A Non-Denominational Protestant Goes to A Lutheran Service

This week, Jacque asks Megan about her experience visiting two different Lutheran services for the first time.
Let’s Talk About it with Jacque and Megan is a podcast born from our friendship. We are two people with very different beliefs, yet a shared desire to have understanding and unity! We love to have good natured "Catholic vs. Protestant" conversations to bridge the gap between our faith traditions. On this podcast, we talk about real and difficult topics such as mental health, faith, sex, shame, and more to cultivate a space where we can all just talk about it. In a culture of social media outrage, division, and "canceling", we want to create an environment in which we can have fruitful discussion & disagreement.
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[@josephparks4270]

Being a fairly new Lutheran, I see the “real presence” as a “what?” question: What do you believe about communion? We believe in the real presence…. Transubstantiation is a “how?” question: How does the real presence work in communion? The catholic would say “transubstantiation.” The Lutheran would say “I don’t know how, I just believe our Lord when He said that it is.”

[@tony1685]

if they base their beliefs off of Scripture, 'transubstantiation' would be clearly and without question be shown as symbolic. i believe, had Luther been here now, he'd also be keeping the 7th day Sabbath, rather than pretending one can 'keep' sunday when it's never been sanctified, blessed nor made Holy. in fact, Scripture foretold that It would be tampered with and the 'church' which did so, then even *ADMIT* to doing so! interesting and true!

[@jacqueandmegan]

Jacque here. That is a good explanation. Thanks for sharing!

[@tony1685]

@@jacqueandmegan yet it's speculation since Scripture doesn't support it.

[@Valathiril]

As a Catholic either is fine and beautiful in their own ways. It's similar to the differences between the western Catholic and eastern catholic/orthodox churches. The western church was always very scholastic and academic, always trying to define terms and understand the nitty gritty. The eastern catholic/orthodox churches never took that approach and left things as a mystery. You see this also reflected in what they mean by theologian. In the west a theologian is a scholar, and academic. In the east, a theologian is someone who has a strong prayer life i.e. a Father Zosima type.

[@markkeller725]

Pastor Bryan Wolfmuller would be a great Lutheran guest. He is a former evangelical.

[@dedragalyon6879]

I think Pastor Will Weedon would be great.

[@mindatraffie3800]

They have had Pastor Wolfmuller as a guest. You should give it a listen!

[@mj6493]

Megan, the key to understanding baptismal regeneration is that baptism is a work, yes, but it is God's work, not ours. In the water of baptism God reaches down and forgives us of all our guilt and sin. He makes it happen, not us. The power of the cross and resurrection washes over us. It's not about our obedience, it's about his promise. When you were baptized, all the power of the cross of Christ came upon you, your sins were forgiven, and you became his forever. "And baptism...now saves you-not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,..." 1 Peter 3:21 Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

[@lisajones7756]

I think it was Bryan Wolfmueller or Will Weedon that said Lutherans receive what God has done for us where as reformed look for what they can do for God.

[@watermaster2197]

In the Reform tradition, baptism is a "contract" between the believer and God. In Lutheranism, it's all God; we are witnesses and beneficiaries of the work that God is doing for us in and through the water and his word, but it's God's doing alone. That's why infants can receive baptism as effectively as adults.

[@joabthejavelin5119]

As an LCMS member, Lutherans don't believe in consubstansiation because we don't believe it's a mixture, but both; similarly to the incarnation where Jesus is both God and man, not a mixture or God inhabiting a man. We are supposed to have closed communion in all our churches. That pastor isn't following the rules. As for the ELCA; they are not Lutheran or evan Christian and we don't commune with them.

[@jpmangen]

It is the true body of Christ given for you. It is the True blood of Christ shed for you for the forgiveness of your sins.

[@lyssadobbins7209]

LCMS Lutheran here. From my layman understanding, where we differ from Catholics in the Lord’s supper is this: We don’t believe that the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine. We believe in the true, real, physical presence of Jesus’ body and blood in the sacraments but they (somehow) continue to also be bread and wine. Much like the incarnation of Christ and his two natures, God and man. The bread is both bread and Christs body. The wine is both wine and Christs blood. We teach and confess that Christ is in, with and under the bread and wine. And we believe that the sacraments work faith and the forgiveness of sins. Any fellow Lutherans feel free to correct me if I got any of this wrong ☺️

[@bettykirkes7491]

The difference between Catholic and Lutheran is also that in Catholic the priest changes the bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ whereas the Lutheran just says it is because the Bible says it is. It’s the word along with the bread and wine.

[@Outrider74]

I'm now a Lutheran, but started off Baptist, then went Pentecostal, then Wesleyan, then Calvinist. I can't imagine being anywhere else. The reason why is because I looked at Lutheranism, then looked at the Scriptural passages that the other denominations wouldn't deal with, and it made sense.

[@jimbedrosian1506]

@Outrider74 I followed a similar Journey. I feel more at home in LCMS church I'm attending.

[@TX2CO]

In regards to closed communion I recently moved from non-denom to a confessional liturgical LCMS church. Two things that helped me understand and appreciate closed communion. The first is a video by Pastor Brian Wolfmueller "Closed Communion, the Biblical Case". The second is from the Didache stating that only those have been baptized should be admitted to receive the Eucharist. For more Lutherans you should interview I'd highly recommend Wolfmueller, Dr. Jordan B Cooper, and Will Weedon. Also the book Theology of the Cross by Gene Edward Veith is very powerful for understanding Lutheran theology.

[@dallasbrat81]

Not my LCMS Lutheran Church, it has a open communion with the biblical warning

[@peccatorjustificatus777]

Good lutheran pastors you could interview are Dr. Jordan B. cooper and rev. Will Weedon

[@joabthejavelin5119]

Bryan Wulfmuller is good, too.

[@rappmasterdugg6825]

Loved Will Weedon on Star Trek.

[@fh1363]

Chris Rosebrough would be another good one to reach out too. Very active on KZbin, see Fighting for the Faith and Kongsvinger Lutheran Church channels.

[@fh1363]

Also just happened to think, depending upon how far you want to go w/ it, maybe also try Tapani Simojoki of Our Saviour Lutheran Church in the UK. Get a sense of how the various Lutheran Churches "across the pond" differ from the US. If nothing else he does an [almost] daily Matins service that is a great way to start the day.

[@Dilley_G45]

If you check out "Higher things" there are more. Another conservative Lutheran pastor is Josh Sullivan from "Ask the Pastor"

[@BirdDogey1]

I'm LCMS which means conservative. My nondom friends ask why I don't attend a bible teaching church. Our whole service is straight from the bible. The liturgy is composed of bible verses. We have readings, psalms and the Lord's Prayer. It is all in the bible.

[@lisajones7756]

Singing the Psalms the best!

[@lyssadobbins7209]

Exactly! Our liturgy absolutely bombards us with the gospel from start to finish! And then afterwards we have Sunday school. Also, something I heard a catholic say that I agree with, is that the Sunday service shouldn’t be about Bible study, it should be about receiving the gifts of hearing The word, absolution and holy communion, and also to worship and praise God. Bible study should be done separately from the Divine Service. For many nondenominationals, Sunday service is just one big bible study group. And I used to be nondenominational so I can say that from experience. Edit: just wanted to add that I love my nondenominational/evangelical brothers and sisters in Christ! I hope I’m not coming across in a mean spirited way. 💜

[@nilsalmgren4492]

The church leaders holding the keys to heaven is not scripture. Lutheran teachings on the Lord's Supper is not out of the Bible. Find a place where we are instructed to tell people they cannot take communion with you. Find a place where if you do not believe Jesus is in the bread and wine you are committing some sort of sin.

[@jpmangen]

Crack open the Lutheran hymnal and you will see where the liturgy is referenced from the Bible.

[@BirdDogey1]

@@mpkropf5062 Dont cha know it. Gets grandma going.

[@jamesbogart9211]

The LCMS has many ministries for different ethnic groups - many African immigrants, plenty of Spanish. there is also a significant ministry to the deaf.

[@mj6493]

It was Flannery O'Connor that said that if the Eucharist is just a symbol then "to hell with it". Affirming the Real Presence, Luther told Zwingli, "hoc est corpus meum", or "this is my body". Apparently he was pounding his fist on a table as he said it. So, yeah, a colorful guy.

[@minionman95]

Some say he carved it into the table with his hunting knife. And told Zwingli he’d rather have the Eucharist with the pope than him.

[@jamesbogart9211]

on closed Communion, see 1 Cor 11:17-34 it is actually an act of Christian love intended to keep someone from sinning by disrespecting the sacrament in not accepting the Real Presence.

[@dedragalyon6879]

Amen and Amen!

[@SeanusAurelius]

My beef with this (as a non-Lutheran protestant) is that it excludes bona fide Christians who believe in real presence, which seems contrary to scripture and ironically, an accretion.

[@dedragalyon6879]

Do you believe that you orally receive the Body and Blood of Christ in, with, and under the elements when you take the Eucharist for strengthening of faith and for the forgiveness of sins? In a literal sense, rather than a spiritual sense?

[@dedragalyon6879]

@@SeanusAurelius What is your understanding of the Real Presence? You may find it is not the same as Lutherans, hence the closed rail.

[@SeanusAurelius]

​@@dedragalyon6879 I'm genuinely unsure at the moment. I grew up Catholic, came to faith as a Baptist, but have since discarded the memorial view. Haven't decided between something like the Reformed (probably not), Anglican or Lutheran views and am studying the topic all the time and praying. I accept the Lutheran argument that whatever it is is objective because if it were only received by faith then it wouldn't be to condemnation if it was received unworthily, it'd just be wine and bread. I can happily believe - lean towards it, actually - that it's a means of grace as my soteriology is getting quite Lutheran and I accept that even my faith is a gift. Also, the structure of John 6 actually does point to communion IMO. I would challenge you guys to explain why you'd exclude e.g. Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, who clearly do agree that "This IS my body", albeit using a particular philosophical/theological framework to explain it; that seems like pure sectarianism to me. That is is Christs body in the literal sense is not at stake there. There's no disrespect, there's no lack of faith, so IMO there's no good rationale except a reflexive sectarian impulse. It's the #1 thing putting me off Lutheranism (well, that and the fact that in my country, New Zealand, the Lutherans are mostly mainline and liberal)

[@willkietzman1121]

The reason why we as Lutherans practice closed communion is that in communion you are affirming that you believe what that church confesses. We hold a very traditional high view of the eucharistic. We also dont hold the ELCA as lutheran because of their doctrinal postions. They are more similar to a "progressive" church. You, (I mean this will all love and respect) and everyone else, ought to read the Book of Concorde. It sheds a lot of light on what we believe, teach, and confess.

[@tony1685]

there is no yoooookrist in Christianity, friend. Jesus established the Lord's Supper and it's symbolic of us internalizing the Word of God - see Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4 and most of Scripture.

[@willkietzman1121]

@@tony1685 you might want to go read the early church on this matter.

[@jacqueandmegan]

Jacque here! This is why Catholics have a closed table as well! Thank you for your comment! :)

[@tony1685]

@@willkietzman1121 i have -- It's called the Bible. see Isaiah 8:20

[@tony1685]

@@willkietzman1121 i have -- It's called the Bible.

[@learntodrivenow]

LCMS is closed communion so if that church is part of the LCMS, it should be reported they are practicing open communion. Unless there was some sort of miscommunication between the Pastor and Megan.

[@andrewwaltrip8552]

Unfortunately the Texas Chapter LCMS does not actually go out and make sure the church’s follow the divine teachings of closed communion

[@jeromegernander1073]

The LCMS and the ELCA were never united as one body (referring to when you said they split). The predecessors to the ELCA (what it eventually was formed from) originated mostly on the east coast and among the Scandinavian immigrants (Norwegian and Swedish); the LCMS formed from two main groups of Germans who emigrated, mostly in Missouri to begin with but also in Michigan.

[@ThePolcat]

My family started attending lcms during lent 20 years ago. It lead to us joining. I love the church year. And the readings.. Even if the sermon is bad the hymns make up for it.

[@lydiaschauer]

Another Synod to the Lutheran Church in America is the Wisconsin Synod. This is by far the most traditional. I've been a member of all three synods, and I deeply appreciate different aspects of the three synods. The one thing I'm guaranteed of though, is I can walk into any of the synods on a Sunday morning and have a very familiar liturgical service. I have advocated to bringing Vespers back to the ELCA... it's my favorite service.

[@Valathiril]

Fun fact "Roman Catholic" was an insult in the beginning also. It's Latin Catholic technically, but we've since embraced Roman Catholic.

[@osmoregulatoryorgan]

I went to a Lutheran church as an ex-Pente. I felt very fulfilled by the service. It was calm, simple and full of scripture.

[@jpmangen]

Luther did not want to split the church but wanted to correct the Catholic Churches divergent from scripture and proper teachings.

[@beardedbdub426]

I think that cross is a Celtic cross. Though it may be in a Lutheran church, I don’t think Lutherans identify with it as they do with Luther’s Seal.

[@djord88]

That's not a lutheran cross. There is n9 such thing. It's more of an Irish.

[@dedragalyon6879]

It is a Celtic Cross

[@BenjaminWirtz]

I was expecting her to show the LCMS cross.

[@BramptonAnglican]

Also yes Episcopals are Anglicans.

[@christinablow]

The Ash Wednesday service is a very different service from the Wednesday Lenten services. The only service that is more solemn is Good Friday.

[@TheBlackToedOne]

The LCMS is confessional/liturgical. Most catholics hate it when I say there is an incredible amount of commonality between the LCMS and the Catholic church w/ just a few yet significant disconnects. Take a moment to read the 95 thesis and you will learn a lot about Luther and his values. People forget that Luther started as a Catholic monk and his first issue w/ the Catholic church actually started w/ Johann Tetzel and HOW he was selling indugences. It's a very interesting history and I highly recommend you read it. It is not the narrative the Catholic church promotes. SPOILER: Luther didn't leave the Catholic church; he was kicked out and fled the country under penalty of death. In his mind he was actually fighting FOR the Catholic church..

[@SeanusAurelius]

I'm a former Catholic turned low church Protestant (and now maybe trending Lutheran). The 95 Theses were almost shockingly Catholic when I read them, it was entirely natural to me with the 'Catholic' part of my mindset, far more so than with my Protestant mindset.

[@user-bg3hi1sl8f]

Read the council of Trent and compare to the Augsburg Confession or Luther’s Large Catechism. It’s really different. The primacy and Papacy of the pope. But, Namely justification. Saved through Faith alone by Grace alone which is a gift. all for Jesus sake He alone is the propitiation. That is not RCism. Trent says we’re anathema for that belief. Anathema! For Grace Alone. The prodigal son did nothing when the Loving Father saw him from afar and ran to greet him. Luther said the bread and wine following the words of Christ is neither trans nor consubstantiation, But it IS the Body and Blood because Jesus said it is in His own testament. Like he is both man and God in the flesh because He says He is. This is My body. This is My blood shed for you for the remission of sins. That faith is credited as righteousness and you have exactly what the Testament says you receive; forgiveness of sins FOR JESUS SAKE. If you believe it to be a symbol you are directly against Jesus Testament. 1Cor 11:27 if you take it an unworthy manner it is a sin against: 6:19 the Body and Blood. Not a sin against the symbol. This is why closed communion is necessary that one would confess this before men: this Is HIS TRUE BODY AND BLOOD, shed for YOU/ME for the forgiveness of sin. How can you stay away then? The Father is waiting with the finest gifts.

[@dallasbrat81]

Yes my LCMS Lutheran Church has both traditional and contemporary services . Most of the traditional services have organ music and pastors in robes . The traditional service is mostly people over 50

[@dallasbrat81]

I love listening to both of you when Megan actually learns why some mainline Protestant believe in infant baptism and see it’s biblical along with the Eucharist what Lutherans and Catholics believe it wil be interesting

[@oliverlamie3449]

Jacque, you're in Chicagoland - if you wanted a Lutheran Church to visit, my brother is pastor at Peace Lutheran in Beecher. It's not IN Chicago, but perhaps more representative of the more rural LCMS anyway.

[@lemokemo5752]

Jacque expressing her appreciation for Lutheran-Catholic similarities gave me warm fuzzy feelings. 😅

[@tony1685]

neither of them honor our Creator by keeping Exodus 20:8-11, but rather bow to the papacy by pretending the sun worship day is the Lord's day.

[@lemokemo5752]

@@tony1685 7th-day-adventist? Jehova's Witnesses

[@tony1685]

@@lemokemo5752 i am an Adventist Christian. we believe all Ten Commandments are still valid.

[@SamSups]

Thankfully there's someone here who is living up to the 10 commandments.Happy Sabbath on the wrong podcast.

[@tony1685]

@@SamSups friend, when sin is the problem, it's always the right time.

[@bonfireblessings]

LCMS is a closed table. 😮 Shocked that a church would not enforce that. Thank you for searching and sharing.

[@shinzman87]

“Rather pure blood with the Pope than mere wine with the radicals” -Martin Luther

[@wlg2367]

The cross in the Missouri Synod which is like a logo of the church is three combined crosses making up one cross. The crucifix is not present in most Lutheran Churches. The Liturgical service is the most prominent aspect of the Lutheran Church. Worship is centered around Word and Sacrament (Communion).

[@kerrylink6305]

Been a Lutheran all my life and never heard of a Lutheran cross or seen one

[@SAD20005]

Same.

[@shinzman87]

There are some LCMS churches that practice open communion but according to the LCMS confessions they are not supposed to do that. The LCMS in general practices close communion.

[@brianwest6341]

This is a divide within the various Synods. And shows the degradation of doctrine that the ‘contemporary’ services bring to our churches. What you got was barely a bullet point explanation of why we practice close communion officially. Too much to cover here.

[@dedragalyon6879]

Yes, that pastor should be disciplined if not defrocked.

[@BirdDogey1]

Pedo baptism...John The Baptist leaped for joy in the womb when hearing about Christ.

[@SamSups]

We might add, there is no single text in the scriptures that speak against or prohibit paedo-baptism nor command only adult baptism, therefore it is a blessed response to give the child the blessed benefit of the doubt by baptising them.

[@savagewife6651]

The LCMS practices closed communion because of Paul's warning that if taken incorrectly you're damning yourself. The church would rather err on the side of caution than accidentally damn someone because they don't believe in Jesus' true presence which most American Christians don't and only view communion as bread and wine. I tend to believe the 2nd pastor you saw was not a cinfessional LCMS pastor.... Unfortunately they seem to be penetrating the LCMS. Very sad to see.

[@jonathanjars]

I'm surprised that one of the LCMS churches you attended practiced open communion. I thought it was standard that LCMS churches practiced closed communion. I attend an ELCA church, but I grew up Pentecostal and the church I attend now follows a more high church/liturgical service format. Some ELCA churches are pretty "out there" from what I've seen on the internet, but the church I attend is about 1.5 miles my home, and they were very welcoming to me, and they seem very normal...haven't seen or heard anything crazy yet. I probably agree much more with LCMS doctrine, but the closest LCMS congregation is like a 40 minute drive away, so I've stayed where I am and I like it there. Maybe you should visit an ELCA church just to see the difference. I visited an LCMS church recently because I was traveling out of state, and they were very nice and I was able to follow much of the service as it was very similar, but I will say the church building itself was much more "Protestant". For instance, my local ELCA church has stained glass windows and kneelers, which the LCMS church did not have.

[@bonfireblessings]

Believe and be baptised, you and your household.

[@jamesbeachsr.4330]

You have the (ELCA) way, way, way to liberal then the LCMS which tries to walk between the ELCA and the WELS/ELS and then the CLC. The WELS/ELS is more stricter then the LCMS. There has been so much faults doctrine that came into these Lutheran synods. Unfortunately all the churches has changed and you can tell it by a lot of the new hymns that they took the old hymns and changed the words so the meaning is not all there. Almighty Fortress is Our God is one of them. Go look on page 262 in the TLS book. That's the Battle Hymn of the Reformation in Germany on Oct 31, 1517. I am an old Germany Lutheran at heart. My old Paster had a black rob with the two white German ties at the top of his rob. He had an old friend of his would start the service In Germanthe Nom und of the Vater. Und the zon und the Holgon Gist, Aman or we begin the service in the Name of the Father and in the Son and the Holy Ghost Aman in English. Bid difference in Lutheran's.

[@LoriJMarshall]

Thank you. This was interesting.

[@oxh973]

I'm Lutheran and I'm not aware of a specific cross (outside of the synod logo).

[@BramptonAnglican]

Yay I love your guys videos.

[@arthaas1024]

Look up Bryan Wolfmeller how he explains Baptism and Lord's Supper and it comes from Bible and what Jesus said

[@adampetersen4795]

Closed communion is part of pastoral care. We believe the wine is the blood of Christ and the bread the body of Christ. If a person takes the body and the blood without discerning the real presence of Christ, they sin against Christ and His body. Through closed communion, the pastors are protecting those who haven't yet come to the revelation of the sacraments from God's judgment. It's done in love.

[@learntodrivenow]

Or you both could meet in the middle and both be Lutheran ;) middle makes sense!

[@LutheranAnswers]

Hey. I'd love to talk to you guys about the Lutheran view of the Lord's Supper, how it differs from transubstantiation, how our view overall differs from the Roman Catholic view, and answer any other questions you have. Great video, by the way! Was a fun watch.

[@jacqueandmegan]

We just interviewed Bryan Wolfmueller on that very topic!

[@LutheranAnswers]

@@jacqueandmegan I saw that after I left this comment! It was a great video.

[@markeggert2163]

I believe Africa has the most Lutherans.

[@aaronpierce6397]

Nice video. I would highly recommend going to a Sunday service as they are different from a midweek service. Both should go instead of just one of you.

[@johnmarquardt1991]

Next time they talk about differences in welding aluminum and steel.

[@annb9029]

Great info

[@suzziezhills]

I’m here. Ask me❤

[@hula691]

This is slow

[@nilsalmgren4492]

Missouri Synod believes that Pastor speaks for Jesus here on earth and that the Church leaders hold the keys to heaven.

[@arthaas1024]

That is not correct

[@nilsalmgren4492]

@@arthaas1024 No, that is correct which is why the Pastor says I forgive your sins and if a lay person is reading it, the words I forgive your sins are changed to a generic sins are forgiven, without saying I forgive your sins. Listen to it every Sunday, hopefully now you will cringe.