A FASCINATING SONG // Umm Kulthum - El Helm | ام كلثوم - حلم // Composer Reaction & Analysis

[@muskett00]

This really nailed the 'Eastern' theme :) I really enjoyed it, but not as much as those in attendance. What a rapturous reception!

[@rudymeixell3426]

Bryan, I think the best thing you could do to help you get a handle on music like this is to read about (or watch videos about) the different types of modes used in a lot of eastern music. In Indian music it's ragas. In Arab (and, I think, Turkish), they are called maqams. Since you already have some music theory, you would get more out of those explanations than I would. Probably learning about the modes in one tradition would be partly transferable to others. (I remember talking to a musician who was combining Indian dhrupad and jazz and probably some Latin elements. One of the musicians he was working with was a klezmer trumpeter, and she was able to find a mode used in klezmer music that worked with the raga he was working from.) From what I understand, these modes are more complicated than western modes. For one thing, there are more rules. There is an expectation that the music move through different points in the mode, and there are rules about how to do that (along with room to modulate to a different mode, for variety).

[@wyburp7970]

Also, one things you guys might like, is a compilation called ''les voix du monde'', which is an anthology of traditionnal vocal techniques from all around the world. One guy called ''Juniavent'' put the whole list on youtube.

[@eiatos]

woah, didn't expect um kulthum of all things

[@AntennaTower]

same lol, a nice surprise

[@rudymeixell3426]

Hey Bryan, some initial responses. . . The genre is precisely a catch-all sort of genre (my comments in brackets): "The Ughniya (plural aghani) [I have seen this on compilation titles and never knew it was the plural of ughniya! Duh, it makes sense.] is a long song developed toward the middle of the 20th century. The ughniya can last up to hour [or over an hour!] in a live setting and has a long introduction (see The Muqaddima) as well as multiple sections with full maqam [the Arab modal system] modulations. The ughniya is usually performed with a large orchestra and features megastar singers like Umm Kulthum, Abdel Halim Hafez [Robert Plant's man] and Warda." (Not providing a link, because it will probably come an issue.) I don't think it necessarily has to be all that long, but it does tend to be, especially in live performance. I knew the old recording would potentially be a problem, especially for getting the vocals. I still hear all sorts of things happening in her vocals. She is constantly throwing her own built-in vocal effects, and in control of the flow of the song. I listen to a recording like this through the filter of having listened to her recordings for thousands of hours (hundreds anyway, but probably thousands, considering how long a lot of her recordings run), listening across her career. I might request a section of a live recording of a work by the same composer, but recorded much later. I don't like the idea of doing excerpts, but now that you have done one full song, I feel more comfortable with it. On further thought, I am thinking of moving on to an excerpt of a 1950's Riad El Sounbatti song. Hmmm. I'm more of a late 30's through early 60's Umm Kulthum fan. The most popular work seems to be her songs further into the 60's, like Inta Omri, which frankly I can do without hearing again in any form, although some of the extend instrumental sections in Abdel Wahab songs are great. I just think they are more about Abdel Wahab than Umm Kulthum. I think a lot of this music combines the linear and the cyclical. Popular Arab composers have been studying western classical music as part of their training since the 19th Century (not the 1900's, but the 19th Century). I don't want to lecture but sometimes you try to lump everything from a broad region together! I enjoyed that. I wish you could have gotten more out of the vocals, but that's the way it goes. I have to say, Arab musical aesthetics includes an appreciation for sheer power, and I don't think Umm Kulthum's voice is conventionally "pretty" to western ears. I wouldn't describe it as pretty, but often beautiful.

[@CriticalReactions]

That description quotation is excellent as it sums up stuff I touched on with more detail and proper vocabulary. I can't promise I'll be able to use all of those words in the future but I'll try to incorporate them, at least in definition. The idea of having a long introduction that gives way to multiple modulated sections is, I think, where the "linear but cyclical" reading I get comes from. I do find it interesting that this kind of music, Ughniya, usually features megastar singers. You're absolutely right that I sometimes lump things together. I think I do this most often with topics that I'm less familiar with. As I get more knowledge I'll begin to divide that knowledge into more nuanced boxes. You can actually see this happen at the beginning of my channel when I was first being introduced to metal vs how I talk about subgenre histories and regional differences now. It's just gonna take time, exposure, and great comments like that to get me there. So I appreciate being called out, especially if I incorrectly state anything.

[@rudymeixell3426]

@@CriticalReactions I am not sure I agree with that part of the description, actually (that these are only sung by celebrities). At the very least, singers of lesser stature (than those mentioned) have sung new songs in this style. I am not sure I want to name names, since I am not interested in any potentially heated arguments with their fans. But it's probably true they have to be reasonably accomplished singers to approach this sort of song. There is a separate issue of "everyone" covering these songs, or parts of them. Lots of less professional singers do covers of this material, I am sure. For example, George Wassouf, who is a celebrity singer, but pretty weak on technique, sang covers of songs like these (or at least parts of them) at weddings and parties, starting out when he was just a child. (I do like some George Wassouf, though generally nothing later than the mid-90's. So GW fans, please don't attack. I even saw him perform once in an Atlantic City casino.) Anyway, Ya Zalamny is a more famous song, and I am hoping the sound will work better for you, but it's hard for me to know how you will respond. I enjoy some pretty lo-fi material!

[@gillaliglaou2840]

ok, this is the last thing I thought I'd see on this channel.

[@wyburp7970]

idk oum kathoum is an overachiever. if you want any fleuve-songs (that's how they call those long songs ; basically songs of the nile) , you have 10/10 to go with abdel halim hafez; songs like Gabar, Soura or Fy youm (or Qareat el Fengan, which is very story driving, but less interesting musically). Hafez has the perfect crooner backstory and he was putting so much in his songs that, sometimes, i wonder if he didint poured himself in them. I personnally love how those songs takes their time, make beautiful refrains and are not afraid to re-present them, taking after each repetition more sens, more weight. Arabic songs are hard to get into due to the language barrier and because they got alot of pop-corrupted trash songs or very spirituals ones with ''hypnotic-inducing'' one.

[@ziyadlouraoui9629]

I needed to hear a reaction from a professional on Umm Kulthum's songs for so long thanks ! Here a clearer video and a better performance that might help you know more about this genere kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5WomGOepdufn9Usi=nZDkaN1_kDUd7bHx

[@wyburp7970]

I'm surprised no barbershop has got into this channel yet.

[@CriticalReactions]

I hadn't even considered that. I love barbershop quartets but never thought about doing any of that for a reaction.

[@Isteriap]

Sylvaine -Mørklagt please