A Better Forehand Loop and Why

[@jessemorales]

Oscar Wagner is an OG! So happy to see someone else out there using his method! He's the truth.

[@topspintennis]

Jesse, he is one of the BEST instructors of all time. I'm glad you enjoyed the content! JF

[@Hi-techtenniscom]

Nice observations. My favorite former player, Olivier Rochus, did this exactly. At the top of the take back strings to the side and racket head in front of the hand. I would also add that this loop backswing uses gravity to effortlessly start the swing, leading to a rhythmic stroke. If you take the racket straight back you are not going to get that relaxed fluid loop. Great video on the loop!

[@brodieboy3]

the forward cocked racket head is pretty much all about increased lag & snap that's available as you fire your hips/ unwind your core and start the forward swing path with your hand. If you've got a loose arm/ wrist - your racket head naturally lags behind and than snaps thru the contact point. The more the snap back - the faster the racket head is accelerating thru the contact point without having to do anything else with your body/ arm swing to get additional power. Force = mass x acceleration. You want max acceleration at contact and the max force will be at the racket head tip because that's the part that's moving fastest (centrifugal force). Sure lots of players are still trying to get even more power by swinging hard, over rotating and lunging, jumping or just stepping thru/ into the court on contact, but when you watch the pros they are actually very much 'on-balance' throughout the swing and especially at contact (to the extent possible based on the shot hit by the opponent) and it's immediately after contact that they rotate the core or continue forward into the court, but it's a split second later and dictated by the swing path. The 'finish' doesn't dictate the swing-path it's the swing-path that dictates the finish - which obviously varies depending on the shot that you are responding to and your ability to respond to same. BTW - you can get plenty of lag & snap without a loop on balls that are waist high or lower if you have some waggle on your takeback. As you note you can/ should vary your wind up a bit depending on the incoming ball - though the core rotation is always something you want to do as the 1st step to be able to unwind the core as you start your swing. It's just that you can go bigger with the core rotation & windup when you have more time/ space.

[@topspintennis]

Great stuff. I'm a fan of physics and the formula for Force. Don't forget that most players don't add weight to their racquets like the pros do. My racquet is heavily leaded up; that's why I am able to impart a descent amount of force to the ball even though I am 5'8" and weigh about 155 lbs. Thanks for your comment! JF

[@jerome_morrow]

Collisions are not about force but changes in momentum.

[@stevenmckelvey80]

Great insight you won't hear elsewhere. TST

[@topspintennis]

Wow Steven, thanks for your comment. I really appreciate this, enjoy your day! JF

[@LetsBuildThatApp]

Different strokes for different folks, I like this new loop style a lot.

[@topspintennis]

I'm glad you enjoyed it! JF

[@manuelleon4006]

Great! Thanks!

[@PapayBmet]

Left hand also carries some load in the prep raising the racket at higher elevation (forehand side shoulder raised up slightly)like a samurai stance tracking and pointing almost at the target, and then loop back to harness gravity into the sword which then whips the ball at contact.

[@jean-baptistehenard8444]

Hi, thanks, videos are so good.

[@natenmina]

The main point you are missing in this analysis is the position of the elbow. Thiem is taking his racket back by getting his elbow out of the way first, like Pete Sampras used to do. He has also shortened his loop recently. By taking the elbow out of the way tends to create a bigger loop vs. a Federer for instance, who has a more compact loop. Federer tends to keep his elbow closer to his body but generate incredible power with his wrist snap and timing.

[@topspintennis]

Good point about the elbow and yes I agree; Thiem has shortened his loop. It was out of necessity, the game is getting faster and he didn't have the time on the faster surfaces. Thanks for your comment! JF

[@topspin1715]

I like how you give variations on the take back and using pro players as an example with video showing their takeback in the process. What is your opinion the "next gen forehand takeback", specifically the part where from racket is pointing to the side fence (Djokovic and Thiem) to then inverting the racket and pointing it to the back fence for example, Sinner, Thiem, Khachanov, Tiafoe, and so on.

[@matyverona9407]

Good video, there are many types of loops nowadays

[@topspintennis]

Yes, you are so true! It just shoes you different techniques can all have success! JF

[@vladimirvidov6202]

Thank you very much very professional and gnupg1 while people things game very very much,,,

[@topspintennis]

Thank you Vladimir, I'm glad you are enjoying the tennis tips! JF

[@narsimha1089]

Great video.. is forehand loop is continues?Also racquet head lag is caused by take back of arm or hip and shoulder turn?when I watch Simon a Haley it looks like she takes her dominant hand back explicitly as opposed hip or shoulder turn

[@topspintennis]

Sagar, a little bit of both. I like less takeback for better lag. The hips and shoulders definitely assist in the lag. Simona does take her arm/hand back more so that so of the men but she does use her hips and shoulders for rotation and lag. Thanks for your comment! JF

[@ruipedro4195]

Hi John, thanks for your video. For me, when I play tournaments or represent my club team, what is difficult is to plan my day for a lot of things to do. Program my day to get up, eat, digest, warm up, play competitive tennis and recover. I have so much to do, that I do not do what is important. I happened to have three matches in one day and it was not easy to plan my day and prepare to play the semi-finals the next morning. I hope this gives you some suggestions for a new video, which can help a lot of people. Thanks.

[@topspintennis]

Rui, let me think this over. There is a lot to prepare for before a tournament, especially if you are playing 3 matches in one day. Recovery is essential. Let me think this over. Thanks for your comment! JF

[@Better_Call_Raul]

Let's assume the incoming ball is waist high and is a neutral rally ball and we have time for the larger loop. (1) Do we want to drop on "edge" like Agassi or drop with strings facing down like Rafa? (2) For neutral rally balls, we must choose and practice one of those two loop styles, correct? Don't think I have seen a pro use both loop styles for a neutral rally ball.

[@topspintennis]

Raul, great question. I personally "close" my racquet face (strings to the ground) when I have more time. On return of serve I usually have a more "compact" swing (less loop) and keep the racquet on edge. I've seen Federer do this on his forehand return of serve. The loop can vary in many ways. It really comes down to swing preference, intent and the incoming ball. Someone like Del Potro keeps his racquet (on edge) and doesn't close the string bed like Federer. I hope this helps. JF

[@Better_Call_Raul]

@@topspintennis Thanks for response. I wish to confirm for baseline neutral rally balls, in the comfortable strike zone, where we have time to set up. In this case, we need to pick one style (DelPotro Edge Drop vs Federer Closed Drop) and then constantly practice that style... I am thinking it is too difficult to use both styles for neutral rally balls; must choose one as your basic bread and butter rally ball...The possible downside with Federer Closed style is that racquet face is changing whereas Delpo Edge style, the racquet face is set earlier in the forward swing and may result in less mishits for typical Adult 40 year old 4.0 player... Each older Adult player must experiment and see which style works for them.

[@bournejason66]

@@Better_Call_Raul pick the one that’s most natural to you.

[@FairwayJack]

good stuff

[@topspintennis]

Thank you Fairway Jack! JF

[@patrikberglund5717]

Great video

[@topspintennis]

Thanks again Patrik! JF

[@frankg846]

Are you a new coach here, just wondering... i have watched most of all KZbin tennis coach but just bumped into your video, got my sub immediately, your explanation are crystal clear, but one funny question, do you have to stick out your ring and picky finger on your non hitting arm when hitting your forehand like Thiem, lol.

[@topspintennis]

Welcome aboard! I have actually been on KZbin since 2008 but only recently began publishing videos again on a regular basis. That is too funny, I didn't realize I had something in common with Thiem! Thanks for your comment and support! JF

[@ginomarone8831]

Great explanation about the loop! (Especially when dealing with high balls) The issue my kid is dealing with has to do with the loop itself. She takes the racquet back exactly the way you show, (head pointing forward) however her loop is more like a sideways letter-L. It just goes straight down and pauses there for a fraction of a sec, then reaccelerates. Huge power but this pause causes extra tweak on her wrist and sometimes she can be late to the ball Bc of this. So the million dollar question is: how do we “unlearn” this bad habit and how do I retract the proper loop or C or what ever people call it? Open to suggestions. Thank you!

[@topspintennis]

Gino, thanks for your comment. I believe I understand what you mean by the sideways "L". I'm not a fan of the racquet stopping, she may be quick with her initial take back causing her to pause as the racquet drops. I would have to see her swing to truly diagnose the problem. JF

[@ginomarone8831]

@@topspintennis been 3 weeks since my comment and Bc she’s evolving fast, this issue is “almost” fixed: no more pause on the takeback at the bottom (of the loop. In her case the loop was square, like a sideways L.) The fix for her was to create a new “timer” in the takeback. Instead of dropping low and waiting there, now she keeps the racquet shoulder high and depending on the speed of the incoming ball, she adjusts (slows down or accelerates) executing a true C (rounded off) loop (instead of a square drop). Consistency is way up now, with nice net clearance and topspin. By the way, and this is just me thinking out loud: the issues with the squared off sideways L shape take back had to do with “Pet the dog” that used to be so popular a few years back (2-3 yrs ago) I believe, teaching the “pet the dog” technique could inadvertently cause all sorts of issues with kids that will take huge amount of efforts to undo down the road. All imo and thanks again!

[@sebastiansantos5561]

Is the big loop gonna dissapear because of the increase of the speed in the game¿? What's your opinion. Loops like Shapovalov, Ruud; loops that the hand that hold the raquet at the take back are at the same high of the shoulder or higher

[@topspintennis]

I believe so, unless a person were to prepare earlier which I don't necessarily like either. Great question! JF

[@sebastiansantos5561]

@@topspintennis others tell me that no

[@narsimha1089]

Hi John, after racquet take back is there any little wait before swinging?

[@topspintennis]

🔥Great question. No, the racquet should not stop at any point; it is a continuous motion. This is where timing and tons of reps will assist with the loop. Thanks for your question, I will do a video on this exact question and give you credit! JF

[@narsimha1089]

@@topspintennis thank you John.. let me add one point here regarding the question… the entire forehand starting from unit turn is one continuous loop or after unit turn there is there any small pause? We always likes your videos… great help!!!

[@bournejason66]

Does Pete Sampras use loops as well? Great video btw!

[@topspintennis]

Sampras does utilize a loop but his take back is initiated differently. He begins by leading with elbow high (similar to Lendl.) Here is a link to some footage - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZTWmp6Zeax2qrc Thanks! JF

[@bournejason66]

Topspin Tennis thanks. My follow up question is : is lag a new thing? Does Sampras or Lendl use lag too?

[@brodieboy3]

@@bournejason66 Yes - you have eyes - it's clear from the video. If you don't see it it's because you don't understand the concept of lag. BTW - its lag and snap that creates power & spin not just lag. Lag happens naturally as you start moving your hand forward and the racket & racket head naturally trails behind, but centrifugal force (acceleration at the tip) causes the racket head to catch up and snap thru at the the contact point - which should be where force is maximized with minimal effort. Force = mass x acceleration. Think a whip, wet towel or lasso on a rope. A whip or wet towel snaps at the point where the tip (which lagged behind) snaps back and thru at the contact point. What you are trying to do with your stroke is 'crack the whip' in a controlled fashion - to create power/ spin at contact as your racket head (which has lagged behind) snaps back & thru at contact.- which should be where you have max racket head acceleration & therefore max power - again with less effort by taking advantage of the physics of the lag & snap action. Your arm movement and core rotation is meant to maximize the lag & snap. Think a pitcher vs. a shot putter. It's the whole kinetic chain thing meant to maximize not forward thrust of the body, but max Force at the racket head which is created by the acceleration of the racket head as it naturally snaps back & thru at contact & then decelerates. Think a bow - that bends back and then snaps back. Or a spring that's compressed and snaps back. It's all the same concept.

[@Better_Call_Raul]

Does Delpotro have a lag? The other KZbin instructor "two minute tennis" says that he does not teach the lag forehand to rec players. He says he teaches the Delpo forehand and claims Delpo is not an example of lag forehand.

[@poida007]

Good observations John, but this “magic move” is not recommended for rec players, it’s a highly advanced move for highly advanced players. Most rec players struggle with even a small loop because they don’t have enough experience and skill to time the hit consistently to rally. This is why pickle ball is rapidly drawing tennis players who find tennis far too difficult and frustrating to learn, especially the complex and expensive instruction often associated with tennis along with the long learning curve. More and more seniors, over 50 players are abandoning tennis as their mobility diminishes. Tennis (especially singles) is a horrible game if you can’t consistently cover the court to get to the ball on time. I’ve noticed the USTA promoting modified balls and courts for seniors. But I’ve also noticed more and more tennis clubs converting tennis courts to pickle ball. Much easier and more fun for rec players. The numbers don’t lie. Check out the pics on the Riggs website below. The Bobby Riggs Racket and Paddle Club is located in beautiful Encinitas, California. www.bobbyriggs.net/about Riggs is a 3 tennis court and 14 dedicated pickleball court facility with a view of the Pacific Ocean. I remember not that long ago it was 10 tennis courts! Then 7, then 5, and now 3.

[@topspintennis]

You could be correct. I am a big proponent of Pickleball. It's been a great way to get people back on the courts. Tennis is definitely a step up on the learning and athletic gradient. These tips I feel are explained in a simple, straight forward manner. Could a 50+ year old do them. My answer is YES, I am 50 years of age:) That was a joke. Thanks for your comment! JF

[@poida007]

@@topspintennis John, time for you to transition to making pickleball videos and increase your subscriber base big time!💡

[@architennis]

@@poida007 Boo, pickelball! Long live tennis!! (I'm 62 and still playing singles, though I'm damn slow to drop shots.)

[@poida007]

@@architennis Hey Doug, enjoy it while you can. Pickleball is taking over for the over 50 crowd. Tennis is a horrible game when you can't get to the ball.

[@architennis]

@@poida007 If I get too slow I'll switch to doubles. Problem solved! And if I get too slow for doubles I'll move on to table tennis (not that there's no movement in competitive table tennis, but less than tennis). Each to their own though!

[@dg2973]

Thiem change his loop, this footage is his old forehand, he is shortened his backswing in last couple of months or so..

[@FrozenShade]

Yes, he started making changes to his forehand nearly a year ago. What are your thoughts on this John? kzbin.info/www/bejne/gamQfmZtZadrmJY

[@chtomlin]

Why not the swivel? like Fed at 4:43.

[@topspintennis]

Chuck, tell me more about the swivel! JF

[@chtomlin]

@@topspintennis Notice how the racket can spin around it's center of mass as the hand starts to "lag" the racket into the slot. This 'swivel' around center of mass gives an extremely responsive move to contact that faces very little resistance from inertia, allowing for a near instantaneous move to the slot where he can gain alignment to the contact point via dragging up thru the slot.

[@satgill830]

Hi John new to your site and lessons. I’ve been working on more of a loop but struggling when pressed for time. Will try the strings facing side technique. Any drills you might recommend or just shadow swings?

[@topspintennis]

Sat, the shadow strings will work. All balls that come faster make sure you are tracking with your hands in front, you will actually take less of a backswing and the technique will change. All neutral to offensive shots you should have more time to take a unit turn and incorporate a full loop. JF

[@peteryun8929]

The clips you referenced are pretty dated. The top guys have since shortened their take back a lot. Most notably, Federer and Novak.

[@topspintennis]

Peter, you are correct. Thiem has definitely shortened up his swing, especially on the grass and hard courts. Thanks! JF

[@zbigbee2760]

Don't you think Del Potro's high loop, short backswing looks better and feels more powerful than Thiem's? kzbin.info/www/bejne/poqZoGijaM-FnNU

[@topspintennis]

I personally feel I can duplicate Del Potro's swing easier. I like the Thiem/Osaka loop but I feel I can get more power off of Del Potro's swing. Thanks for your comment! JF

[@ifeanyiikpegbu6465]

Short backswing helps with timing the ball better

[@sk-wh6bx]

This dude explanation is not very good

[@topspintennis]

Sorry you think so. Let me know how I can improve; I'm always open to suggestions! JF

[@ClaudioPrado-k4f]

That is wrong cause the bigger the loop the less control, with a shorter backswing the body counts.

[@TeamTennisfr]

Sorry but of course you can be late with that form of preparation

[@topspintennis]

More specific please. What part of video are you talking about. Thanks for your comment! JF

[@direwolf525]

That is why dominic thiem ruined his wrist for taking back like that