be DACs you're not familiar with - though even if you are, the unfamiliar music should add some objectivity. The lack of blind comparisons makes all the audiophile comparisons suspect, if not worthless. (FYI: When I was a TA in grad school, all TAs and professors graded essay tests and papers wo looking at names.)

[@ggroch]

Nice guy, but you lost me at 1:18 when you said "I didn't expect that (amount of bass response) from an $80 DAC." Do you maintain that your expectations/biases have no impact on your own subjective listening assessments? Measurements of the SU-1 indicate it has "Near Perfect" linearity...which means it has exactly the bass response that is in the music within less than 1dB. Why would you expect otherwise?

[@jerrypowers7671]

Exactly!

[@ForeverAnalog]

Fair point - perhaps I didn't get my point across well which was the bass on the $80 DAC sounded different than the $800 DAC which was the premise of the video, to try and point out to folks who say "all DACs sound the same" that they in fact, do sound different. Thanks for watching!

[@dannyfannyfoodle]

Great, here come the ASR, measurements-only, AmirBots. Cuz, you know, if you can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist. Therefore an $80 DAC that measures perfectly “sounds better” than an $800 or $8,000 DAC with “inferior” measurements. Go troll somewhere else.

[@davidkclayton]

I wonder if you thought of trimming the Bass a tad, with the tone controls on your preamp.

[@ggroch]

When you know which DAC is playing and have preconceptions of how they will sound I would be very surprised if they did not sound different. The folks who say "all DACS sound the same" mean they will sound the same if you remove expectation bias from your comparison. Again, Do you believe that your own expectations/biases have no impact on your subjective listening assessments? If so, why is that? @@ForeverAnalog

[@gino3286]

imho a very telling quality is the ability of displaying a good 3D soundstage with the right recording and system there are test tracks on many test cds to check this I find them quite useful

[@donalddeorio2237]

I have the SU1 and am very happy with it. Couldn't justify $800 on a fixed income. Good review

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks! I agree that thr SU1 is great!

[@gwine9087]

Perhaps the real question would be: 'Is an $800 DAC 10 times better?".

[@ForeverAnalog]

Love that idea!

[@jp93309]

Right? 10x the price better?

[@jp93309]

Right? 10x the price better?

[@khallgrimsen]

For some a 10 times expensive dac can be 10 % better but they choose to buy. Because it might have fixed issues imoprtant to them. Like ear fatuige.

[@BunnyslippersEUC]

If you can hear the sound of an instrument on the 800 dollar dac, but not on the 80 dollar dac. It would be even 1000 times better.

[@NeilBlanchard]

I would highly recommend buying a $260 DAC - the Geshelli J2S. Or if your budget allows, I would get the $430 J2S with the optional AKM 4499 chip. With either J2S, later I would upgrade the op-amp(s) to Sparkos, and use a 12V linear power supply. The J2S has the best bass and dynamics of any DAC I have heard for less than $1000, and the best soundstage/layering and detail, as well. With the big Sparkos in the RCA socket (or two of the small Sparkos in the XLR sockets) and a decent linear power supply, the Geshelli J2S is reference level.

[@ForeverAnalog]

I would LOVE to pick up a J2S. Crossing my fingers it happens this year!

[@s.daniel9224]

Yep. I have that exact configuration in my main system. Getting ready to order 2 more J2S. For me, they’re perfect.

[@Coneman3]

Diminishing returns is at play right through Hifi. It probably applies most to DACs imo.

[@neilmatthews2248]

I couldn't agree more. It was very different in "the old days" when there were significant, measurable, objective differences between cassette decks, tuners, cartridges, etc., but there's so much "waffle" in describing differences between one competent DAC and another!

[@Coneman3]

@@neilmatthews2248 yeah I have 4 different DACs. They don’t sound very different. Cheapest is an Audio Alchemy DDE3, Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21, Jays Audio DAC2 SE, Audio Music DAC/1. They go from original MSPs of £700 to £13k. All sound great.

[@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph2120]

Theirs no best dac only the right dac for your hifi system ' And what you want from the dac ' Price doesn't matter I have cheaper dacs that have better synergy than my more expensive dacs and Vice versa Depending on setup Thanks for the video

[@ForeverAnalog]

Yep, I agree. Thanks for watching!

[@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph2120]

@ForeverAnalog thanks for the video ' crazy how a dac can tie the whole systems together to subjective taste ' I have the ares2 and Burson composer ' The Composer is a exellent dac espically channel seperation and micro details just pop out ' but ares 2 has a softness to it ' some refer to as sounding analog ' or non antlitickle (Articulate) or overly itched out ' 😃

[@thinkIndependent2024]

Ok here is the Trick, A/B switcher for pass-thru switch to tube when you're in the mood stay with main SU-1 if not

[@ForeverAnalog]

Heck yeah!

[@MrAquinas1]

How about explaining why there are differences at all if DACs are just a matter of converting a signal???

[@carminedesanto6746]

Great video ..as I was thinking of getting the Denafrips DAC to replace my Topping…now it’s a question why 🤷🏻‍♂️..at 10 X price …but maybe one of the new “velvet “ DAC’s 🤔🤔🤔

[@ForeverAnalog]

Yeah, this is why I wish we had hi-fi stores still available to let us take gear home and audition in our systems to determine if the increased spending is worth it. I love my Ares II and don't regret the investment, but others may think different based on their preferences and how a DAC sounds within the system components they've combined! Thanks for watching and the kind comment!

[@carminedesanto6746]

@@ForeverAnalogNo Problem ☕️❄️🥶 You’re absolutely correct..the entirety of the system and source chain is to be taken into account. Short version of my stack. AUDEZE LCDX 2021 Edition/ Sen’s 650’s…. Bryston BHA-1 Headphone/ Preamp WiiM Pro..feeding a Topping E50 DAC Denon 3530 ( yes I’m the OG owner of that awsome cd 💿 player ..now used as a transport) Would I like t upgrade the DAC / streamer …but to get a substantial upgrade..Eversolo 8 or one of the LUMIN’S ..serious money again. Take care

[@s.daniel9224]

I go through lots of gear. The one piece I’ve always kept is a topping e70… I think. It has the AKM 4499. I run 2 g’horns in mono and q acoustics 3030i’s. For me, it’s a special sound and evokes emotion in the listening experience.✌️

[@carminedesanto6746]

@@s.daniel9224 I went with the new Denafrips Ares 12-1 DAC …so damn smooth 😎

[@NickNick-id8sb]

It also has to do a lot with the presentation of the amplifier/receiver. I have a technics amplifier from the late 90s. Its sound signature is warm. My technics cd player broke down beyond repairing, so I replaced it with a second-hand marantz, which also has a warm presentation. Warm + warm +warm speakers = too warm. That's where the beautiful SU-1 comes in to lighten things up. Suddenly, you are listening to sweet sweet music without breaking your bank account. When my savings are enough to replace my entire system(let's say 1000 bucks for each piece of the system), that's when I will consider something from Denafrips or Cord. For now, I'm a happy entry-level audiophile.

[@pascaljean2333]

Ares 2 is fantastic, non fatiguing sound, wonderful detail.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Agreed!

[@carlsitler9071]

My supposedly bright Sanskrit 2 synergies well with my slightly warm Asgard 3 (then neutral BasX).

[@ForeverAnalog]

Awesome!

[@scottgordon1721]

Excellent review I wish there were more of these so we can get some understanding of what they sound like before we purchase . As many of us have no close place to listen nor have the selections.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks for watching!

[@howardskeivys4184]

The differences between DACS can be very subtle. I’ve just upgraded my £700 Delta Sigma DAC to a £3000 R to R. There is nothing wrong with that £700 DAC but the subtle differences bought by the £3000 DAC are in my opinion worth every penny. I think we need to look in terms of being ‘price appropriate’. If your amp cost you £300 and your speakers cost you £500 I don’t think that system would get the best from a £800 DAC. Would probably be more at home with a £80 DAC. No, it is highly unlikely that an £800 DAC will outperform an £80 DAC by a factor of 10. But if your hifi budget can comfortably accommodate that £800 DAC and your system can display that £800 DDACs full potential, then all is good.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Great points, thank you! Congrats on the new DAC. Sounds awesome.

[@saltyolive_]

subtle as your setup is not revealing enough, but too many factors to consider, power cords and Linear power supplies are one area to start. I find R2r Dacs lack the split second transient attack of SD chip set. coming from a Denafrips Pontus ll to Sonnet Morpheus to now questyle CMA 15 :)

[@mcfIy]

Great to hear that it is worth every penny to you. You said you just upgraded, so give it some time. My experience taught me that even well after 200h of playtime, things can still settle in. And i agree, your overall fidelity is only as good as its weakest link. Which DAC did you go for?

[@howardskeivys4184]

@@mcfIy I upgraded my Audiolab M-DAC to a Denafrips Venus 2 12th edition!

[@mcfIy]

@@saltyolive_ ​To your point: Upsampling with HQP in PCM form should've taken care of that "lack of" transient attack you are describing. You have to find the right fiter tho. Have you tried that while you had your R2R's? But i could easily understand if you don't wan't to bother fiddling around and just want to set it and forget it. What we like is preference based. Glad you found gear that you enjoy. Happy listening!

[@trevorbartram5473]

DAC chips have become so good that I believe the deciding factors are the quality of output buffer (opamp) & power supply (noise filtering etc). The Denafrips is a discrete DAC (not a chip) that is tweaked during production to be 'perfect', so it has a head start. The real question is which of the best cheap DACs has exceptional sound? AudioScienceReview may be used to technically sort out the wheat from the chaff.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Great points, thank you. I think the cheap DACs keep getting better and better so deciding which is best is going to be tough!

[@trevorbartram5473]

Well, you did well in the SMSL vs Denafrip test. I say bring em on!

[@trevorbartram5473]

So how would you choose the best six cheap DACs out of the hundreds available?

[@Coneman3]

ASR only believe in measurements. Very narrow minded people there.

[@userhwoarang]

Cheap Chip-DACs are getting better all the time. I‘ve testet a lot DACs over a long time. On a very good Stereo there a big difference. There are a lot of reasons why. Output Stage, Volume Control, etc. My HoloAudio May DAC is very expensive, but I am able to hear music over hours and hours without getting tired or stressed.

[@LifeProducersofNewJerseyLLC]

High end units are often reference models. Which means that reference is nuetral and does not boost or deminish sounds which results in colorization. Please point that out.

[@audie-cashstack-uk4881]

It's the opposite many times fiio k11 headphone dac amp 120£$ ref as fk many 500plus £$ amp dacs coloured as hell

[@dipanjanbiswas6580]

Excellent comparison - you captured it perfectly 👍I had the same experience when listening to the same tracks over SU-1 vs vinyl

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thank you for watching!

[@paullawrence5900]

Just got my SU-1, plugged in my Rogers a75 Series 2, Rel Q100 sub, a pair of crappy but ok Sony speakers. Using the USB 3.2 output from my PC. Absolutely amazing maxxed the sample playback rate at 768kHz with AIMP. Absolutely loving it 🤩

[@ForeverAnalog]

It’s such a surprising little unit!

[@adaboy4z]

I have that SMSL SU1 and its a great dac for the price. You are correct is has a great low end bass response.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Agreed!

[@DarenLee]

Would it be considered a warm dac?

[@34332]

​@@DarenLee No, it's fully transparent and/or neutral, like it should be for a DAC.

[@r423fplip]

It has a linear response, just look at the numbers. Audiophools who know absolutely nothing. Get educated at ASR.

[@adaboy4z]

@@r423fplip I dont think you calling me a fool! Ive been a member st ASR and Audiokarma for years. I own several Dacs in several different systems.

[@martijn_nl]

I've received the SU-1 today and returned it today. I've paired it with the Rupert Neve RNHP and Verum 1 headphones. I switched back and forth between that setup and the first generation Chord Mojo with the Verum 1. The latter sounded so much better. With the SU-1 I was missing instrument details from i.e. bass and saxophones. Vocals sounded too sharp for my taste. I expect the SU-1 to be a good match for some speaker systems.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks for sharing!

[@vasiliydmitriev3723]

In regards to money there are no fools. Who would buy Mojo or the like if they sounded same as kind of SU-1?

[@watchnut]

I have noticed, at least in my system, the more I spend on the DAC, the less digital it sounds.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Agreed. Same here!

[@petermoore7796]

do you have a favorite dac? bonus if you have a “go to” under $200

[@deputy3690]

People are getting ripped off big time with so called hi end electronics, in my opinion.

[@audie-cashstack-uk4881]

Once you move away from the barging bin section all,dacs are good same with ampage especially with headphones direct headphones switch ps5 phone bad external dac amp 100£$ plus GOOD

[@phen277]

Good video. I had just picked up an SU-1 for my birthday to upgrade from my Amazon Basics DAC. Don’t laugh. The AB DAC was very good at translating the signal and then stepping back and letting the music take over. It appears the Ares II does something similar (not the same). I do enjoy the SU-1 and immediately heard a difference when I plugged it in.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Awesome. No laughing here - audio will always be a journey for me which means we have to start somewhere and begin from there - I'm happy you like the SU-1. It might now be my favorite entry level DAC to recommend folks new to the idea of using one.

[@andrewbrazier9664]

DACs we're once only found as integral components in Compact Disc players & Home Theatre recievers & more recently 2 channel stereo amplifiers. Interesting times 🎶

[@jayem1826]

Sorry. I don't get your April 19th/April 20th reference. Haven't been to the States in a very long time

[@ForeverAnalog]

It's a marijuana joke, lol

[@enricolisk1357]

Pairing is critical. A warmer sounding speaker may not be the best for SU-1. I have paired it with 2 B&W speakers, love it. Q3030i is warmer with punchier bass & i never paired it with the SU-1. May be i will test it out... I don't have expensive DACs, so cannot comment on them.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks for watching and for sharing!

[@Oldsukerbole]

Delta sigma VS r2r DAC. The smsl is objectively the far superior one.

[@kraig7777]

If you REALLY want to have fun, try the SU-1 on 4/20.

[@ForeverAnalog]

LOL - best comment so far, thank you!

[@corumuk67]

Great analysis. I still have my first external DAC, a DacMagic Azur from around 2010 (cost around £200). Still think it sounds great but the latest batch of affordable DAC's from the likes of SMSL and Topping do have me wondering whether it's time to upgrade.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks for sharing and for watching! There are so many DACs hitting the market it's kind of overwhelming, but also a lot of fun!

[@gleamtarrest6310]

I have had all those DACS several years ago, they all do their job. I quit buying those type of dacs simply because of there is no pride of ownership, if you want something on your desk that works then they will fit the bill.. I have a $250.00 schiit that sounds phenomenal, I have a $2,500.00 schiit that sounds exactly what I want!

[@hartyewh1]

I'd love to see this blind ABX'd since imo sighted comparisons don't really mean much regardless of the listener. Also did you use a tube amp during testing which adds a lot of distortion making it a bit hard to generalize?

[@ForeverAnalog]

No tube amp

[@junyang6396]

abx blind test please

[@wric01]

Biggest leap is in i2s dac and a streamer like pi2aes mercury, ditch the usb. Raspi4 and swapping hifi os for tinkering

[@michaelwright1602]

i2s is pretty cool, but all in all, with the Mercury V2 streamer, I found the digital coax to be more pleasing to listen too vs i2s, this was using the Denafrips Venus II 12th DAC. I use RoPieeeXL for the Mercury OS. I still have the Mercury, but prefer the WiiM Pro, mainly for its simplicity, and the built in and easily accessible 10 band EQ which was the game changer for me.

[@superunknown2812]

Was thinking of getting the SMSL as a external dac from a Sony Dvd player...this would be the first time ive ever owned a dac.Now im wondering how is it with different music genres?Im more into heavier music(Metallica/Slayer/Megadeth and some industrial like Nine inch Nails.Find i have a hard time figuring out different dacs mainly due to the type of music im into and not many people mention those points in some reviews on dacs....or does it really matter?

[@ForeverAnalog]

I think you’ll enjoy the SMSL. I listen to similar stuff and I think you’ll find the SMSL gives it more punch than the Sony’s internal DAC does

[@superunknown2812]

@@ForeverAnalog awesome thanks for the reply

[@r423fplip]

A DAC that works with different music. Now that's the dumbest thing. It just converts the data without changes.

[@wouterkolkman]

Nice Nakamichi in the background:-) I used to own the LX-3.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks! I’ve made a couple videos about my Nak decks. I’m a big fan!

[@RoyFJ65]

I have the Sanskrit Mk-II and SU-1, find both very good but surprisingly the SU-1 pleases my ears a tad better.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Awesome thank you for sharing!

[@Zimmy_1981]

Greetings from Trinidad. Thanks for this. I almost bought the SU-1 but I go confused with model numbers & ordered the SMSL PS-100. $30 on Amazon. I'm enjoying it. Nice array of inputs, well built, easy & straightforward to use & sounds a lot better than the RB Tek one I used before. It's strange this is rarely mentioned. Is it bad in the hifi / audiophile world?

[@Woofy-tm8si]

I'd be curious how the SMSL AKM DACs that adds the AKM 4191 to AKM's newest flagship DAC chip that's supposed to raise performance to a higher level. Mind you, the SMSL DACs that employ the two chips in combination start at $450 and top out at over $900.

[@Woofy-tm8si]

I am curious as well. The 4191 is supposed to boost the AKM DAC chips performance significantly.

[@r423fplip]

So it's even better than transparent.

[@r423fplip]

​@@Woofy-tm8si go to ASR and understand what you can and can't hear. Technically better, but audible not.

[@kdomster9141]

What power suply was used on SMSL ?

[@rciacocca162]

Usb type C both data and power

[@diana73654]

Going from a cd player to a dac, is not dac to dac ? I would either use a cd transport to a dac or a cd player to an amp …

[@shipsahoy1793]

some CD players have digital outputs coax and/or optical and you bypass the internal DAC, so you're in effect using your CD player as a transport..

[@josephvanalstyne4049]

Smsl is Chip based much cleaner sound definitely like you said analytical Aries DAC r2r ladder DAC warm big Sound Stage holographic always depends what music you're listening to from 1968 to 75 generally speaking you want the tubes and you want a ladder DAC more modern digital recordings smsl with solid state that's the way I see it great video

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thank you for watching and sharing great points!

[@keith6872]

I placed my order for the Geshelli Socketed dac. Socketed meaning I can change out "op amps" to change the sound very slightly. Listening nearfield with an accurate class d amp helps hear difference easier.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Awesome. I hope to pick up a Geshelli at some point this year!

[@keith6872]

@@ForeverAnalog Also ordered their headphone amp/preamp with tone controls. Both were orderd with Mahogany wood and Rose Gold plexiglass. I will let you know if I like it.

[@jp93309]

Yes I hear the Geshelli is the one to beat in the relative budget tier

[@tonym8358]

I have the Geshelli akm4499 and never look back to su1

[@keith6872]

@@tonym8358 yes my socketed version was ordered with the 4499 chip. BTW the little Micca rb42 speakers are giant killers! Just recieved mine today and they sound great out of the box, but need POWER because 4ohm load.

[@cunawarit]

I have two separate DACs, one more expensive than the other. I think they sound different, but I can't say that one sounds better than the other as they both sound great. In fact, I also have a Raspberry Pi hat DAC that sounds really good! So at least for me it isn't "worth" spending lots of money on a DAC as affordable DACs sounds really good to me.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Very well said, thanks for watching and sharing!

[@jimromanski2702]

I guess I should presume that you did this review with CDs? I would really like to know how they sound with SACDs. But do they both even decode them? I will have to go and look that up.

[@ForeverAnalog]

SACD info transmits over HDMI and the SMSL doesn't have HDMI input. Honestly, I've given up making SACD work in my system, lol.

[@jimromanski2702]

@@ForeverAnalog I have two different players to transmit SACD to my DAC. I have an OPPO 103 with an OPPO Mod card that outputs DSD via I2S to my PS Audio DAC. I also use an old Pioneer DVD multi disc player and a 50 dollar box that converts the HDMI out for I2S output. The results are stunningly good.

[@pedrofernandez8729]

Do you know if the SMSL can accept DSD signals thru the USB inputs? According to the AMAzon site, it does. But i need to purchase an adapter to convert HDMI to USB in order to achieve that.

[@ForeverAnalog]

I can't recall sorry and currently have a friend borrowing mine!

[@Sonnell]

It is funny how audiophiles cheat themselves. Why never do proper blind A/B testing? That is the ONLY way to tell the difference. Adjusting the volume that there is no difference then quickly switch back and forth on the same material, and repeating it multiple times, starting over without knowing which is A or B and taking notes. if you Always hear the same difference then there is any.

[@nimblegoat]

I think they give different flavours, which you probably can do with software to some extent. Always amazed some people have stupid long chains to play music. Each new thing in the chain is a wondrous reveal, like removing an old dusty curtain . Also they add this $200 widget to their $20000 DAC and amazingly better , like why didn't that company add that special power chord or whatever it such as easy gain. Looking at reviewers for DACs over $1000 reviewers saying it you have this really expensive streamer as front end, get even better, but first must play through HQplayer in chain. My take is maybe something in better DACs , if you can afford it , throw your Holo Cyan 2 ( or another ) in from of your older Amp with RCAs out and forget it, Just down $1000 - probably makes a difference , and now leave rabbit hole. Same for Amps shouldn't a powerful very clean, no noise, electromagnetic interference , dark background amp , can handle speakers easily and spikes from 1980 be just as good as one from 2024? you just get different flavours and classes tube , mosfets , transistor , class D etc Speakers get better you choose your compromise , same as headphones. But is detail really what music is about, unless you are a musician and want to hear certain instruments . HDR TV is nothing like what you see out your window , people find it pleasing , same for mastering they made make it lusher, leaner , more sharp - unless a classical/folk live event with all acoustic , most live performances don't actually sound that great with noise, delays, mikes, amping , speaker delays where you are standing etc - No one wants a live drum set out of their speakers to destroy their ears

[@CM-dw3gh]

Great topic mate. You made an inreresting point about the 'sheen' sound. Which is what ive noticed from the internal sabre chip in the Audiolab 6000A. Im after that more analogue sound in a DAC and im pretty happy with the Cirrus Crystal DAC in my marantz CD7300. Im trying to now find a DAC with a Cirrus chip in because like you, ive got a CD transport, so currently im restricted to the internal Audiolab, and would like to make use of this player with a more suitable DAC. Any ideas on what stand alone DACs use a Cirrus chip?

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thank you! That's a great question on the Cirrus chip. Nothing jumps to my mind immediately as I just started my DAC journey last year, but I bet someone with more experience than me will probably jump in with a suggestion or two!

[@CM-dw3gh]

@@ForeverAnalog no worries. I do all the critical words in a search but nothing comes up. Maybe ill try and contact them directly.

[@laszlokiss3578]

I have the smsl su-1 and it is a great source on its own. combined with an ifi audio itube2 it is awesome. Welcome soundstage and technicalities, goodbye traces of digital sheen 😊

[@ForeverAnalog]

Awesome thanks for sharing!

[@freekfaro5606]

Halfway between 80 and 800 (about!), is the SMSL DO300. For my ears pretty good, but then I can't make a serious comparison. Maybe forever analog can ...

[@ForeverAnalog]

I'll have to check it out!

[@freekfaro5606]

@@ForeverAnalog I've just been trying out a Teac DV-H550, with CDs. I have no idea what the internal DAC is. Connected to my DO300, it sounds clearer, possibly a bit colder than with the internal DAC. With the internal DAC I would almost call it 'muddled'. But just a tiny bit, again in comparison. It's all connected to an equally old Marantz SR14 ... 😁

[@phen277]

Maybe DAC's are going to be used in the way that phono cartridges and speakers are: not just as a tool, but as actual implements to foment a better sound for your system/ ears, and will be switched out to accomodate changing sonic tastes.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Yes! When vinyl lovers tell me there is isn't a sound difference between DACs, I tell them that would have to be the same for the expensive cartridges they bought for their turntables lol

[@earthoid]

Feeling like you need to turn down the volume because of "digital sheen" really sucks, but at $80 the SU-1 seems to be a great DAC for the price. I splurged and got the Ares II and love the sound but bad recordings still sound like crap.

[@ForeverAnalog]

It's definitely a great DAC for the price. I love these audio products' promises but agree that very few of them can make a Minor Threat recording sound great, lol. Doesn't mean that band didn't still manage to change my life though!

[@rabit818]

It would be good if an obvious recording was used like Aja or Darkside of the Moon..

[@Newguy2it]

any comparison with c100

[@paulwoaert]

I don't understand why you would buy an external DAC for a turntable. We can buy a refurbished amp from the great vinyl era, such as a NAD amp. That's what I did for my Technics table. You can easily find one for less than $200 US. For listening on a computer with professional headphones, it's different, even if I don't understand why the offer is reduced to these two DAC choices: $80 or $800. You can find a very high quality DAC or DAC/Amp stack like the JDS Labs Dac + Amp 2 stack (each of these items costs $130 US), or the iFi Audio Zen Dac 3 for $215 US of very high material quality (which can be paired with the amp from the same British company, the Zen CAN which costs exactly the same price). So in my opinion there are better choices than being stuck between $80 and $800.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks - yeah, I don't use an external DAC for a turntable, but I do use an external preamp. Thanks for watching!

[@paulwoaert]

@@ForeverAnalog For vinyls, as I said, I suggest opting instead for a very high quality refurbished amp from the great vinyl period (they sell at very low prices) that will be very efficient? For the issue of DACs, the two devices you are confronting are indeed DACs, right? So I repeat my question: why limit a DAC purchase to this choice between an $80 model and another $800? I mentioned more interesting DAC models: that of JDS Labs (the Atom 2) or that of iFI Audio (the Zen Dac 3) which cost respectively US$130 and US$215. And the best thing is to pair them with amps from the same companies, considering that these DAC/AMP duos will cost a total of much less than US$800.

[@StagnantMizu]

I bought the aiyima A5 pro dac how would it compare to the smsl?

[@ForeverAnalog]

Unfortunately I haven’t heard the A5 Pro 😊

[@ericwichmann9536]

I ordered mine last Monday and will get it in a week i think or sooner. Ive been with a Peachtree Dac- it for years unfortunately and its an opamp without a dac chip i think ive never seen any other documentation stating other wise.

[@starker1971]

What are your thoughts on the SMSL M300SE ??

[@ForeverAnalog]

Haven’t heard it…yet

[@NeverTakeNoCut-offs]

Ha.i have both. I dare anyone to listen to them and tell me what is best..

[@jissanhuq3792]

Would you say you can’t tell? I don’t have any external DACs yet but need one. Any input better than the other on smsl?

[@Ride-Tahoe]

It does 100% if you have clean amp power and good cables speakers. It's NIGHT AND DAY. Adding a $800 DAC to consumer system and mp3 compressed recordings will be hard to measure the difference

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks for sharing and for watching!

[@rhwinner]

Being as the DAC is the heart and soul of most audio systems these days I'd say spend at least half as much as your amp. IMHO.

[@amanieux]

Cant we lower that digital sheen by simply reducing the high frequencies with eq ?

[@ForeverAnalog]

It's definitely possible, yes.

[@burton7023]

Buying a dac depends on your system if the system can only produce a certain level then a 10 thousand dollar dac won't sound much better than a 500 dollar dac

[@ForeverAnalog]

Great point, thank you! And thanks for watching!

[@rocknrollxray]

I really do enjoy a review that doesn't say one is better than the other, but that they're different. I think that's a common mistake that's made in reviews that leads to a lot of gear anxiety.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Yeah. Better will always be subjective to the end user, so I try to focus on differences rather than a "winner". For instance, in the video I posted today comparing Topping and Denafrips DACs, I pointed out that the Topping had punchier bass than the Ares II with the hope that people who love bass will consider the Topping but others who like it more laid back can consider the Ares II. Thanks for the feedback and for watching!

[@JasonD-yc3oy]

Great comparison!!! Could you review the Auris Blume Pro HiFi Bluetooth 5.0 LDAC on here?

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks. I’ll look into it!

[@liamfitzgerald7528]

sounds like the $80 one would be better for mixing and the $800 one for end user listening

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

This idea that vinyl has a "warm sound" has got to stop, it depends on your Turntable, phono pre, cartridge, amp etc Vinyl itself isn't inherently "warm" sounding. Ever heard a Crosley? Was it warm? 🤔 Another thing about dacs is, how do you listen to a DAC? You can't just isolate a dac, dacs by themselves don't create sound. You're always hearing the total of your whole system. Even when you only swap the dac and do an A B comparison you're not just hearing the dac Dacs sound different when paired with different components, the Denafrips might sound "warm" with one amp or pair of speakers but not so "warm" with another. I know measurements aren't the be all and end all but when it comes to dacs i think measurements tell a big story, measurements eliminate "synergy" eliminate all the other sound influences that your other gear introduces. The SU1 measures pretty darn good for its price, and sounds pretty good too. If you prefer how an $800 or $8k dac makes your system sound then knock yourself out. I can't justify the price, i can hear "different" but i can't hear 10 or 100x better different. Im sure some of the audiophile "magic" that some dacs introduce can be achieved with software that manipulates crosstalk and time alignment, when i was into headphones i had an app where i could adjust all sorts of parameters and make tracks sound however i prefered, big open and spacious, tight focused and thumping etc. The thing about a dac is its sound signature can't be adjusted its a 1 trick pony, its sound is baked in, you try 29 dacs and pick the one you prefer on that day and that's it thats what your stuck with, whereas software you can tweak endlessly and change the entire sound whenever you want to. I'd rather spend the money on better speakers.

[@yveslegault6825]

Forget your ears, man! Your reliable earing bandwidth is between 100 Hz and 16 kHz. So... 1- Put a test set on the units; 2- Measure according to established standard techniques; 3- Display results. Then, we will all see if there is an actual difference between the two units. Do not be afraid to put an 8,000$ unit in the test. Some of all those self appointed audiophiles gurus will cry!

[@wongkp9773]

In my view, the real question to answer is this - which dac sounds closer to the real life situation, assuming that you were there when recording are made.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Was that the goal of mqa?

[@vasiliydmitriev3723]

The retailers get much more profit from cheap audio products than from the expensive ones. So there is a great army of people who say there is no difference in sound quality between cheap and expensive products. It's a balm on their ears with regards to their pockets and maybe even on their ears as the such have most people.

[@madmeister407]

After many years of listening, watching and reading about people bleating on about digital being better than analogue and the benefits of CD, SACD, high res audio and streaming being the way forward. A DAC (any DAC at any price) works by by converting 0 and 1's into an analogue signal so your amp and speakers can produce a sound we can understand, right. So when reviewing a Digital to Analogue Converter (DAC) everyone should concentrate on how good the Analogue output stage is, after all this is what really matters. Yes I hear you say, a good DAC reduces jitter amongst other things, blah blah blah, but in reality you still need an Anologue signal to listen to music.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Great point, thank you!

[@JeffB1961]

LMAO @ the 420 analogy !!!

[@AG-bp3ll]

DACs should be transparent and shouldn't sound like anything. If your DAC is doing anything to the sound it has noise and distortion you can hear and you should toss it. The challenge is figuring out if what you think you are hearing is the DAC or your imagination. Always test blind.

[@thepinkranter279]

Well said, and maybe there's a reason they never test blind. Blind testing more than often kills all the audiophile fluff.

[@ahuesphoto]

I personally think that someone entering this hobby shouldn’t start at the very rock bottom, I would recommend you better get an AudioEngine DAC3 or a Schiit Modi for around ~150 USD. Unless you are still a student or you have to spend your money somewhere more important (i.e. in your family) do not start at the rock bottom, but still start at the bottom. When you are listening to entry-level gear even a small $50-100 dollars increment in your budget can make a huge difference in the sound; not so much when talking about higher-end gear… you have to talk about 1K increments or more…

[@ForeverAnalog]

Great point thank you!

[@ethimself5064]

How about a review on your computer's built in DAC. Mine seems great when listening to FLAC ete etc Thanks

[@backrack01]

I have a few dacs. Two systems. The Aries has always won in both. P

[@Rob1972Gem]

I love these type of videos I always think the sweet spot of a DAC is £250/about $300 I always think and would love an explanation apart from it’s the brand what actually makes the $800 DAC worth $800 and I don’t mean just the name what actual technology in there is worth that amount of money because you can guarantee with nearer enough 100% certainty. None of the electronics inside are their own when it comes to the chips that do the hard work they are off the shelf components so basically we’re talking circuit boards and what level of capacitors and electronics they put in the equipment and no point. There’s any of that ever come to that sort of price point that is to be. I’m interested in what point are you getting ripped off by a price, pulled out out of the air by a manufacturer, and where is the sweet spot in quality of sound, where after that point very quickly diminishing returns apply, this must happen in pretty much every electrical equipment you buy, but in audio equipment, they seem to be an acceptable process with higher end, supposedly higher end equipment to just literally pick a silly price out of the air of course, the hard-core ladies and gents will pay it on the assumption that the higher price always means higher quality/clarity/sound, but it’s some point/cost that won’t be true

[@ForeverAnalog]

These are all great questions/thoughts that I believe are hard to answer on a broad level as we all hear music differently and our audio systems all differ!

[@Rob1972Gem]

@@ForeverAnalog oh I understand, but it does sound like you are finding excuses to justify reasons to lean towards the $800 DAC in and the $80 DAC which you said in this video manages to make Inst stand out okay you said it sounds a bit analytical but they are things which on average moves lovers normally flood towards I still stand in my original question. People need to try to find a reason to justify the $800 price tag because there’s definitely not that amount of money is worth of equipment there, not considering that maybe 80% of it is off the shelf components that they are not responsible for as a manufacturer.

[@TOMMYBOY6969]

I agree. @@Rob1972Gem I just bought the SU-1, and I think its a winner for the price. I love it ! I mean the Ares II Dac was better in that song, in that short segment, compared it side by side. If you had adjusted the SU-1 's volume control and then fixe it with an Equalizer, or toe out your speakers, and in a blind test, most wouldnt be able to tell which is which. Like you said, the 2 units are different sounding, does not mean better, it s just preference. I mean for 800 bucks, you can buy the SU-1 and have 720 bucks leftover, sell your old speakers and plus the 720, upgrade to better speakers. To me, if you want to spend a large sum of money, near a grand, first thing is Speakers, then Amp. and then DAC is last....A better speaker can blow your socks off in every song. A very expensive DAC, the difference is minimal. If i were to upgrade the SU-1 in the future, it would be the Geshelli Labs DACs. At their cheapest model JNOG2 [J2] for $ 250 looks good. " To each his own" but if you are starting out,, the SU-1 is the best, there is no need to think...

[@RetBaron]

Equalize 4-8kHz 1-2 dB down and you rid of the sheen for free. Or make another equalization to your taste to get your "warmer and musical" aka muddier sound immediately.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Awesome, thank you for sharing!

[@Coneman3]

DACs are always striving to sound analog.

[@michaelwright1602]

The Ares II does a very good job of sounding analog. I now use a PS Audio Stellar Gaincell DAC with a vintage Sansui 4000 receiver. The PS Audio DAC is honest in its presentation, and paired with the Sansui's cap coupled amp, the sound is quite amazing. I tried the SU-1, Ares II and Venus II 12th with the Sansui, all three sounded like wet blankets were thrown over the speakers. So, equipment downstream of the DAC will matter.

[@benrosebery]

that is literally their purpose by definition

[@Coneman3]

@@benroseberyobviously. What I meant is to make the conversation as good as possible, so it doesn’t sound ‘digital’.

[@ozbloke36empty87]

SU-1 vs SMSL C200?

[@ForeverAnalog]

I don’t have the C200

[@jerrypowers7671]

Yup, a moot point.

[@ifeanyidede2106]

Another waste of time. Folks, don't let these reviewers drag you down the rabbit hole of dacs. Most dacs sound the same. Just buy what your budget can afford and move enjoy your music.

[@kongtzengchang4225]

I want you to talk about 800 VS 8,000.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Me too!

[@davidcarr2216]

No such thing as digital sheen - get some speakers which are frequenct flat ( preferably pro monitors). Rabbit hole BS guys. Which do you really think is the more accurate DAC here ? An old school R2R contraption or a modern chip based DAC ? Well, you put this DAC on, and it does this, and sounds like this and makes your Pink Floyd sound better. Ha .

[@Woofy-tm8si]

I bought ann SU-1 for shits and giggles and compared it to my Denafrips Pontus II DAC/Hermes DDC pair and the Pontus II/Hermes wiped the floor with the little SU-1, no surprise, there. What was interesting was how much better the SU-1 sounded downstream from the Hermes after the Hermes galvanically (using laser opto-couplers) isolated the datastream before beffering and reclocking feeding it to the SU-1. Of course the Hermes is 15x the price of the SU-1 but it shows how much better the little guy can sound if fed a less chaotic datastream. Also worth mentioning the SU-1 sounds even better when fed power from a quality linear power supply.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Great info, thank you for sharing! The SU-1 is on sale right now for $68!

[@12P14D22C]

I dont really get why theres so much talk about DACs. They have been solved for a decade by now ... just get quality pro audio dacs. they convert essentially flawlessly. Dont get shitty hifi dacs. Theres nothing in a dac that needs any tuning or any characteristic. Its ... straight forward. just convert the signal.

[@beccachannel1083]

Great Childers record

[@ForeverAnalog]

It's so good. He's playing Nashville on my birthday but I'm holding out for day of show tickets lol. Hoping to catch somebody off loading a pair for cheap.

[@AT-wl9yq]

I know videos like this are well meaning, but they do more harm than good, I'll point out the 2 major issues I see here and maybe some of you will agree, or maybe not. But the first issue I have is when you do price point analysis as your main point of selection, you'll loose just about every time. A price tag can't in any meaningful way, tell you how something is going to sound. You can take 2 $800 dac's, compare them to each other, and have the differences be just as big as the $80 dac. Its absolutely meaningless. There's no better example of this than the Denafrips dac he's using in the video, People go through all the trouble to get those things is because of the design, not price. They use a certain type of technology that only a few other brands use. The result is, it sounds very different than most other dacs. Some people like it, some don't. The important thing is, Denafrips customers don't buy that dac because its $800. They buy it because of how it sounds. Here's a random quote from one of the other posters. "Perhaps the real question would be: 'Is an $800 DAC 10 times better?"." That's a fail. The last thing you want is for someone to take that position after watching the video. Like I said above, the differences can be just as great with 2 $800 dacs. My other concern was, in the video he mentioned at least 2x that upgrading to a separate dac and transport will improve sound quality over using a regular CD player. This is the nicest way I can put it. That's complete BS. Separates guarantee nothing. That statement is due to lack of experience. And to be clear, I'm not calling him a liar. I'm sure he really believes what he's telling us. Separates can sound better, but unless you are talking about statement, cost no object designs, there are many well designed singe box players that sound just as good, if not better. In fact, once designers in the industry figured out that jitter was a big problem, the best way to avoid it was to get a singe box player. It took them years to get that issue worked out.

[@ForeverAnalog]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@ChasingTone666]

Absolute spot on

[@roybatty-]

Spend $800 and then listen to mp3.