A Challenge with Cuiv & Tips for Walking Noise

Subscribe to Cuiv here: / cuivthelazygeek
=============================
Supporting this channel:
=============================
◦ I'm on Patreon: / nebulaphotos
◦ One-time donations: paypal.me/nebu...
◦ Shopping for astrophotography gear, you can use my affiliate links:
High Point Scientific: tinyurl.com/hi...
OPT: bit.ly/31XDk9d
Agena Astro: tinyurl.com/ag...
Amazon: amzn.to/31rYb56
Modification service at Astrogear.net: www.astrogear....
◦ You can use my referral code when buying subscriptions to Astrobin:
New accounts- www.astrobin.com/accounts/register/?r=NEBULAPHOTOS
Existing accounts- Use Promo Code: NEBULAPHOTOS
=============================
Social:
=============================
Twitter: @nebulaphotos
Instagram: @nebulaphotosdotcom
Astrobin: www.astrobin.c...
=============================
Affiliate programs disclosure:
=============================
I am a member of the High Point Scientific, Astrobin, OPT, AgenaAstro, eBay, and Amazon affiliate programs. Product links in my video descriptions are typically affiliate links, which means, at no extra cost to you, I will make a commission if you click them and purchase something. I also have working relationships with the following companies/brands to receive products to test: High Point Scientific, QHYCCD, Venus Optics, Astrogear.net, Night Sky Camera, Hunt's Photo & Video. I do not review products for money and any brand deals will be fully disclosed. If you have any questions about any of this, please get in touch.

[@fazergazer]

This is historic in the annals of KZbin Astrophotography! Love both images. Alot of great information and pearls of wisdom here!

[@HelenasAstrophotography]

Awesome video Nico and Cuiv! What stunning results and such an interesting comparison.

[@Wheeljack678]

I wrote this on Cuivs video as well. I absolutely love watching these collabs / friendly competitions amongst fellow content creators in astrophotography. I feel they really help bring the community together around this awesome, wonderful (but at times oh' so frustrating) hobby. Both of your images are stunning. I learned the hard way what walking noise is after a near perfect 5-hour session on Markarians Chain resulted in red-brownish walking noise across the entire image. I now dither...

[@heavyjohnny]

I started applying silicone lube to all of my adapter threads. It’s common practice for underwater cameras. I have not had binding issues since. Also I never tighten past finger tight.

[@davidjiannotti1537]

It's the tempature change between when u put on and try to take off. Metal especially aluminum contracts when gets cold. Warm it up and it will break lose

[@GalaxyArtMedia]

Nice video guys! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

[@stevekuzmic3911]

2 awesome images from 2 of my favourite channels. 1 off my favourite targets.

[@achernarpolis8842]

Just captured the Pleiades for the first time last night, thanks for the tips!

[@woody5109]

Great images guys, love the star spikes, guess I’m just a fan of that look?

[@southernexposure123]

Really nice challenge and it went well for both of you. Thanks for the tips on walking noise. My cure for stuck tubes. I've had stuck extension tubes and after giving up on getting them apart several times I finally got them separated by freezing and using channel lock pliers with the tubes wrapped with rags. The trick is to carefully apply just enough pressure to the pliers to get the required grip without smashing the tubes out of round. What works to keep mine from sticking again is a miniscule drop of 3 in 1 oil on the male threads. I apply just enough oil to go all the way around the threads of one tube. I use that much machine oil on each male tube thread of the set. After applying the oil and screwing the sections together I put tissue paper inside the set so the oil doesn't migrate to places it's unwanted. After discovering the oil works I put oil on the threads of each new tube set as soon as I unbox the set. For me it seems that the tube section that always sticks is the shortest one of the group. Clear Skies.

[@rickbattle5706]

Very cool and informational. Thanks.

[@Xion-Rotti]

Knowing when to give up on an A is GREAT advice. I got one of my best images the other night by giving up on guiding and just going for it unguided and tracked.

[@alandyer910]

Excellent comparison. And I’m glad to see someone finally demonstrate that the major source of walking noise is drift due to polar alignment being off. That’ll show up more the closer targets are to the celestial pole. The other factor is using an inherently noisy camera that does not have an ISO invariant sensor, so it can’t tolerate lots of underexposure and stretching without revealing artifacts like pattern noise. That’s true of most Canon DSLRs, especially the low end cropped frame models many people use, usually by underexposing frames, then wonder why there’s so much noise. But great results from the both of you. Well done! And yes, I’ve had adapters with ASKAR astrographs seize together as well. I think there are photo filter wrenches available that are thinner and might work, ones made for removing seized lens filters. Cheers!

[@avt_astro206]

Awesome Video Nico!! Like the Images. A Lot of Good information!

[@oasisrides8348]

May sound a bit odd but something that works fantastic for needing grip anything like the spacers in this case or things like really stuck jars and whatnot, is a rubber medical tourniquet (like used when they draw blood for labs). They are very stretchy and very grippy. I always keep one around in my bag and whatnot just because they have came in handy in so many different ways lol. Typically if you ever go in to your annual check in or anything when they draw labwork they will just give you the tourniquet they used on you if you ask (since they will throw it away anyway as they are single use in hospitals for sanitary reasons)

[@peterlaubscher3989]

Well done, Gentlemen - this was very interesting and I learnt a lot from both of you. Great images. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us. Great images.

[@justindame]

FINALLY! I've been waiting for this video! Cant wait to watch to completion! Love you both!

[@jesusmunoz329]

Both images are great! Congratulaciones!

[@pawepiechnik6248]

you two, guys, are outstanding... cheers!

[@NebuloCity]

Awesome collab guys! Wonderful images, both. Cheers!

[@Neanderthal75]

Great photos! Nico- I use permatex anti-seize compound on my spacer threads. Just a very tiny bit, so the threads barely silver looking and I don't get my spacer stuck together!

[@bpgfri1313]

I had a stuck 48mm x 5mm cheap amazon spacer stuck on my field flattener. After much effort (I had tried a vice and channel lock pliers on it) and giving up, I saw a post recommending painters tape!. I threaded a larger 30mm spacer onto it, wrapped the two with 1" painters tape, then the pair a twist and it came right off!. The longer spacer give you the grip you need (I used my hands), and sheer strength of the tape applies that torque to the smaller spacer.

[@lifeinrc9051]

Thanks for video Nico, I love the collab and compare work you guys put in for us to learn. Greatly appreciated and both images looked amazing.

[@woody5109]

Great video, great results, us amateurs really appreciate what you do.

[@juanromero5436]

Congratulation to both. Very impressive images. Thanks you

[@lukomatico]

Superb comparison guys! - both are wonderful images in their own right for sure! :-) When you guys were talking about seized adapters....man, I felt that, hahaha! Extra interesting comparison for me anyway, as I just finished my own dusty M45 shot from Bortle 7 here! Clear skies

[@frosthastrophotography]

Thank you for another great video, I always enjoy a good challenge. Keep up the good work!

[@martrich1098]

Excellent, fascinating video. I really appreciate the detailed discussion that you have included about imaging problems and processing problems.

[@gregerianne3880]

Beautiful images and terrific information! Thanks for sharing all this and for inspiring those of us new to the hobby to reach just a bit higher.

[@danm3844]

Great composition, Nico! You bring an artistic element into your astrophotography that is really unique and rare. Well done!

[@ikaabuladze6510]

Congrats on 100k Subs!

[@itzvsat5013]

Hey Nico, nice video! I really enjoy these challenges. I thought that it would be cool if you send each other your images without looking at it and then open them when you discuss. So you could have the images at the best detail possible rather than the screensharing from zoom :) And personally I would like to have a good look at the images too without all the compression... Maybe you could link them in the video desciption so we can have a better look too :)

[@jimgarasich7328]

Impressive work guys! You have inspired me to make another attempt at the faint stuff around the cluster! Thanks!!

[@JeffHorne]

Excellent video. So valuable. Thanks to both of you!

[@Rainy78]

I love these head to head battles! Keep em coming! Both are great results 👍

[@Backcorner_Astronomy]

Excellent photography on both sides. I was thinking maybe it would help to apply a tiny bit of copper grease on the threads of the spacers. This wil not get them stuck i believe. It could be worth a try. Also i loved the reference cuiv used of pilots with tunnel vision. I believe this could be a good explanation. And like you said we are tinkerers. Again, great shots! I love how you always think outside of the box. 👍🏻

[@absorbingphotons]

Fascinating challenge! I look forward to watching more collabs like this.

[@ChrrZ]

wow, these are impressive results, loved the conversation between both of you

[@rashie]

Fantastic episode!

[@mattnudi5363]

Really interesting collaboration and comparison!

[@mouseylikesnuts6437]

Great vid :-) The photoshop segment at the end was very useful thank you !

[@Sasmand]

Hey Nico, cool video! I was wondering what the website was that you showed in the beginning with the Bortle class slider? It seemed really cool!

[@NebulaPhotos]

academo.org/demos/bortle-scale/

[@Sasmand]

@@NebulaPhotos Thank you Nico!

[@SimonT65]

TIP FOR SHORT BINDING ADAPTERS: Screw another adapter on to the shorter adapter that is binding then use the strap wrench which will give the rubber strap enough surface to grip. It should unbind the stuck adapters. If that fails, screw the second adapter back on to the short stuck adapter and wrap electrical tape (or similar) around the join and use the strap wrench again. One strap wrench isn't enough sometimes so use two strap wrenches working against each other. Great video Nicko & Cuiv

[@poruatokin]

Great video but especially thanks for the description of walking noise, I was wracking my brains how to search for it. I am just starting out and currently shooting alt-az so I have circular walking noise in some of my shots due to field rotation.

[@jeffdutton1910]

the trick with using heat to release stuck threads is that you have to heat the piece with the female threads more that the one with the male threads. This is no mean feat with metals having a high thermal conductivity like aluminum. If you apply the heat of your hand to the female side only, you will introduce a small temperature gradient but it won't last for long and int may not be enough. Aluminum is also notorious for "picking up" which causes the threads to be unwilling to slide over each other.

[@markszkil]

Chock full of insights and gems. Thanks to you both.

[@dysichi]

Wow! I will try this in Tokyo too!

[@pederp5749]

If you have a very short extension tube stuck at the end of an image train. Insert an extra extension tube into the small one for a better grip. Sounds counterintuitive but does work. The friction of the treads even if not too tight is a lot better than the grip you can get with your hands alone on the short extension. Nice video guys!

[@ChrrZ]

great tip, thank you!

[@baronvonlimbourgh1716]

A touch of grease will help with the spacers.. It really needs to be a touch though. And the heat/cold thing only works if you get both pieces a different temperature. So put it in the oven for a bit and then lower the part with the outside thread in ice water so it shrinks while the part with the inside thread is still expanded from the heat. It should come loose that way.

[@robb7342]

Just love these challanges as its nice to see the thought processing and approaches. Not sure if you have heard of them, but try using large "Soft Jaw Wrenches" for your extensions. Basically grips with rubber pads that should work well for this type of problem.

[@michaelgrimes3564]

I learned very early on about Spacer Binding....It sucks..My First Star Party was almost ruined. The Strap Wrench Trick however thankfully, was taught to me by an old man named Bob with a huge SCT on the Field...and to his credit he stopped what he was doing to help me get back in the game in 20 minutes, and was very cool about it.... He actually helped me all night giving me tips and Advice.... The Funny thing is I never saw him again after that.....Here I am 12 years later and I wish I could not only thank him but show him how much better I got..... This was a Great Video, I really enjoyed it and Thanks to you and Cuiv with your insights....

[@RaduChelariu]

Worth repeating: use a bit of anti-seize on your threads. I learned that lesson from cycling (good luck unbinding a bottom bracket!).

[@james123j1]

For undoing stuck tubes use Rubber bands. They allow you to grip each piece more easily and I have never failed with this approach.

[@im.a.skyentist9692]

I found one of the best tricks to unbind stuck spacers is to set the stacked spacers down on something like a big living room rug and step on the stacked spacers. Wear sneakers to get a good grip and twist your foot to break the bind. This works for me, definitely don't do this for filters though lol.

[@danielstairjr]

I watched this video yesterday before going out to try and capture a few things last night. I noticed something interesting that supports the idea that a bit of drift causes the walking noise. When I shot Andromeda just after it crossed the meridian into the western sky, I got terrible walking noise. I had made a real point of getting my polar alignment as perfect as I could using my iOptron CEM26. Then, when I pointed my scope to the south to capture the Horsehead Nebula just before it crossed the meridian, I got essentially zero walking noise. It could be that the noise gets worse the further a person is aiming away from the poles. I haven't gotten into guiding or dithering (yet), so have been trying to understand this issue as a bit of a newbie. Another thing I've noticed is that if I intentionally set up to be a bit off on my polar alignment, that also greatly reduces walking noise, but at the expense of some unwanted drift over time.

[@MickR0sco]

I've never done astrophotophy but I feel I may have a solution for your binding spacers if what's causing it is what I think it is. You may be experiencing cold welding of the threads, this is because any oxide layer the threads have developed is worn away leaving 2 bare metals contacting under a fair bit of pressure and this can cause adhesion. You may need a slither of grease on the threads to prevent the metals actually contacting. Stainless steel is especially bad for this.

[@basfinnis]

Nice one. Both great guys to watch 😉

[@Nareimooncatt]

I love Topaz DeNoise (and their other products), but you are right that it can actually add detail that isn't there. It's great for more traditional photography, but I'm surprised many would think it's good for astro work.

[@CraigStocksArts]

For stuck adapters - grab a set of photo filter wrenches. I have the Neewer rubber coated from Amazon and they work great.

[@jamespeirce2582]

That bound threaded part problem? I have a pair of gardening gloves. They are rubber-coated inside the grip and thin fabric on the outside. I keep one or both with me in my astrophotography bits and backup container that I always bring with me. With that glove I can separate virtually anything. It allows for all the dexterity hands can afford for and a fantastic grip, but for tricky things like a thin spacer, you can sort of grip it in part, binding the rubber of the glove, and twist. Even if you can’t fully grasp the part with your hand you can twist and the rubber surface does grasp it, allowing it to be dislodged and removed. Some messes I have ended up in have been a bit challenging, but so far that solution has not failed once to remove a bound part.

[@lostmypicks]

Haha cuiv is the man. Cool to see you guys collaborate

[@hbmike47]

Lubricant.. the very smallest amount of high end clock oil and very clean and smooth threads. Try St.Claire Nano-oil 10wt. Always carry 2 strap wrenches. 😅

[@kevinashley478]

Hey Nico, Could you do a video explaining the process of taking images of DSO's in monochrome, then taking images in the RGB filters and the process of combining all of that data to produce a final image? And how do you take an image you did, say last year, and then add data to it at a later date? That would be very much appreciated! Thank you for all of your hard work and I hope 2022 is an even better year!

[@leatherindian]

I use a small amount of silicone lube on threads and/or the fridge to shrink the metal. Silicone lube doesn’t attract dust like oil.

[@sc4r3crow1976]

great challenge and commentary. very interresting

[@TheAmol297]

Hahaha what are the odds. I just photographed the Pleiades last weekend and was just processing the data. Excited to see this video now more than usual.

[@damiencannane]

Hey Nico. I've got a hack for the spacers! Take off your tennis shoes and turn them so the soles are facing each other. Place the spacers between the soles...I find that using the heel area works perfectly. Press the shoes together hard and twist! I've even done it out at the telescope in the dark. 😁

[@dumpydalekobservatory]

I don't know how you do it Nico I think it's witchcraft lol great images from both of yourself & Cuiv 👍

[@SkySailor75]

You guys need to try a plastic/rubber silicon jar opener on stuck spacers. The cheap ones on Amazon have a little ridge that lets you grip the tread bevel and the ring on thin adapters, and stops the "overlap" of strap wrenches...

[@jamiboothe]

I forgot my Vixen class dovetail once when I went to Utah. So, I used my camera and lens instead of a premium refractor. Luckily I had brought a tripod that has a much smaller dovetail, and used that dove tail with some shrub branches wedged into the mount to make up for the missing space. It was still an amazing experience, with decent results.

[@TheAstroGuy_m42]

Amazing video!

[@technic550]

Rubber or silicone wristbands are good for getting a grip on all sorts of things. Worth a try

[@seanbydawn8243]

I would try some very light grease on the threads of your rings, but only a light coat, so that nothing falls into the image train of course (overflow would be bad) but enough to keep the "stick-tion" out of the equation. It's what I do anyway and it always seems to work well enough. Might be tougher in ultra cold weather but at the same time you can warm them up and get things moving again. Just a thought.

[@barrymak421]

Edit* So after watching this holy cow... Nico your composition is... wow... that's all I can say. You are absolutely right you never see this composition, well until now lol. I know I'm gonna try a copy cat. This is just stunning. SWEET! I haven't watched it yet, but I will. I was hoping you would do another one of these like you did with Trevor last year. Can't wait to watch after work today!

[@astronomerathome]

I hate it when the spacers get stuck. But I found the best way to deal with it, is with electrical tape! Screw another spacer onto the stuck one (one you can get a good grip on), and then tape the two together. Since the electrical tape is stretchy, you can really tighten it down. Then you simply unscrew the stuck ring. Never failed me so far.

[@TjinDeDjen]

The thing with the spacers binding up is, if you heat or freeze them both of course it doesn't work; you'd have to heat up (dew heater or something, not an open flame) the female side and (at the same time) cool down (ice cubes, maybe ice spray) the male part. That way the difference in part size (thermal expansion) should make it easy to unscrew them. At least in theory.

[@NebulaPhotos]

That makes sense to me, but let me get your thoughts on this: I believe the explanation I've heard before for trying freezing the whole part is that the different parts may thermally contract at a slightly different rate, and that even a small difference in the rate the metals contract may be enough to get them to unbind. As I said in the video, never worked for me. I think that theory would rely on the two spacers having different thermal coefficients which would determine how fast the metals expand or contract when the temperature changes.

[@TjinDeDjen]

@@NebulaPhotos True. Also, even if they expand at different rates, you'd have to know wich part expands/contracts at wich rate. If you'd heat them and the male part expands more then the female part it would just bind them up more, possibly damaging/warping the parts. So yeah, generally not the best thing you can do.

[@ronsieloff3576]

Try a small drop of auto transmission fluid on the gap between the rings. Let it sit for a few minutes and then unscrew them. Works much better than wd40 or oils.

[@astrojet9484]

I got a cool way to remove small spacers.Fist, grab some bigger spacers, screw them on than put som tape between the spacer you want to get off and turn the big spacers with the tape, it helps a lot because of the bigger area!

[@McTavish11T7]

The soles of my running shoes act as an amazing grip. Squish one end into the rubber of the sole and twist. Works every time for me.

[@avipatil8400]

Somebody said it before. Have you tried something like Wd 40 or bb blaster before unscrewing. Or unscrew both large and smaller adapter and then apply unfreeze compound. Take a small amount of unfreeze compound and put it on a cotton swab and apply it to adapter if you don’t want to make a mess.

[@astroazores]

My trick for the spacers: a piece of rubber and pliers. You can glue rubber to the pliers to avoid scratches in the spacers.

[@donttouchmycoffee]

Tool guy here; Try using a zip tie and small strips of velvet to use on those short spacers!

[@DIYmonkey]

Put a super thin layer of Anti-Seize lubricant on the threads of the spacers and you'll never have to worry about it again.

[@madkingofnod]

Keep it up love like this challenge thing

[@kk-GUK]

Heat does work on stuck spacers but you have to let it cool back down before attempting to undo. Use a hairdryer on mine.

[@malcolmsmith9232]

Can I ask a straightforward question that may require a very simple or very complex answer? Why do you do astrophotography? It’s difficult to judge as KZbin and ‘real life’ aren’t always the same. Is your target to take a technically proficient and aesthetically pleasing image? Or do you hope to learn something in an astrophysical sense? I suppose, to sum up, picture or research?

[@NebulaPhotos]

Hi Malcom, I do astrophotography for 2 reasons: 1. I enjoy it. Like other past-times (sports, cooking, reading, etc.), amateur astrophotography can mainly be seen as a hobby that people undertake because they enjoy doing it. Like other hobbies, there is a community aspect, esp. if you join clubs or go to star parties. 2. I am trying to create aesthetically interesting images that others will appreciate. Part of that appreciation can have to do with the viewer learning something about astronomy, but that depends on the viewer and typically additional context outside of the image itself. Foremost in my mind is making an aesthetically interesting/beautiful photo regardless of who is viewing it or what addtl. context may be available to them. You could argue I now have a third reason which is commerce since I do make money from the KZbin channel. However, If I didn't enjoy astrophotography, I wouldn't have the KZbin channel. And to this point, all the money I make from KZbin has gone back in to astrophotography. In the future, If I can make this my full-time job, I will. I find astrophotography so enjoyable, I think it makes sense for me to devote most of my time to it. Many others, enjoy astrophotography, but wouldn't go to the extreme of spending 50+ hours per week on it. ~Nico

[@phcalama]

Wondering if, prior to threading adapters, you could get anti-sieze paste on the adapter threads without getting it on the glass? Might be worth a try.

[@scblue01]

Run a pencil across the extension tube threads. Graphite is a great dry lube and help stops ally on ally binding.

[@Neanderthal75]

I use a very tiny bit of anti seize compound, it barely colors the threads, but ever since then, I never get my spacers stuck together.

[@stephanschmidt6579]

Now I finally realized what the thumbnail reminded me of... Warcraft: Orcs vs Human... What is that font called again?

[@NebulaPhotos]

Ah, I don't know- Cuiv designed it, but yes you are right he mentioned it was the Warcraft font

[@riaandewinnaar5040]

You guys should do this more.

[@astrojet9484]

So I got a new way of removing walking noise, use banding reduction in siril,and it usually works when your noise is 90 or 0 degree angle.

[@emanrovemanchan1527]

You should everytimes consider the body heat of your hands causing the touched pieces to expand. Touch the outer part of a thread to expand it and use something to isolate while touching the other part to not get heatexpanded. But this only goes for cold Environments logically. Just a reminder... A very short one.... Without wasted letters😂

[@emanrovemanchan1527]

Oh, and any thread screwed together in a warm room should be tighter when it gets cold... Or not?

[@astrotechnique1]

I heat up the ring i have to remove by a lighter or a heat gun. It expands and is easier to remove then.

[@fazergazer]

Wondering if using the fixed pattern noise one could create a model of the walking noise and then subtract that from the lights? If you take that stack you made without registration you could use that to guide stacking a synthetic stack of fixed pattern noise, and then subtract that model. Of course, it is easier to just dither but I find these fun to try.

[@mauriziorvt]

Maybe you could try using a little bit of WD40 (spray), let it sit for a few minutes and gently tap (with the handle of a screwdriver) the side of the threaded tube while trying to gently unscrew it.

[@pabmarex]

I got my t2 adapter binned with an extender and I couldn't separate them, but suddenly one day I separated them with only my hands. It took me 2 months till I could do it. It took me crazy.

[@0815mkl]

What tool are you using at 00:44? That seems pretty handy to see the different bortle classes.

[@NebulaPhotos]

academo.org/demos/bortle-scale/

[@panos5366]

whats the website you use in the beggining to visualise deep sky targets under different bortle scale skies???

[@claromaro]

Now i'm gonna challenge myself to get on your level

[@cemoguz2786]

freazing work sometimes. one time my redcat's focus lock stuck noting work I was inquired my self and after I put it in the freezer and it was soft.

[@Xion-Rotti]

I've had a lot of good luck freezing filters that are bound up. It's usually my first thing I try.