A MUST HAVE for Anyone using ER Collets, Get a BEARING Nut and here is WHY

[@antser]

I bought one, it was binding up; not rotating freely. The runout was also all over. Contacted the seller and got a replacement that behaved almost the same. Investigated the function and it turned out that adding three balls to the race and also preventing the grub screw (that seals the ball entry) from reaching all the way in to the race fixed the problem. So two nuts made one functioning. Or if you could source extra balls of the correct dimension...

[@dazecars]

sadly not all tooling is created equally and some import tooling is just BAD. That is why I always go with a seller that has free returns when buying budget tooling. My experience with this seller and the quality has so far been outstanding. Thanks for the heads up.

[@larryschweitzer4904]

I ran a production wood shop for years. Our CNC routers used ER32 collets. The size used most of the time was a wear item, replaced every year with high quality items. Tooling was always set using a torque wrench in a bench fixture to insure proper tightening. That also reduces stress on the system. Premium collets reduce runout of the tool and will therefore increase tool life. A $100 coated router bit (Onsurd) will last two days of production cutting abrasive materials. $7 or $8 per hour tooling cost. Cheap, considering all the other costs. Not worth using cheap parts or tooling. A hobbyist will never know or care what his cost per hour is but will fight accuracy issues. I'm retired now and play with my metal machining. I buy mostly import stuff so I can have more or less complete sets. I really like my 5C chuck. I can work really close to the collet with my hands for polishing, no danger even if my fingers rub the chuck. I've got a "key" in a battery drill if I'm changing collet sizes a lot. I've got an internal stop for repeated work that is relatively accurate. It takes a lot of collets to have a full set. I've got several hex and square collets also. One of the greatest things about collet chucks is being able to hold threaded parts W/O damage to the threads. Also have collet blocks & a spin indexer that I've modified by reversing the end holding the collet. It's true that 5C won't hold as tightly as ER, but good enough if you use your head. The biggest disadvantage for hobbyist is the # of collets required to cover the full range. I also have the ER40 system. Set-Tru type lathe chuck, & R8/ER40 holder for the mill. A set of collets by 1/32s. Most of the time I use the R8 collets on the mill and if turning small work, the 5C chuck on the 1440c lathe. Have fun. Be safe!

[@dazecars]

As you said the rules for a production shop and a hobby shop are totally different. Even with budget tooling and things lasting a long time it's amazing how fast the costs for tooling add up.

[@mosfet500]

Thanks for the review. The jury is still out for me, there may be less wear but the standard nut does not wear the collect on mating surfaces that affect tolerances. Also I have never had a problem with tooling spinning in any of my collet holders on any size holder I use. As for accuracy, collect accuracy is the taper relative to the collet bore, I can't see why this would affect that. The last thing is that the bearing chuck, due to less friction, would seem to me to be more prone to loosen under vibration.

[@dazecars]

It doesn't loosen under vibration but does require you to tighten it a bit more. The accuracy part comes from the collet not binding against the inner collet retainer. Yes taper is the main factor in accuracy but the extra force from the non bearing nut can cause slight deflection in the collet. We are not talking huge amounts but when working in .001" enough for there to be a slight difference.

[@shadowcard6923]

Bearing collet nuts do generally increase the precision in holding tools as they often repeat better due to less camming from friction assuming it’s well made, as well as the increased holding force helps align it better and more rigidly.

[@dazecars]

Agreed, that has been my experience

[@FredFred-wy9jw]

I use er 40 and er 32 collets and have sampled 4 bearing collets nuts, three of them do not engage the collet correctly, reducing accuracy, not extracting the collet, and in one case damaging the collet … I like the one that works (an er 30) but my experience with the er40 collet nut has soured me on the low cost bearing nuts

[@dazecars]

getting bad tooling can really suck. that is why I always do "free returns" if I am ordering budget tooling. Usually sellers of bad product don't offer free returns and its a little extra insurance. get it home and test it and if its not good, send it back

[@blarbysliggelberry3896]

excellent video. i agree with your findings. i add the sugestion of a torque wrench for safety, accuracy and minimized tooling wear. the er standard has specs for each style. i had lots of split or jammed nuts without using a torque wrench.

[@dazecars]

Great point! do you use a dedicated torque wrench for er collets or an adapter with a typical torque wrench?

[@TheDefeatest]

Also very handy if you are using an endmill as a boring bar or radius endmill and need to keep one the cutting edges parallel to the bed as you tighten the nut!

[@dazecars]

good to know

[@markrainford1219]

Heathen. 😅

[@dazecars]

😁

[@freestyla101]

I just got an er32 and 40 collet chuck that uses a backing plate so you can pass material through. Pretty cheap too

[@dazecars]

I upgraded to an ER40 lathe chuck

[@taranson3057]

I have worked with premium collets that for the most part have zero runout and loads of accuracy. For my home hobby I purchased three of the bearing style collet nuts to use with my budget ER32 collets and I did a little bit of testing to see if I could improve the runout using the bearing style nuts. I did notice an improvement in the reduction of runout provided that removed any burrs, thoroughly cleaned the collet and the collet holder and checked the runout using a DTI and a precision ground rod. Using stock raw material to check runout will give you mixed results and make you rethink the accuracy of the collet. Just my two cents.

[@dazecars]

Thanks for the real world feedback, that is great!!

[@melgross]

True. raw stock is never round. It can damage the collet eventually.

[@taranson3057]

@@melgross I prefer turning a small section of the raw stock to a known size using the 3-jaw the swapping out the 3-jaw to use a collet chuck and then going from that point. It’s probably overkill in prep work but I’m retired and I have plenty of time on my hands, unless my GF loads me up with a bunch of honey do’s

[@melgross]

@@taranson3057 it’s never overkill to get something right. I’m a bit anal myself at times. Other times I’ve learned to not overdo it. But it’s a good idea to do that. While 5C collets are designed for stock, for example, which may not be sized, or really round, it’s interesting that ER collets, which are designed for tooling only, are being used on lathes as workholders for RAW stock. Really, not the best idea ever. Same thing for DA collets. Toolholding only.

[@taranson3057]

@@melgross yes, I know that ER32 collets are for tooling but I use mine on a mini lathe to make small parts and they tend to hold better than the 3-jaw. I did consider just going with a 5C collet chuck but they are expensive and social security doesn’t provide enough funds to cover my hobbies

[@eldonwilson8495]

agreed have used them for about 8 yrs and does exactly what you said

[@dazecars]

They ar ea big improvement for sure!!

[@MurraydeLues]

Tooling for a CNC environment with ATC, can use either top or bottom spline option. Having run a machine for 5 years, I am inclined to go for the top one. Think it might have less slippage and mashed knuckles.

[@dazecars]

Thanks for the info

[@joewhitney4097]

Great video, this is a no brainer. Anytime you transfer load inline vs. from rotation the alignment is better and the force to accomplish is less. Thanks for sharing.

[@dazecars]

Glad you liked it!!

[@melgross]

Ball bearing caps are good. But some companies such as Technika, which I have, has a coated nut which is supposed to be as good as the bearing caps, or better. I’ve got both, for my mill, and it’s hard to tell the difference, but I can get just a bit more torque with the coated cap. If you’re going to get these things, get a really good one, as a good deal of the collet centering comes from the cap. Remember that if the bearing isn’t good, then the centering will be off and will get worse as the bearing deteriorates over time. A good bearing of that size can cost significantly more than the cap itself.

[@dazecars]

I can see where a low friction coating would have a similar result. My concern would be durability of the coating especially if you missed a chip and it got inside. How does it seam to be holding up?

[@melgross]

@@dazecars so far, after three years, using it a fair amount, very well. Yes, you have to keep it clean. But then, since the cap determines the concentricity of the collet, you have to keep them clean, no matter what design they have. So that shouldn’t be an issue.

[@dazecars]

@@melgross agreed on keeping it clean, I was just thinking about that one moment, tired or thinking of something else and a chip gets missed. Three years indicates good durability.

[@ronwilken5219]

Sounds great. I'll have to see if they have them in er25 size. One question I have of you is why haven't you made a collet chuck to fit your style spindle/chuck mount that will allow you to pass long stock through the lathe headstock? They're easy to make and they'll be acurate to your lathe. You dont have to grind them to size, just careful machining will get you better than 0.0003 depending on your collet and spindle accuracy.

[@dazecars]

There is a link to the ER25 size nut. To answer your question I have not made a collet chuck because the 3 and 4 jaw chucks I have work for most things and if I do need to use collets in the spindle its small stuff. The bigger issue is time, something I don't have a lot of so making tolling cuts into other projects especially when it is something that would be nice to have BUT I really don't need.

[@howardosborne8647]

I have been using the bearing style nuts for over 5 years now..... they're definitely a big improvement over a standard friction closing nut. As you say poor quality bearing nuts are pretty much useless so buy from a reputable seller and all will be good.

[@dazecars]

I am glad that there are opportunities to purchase budget tooling with "free returns" It takes all the risk out of import tooling and you can end up with some quality parts and some import tooling is very good.

[@matthewmiller6235]

There is a torque spec for ER 32 I believe a standard nut is 130 foot pounds and the bearing nuts are 90.

[@dazecars]

yep good information

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

I had not heard of these- have now got one on order...

[@dazecars]

glad I could help!!

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

@@dazecars Except it worked fine for a while, and then jammed solid. Ruined my collet holder...

[@dazecars]

Thanks for the update. What size was it?

[@zjtr10since80]

Thanks for the honest review

[@dazecars]

My pleasure

[@332ARA]

Hi. I have an old HF H007 3in1 that I need to tool up for. Just the starter basic stuff. I have and empty MT2 bore (mill). I'm looking at ER32 collet set. I also need a draw bar. Yours looks like a bolt. How long is it? Looks like a machined something near the head? Or how do I properly size one? Depth from the bottom of the MT2 bore? I assume 3/8-16. McMaster has 12" Grade 8. Lastly I'm looking at Vevor vises. Swivel? 4", 5" ? What is a good size? I love your channel. thanks

[@dazecars]

The MT3 and draw bar in my video are to use in the lathe spindle. thats why I machined a shouldered collar to go on the other end. My millhead used R8 but a lot of the older HF machines were MT. All you should need is a bolt long enough that has the correct threads to match the MT collet holder you choose. I have a 3" vice and a 4" vice. I think 5" would be a little large. There is a group on Facebook for combo machines. If you come join I can share pix and other information more easily. facebook.com/groups/168134035160655 Glad you like my channel.

[@RustyInventions-wz6ir]

Just found your channel and Subscribed. Very nice work

[@dazecars]

Welcome aboard!

[@puddingpimp]

FYI you can get bearing nuts with the splines on the top end too.

[@dazecars]

Good to know, thanks for the heads up. Are they as budget friendly as the ones I’m showing? Just curious.

[@bobuk5722]

@@dazecars Hi, this guy beat me to it. Yes, they are budget friendly ones, at least over here. eg ArcEuroTrade Type B. I have two and I agree, they are great. For good measure I also bought a clamping fixture for the mill collet chuck. Before getting these two aids I have had end mills slip with rather annoying results. Cheers.

[@dazecars]

👍

[@petersilva4242]

I bought one that looks exactly the same as yours and the runout was twice as bad as the standard.dont know if I got a dud but that turned me off them

[@dazecars]

That is a risk with any budget tooling. However this seller offers free returns (part of why I ordered from them in the first place) so if it is not up to spec you can return it. I think yours was likely a fluke however as the seller has excellent feedback and mine were all good.

[@scroungasworkshop4663]

Thanks, I’ll give one a try. Cheers, Stuart 🇦🇺

[@dazecars]

I'm very happy with mine!!

[@albertmagician8613]

I wonder if the same effect occurs for wiping clean the slightly oiling three surface with light oil.

[@dazecars]

The answer is will oil improve its function yes, will it be as good as a bearing cap, no. This is demonstrated all the time in automotive applications There is a reason we use bearings in place of oil impregnated bushings. While they both work the difference between the two in night and day

[@ypaulbrown]

great information.....thanks, Paul

[@dazecars]

Glad it was helpful!

[@dghtr79_36]

solution to an invented problem... I have regular ER nuts that are more than 20 years old and besides the fading black oxide, they look pristine on the collet bearing surface, which is all I care about no special care has been given to these, wd40 spray when I put them in the drawer to prevent corrosion, that is about it, wipe clean before use, residual oil seems to be all that is necessary besides - they are consumables, if you use them that much that they wear out, you have done enough work with them to justify a new one, every 20 or 30 years... and on top of all this, I don't think that adding 2 more bearing surfaces and ball size irregularity really improves seating precision, it is easy enough to tap the regular nut while indicating on the tool to get it to run true if the collet is any good that is, and the holder itself, mind you this is to get them run true to less than 0.02mm, or 1 thou

[@dazecars]

I will concede to your 20 years experience that I do not have. As I said in the video whether or not it adds accuracy is up for debate. With those two things said for me the easier tightening and loosening coupled with the increased clamping force are what making it such an improvement in my shop. I have no doubt what you are using works well but to say it is not necessary without actually trying it might not be the best approach. 😁

[@melgross]

They don’t increase accuracy. Coated and bearing caps are only for easier tightening and giving greater torque. Techniks states that their coated ER 40 cap allows for 130 ft/lbs of torque, which is quite a lot. You can’t possible come close to that with a standard cap.

[@dazecars]

👍

[@rossnielsen6820]

Thanks man! Really helpful.

[@dazecars]

Glad it helped!

[@EdwardKilner]

I’m going to forward this to my friend who has recently purchased some collets. My question is : why would you not do your viewers the courtesy of showing how you actually use the thing? Clearly, not a machinist, but clearly have interest.

[@dazecars]

Simply because there is nothing to see. The standard collet nut and the bearing nut are the same size and shape, hold the collets in the fashion and install the same way so there is no value is showing one nut or the other being installed. Thank you for your comment.

[@camillosteuss]

I`ve seen these, and i`ve read about these... In short, only get the high quality ones that are not imported or you are getting a shit deal... No brass/bronze/alu bearing ``cap`` should be there either, like is seen in this video(i assume anodized alu, but could be brass)... Those cause issues... Only the ground steel ones with nice quality bearings are worth the money, and they supposedly are remarkable... Kinda like adding a thrust bearing to a lathe toolpost handle - prevents the rubbing, wasted efforts in overcoming friction, negates the friction or rubbing wear of the collet and the seats, just like the thrust bearing does with the toolpost and handle flange surfaces... I have not gotten any myself, as my current state of shop is more of a machine storage room, and so i don`t use my machines, i just do some modern art painting with lubricants and splash the machines like a madman to keep them nice and rust free, but i have no need of those atm, yet they appear as a great idea if gotten from a reputable supplier... I won`t suggest making them yourself, as for once, even i am not willing to consider bothering with that... Just don`t get the cheap ones... Tooling can be found for cheap, but that applies only to uninspected new-old stock bits that you run across when shops close or when a shop owner dies and the ingrate descendant scum decides to just sell/scrap all of the machines and tooling to get the space so they can sell that too - like the miserable little goblins that they are... Cheap tooling from a supplier is either a waste of money(shit) or it`s a kit(decent quality, but 0 finishing and fitting outta the box) that you have to invest some hours of manual work into to get it to perform like a decent tool... This is not an old type of tooling, so you won`t be finding these as new-old stock in some closed shop, buried under a bunch of other stuff in some machine accessories cabinet... Best regards! Steuss -edit- I clean my collet holders(long taper) with acetone or brake cleaner before each collet change, and i squirt some way oil down the threads of my collet nut, thus the oil lubricates the freshly cleaned and dry threads, but it also sinks down and lubes the short taper section of the nut, which as you tighten the nut - lubes the collet itself on the short thread section, allowing the long tapers of the holder and the collet, which are dry - to seat well and not spin due to increased friction, and the short sections being lubed are given a bit of a helping hand with the wear and tear effect of the material rubbing, without affecting the retention of the collet in the body... It`s my advice if you don`t have a bearing collet nut, as i do so myself for every collet or tool change, and it works beautifully...

[@dazecars]

Thank you for your detailed description and opinion albeit less persuasive not having actually used a budget unit yourself. I have had mine for over a year and they work flawlessly. Yes you get what you pay for and a more expensive unit will last longer but a lot is dependent on how often you use the tooling. If you are using it multiple times a day every day then yes get a high quality unit but if your use is more sporadic a budget friendly option can be just as effective. I find that most people that complain about budget tooling like this fall into two categories the first are those that have never used it and assume its junk because its imported and inexpensive and the second are those that get it for a high production situation and expect it to perform as well as the more expensive unit they should have gotten to begin with. Thanks again for your comment.

[@camillosteuss]

​@@dazecars Anytime, as said, i read about these for the most part, but theoretically, one needn`t use them to be able to figure out what is good about them and what are the potential issues that could come from a shitty vendor... At least if you have any machining experience and knowledge - this ain`t an intricate car engine, it`s just a great idea applied to a toolholder, but the execution of the application can vary... Also, you missed a category - people who have major disdain towards getting China imports due to political reasons... Sorta like activists, but with less snot and more actual principles to them... I don`t really hold that stance, but i can understand it and even applaud it... When you are getting a tool for cheap, and if the tool is literally not just a turd wrapped in a box - at least for the prices that stuff comes for, then you know that someone was exploited brutally to get that for you... I won`t say that i don`t fancy myself some quick cheap carbide endmills for hardmilling, or cheap cbn for hardturning, but that is the problem... I know that i`m getting a very decent product, for too cheap... Tempting, but temptation is always alluring, yet invariably evil at the same time... Best regards!

[@dazecars]

Sadly at this point the vast majority of consumer good are made in China and they are almost impossible to avoid. Even worse in many cases the China made goods are higher quality then their US made counterparts. I have a "us made" Craftsman tool box that cost me almost double per cubic inch compared to a Harbor Freight China made toolbox and the Craftsman unit is half the quality and the HF unit is far superior. I too applaud those that "buy local" and I try to do the same as much as I can but its not as simple as it should be when in many cases you pay a lot more for the same or lessor quality. Please don't misunderstand me I am not implying in the sligest that a budget bearing collet nut is the same or better than a more expensive unit. You get what you pay for and if you are willing to spend enough money you can get the highest quality that will last a lifetime. The same cannot be said of budget tooling and they will where out faster but its less of an issue if it will see light use. The bulk of this statement I am just speaking in general terms regarding China made products as a whole.

[@practicalplinking6133]

the bearing nut has a higher torque setting than the slotted nut- look it up !!

[@dazecars]

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to tell me. I don't torque it to spec, I just tighten it down.

[@Tater1337]

for ER11, the bearing type nut is about 4 times the price of the whole collect chuck for a hobbyist, this seems impractical

[@dazecars]

Buy once cry once 😁 but also everyone’s budget is limited so you must choose if it’s worth it or not. I could see it likely being less beneficial on smaller collets.

[@patrickbeaumier8616]

Nice info. Thanks.

[@dazecars]

glad you liked it!!

[@rogerfroud300]

Hmmm... do you really have an issue with holding force? I've never experienced an issue. I don't think the imagined benefits are worth pursuing.

[@dazecars]

thank you for your opinion

[@mrkalikutista8729]

The er32 size is too expensive, its $50 😢... Badly need one of this but its over priced

[@dazecars]

Its $32.95 on the link I posted

[@ammerudgrenda]

Not “less than $20” anymore. It’s $33 now.

[@dazecars]

thanks for the heads up

[@The_Unobtainium]

"currently unavailable"

[@dazecars]

Thanks for letting me know

[@charlesspringer4709]

Welp, 9:30 and you never used it!

[@dazecars]

Showing it in use is no different than showing a standard nut in use. Nothing to see

[@ARMWorks]

@@dazecars Except the wrench problem. KZbin is video. Better to show than to say. Anyway, I stuck one on my Amazon Wish List. Thanks for the tip.

[@dazecars]

Makes sense, thanks for the comment.

[@davidt8438]

After all that you didn’t show it in use.

[@dazecars]

Nothing to see, it installs and tightens the same as a standard nut.

[@Chris-bg8mk]

The collet still moves inward as you tighten, so there's still movement. The collet gets smaller, and moves inward in the taper. Collets, and tapers, are wear items, like so many things in the shop. Also, getting swarf into the bearings here (inevitible) will reduce accuracy, assuming (doubtful) that this thing is made accurately in the first place. What's your MEASUREMENT to assert that it's tighter. I'd say it might be easier to tighten, but not that it gets tighter. If the thread pitch is the same, and you turn it the same amount, it's the same tightness, right? When you say CONFIRMED, you need data, not conjecture. This looks like a hammer looking for a nail to me.

[@dazecars]

I appreciate your feedback. Yes there is still movement as the collet is pressed into the holder BUT it is only in one direction and parallel to the collet slits which will reduce wear thats just common sense. The fact that it is by nature a "wear item" is not a good argument at all. Just because it is consumable doesn't mean getting an extra 5% life out of it doesn't have benefit. A far super argument against the virtue of reduced wear came on another comment. He said it took him 20 years of regular use to wear out a collet with a standard nut. If you need a new tool ever 20 years, adding an extra 6 months is not in and if itself worth the upgrade. I would say a wear improvement is marginal. The holding power is not. Ironic that you use a word like "conjecture" (an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information) as you have formed this detailed opinion without having tried the bearing nut. Yes the potential holding power with both nuts is the same BUT with the same amount of pressure from the wrench the bearing nut will tighten down further because of the reduced friction. Things will also seat better as movement is only in one direction. I agree measurements would have been more conclusive but observation is also a valid form of data collection especially when the improvement is significant. Read through the comments you will see lots of people coming to the same conclusions I have. It is not like I purchased this nut with a video in mind. I got it 6 months ago because someone said it was "better". I put it through its paces and CONFIRMED it was better, and Then decided to do a review. No forgone conclusions or a situation of a "hammer looking for a nail"

[@melgross]

Front closing collets don’t change position the way rear closing collets must.

[@dazecars]

👍