A bad stage made better (Sunset Heights comparison)

[@jadoz12]

kzbin.info/aero/PLzirl0C3tcCQRpFz8lwCzwdATZcZ0VIn0 please watch, they need more views :3

[@GiannakidisNikolaos-b9h]

Ee mit freundlichen Grüssen ihr Team vom Bahnhof abholen kann dir gut vorstellen dass du kannst mich gerne für sie auf den beiden anderen Termine sind für die Info für die Info für die Info für die

[@louiswindsor7334]

The new one is like the most kick ass waterside in history the old one is like having an old lady spit on you

[@Aerrow42]

Specific, but I got you

[@mooganify]

What

[@jamburrito]

extra funny comparison given that act 2 does have a lot of water segments lmao

[@Masonia_]

Both sound good honestly

[@Hex_Hub_Plus]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@thelolmaster12]

“Honestly if it had more length then it could’ve gone hard” Exactly what we got yes

[@binkyboy448]

Length means nothing if there's no challenge.

[@Robert-ux9tf]

Weird, someone said that to me once, but not the way you think

[@deltamachine343]

That's like coughing baby versus hydrogen bomb.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

What?

[@deltamachine343]

@Hyp3rSonic Sonic Forces Sunset Heights: coughing baby Shadow Generations Sunset Heights: Hydrogen Bomb

[@AdamWright-t7w]

@@deltamachine343 I think they want to know the reference.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​​@@deltamachine343what are you referring to? It is a joke? If so, then from what? (Because I don't know what it is)

[@FutabaBiggestSimp]

Is like dark souls and jenshin impact vs WuWa.

[@ReapCykes]

Would you let Sonic fans enjoy Forces but with good level design? Black Doom: *Nah, I'd Radical Highway*

[@gameman5804]

And that’s my biggest issue with Sunset Heights in this game. You cannot tell me that they didn’t have a whole lot of material to work with like the War Theme, Infinite and his Illusions, even the OCs (one of the main selling points for Forces). For one, They should’ve kept the 3D/2D hybrid structure base Gens and Original Forces had. And secondly, Act 1 should’ve played normally and Act 2 should’ve been the distorted version.

[@sebastianmartinez5963]

​@@gameman5804 In fact, it would have been cooler if, instead of Black Doom, it was Inifinite who distorted the level. If Infinite was capable of warping reality enough to reverse gravity as seen in the Capital City level from Forces, why not do the same here?

[@MrElmo54321]

@@gameman5804I for one am happy to have fully fleshed out 3D levels and not the 75/25 2D/3D split

[@gameman5804]

@@MrElmo54321 I actually prefer the hybrid approach Base Gens. If Sunset Heights combined both acts, it’d be awesome.

[@comicscinemaothermedia9247]

​@@sebastianmartinez5963I don't know about that it'd be redundant for Infinite and Mephiles to play a role in the game

[@icantcomeupwithagooduserna2581]

Holy shit they gave it actual level design

[@Vior9]

they also made kingdom valley playable and more fun than it would have been if it was playable in 06. Thats two 06 stages they cooked with, that one and the one in sonic gens. I'm genuinely convinced they can make 06 actually fun if they remade it

[@Usagi33353]

@@Vior9 you should try out Project 06 made by ChaosX. The level design in 06 isn't bad, and the remake shows it

[@WhatISawJuly7th]

True but these are also boost levels while 06 is an Adventure style game. Theyd need to be redesigned to accomodate a particular playstyle ​@@Vior9

[@icantcomeupwithagooduserna2581]

@@WhatISawJuly7th Plus, Kingdom Valley is a well-designed level (the controls and physics of 06 just suck)

[@ORLY911]

@Vior9 the waterfall section in Kingdom Valley gave me PTSD of the mach section from the original. I have never retried the same level so many times before or after. It's so incredibly broken lol

[@0n1c420]

the new sunset heights is a testament to show what sonic team could’ve done if they didn’t hire inexperienced level designers.

[@clementrenaud4260]

If they had time.

[@0n1c420]

@ well both.

[@cisco2847]

I’d say if they weren’t short staffed as well cuz I’m pretty sure there was only 3 level designers for Sonic Forces and like 1 or 2 of them also worked on Lost World I’m pretty sure

[@Comkill117]

Forces is the only game in the series where “it’s just hold boost to win” is an actually valid criticism, so it’s great seeing its stage become a real level now. It’s still extremely linear, but the added combat and a couple alternate routes go a long way in improving it. The new version of the song also helps.

[@aderose]

The money Sega earned from the Movies and Frontiers is CLEARLY being used wisely to make Sonic games better now.

[@jadoz12]

@@aderose yup. Next game is gonna be even better, I bet. I'll be live streaming that

[@aderose]

@ if I had to guess the next game is probably gonna be a frontiers type of sequel but taking a lot of cues from Shadow Gens. Such as a fully interactive Hub world, power ups, challenges and side missions & collectables. Whenever that comes out.

[@cornbreadpapi]

You know the level is trash if it’s over before the song even has a chance to loop. 😂😂

[@milesprower6110]

There's a difference between: - Making a level with a destroyed city theme as the background... & - Making a stage of a city under destruction.

[@sebastianmartinez5963]

I don't get it

[@Raspthewolf]

Essentially he's saying forces level was more of a backdrop and in shadow gens you are playing through the backdrop with you actively running through the destruction as it's happening. With giant robots hurling debris at you and the set piece of them taking shots at you.

[@sebastianmartinez5963]

​@@Raspthewolf You are saying that in Shadow Generations you are playing through the backdrop with you actively running through the destruction as it's happening, but... Isn't it exactly the same? In both games, the stage of a city at war is only used to give the level a visually striking appearence, the only notable difference in both levels is that one is longer than the other (Enough so that one can appreciate it a little more the war stage). I say this because, honestly... the only time where you really interact with the war stage is when the Death Egg Sentinels throwing rocks at you, but aside from utilizing them for one decent shortcut, they don't do anything. Even the cinematic sequence of the Death Egg Sentinels attacking you could have been a Quick Time Event section or make the underground section was an alternate path instead of being part of the main path. I like Act 1 Sunset Heights from Shadow Generations but I feel like they could have taken better advantage of the war theme or even used Infinite's illusions, which would have also been great to see

[@Premium-s8b]

@@sebastianmartinez5963no. He said the forces one felt like a backdrop

[@randi_stress]

THE MOTION BLUR IS EVERYTHING TO ME

[@sonicrunn3r895]

I think what's neat about SXSG Sunset Heights is that it still “feels” like the stage. Like the opening still has the same beats, the level is still built on a sort of “running through tight destroyed streets” sort of linearity, and a few recognisable areas show their heads (such as the afformentioned opening, the big jump, the open circular part leading up to a right turn setpiece (though this time it's a pulley zipline instead of a loop) and even a destroyed Red Gate Bridge), but it's noticeably expanded with new routes, actual level design and platforming and the Death Egg Robots actually contributing to the level!!! Not to mention the entirely new sections. It's not a perfect stage, but it's so fun to play

[@CherryMellow-y2r]

Bro tried to go hard in Sunset SxSG but failed all shortcuts 😂😂 its better for sure tho

[@jadoz12]

I tried bro ive done the Chaos Control one before but somehow i missed it 😢

[@EldritchSama]

Is that level design!? In my Sonic Forces level!?

[@OmarRodriguez-pj3qy]

And mind you, that run of the new one is pretty bare in terms of all the things you can actually do in the level not to say it was a bad run, you did perfectly fine. But like you that part where you had to stop because of the rotating walls of spikes getting in the way? If you use chaos control correctly ahead of time, you can have it freeze at an angle that won’t obstruct you, so you don’t have to accommodate to it. Also that part where it’s a long hallway with the giant robots throwing boulders at you; time it right and you can use chaos control and homing attack the boulders that are stopped in place to reach a higher path. The new level is objectively better even without taking full advantage of things like that. Goes to show how great and thought out the level design is. Chaos Control is hands down one of the best mechanics they ever made. It’s always fantastic when you have a skill that literally CHANGES the game, changes how you interact with things. Homing Attack makes your enemies stepping stones to your goal. Chaos Control makes their own attacks stepping stones as well. So good. Not to mention the fact that you get the energy from defeated enemies after the 5 seconds expires so if you do it right, you can chain Chaos Control to save that much more time. It’s an ultimate mechanic.

[@jadoz12]

@@OmarRodriguez-pj3qy that's a lot of words. Too bad I'm not reading all em

[@jadoz12]

All jokes aside, I did this on a random Sunday afternoon. I had a better gameplay clip than that, but I lost it and didn't have time to make it any better. Never waste your time typing that long of a paragraph just to correct a mistake or two.

[@OmarRodriguez-pj3qy]

@@jadoz12 I wasn’t trying to criticize actually. What I’m saying is that the level design of Shadow Gens is still substantially more layered than Forces even when you don’t take full advantage of the skill set. In forces, there isn’t inherently much you can do in the way of accessing alternate paths or making better actions because it’s extremely straightforward. Meanwhile, Shadow Gens is still better even if you don’t take advantage your available skills like teleporting and Chaos Control. Within the first few seconds, you can see an alternate path up above in Gens just before the downward slope that isn’t there in Forces, immediately granting more variety. My point wasn’t that it was a bad run, I was just simply adding onto the main point of the video. It really is a bad level made better. Sorry about that misunderstanding.

[@ibofandubs2183]

The funny thing about sunset heights is that it was supposed to be the first stage on forces But ended being like in the middle because of two things: Sega messed the profit yet again and wanted a family friendly difficulty And the fans voice who had to much influence on forces

[@ibofandubs2183]

The second reason is the same that applies for Shadow generations And for the better even if sonic team didn’t need to fix sunset heights, they did their best to knock it out of the park True respect.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

Sonic Fans making shit up again 😂

[@lehashura490]

Nice argument senator, but why don't you back it up with a source?

[@ibofandubs2183]

@@lehashura490 "I asked your mom and she said Yes" -Probably the senator

[@lehashura490]

@@ibofandubs2183 Data not found, please insert the right CD

[@thelyingsprite2056]

My ONLY complaint with Shadow Generations, is there's not enough levels.

[@math3us420]

sunset heights is so beyond saving that they had to add a whole underground area

[@SupremeSR]

Shadow dodging those behemoths with that graceful twirl is just too badass. 😍

[@jamainegardner4193]

The only downgrade IMO is removing the zipline through the building.

[@Bulzeeb15]

For me its the fact that Shadow Gen's version is so much more dynamic with the visuals and set pieces. In one level it goes from: - Neighborhoods that was the key theme of the stage - Geysers leading to the underside of an overpass with bottomless pits - Neighborhoods Pt 2 that ends with the large rotating spike wall that can be frozen with chaos control - Big robot chucking rocks which, again, can be frozen to reach the higher path - More debris falling but crossing a large bridge - Shadow's cinematic of dodging the robots and falling into the underground water treatment facility - The facility is crawling with Black Arms as a teaser before the next Radical Highway hallucination

[@Mask0fFate]

Say what you want about Forces, but I genuinely loved the music, and quite frankly, I enjoyed the track that played for Sunset Heights - both the original and the remix for Generations.

[@jadoz12]

You don't even need to say that, the soundtrack is always good (ignoring Sonic Chronicles and Sonic 4)

[@Mask0fFate]

@@jadoz12 I honestly don’t hate all the tracks from Sonic 4 (or at least, I like the tracks for Metal Sonic’s boss fight and the music for Act 1 of the Death Egg Mark II), but as for Chronicles… Yeah, I’ve heard a bit of that game’s “music”, and it doesn’t sound good.

[@jadoz12]

@Mask0fFate Sorry I specifically meant episode 1

[@Mask0fFate]

@ It’s all good!

[@dangerousdoings8066]

my only complaint of shadow generations is there isn’t those first 9 seconds of just going forward and almost cinematically seeing the destruction yourself without any automation before getting right into boosting shadow generations just skips right to the gameplay especially with how you’re stopped immediately by a wall (or the loop shortcut) which is in contrast to stuff like base gens where rooftop run still has that beginning boost section or speed highway has that big long stretch downwards, or in shadow gens with radical highway starting off the same (as long as you take the correct path)

[@انس-ض6ي]

People who say Sonic Forces' level design is good, I doubt they know how to design a good level.

[@MartAlien]

The amount of hype i had when i realized i just started Sunset Heights in sxsg had no sense. Peak

[@tedscheett9420]

What I honestly can't stand about the Forces version is how the music changes when you boost. I know that's probably every stage, but it's yet another reason to like Shadow Generations.

[@uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweug6314]

Damn, the Forces version is even worse than I remembered. Look at the footage and think about the inputs requiered, aside from 3 spike traps that you need to jump over and an optional 5 second platforming section, the rest of the level is nothing but holding boost or mashing jump.

[@pikasome2585]

Shadow Generations is like what they wanted Sunset Heights to be

[@saberspriteanimator6385]

Sunset Heights (Forces): easy Sunset Heights (Shadow Generations): challenging but awesome

[@mio3199]

im happy they remove the boost filter to the ost

[@Natboy129]

Wow its almost as if you can do a lot conceptually for a thrilling level with a city turned warzone. Who'd have thought?

[@Starduster_Angeldawn]

I hope Forces gets a remaster and the levels feel intense like this

[@frogizin]

Gotta love how in shadow generations the music doesn't get low quality when you boost

[@jadoz12]

Stop mentioning the fact that I missed every single one of the alternate paths! I recorded this on a random Sunday afternoon with little to no time to spare to both record and edit.

[@hereitcomestheatrain]

give forces a chance sega

[@carhidu_8905]

They could transform dash simulator into peek gameplay

[@jadoz12]

@@carhidu_8905 fr

[@nathanmurdoch5253]

While I agree that Shadow Generations did it better. I wouldn't call the original Sunset Heights bad. Like most of Forces it was just a mix of forgettable crossed with missed opportunity.

[@Charizardslash]

Forces Sunset Heights is better for the sole fact that it's in SUNSET rather than the day in Act 1 and cloudy weather in Act 2 of Shadow's levels

[@theconservativeknight1883]

It is still a straight fucking line in both versions.

[@gamerrrdude4405]

It’s almost like he stayed on the main path in the Shadow Generations version

[@vaicupcakes]

I'm ignorant, I've only played SA 2 and now Shadow Generations lol, but why do you people dont like Sunset Heights from Forces? :0 Genuine question, as I'm not an expert on Sonic level designs

[@jadoz12]

@@vaicupcakes Every single level in Forces mostly consisted of straight lines. The game basically plays itself

[@vaicupcakes]

@@jadoz12 Ohh true, I can see that on your gameplay, I only spotted like two alternate routes on Forces, while SG is full of them

[@agentclank8183]

@@jadoz12 Also length. Beating a stage in 1-2 minutes with no "speed strats" is wild. By the time you finished the forces level, you just got to the robot set piece in shadow generations.

[@Squorzel]

@@jadoz12yeah the best part of that original level was the music

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@agentclank8183my best time on Sunset Heights is 54 seconds! (The OG version. I dont have Sonic X Shadow Generations)

[@uriattias675]

Same thing with sonic 2 oil ocean vs sonic mania oil ocean

[@martinaguiluz4063]

But... I like Sunset Heights in Forces😔. It's the most memorable stage in the entire game

[@ichadpromax]

Sunset Heights was never a bad stage. You were just bad at Forces

[@nickr3526]

Sunset Heights is still imo the weakest level in Shadow Generations. For me the Doom part ruined it. It was a good section but it cut the actual stage short.

[@MrTragedious986]

I mean for me the weakest stage was Rail Canyon since it’s all on rails.

[@LeaveMeAloneFBI]

The level still has the exact same problem as the original. It's just a complete narrow straight line with barely any deviation or alternate paths to explore. Hell, the radical highway section could've been flat out replaced with infinite using the phantom ruby to warp the level into different sections/versions of sunset Heights. Or spawning multiple more giant death egg robots and the rest of the stage being about destroying them while dodging their incoming attacks. This level absolutely sucks compared to Space colony ark, rail canyon, Kingdom valley, radical highway, and chaos island. Also personally, I hate the underground section. The entire point of the stage was to traverse through a city that's in the middle of a war and taking in the destruction and chaos of the scene folding around you, adding to the sense of urgency and seriousness of the situation. Going underground where you can't see any of that ruins the theme/point of the stage.

[@6DADADA]

Absolutely hate the boost sound effect on the music

[@mooganify]

No radical highway lol

[@jadoz12]

@@mooganify Radical Highway part doesn't count when you're trying to compare Sunset Heights.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

A boring stage made better

[@Serial_Designation_X-100S]

Top 10 worst zones

[@jmmcguire8589]

I’m love with the version Force in 2017 & Generation Remastered 2024, when Sonic & Shadow was running around the Town’s over the big robot’s with Eggman For a War’s of Force looks better) i can’t wait to get it until Christmas next week & next I get it dragon ball sparking zero for my birthday

[@3headedyorkee324]

Trying to read this is about the same feeling as trying to pronounce "Worcestershire sauce".

[@jmmcguire8589]

@ true!!!

[@anothergamer112]

I feel like Shadow Generations was what Sonic Team wanted to do with Forces, but couldnt because SEGA hemorrhaged too much money from Boom, so they gave them a budget of 5 dollars and a Subway coupon.

[@hotrod_hornet]

Please don't yell at me. But.. I honestly think Sunset Heights from Forces (atleast in the first half) has a much better *flow* than Shadow Generations. The way the level just drops off and then sends you to a very blocky platforming segment just isn't as satisfying as the original, even if it leads to a longer level time.

[@jadoz12]

@@hotrod_hornet honestly kinda valid, I respect that

[@Terminal_Apotos]

I think the new stage is kind of overrated. Sure it’s better just from the basis of requiring more input from the player and being longer in length but it’s nothing crazy. Feels like one of those forces mods that sprinkle a bunch of random shit inside long hallways.

[@MechaKnuckles]

It feels like a low-tier SA2 level. Still very linear and boxed in, but allows for a bit more freedom overall, and requires a little more precision.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

@@MechaKnuckles Yeah that’s a pretty good way of describing it, only this is missing the extra depth mechanics like Rail Grinding had so it’s even more bland.

[@MechaKnuckles]

@@Terminal_Apotos Exactly. In my opinion, Rail Canyon also kinda sucked in this game. The only thing saving it was the Doom Diversion and the Chaos Control pathways.

[@kaosagamerreal]

@@Terminal_Apotos honestly it doesn't need to be crazy, making a level that actually embraces the war-torn aesthetic and explores areas that weren't shown a lot in the original does enough to be a massive improvement the original sunset heights was just a normal level with a war background, but the version in shadow gens brings the war to the level

[@Terminal_Apotos]

@ Really the only war aspect it does add are the Death Egg Sentinels throwing rocks at you but aside from utilizing them for one decent shortcut they don’t do anything.

[@yrooxrksvi7142]

I hardly see an improvement, they simply removed the 2D and stretched it out a bit. It's still just as boringly flat as the original.

[@انس-ض6ي]

No.

[@yrooxrksvi7142]

@انس-ض6ي That's not an argument

[@انس-ض6ي]

@@yrooxrksvi7142 still no. Lol

[@yrooxrksvi7142]

@@انس-ض6ي Still fail to justify it, so cope lmfao

[@LeaveMeAloneFBI]

Freaking real. Obviously it's an improvement, but that is not a high bar. The level still has the exact same problem as the original. It's just a complete narrow straight line with barely any deviation or alternate paths to explore. Hell, the radical highway section could've been flat out replaced with infinite using the phantom ruby to warp the level into different sections/versions of sunset Heights. Or spawning multiple more giant death egg robots and the rest of the stage being about destroying them while dodging their incoming attacks. This level absolutely sucks compared to Space colony ark, rail canyon, Kingdom valley, radical highway, and chaos island. Also personally, I hate the underground section. The entire point of the stage was to traverse through a city that's in the middle of a war and taking in the destruction and chaos of the scene folding around you, adding to the sense of urgency and seriousness of the situation. Going underground where you can't see any of that ruins the theme/point of the stage.

[@Sonicfan640]

A shame you took none of the alternate routes in the Shadow Generations version.

[@jadoz12]

I tried to but failed sorry

[@Mobileconcequences]

Bro didn’t pick the skip at the start

[@AquaVerve]

sunset heights wasn't bad in forces....

[@عمك-ك5ك]

it was

[@انس-ض6ي]

It was

[@marguya4643]

Sunset Heights in Forces bad in what way? Stage length? Outside of the sewer section and Radical Highway encounter, I think the original was better.

[@rang2111]

Cuz like u get to stop time and homing attack on the death egg robot debris like sphew sphew sphew and it's like so cool

[@jadoz12]

Most Forces levels have you running in a straight line, this level is no different. Shadow Generations fixes that.

[@akdreamer6497]

Literally 0 alternate routes. Just hold forward to win. You alright bud?

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​​​@@akdreamer6497weird comment. You don't know if they think that the level is good or not. They just think that the original stage is better. Unless they actually say that the original stage is good, then you can't claim that

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I respect your opinion

[@LuisXRivas]

Your run on the shadow gens missed a lot of alternate paths sadly