A fun conversation with a potential theist

A few days ago, I had an exciting conversation with Jordan of @potentialtheism on various topics:
harmonizing efforts, biblical inerrancy, Marian apparitions, the nature of the resurrection appearances, Gary Habermas’ new book on the resurrection of Jesus, debating Bart Ehrman for 6 hours, and answering various questions from Jordan’s viewers. I respond to criticisms I’ve received on my understanding of the raised saints at Jesus’ death in Matthew 27:51-53 and to the minimal facts argument.
Jordan’s KZbin channel: / @potentialtheism
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Mike Licona is Professor of New Testament Studies at Houston Christian University. HCU offers an accredited Master of Arts degree in apologetics that may be completed entirely online or on the HCU campus in Houston.
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[@hopefultheism]

Thank you for coming on, Dr. Licona! It was a great discussion!

[@MikeLiconaOfficial]

My pleasure, Jordan!

[@georgemonnatjr.172]

I think the minimal facts approach when debating or conversing with non-believers is smart tactics with the highest probability of reaching skeptical minds. Be as cunning as snakes yet as innocent as doves.

[@dokidokibibleclub]

Congrats on 40k subs! Looks like just a few more to hit it

[@davidpdiaz]

The interviewer asked some excellent questions, which made for a wide-ranging discussion.

[@giedrepaliuliene6485]

Oh how I wish there were subtitles!

[@chrisazure1624]

I like the minimal facts approach. It isn't the final word, just a presentation that evades certain objections.

[@ancientflames]

Christian and religious dogma are being washed away this century and it’s lovely. We went from believing everything is a spirit, to there’s only certain spirits governing things, to believing there is one supreme spirit governing things. Now we’ve grown up and realized the agency we put on these spirits, that it was just us all along. We have grown beyond the myths and can finally forge our own destiny.

[@The-F.R.E.E.-J.]

Are you saying that man is his own origin? Or, that it doesn't matter what the origin is, all that matters is where we are right now?

[@sammyking9407]

You must either live in a cave unaware of events across the globe, or you’re the deluded westerner who thinks the West represents the pulse of the universe. Mainljne denominations are in decline in the West, that’s true. But you sound utter ignorant as to how Christianity is taking china, Latin America and Africa by storm. So much so that the Chinese government is going out of its way to suppress the Bible, but all their efforts have proven to be futile. Christianity is not going anywhere. Don’t fool yourself into taking the West as the thermometer for the whole world. Get out of your little bubble.

[@ancientflames]

@@The-F.R.E.E.-J. when did I say anything about the origin of man? That requires a lot of study of evolution, abiogenesis how our world and the universe formed. God however, is easy to find the origin of in the minds of superstitious men.

[@The-F.R.E.E.-J.]

Okay, so are you saying that, the only things that actually exist are those that can be discovered through the use of our five senses, ​@@ancientflames?

[@clarkemorledge2398]

Understanding the raised saints in Matthew as an eschatological prophetic image of what will happen in the "End Times" actually resolves a potential contradiction in the text, which a number of inerrantists seem to ignore, when they insist that the raising of these saints was an historical event. Were the raised saints in Matthew, who were awakened in their tombs, experiencing a resurrection of the flesh, or a resurrection of the spiritual body? When Lazarus was risen from the dead, this would have been a resurrection of the flesh, suggesting that Lazarus would eventually die again. There is no hint is Scripture that Lazarus is currently living today on earth, or that he had ascended to heaven, as the LORD did, after his resurrection. The type of resurrection Jesus experienced was categorically different (a resurrection of the spiritual body, no longer subject to death and decay) from the resurrection of Lazarus (a resurrection of the flesh, whereby his body was still subject to eventual death and decay). In 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Paul is emphatic that Jesus' resurrection was the "firstfruits" of the resurrection of all who are in Christ. In other words, the resurrection of Jesus was the first resurrection to a spiritual body, that would not die, as opposed to a resurrection of the flesh, which would eventually die again. It would seem odd for Matthew to pair the raising of the saints with the crucifixion, if the raising of the saints was only a resurrection of the flesh. But if the raised saints were experiencing a resurrection of the spiritual body, this would contradict Paul, as these raised saints were awakened BEFORE Jesus' resurrection at Easter. It is better then to view the resurrection of the raised saints as an eschatological image of the coming future resurrection of spiritual bodies, and not an historical event that began on Good Friday. This resolves the contradiction.

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

We run in similar resurrection conflicts between physicslism and spirit of God hovering over the waters in the early adam then planted trees in the garden where God had placed man he had formed. We see this type of issue playing out in our classical & qauntom physics. But , Based upon knowing what where when why and how that man made language, time & math and the protection of all calander Counting backdated 1st person credited history we must say God inspired man made. We have no option or you end up with jihad like islam to teach written by the hand of God. Some things are just necessary for greater good. We end up mystified as our current everything physicslism where input & perimeters drowned us out and it sets up the similar examples where JWST shatters nasa employees thinking everything they ever believed & worked on was wrong .that the entire science or physics collapses if we dont correlate photon ,time & space measurement. This is the perfect situation to learn from its the similar type of secular arbitrary example playing out before all the non believers in the resurrection who can't grasp Jesus rising form the dead while also at the same time like Paul indicates is prepared to sit with the father as is.

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

Obviously it's not a 1 to 1 ratio but we do see an arbitrary example in nature on the smallest scales where something similar to the pre fall garden where it's infinite degrees of freedom yet uniformity timelessness without linear direction just perfect building blocks of energy changing states or returning to the system. It's free from our classical observer fallen human dashboard hierarchy knowledge of Good and evil equations. In fact it 100% testable & repeatable within our understanding of the laws of nature for Jesus to undergo such transmutation if this was how He chose ,at his discretion alone God can act upon and move through our reality with no issues or limitations

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

With dead sea scrolls essences & qumran text giving us the opportunity to see what was genocided or censored we also see that a prominent oral prophecy spoke of the line of benginam to come in but the gospel only tell us this about John the Baptist but apparently the confusion around why James & the more established pharecee side of the movement may have known this and it is why PAUL held such sway. How and why he could step in out of deaf dumb and blindness persecution to them becoming a morphologically transmutated apostle himself. Why they all had to grant him respect & authority. But that Said Paul absolutely means what he says, he isn't just talking about Jesus salvation shaking the earth, he absolutely means that every plank length bit of of the universe shook and was washed in the blood of Jesus. That a God who created this separated system with all its parts with all its free 3 degree of motion was transformed & he invented words like metamorphic of morphological to try and articulate its grandure above and beyond physicalism as we know it . Paul is aware prayer logic cursed rationalism blessed common sense standardized weights and measure. He & everyone absolutely under idealism of individuals, the celestial objective & subjective space between that the more ancient worlds successful social behaviors that Athens and others had unpacked and explored.