A Personal Examination of The Last of Us Part 2 (Spoilers)

[@WritingOnGames]

Hey everyone! Hope you're all doing OK during these wild times and that you enjoyed the video (and remember, this is just my opinion-if you had a different experience of the game that is totally fine). This piece marks five years since I started the channel and that's absolutely wild to me. I want to sincerely thank everyone who has ever watched a video or supported the channel in any way. The sense of purpose and hope this endeavour has given me has been more valuable than you can possibly know. It's made me a better person and I cannot thank you enough for supporting this weird, wild journey. I'd also like to say a massive thank you to my patrons. Times are rough right now so make sure you're good first and foremost, but if you feel you can, heading to patreon.com/writingongames can get you access to perks like early access to completely ad-free uploads, soundtracks (including the one I made for this episode which features a subtle tribute to the game's composer, Gustavo Santaolalla, points if you know what it is) and the like. Your support allows me to keep doing this and I cannot thank you enough for that. Stay safe!

[@agolloh]

Thanks for the unbiased review, it's much appreciated

[@11cat123]

Honestly I feel like this game could have been massively improved by literally taking Abby's story and making it its own campaign. Have Ellie's campaign, then at that theater scene have the credits roll, then pull a Neir Automata and tell people to play a new campaign from a different character's perspective to unlock the rest of the plot, and then having a third campaign after the Theater fight which is the Return of the King endgame with Ellie, I didn't think it was narrative gold when Neir did it but it is still much better than how they handled it here. I think if people knew going into the Abby half of the game that it was literally a full campaign by itself, one that while intertwines with Ellie's plot at points but is largely it's own narrative, people would be much more forgiving of the pacing resetting and be much less bitter playing as Abby because it wouldn't have been seen as much of a bait and switch. A friend gave me a heads up that the game was basically split into two campaigns with two different characters. And I think the lack of shock that I was not gonna see Ellie for 10 or so hours allowed me to enjoy and appreciate Abby's story much more. To the point where I was actively wanting to see what Abby did and not just playing to get it over with to get back to Ellie. The game does a poor job of communicating this, and with the short section in the prologue where you play as Ellie making it that much more jarring. The game also seems structured to fit better when alternating days between Ellie and Abby which could have been another possibility, and would actually more the most part solve the pacing issue, but maybe they changed it to what it is now because players couldn't keep track of the side stories and stuff happening when it was alternating between two perspectives and they were too far into the current script to do a rewrite. Not saying this would solve every other problem with the story but if they had to use that specific script, framing it as a proper campaign from the start instead of initially presenting it as a flash back section would lessen a lot of player's grievances. (Note that the games length didn't really bother me that much, I mainly play RPGs, most of which could probably have their narrative told in a quarter of the length that they are, and with JRPGs, always seem to revel in side characters at the expense of the actual plot along with having extremely obvious themes and messages repeatedly hitting you over the head, Persona 5 comes to mind as a particularly nasty offender. Not saying being used to a bloated plot makes bloated plots good, but it's probably the reason why I didn't really have any problems with the games length or how obvious its themes are)

[@Spidey-cw7kd]

Here's my take: The hatred that Ellie feels for Abby is an externalized reflection of the hatred Ellie harbors for herself. Why? Well Joel deeply hurt both Abby and Ellie in different ways and they both punished him for it. Ellie hates Abby for torturing Joel to death, especially because she didn't get a chance to restore her relationship with Joel. This is a mirror because Ellie also tortured Joel, she did it for years but in a different way, and I'd say in a way that waS more painful for Joel, and that was by disconnecting from him, She hates herself for torturing him like that and not restoring their relationship when there was still time. That's the real pain she has been trying to avoid facing during this entire revenge quest, she's like a drug addict usine revenee to avoid dealine with addict using revenge to avoid dealing with those painful feelings of regret. This is the realization she has while she is drowning Abby when she has the flashback to the scene on the porch with Joel and chooses to spare Abby. She's not just forgiving Abby, she's really most importantly forgiving herself and finally coming to terms with what happened between her and Joel, I thỉnk her leaving his guitar to rest în the house and walking away is Supposed to symbolically represent that she has forgiven Joel, made peace with what happened between them and is finally ready to move on and start a new life. I hated the end at first but after much deliberation I thỉnk it's actually really poetic. People saying the game is just about "revenge is bad" I thỉnk have really missed the point. I got this thread from the user cynical idealist

[@ObiWann90]

I disagree about everything you said about the Abby narrative. Sorry you didn't like it.

[@RareBirdGames]

I think this game has grown on me more than any other, and I am starting to see they took a risk to setup the story in part 3 in a far more interesting place. Normally this would be the end of a trilogy, but no. They are going beyond that and hoping to explore it even further. I think it's incredible to leave your main character in a place where they genuinely have grown, and now we can dig deeper. If they land the 3rd part, and stick the landing, it could be an incredible trilogy.

[@errigog2151]

I think people are focusing too much on the "revenge is bad" theme, because it was made to look so important in the marketing campaign. By the theater part, you are right, the game made its point. But the second part of the game isn't about vengeance anymore, it's about grief, and how we see people. Can a single action define them? Is Abby "good" now, because she tried to save two kids? Or is she the same woman who tortured a 50 year old man with a golf club? The game creates this uncomfortable feeling where you don't know who you want to see win. You know Ellie is capable of being an awesome person, yet you saw her do unspeakable things. Abby has killed Joel, yet you see her trying to save a couple kids. Are they square? Should they be forgiven? The game doesn't give an answer. Just like Ellie said to Joel, you can't just forgive them, but you can try. Letting the hate go is the main theme of the epilogue , not revenge or "your enemies have backstory". You can see Abby still has nightmares about her dad, and keeps being a faithful wlf soldier, a famous killer for an organization so obviously shady. She can't sleep at night because she hasn't left the hate go. At the same time Ellie only decides to stop her vengeance when she remembers she tried to let her hate of what Joel did go. If she could let that go, maybe she can let this go too. She won't forgive Abby, she may not understand her (since Ellie actually knows nothing about her dad), but in the end she understands that hate, grief and trauma weren't going to disappear if she killed Abby. They would only disappear if she "let go". Which doesn't mean forgiving or forgetting, it's a kind of emotion I can't really describe. It's like when a girl dumps you and after some time you realize she was right. You can't get angry, but you're not even sad anymore. You just say "ok" and move on.

[@GaZZuM]

I got more out of your comment than from the video itself! Thank you.

[@kiddiesquiggles9483]

THIS

[@polloarreguin3241]

Better explanation than the video itself 👏👏👏

[@crazyneonate8626]

Agreed, this video is a viable opinion but I love how you verbalized my disagreements with it so well :)

[@errigog2151]

Thank you all for the kind words :)

[@Joel-Haver]

I think boiling the themes down to "revenge is bad and enemies have a backstory" is a bit shortsighted. This is a game designed to instill hate into you and then make you question that hate. It is trying to show the audience how our hate is learned, like everyone else's, and encouraging us to begin the path to unlearning our hate through empathy and understanding. At its core, it's not a revenge story, but a story of forgiveness. Abby killing Joel isn't there to reveal Ellie's brutality and anger, it's there to show Ellie's deep want to forgive someone she loves and her lack of the tools to do so. When she loses Joel, she feels she lost her chance to forgive him. In Joel's wake, Ellie must now forgive herself. It's a game that shows us the things we lose when our hate stands in the way of our healing and it offers us a path to forgiveness through empathy and unlearning this hate.

[@thedreamcapture2681]

doesnt feel like a story feels more like a thought excercise or a challenge it fails to feel natural. I feel a lot of these problems are in the first but its easy to look past because of joel and ellie and the excellent performances betwee those characters.

[@Joel-Haver]

To each their own, but all of this was conveyed to me through a story that I thought was very compelling with great characters and performances. It’s not like I was sitting there thinking deeply about the message the whole time, I was wrapped up in the story and only in retrospect did I dissect the themes. I actually like it more than the first, the first was a cliche story with great characters and themes to uplift it to greatness. I felt this was a far more original story, with even stronger characters and themes to boot.

[@Joel-Haver]

SickBoi Yes, that’s exactly what I waited for. This is the perfect sequel, it’s very much a continuation of the story and themes set up by the first game. The Last of Us Part 1 was a story about love and this is too. It’s about the pain and hatred and violence that can spawn from love, and weighing up if love is worth it and if one can/should forgive themselves and others for the things they do out of love. The first game had characters doing rash things and defied expectations at climatic moments as well. The first game ends with a lie and this game is built around that same lie. The assertion that people already know how to forgive and unlearn their hate is absurd, no one does. Look at the world, look at yourself. Everyone harnesses hate in some form and it is all unlearnable. We all have work to do and we always will. The last thing I wanted from Part 2 was another cut and paste Joel and Ellie adventure, their story was continued beautifully without retreading old ground.

[@Joel-Haver]

Luke Nolin I understand what you’re saying, but I think his phraseology was a bit too limited. The game isn’t trying to teach us a lesson about “revenge” and “enemies”, it’s trying to tell us about ourselves, like all art. The average person won’t have “enemies” or “revenge” in the grander fictional sense, but they will have love and hate and chances for forgiveness. I think the way he phrased it completely undermined these universal qualities and framed it as if the game is only trying to teach us a lesson about itself. The best art has the power to confront you if you let it and taking away that power is counterproductive if your aim is to talk about it critically.

[@GamerAF2]

Yeah we all know what ND was trying to do. One would have to be real dense not to get the obvious story arc being rammed down our throats. It’s just the game failed and nothing about Abby or her dumb redemption arc makes me care about her. I personally feel this game was a complete failure and ultimately a waste of time

[@easterneagle5]

I think my interpretation of Abby is that she is Ellie if Ellie had been successful in carrying out her vengeance. She is going through the exact same process she is, but she is slightly further along than Ellie is, and by seeing her go through the process of overcoming her grief we are able to examine just what is causing Ellie her grief, since the two are of an extremely similar nature. They are both burdened the trauma of their past failures and overcoming this trauma through the healthy means is what allows them to move on with their lives and grow. By the time of Abby's Day 1 we see that taking vengeance on Joel did nothing to calm the grief she carried over the death of her father. She still has nightmares about arriving too late to save him, and all killing Joel did was fragment her friendship with the members of her group, especially Owen and Mel, as well as making her feel guilty at the senseless and brutal act of violence she partook in - something she herself tries to ignore. We learn that her sorrow is caused by her feelings of failure over her inability to save her father, that the nightmares she suffers from force her to revisit the day she was too late to do anything to save him, and that this failure of hers is the major reason she has such a hard time overcoming the trauma of her past. It's when she meets Lev and Yara that she actually begins upon the path to recovery. She finds herself repeating the nightmare from the day's before, only this time instead of her father's corpse, it is Yara's and Lev's she arrives too late to save. Once again she is experiences dread at the thought of being incapable of preventing death. This results in her dedicating herself wholly into her efforts to save the duo, as a way of making up her her failure to save her father. When she does finally make progress in saving Yara, she has a repeat of her nightmare, only this time when she arrives in the operating room her father is alive and well. Saving the two of them was what it took for her to begin healing her trauma, not the shallow act of taking revenge on Joel. Even when Lev asks her why she is going out of her way to save them, she responds that she is doing it for her own sake - and she is right. In short, by saving Yara and Lev, she is symbolically able to forgive herself for failing to save her father. When she does finally confront Ellie and is fully capable of killing her, she spares them, because taking revenge isn't what gave her peace the first time and it wouldn't help her this time either. She moves on with her life and overcomes her grief and her past failure, and even if she is not fully comfortable with her past, she at the least accepts it. You see this exact same process with Ellie. While for most of the game you are made to think that Ellie wants nothing more than to take out her anger on Abby in a similar way to how Abby wanted to take out her anger on Joel, you eventually discover that her grief is actually caused by her own failures as well. Like Abby with her father, Ellie's inability to save Joel haunts her, but as is later revealed, Ellie's biggest source of her grief was the fact that she never was able to fully forgive Joel before Abby killed him and made doing so impossible. Just as with Abby's continual nightmares after her murder of Joel, we see that Ellie doesn't come to peace when she carries out her revenge against Jordan, Nora, Owen, and Mel. Killing them does not quiet the trauma she is experiencing, and it doesn't help her come to terms with her failure to save or forgive Joel. In the epilogue, we see her finally confront Abby, and we see that she is barely focused on Abby at all. She turned Abby into a sort of symbol to defeat in the hopes that doing so would allow her to defeat her trauma, but she is wrong, and it wouldn't. It is only when she has Abby completely at her mercy that she remembers her last conversation with Joel - visually shown to us by a still frame from the scene - that she remembers why she is grieving in the first place. She gives up, and lets Abby go. She forgives her, and in doing so forgives herself for failing to forgive Joel. Abby needed to save Yara and Lev to come to peace with her failure to save her father, and Ellie likewise needed to save and forgive Abby to make up for her failure to save or forgive Joel. When we see Ellie in the epilogue, we see that she still isn't completely back to her usual self, but she is on the road to recovery. She is able to finally finish the song she and Joel shared, as well as finish a drawing of him in her journal - something her grief preventing her from doing for the entire game previously. In doing so she is finally able to put her trauma about his death and her failures to rest. She has definitely lost parts of herself, both mentally and physically, but she has survived her grief and can move on from it. Despite the bittersweetness, it is a fairly hopeful ending, especially when you discover that the ending originally more heavily implied that she was going to return to Dina and JJ. Keep in mind, this is all similar to Last of Us 1 and the trials Joel had to past through the overcome his grief and trauma. If Last of Us 1 is about Joel overcoming his failure to save Sarah by saving Ellie, then Last of Us 2 is about Ellie overcoming her failure to forgive Joel by forgiving Abby. The two games go hand in hand; part 2 it is a true sequel to part 1 in both story and theme, and I do think the series is better for its existence. ONE MORE THING: If Hamish sees this, then I want to thank him for this video. June 30th is my birthday, and it is also the day I finished this game and he published this video. Rather than celebrate my birthday, I spent much of the that day in a bit of a slump while I putzed around, contemplating the game's themes and motives in an attempt to come to terms with my thoughts on it, which consumed almost all my mind for the entire day. Watching this helped me come to terms with my thoughts on the game and reflect on what it meant to me. Thank you Hamish for helping me with that.

[@christorres9643]

What a great take, though I'm pretty biased since it aligns with my read of the story so well. Just wish more people could take such a nuanced stance on a nuanced story. Seeing a lot of "but muh ellie, muh Joel."

[@ingeniousclown]

I really enjoyed this comment. Thanks for sharing it.

[@theoneandonlyjs19]

Beautifully argued, thank you for this, even if we differ slightly in opinion

[@hnthai90]

Best comment, people like u need to multiple.

[@CuZtuga]

Wow finally someone that actually analizes the story instead of going "omg 20 hours and i cant even kill abby what a slap in the face to the fans reeee"

[@GlennDavey]

I think everyone forgets how brutal Tess and Joel were in the first game before Ellie joined the story. The Last of Us II shows us more of that brutal side of the world that Joel mostly tried to protect Ellie from in the first game. We can now understand how Tess and Joel became the way they did, after living for 20 years in that world.

[@neatznotso7424]

And Ellie isn't a kid anymore, it doesn't take long for that world to harden you, it feels like it would be a real struggle to stay not only sane but to not turn into a complete monster.

[@m0zric]

@@neatznotso7424 TLoU as a franchise is really devoted to make the player experience humanity at its most horrid and its most tender. I really appreciate the contrasts, since the extreme world they wade through demands it narratively. The way part 2 portrays grief is relentlessly human and truthful. Choosing violence and vitriol to mask one’s childlike sorrow and emptiness, and loneliness. I think the game is an absolute masterpiece, not only because it dares sacrifice dramaturgic convention in service of artistic expression, but also because those ideas and feelings and themes are so hauntingly depicted.

[@apathy2454]

@@frogglen6350 what ? Part 2 is brutal as hell stop the cap example Jesse dying like he was nothing a tragically realistic death showing life is very unpredictable and brutal

[@marcushopkins8558]

I just realized the last time you play as Joel he’s riding out to the sunset ..... man that hits me 😞

[@katchau7408]

Looks like Arthur last Ride kkkkk

[@REDACTEDrose184]

@@katchau7408 ikr

[@KingMoeJo]

ME TOO 😭

[@razbuten]

I say this with love, but I've never disagreed with you more lol. Obviously, my experience with the game won't change how you experienced the game, but the way I viewed things and the way certain moments landed seem like they worked way more for me than they did for you (which is part of why I love the mere existence of this game so much? It has undoubtedly bred some terrible discourse, BUT it has led to a lot of fascinating discussion as well). To address some stuff, I think you are definitely right that this game wanted to explore themes more than anything else, but I think simplifying it down to "violence is bad" sells those themes short. To me, it is far more about forgiveness than anything else. More specifically, it is about trying to forgive and learning how to live with the idea that someone has wronged you. That is one of the reasons why Abby's section worked so well. I had this weird mix of liking her and understanding why she did what she did but still being disgusted and disturbed by what she did. I had to learn as a player how to live with this mixed feeling of being upset with a character for doing something (justified but) terrible while still rooting for her in other ways. I also think that having some narrative distance made the actual confrontation in the theater far more terrifying. In that fight, Ellie hits this weird balance of being the character I've known for so long (sneaking and crafting in the same way I would) but she also feels entirely unrecognizable to the kid I tried so hard to protect. There are a lot of design choices that admittedly feel frustrating in the moments you are playing the game, but after reflecting on it, it feels like those are intentional choices to have the player feel like the characters. Like, the game being as long as it is had me feeling fucking exhausted, and I just wanted it to be over because it was all so Much, so when I hit that shot of Ellie in the water, I was like "oh. that me." I've rambled long enough here, and this is obviously a KZbin comment, which, short of a twitter response, is one of the worst ways to communicate a nuanced take lol. If you ever wanna chat shit about Part II (or, honestly, Hamish, literally anything) hmu.

[@Soul-Burn]

One of my favorite gaming video essay people commenting on another one of my favorite gaming video essay people? Nice! It's always nice seeing different well thought views on a subject; would love to hear a podcast/video of you two discussing this game.

[@casualfilth2241]

I also had a lot of good moments with the game and going in blind without the information about the leaks (I literaly was lucky enough to learn about the leaks after I beat it) gave me a more untouched persononal opinion. I liked it, it was imo worse than the first one but overall a good game the only major problem I have is that the end should have been a player choice it would have been more powerful imo but maybe the message they wanted to tell would have been lost that way. edit: ah btw love your vids keep up the good work

[@DrFelix125]

Video when????

[@cringeclown4087]

Game was shit, let go of your nostalgia.

[@lilmupp875]

@@cringeclown4087 sorry u felt that wat lmao u obviously didn't learn anything

[@DougieJR]

As someone who played on Hard, watching you waste shotgun shells on distant enemies and firing them three times on one human enemy gave me toothache.

[@afecx8249]

Yeah same lmao no clue why I decided hard as my first playthrough but I did lol

[@kyle5244]

@@afecx8249 Added to the grueling nature of the game, the game is unforgiving so you actually feel like you're in there scavenging for supplies. Playing on Hard also makes each kill feel personal, that's my take

[@kyle5244]

@@afecx8249 Added to the grueling nature of the game, the game is unforgiving so you actually feel like you're in there scavenging for supplies. Playing on Hard also makes each kill feel personal, that's my take.

[@Hammy000]

I played on grounded mode my first playthrough, which reminds me, DONT DO THAT. I deleted the game once I got to Santa Barbara, I was just broken :' )

[@zaydagoat-es5vq]

I feel you bruh playing on hard-grounded is no joke

[@charlest.5742]

I got something different out of Abby's story. It wasn't just about the writers trying to show the player that "Hey! Everybody has a story!" - although that definitely was a part of it. Abby's section was a self-contained plot complete with a beginning, middle and end that not only was meant for you to relate with Abby but to feel the way Abby did - examining the dangers of tribalism in stark contrast to the first game's examination and critique of lone survivalism. It also served to draw parallels to Ellie, although I think it mostly served as a continuation of Ellie's story. What was gonna happen to Ellie after she sought revenge? Would she get the satisfaction she was hoping for? And I think Abby's story thoroughly answers that question.

[@SoMarioTho]

I agree. And so much of Abby's story was about trying to fill the hole that killing Joel didn't actually fill like she thought it would. She only helps Yara and Lev because she feels such guilt about how she handled the Joel stuff, something she alludes to more than once.

[@dAvrilthebear]

Agree with you both, but I wish Abby was shown to feel more remorse from killing Joel.

[@colinboxall9782]

The contrasts between tribalism and lone survival, how tf did I not pick up on that. This game just gets better the more you analyse it.

[@MrMejia187]

Wow nice connection. Abby's story is sort of like a "what if Ellie got her revenge?"!

[@hannemanart]

I actually found Abby's story the best parts of the entire game. I really ended up liking her and I hope for a spin-off ........ or her and Ellie somehow crossing paths where they need to help one another. I'm really happy I came into this game totally oblivious to the controversy

[@jonathancoit]

The point of showing you Abby's story wasn't just to say that enemies have backstories. Through Abby's story you are watching Ellie in the future. Abby has accomplished her goal. She has fulfilled her obsession with revenge. And even still, she is still haunted by the PTSD of her father's death. She is having to deal with the repercussions of her choices. Her love interest is now with someone new and they are expecting a child. Some of her friends are regretting their choice to got to Jackson at all and it is impacting their relationships. It is showing us that Ellie's mission may be all for not. That even killing Abby won't silence her nightmares. While the game did feel overly long at times, I wasn't quite ready to be done with Abby's story by the end of Day 3. Her story was my favorite part of the game personally. But I believe that cutting back to the theater and forgoing all of Abby's story would have detracted from the game. Great video and I do agree with most of your points.

[@shubhmayc]

Deal with her choice? ..she doesn't have a single strain of remorse for killing Joel unlike Owen..Abby is a highly unlikable character that they force you to empathize with ..where largely gamers didn't care for..maybe it would have worked earlier but gamers are more intelligent now having played numerous great narrative games.. TLOU 2 thinks it smart and intelligent but in fact its a manipulative narrative and no one having that ND Kool-Aid anymore

[@rehyanrivera164]

Shubhmay Chauhan. She doesn’t need to feel remorse for killing Joel. She got her revenge. What she isn’t feeling is fulfilled. Killing Joel didn’t do anything for her. She was so obsessed and her obsession got her nothing. Her father is still dead. The fireflies still disbanded. There is still no cure.

[@shubhmayc]

@@rehyanrivera164 ok now she is a straight up a psychopath ? the game manipulates you to care for ..how do you know she feels nothing..there is no retrospection..In the case of Ellie is physically and mentally tortured ...she infact has sex with her ex who has a BABY coming..she is deplorable ..I don't what the game's message was? are we feel anything or care for her friends ( definitely intended by ND in the most shameful and hamsfisted way) or just feel ambivalent in case of both it doesn't work

[@saebcq1429]

​@@shubhmayc "the game manipulates you to care for", yes, that's what most stories do... I fail to see your overarching point here and it feels like you have some things mixed up. Abby doesn't have to feel remorse for killing Joel, just like she doesn't feel much remorse when killing Scars. Just like Ellie doesn't give a shit when killing WLF. Except Joel actually meant something bigger than a faction war for her. If you're arguing that she feels no remorse for brutally executing him, then sure... but the point the game drives home by the end is that vengeance will dehumanize you to a large extent. The only reason Dina and Ellie are alive by the end of the game is because Lev stopped Abby from killing them both, full knowing that Dina is pregnant. So yeah, she can be a bit of a "psychopath". I'm not saying this game's storytelling is anything close to perfect or that the characters are iron-clad, but most of what Abby does is justified from the perspective of the brutal world she lives in. And to your point about her sleeping with her ex, why does Ellie get a pass for macking on her best friend's ex-girlfriend of 4 years? Point is, they're both shitty people and I stopped rooting for either of them halfway through the game.

[@shubhmayc]

@@saebcq1429 yes now you are getting it when you mention an author or a movie where you have no agency ..here it is literally a videogame you are playing..an interactive movie and there is a narrative dissonance in it because the player is playing the complete opposite( they have agency) of what the story is hammering down profound themes in you..It is jarring and TLOU2 is downright unsuccessful because the moment you get to the theatre most of the gamers went head on and got shot by Ellie..and that therein lies the failure to emphatize and care of Abby

[@SoMarioTho]

I loved that the theater was a huge cliffhanger that wasn't resolved for another 10 hours. I was pretty impressed at the balls it took to do that, story-wise, and I thought it helped give that collision moment almost a mythic feeling. As each day as abby passed and the stories intertwined, the dread of Abby catching up to that moment grew stronger, like a freight train you couldn't stop. I loved it.

[@usul573]

On the other hand, I feel like going back and forth between Abby and Ellie up until that moment would have been more effective in character development. I find most of playing as Abby just a chore to get back to that moment. You can call it "mythic" if you like, but what does that mean?

[@TheDudeSmashTrash]

@@usul573 i know this is a two-year-old comment but just wanted to chime in. I initially thought that going back and forth between Ellie and Abby like that would've been better for the game's pacing. But the more I thought about it, I realized that switching between them regularly would've created the opposite problem, and we would've never felt like we were connecting to either's story. Regular, frequent interruptions, even if those interruptions are briefer, would've made connecting with either story nearly impossible

[@alcerdemon9768]

She said “don’t cause others pain because of your own personal hatred” I believe people can take a lot more from Evangelion nowadays

[@Yenresh]

Just finished it again yesterday.

[@Manganization]

Kinda difficult to not cause others pain from personal hatred, especially if it's coming from the way other people treat you. Telling a person who is hurting something like this is not going to help them. It's something that's easy to say when one is not the one going through those problems, which would most likely make that person react even worse, since his suffering is being ignored even now.

[@TSDT]

@@Manganization as someone who has been through personal hatred, caused others pain and has the blessing of hindsight, I think it remains wise advice. The best revenge is a life well lived. Which makes the ending of the game so damn hard to bear.

[@Bomberfish795]

@@Yenresh gee man, it got so depressing for me that I can't even bring myself to watch that masterpiece again, so kudos there

[@zionfreedom9149]

What a typical and cliche message for a game previously about finding hope in a place of darkness. TLOU 1: Open your heart up to love even if it's been ripped out by the harsh cold world TLOU 2: hate bad

[@QuestionableObject]

"... grand thematic statements that are catastrophically obvious..." I'd agree with you but I've seen so many people who completely missed that themeing I think we're taking it for granted.

[@BriarPatchNyra]

I see most people say it's a revenge story, when it's far more a story about empathy and letting go of destructive cycles/negative influences.

[@QuestionableObject]

@@BriarPatchNyra But it is a revenge story... A tragic revenge story. It's a story about how revenge and repeating traumatizing acts on others in that revenge is a cycle that never ends until someone puts their foot down. Every time Ellie does something horrendous it's supposed to be a gut-punch, you're supposed to not want her to keep going, you want her to turn back and stop this rampage of hate. And no it's not a "lol ur bad player cuz u keep playing" it's the story, the story is about that journey of revenge, it's not about you as the player, it's a story about Ellie and Abby and the people around them, you're just in the driver's seat, it's like being in a theater play, reprising the role of Ellie or Abby or whoever else you happen to be.

[@BriarPatchNyra]

GoldenFalcon2 I think as a movie instead of game would be a wise idea for sure. However I don’t think you HAVE to kill them all. I’ve gone through sections where I had one kill at most, I’ve not killed any dogs. Stealth is an option, it’s hard af (or maybe I’m just bad lol, impatience is a problem for me) but it’s an option. And they establish multiple times the kill on sight thing, so that’s survival too.

[@robrobusa]

@@BriarPatchNyra This right here. "Revenge is bad" is of course a statement made during the game, but it's the less important one, compared to "Humanity needs empathy".

[@KianOntong13]

@@GoldenFalcon2 the final section you're fighting against horrible slave owners who literally crucify runaways and feed people to infected. So at least to me it's pretty justifiable to kill them all. In the rest of the game as others have pointed out like with the wlf and the scars you can choose to sneak past them and a lot of the killing is done in self defence in some capacity.

[@this.is.spencer]

I've seen a few people reference Spec Ops: The Line or just playerblaming for violence in a few different places, but I don't really think the game is saying anything about the player's violence. Obviously violence and its effects (most notably its cyclical nature) are major themes here, but I think the game makes it clearly that the violence it cares about is Ellie's and not the player's. I'd say the biggest evidence of this is when it's revealed (halfway through her section) that she knew about Joel and the Fireflies before the events of the game. For me at least, I thought there would be that moment of revelation where Ellie has to second guess her motivations. But with the much quieter realization that she knew all along, you're confronted with the fact that, knowing exactly who these people are and what they wanted, she pursued her ends anyway. Taking away that potential mitigation to make the choice more obviously Ellie's is just one way the game makes it clearer that she is making the choices here, not the player. You're not controlling Ellie, you are playing her story.

[@Exel3nce]

Which is even more nonsensical, while spec ops did a fantastic job in that matter

[@joshualane1716]

You didn't have any choice in Spec Ops: The Line either. The only way to be the 'good guy' in that game was to not play it.

[@benl2140]

@@joshualane1716 That's not entirely true. While the big moment that everyone talks about in Spec Ops lacks any player choice, there are smaller moments in which the game will present you with choices without explicitly telling you. For example (spoiler)... After Lugo is killed, it looks like the game is forcing you to gun down a crowd of civilians to progress. However, if you fire some warning shots, the crowd will scatter. This is a brilliant way to approach player choice that I wish more games used.

[@this.is.spencer]

@@joshualane1716 sure, but my comment was more about character agency in TLOU than player agency in either game. There are signals in TLOU that violence is bad (such as enemies calling out the names of their fallen friends), and it's normal for a player to feel bad about their depiction, but I don't think TLOU is using them to say something about the player as much as the characters. Some games are more concerned with presenting the protagonist as an avatar or surrogate for the player, others reserve the player character as a person in their own right. TLOU is very much in the second camp, which is not a good position from which to comment on the player.

[@zeroskaterz92]

Spoken like someone that never actually play Spec Ops: The Line and it really shows. lmao

[@SpoonOfDoom]

While I agree that the game overall felt a bit longer than it had to be, and that maybe it tried to juggle a bit too many plot points at times, I disagree hard that the big Abby section was unnecessary. Yes, we could have left it at the short hospital flashback, came back to the theater and would superficially know that she had good reasons and all that, but you still *were* Ellie at this point. Even though Abby is justified, maybe even more so than Ellie, you as a player would still want to defeat her, or take the high road and forgive her or whatever, but in any way completing *Ellie's* story. That was not the case though, because after spending all that time playing as Abby, when we returned to the theater, in my mind I suddenly kind of was both of them. I didn't really want either of them to win, or lose. I am 100% certain that I would have felt very differently if I hadn't walked in her shoes all that time, basically spent another entire game with her, even if the story being told is the same. That part is, in my mind, not only equating her with Ellie even in terms of gameplay (same progression, similar weapons, similar amount of screentime), but it forces you as a player to not only acknowledge "the enemy has a backstory", but to actually experience that backstory, and bond with that enemy over time. My gut instinct was that you're right, maybe it would have been better if it was more entertwined, but the more I think about it, the more I feel that this first bit of rejection to playing as Abby is part of the point. You spent the entire game on a crusade to kill her, she was the final boss you were trying to reach, only for the game to then suddenly turn around completely and go out of its way to make her a relatable character - an effect that I think was very deliberate and would not be possible quite as easily if it had been intertwined from the beginning. The game explicitly does not allow you to brush it off with "yeah, she's justified and has a backstory, I get it, back to the showdown". It won't let you go before you not only know, but *feel* that she is no different from Ellie. This structure was a big risk and obviously did not work for everybody, as evidenced in this video, but for me it was very effective. Yes, I felt bad when I killed a dog and the owner screamed "SOMEONE KILLED BEAR!", and it felt like it was a real person and a real dog for a moment. But the impact was much bigger for me when I then later switched sides, and pet and played with Bear, because suddenly it wasn't just an enemy anymore, no matter how humanized an enemy it was before. Same goes for the characters both interact with. They were humanized while I played as Ellie, but they were *humans* when I played as Abby. I only finished the game last night, and I'm not quite sure yet how I feel about it. I think I liked the first one more, though I think part 2 is a good continuation - if not a perfect one maybe. Edit: I just want to add that I don't mean to disrespect the video or your opinion in any way, just wanted to give my perspective on this bit. I know tone can be misread easily in text, AND English isn't my first language, so I felt I should maybe clarify that explicitly.

[@BoBennings]

I think this is excellent and I agree with a lot of what you have to say! I definitely understand how the pacing might not work for everyone but I think it was crucial to split the player between these two identities.

[@TheSmorris92]

Same

[@dorkangel1076]

Likewise. Even in the combat tutorial I didn't want to play as Abby as even though I had avoided spoilers I felt it was leading her towards people I cared about. When she kills Joel so brutally I hated her though did note she goes out of her way to stop her friends killing Tommy or Ellie. When it jumps to her half way I didn't want to play as Joels killer, I wanted to get back to the theatre to see what happened next. But it also intrigued me as we'd heard snippets of what she'd been up to in Ellies story and i wanted to find out what happened. As her story progressed I identified with her more and more. Some people felt it was cheap but I don't think so. The game doesn't want you to pick a side, just see and understand each side. She's not made out to be a saint, just not the monster we saw at the start. We get to see why she killed Joel. We get to see how revenge shaped her life up to that point. What it cost her and once it was done how she still got no peace. We got to see her question her actions with and those of the WLF. We get to see that sometimes she was a piece of shit but she also brave and loyal, as are her friends and she risks her life for people she once considered enemies. By the end I really connected with her and was dreading returning to the theatre as I didn't want any if them to die. I think this section needed to be as long as it was to give us any chance of relating to her as by this point we'd had a game and a half plus a dlc to get to know Ellie. It also let us see some really interesting bits of Seattle that we wouldn't see otherwise. When it came to fighting Ellie in the Theatre though I still didn't want to (and died a few times because I didn't want to hit Ellie) but I understood why it made sense in the story and when she spares Dina and Ellie I was sold on her. When it came to the final fight at the end I ended up dying a few times because I didn't want to hit Abby. The only thing I thought was sad was they never talked. Ellie still though Abby killed Joel because of the cure, not because Joel killed her dad and Abby doesn't know Joel was like a dad to Ellie. I kind of hoped Ellie might have been captured by the Rattlers and they could have ended up in adjoining cages or something and talked it out before teaming up to break out and save Lev together, but the story took a different turn...

[@SoMarioTho]

You're right on the structure. We needed to play as much as Abby as we did with Ellie, or else everyone would have still wanted Abby dead. The story wants you to feel sick about them fighting eachother. It wants you to want the violence to stop, whereas 10 hours ago you were dreaming of splattering Abby all over the wall. Now, suddenly, you're thinking twice and that's what I loved about it.

[@JC111414]

I think it would have been better if it was Day 1 Ellie Then Day 1 Abby Day 2 Ellie Then Day 2 Abby Day 3 Ellie Day 3 Abby And finally the flashback of her father before showing us the theater scene. Pacing killed this game for a lot of people

[@Blizzic]

It’s really weird how one of the first criticisms you level at the game is that it’s unconcerned with character, and yet when it devotes hours of story and gameplay to developing Abby, Lev, and the rest, you say that it’s unnecessary and just there to make a point.

[@ONshowON]

People don't know what they want :)

[@marlonbrando1631]

Writing on Games' issues with the hours and hours of story and gameplay for Abby, Lev and the rest is that this time is used to enforce the theme/allegory of the story, that revenge is bad but not to develop the characters themselves. All comparisons are very heavy-handed in their approach to draw very obvious parallels between both sides. Like he stated that the bond between Abby and Lev/Lily is set up to exactly mirror Joel and Elli's however while the latter had a year to bond, the former have known each other for a day and a half but in the end act like they have this long and storied history. More or less are both Abby and Lev forced into the mould the writers want them to be to serve the themes of the story instead of letting them be their own characters. The other WLF side characters are also just there to serve as various blood sacrifices on the altar of theme. Mel was set up to die from the beginning as a mirror to Dina's pregnancy and all the characterisation of the other Abby posse rings hollow when one remembers that you probably killed most of them six or more hours ago and can hardly remember their names.

[@UpgrayeDDDDDD]

I think the whole "I get it, I get it, I get it" premise is far too analytical. Of course you get it, but just showing a single flashback of Abby would have very little emotional impact. Same as Joels death, if it was Dina instead, nobody would have cared, but everybody would "have gotten it".

[@HZOV4]

@Ali Shabbiri have you ever seen pulp fiction? It's that kind of directing. The story is told in a non linear way, similar to part 2

[@HZOV4]

@Ali Shabbiri hahaha that scene was gold. BTW everyone has his own opinion bro, I actually loved the game. But I guess you don't... Everyone has its point of view

[@c_brigante]

@Ali Shabbiri If they had mix Ellie and Abby parts you wouldn't hate Abby as you should to be emotionally synchronized with Ellie And you definetly should watch Pulp Fiction, it's a masterpiece

[@guzgonzalez6982]

It is not about getting it, the idea is living it

[@HZOV4]

@@frogglen6350 explain what you said or shut up

[@aslipp]

Thanks for your thoughts. For me, I knew as soon as I looked at Abby's crafting/skill menu that her "campaign" would be given equal weight to Ellie's section in Seattle, so I just... settled into it, I guess? It was honestly a welcome relief from the relentlessness of Ellie's pursuit of revenge, and ended up being some of my favorite parts of the game. She definitely gets the best gameplay moments - all of Abby's Day 2 is an absolute standout. I guess it doesn't work for some people, but it absolutely did for me.

[@Keeneye47_Wolfkeen]

This is why I don't agree with the idea that Abby is irredeemable or something. In fact she knows she's a bad person, even saying the only reason she went back for those two kids was because of guilt. We even see this in the nightmare she suffers practically every night. And by the time we make it to the end of her story, in a way, she became Joel. Now having a reason to fight, now having someone to care for and now having a lot more to lose. Granted her relationship with Lev is a lot shorter than Joel and Ellies, but I can still see this since at the end, she would do anything for Lev, even do something she didn't want to do at the time. In my mind? I think the story should've been more about these two and less about Joel and Ellie. Is why I kept saying to people that if they were to do a sequel, let it be someone new. Let their story end the way it did and let us explore a new person, a new place and a new perspective.

[@potatoesblink3299]

Abby's POV filled a hole in my heart. Finally a story that focuses more on redemption and love. OK FINE. Prolonging Abby's segments just to make a point about enlightening the player will annoy most of the players But to me, I didn't want to just get the point, I wanted to see someone fight for love and redemption. I clearly wasn't gonna get that from Ellie. Abby, on the other hand, never seemed to fail me in that regard. I get it. Most of you will always irrationally hate Abby as a character. Its ok. but as someone who loves Joel and Ellie so much, I was just compelled by Abby side. And Laura Bailey's killed it.

[@cxruptexternity]

@@potatoesblink3299 people think that the whole game is based on revenge which is wrong because in the end its about forgiveness and learning. Ellie kills alot of people to avenge joel and starts to understand why joel did what he did because she is pretty much doing the same thing that joel did in the first game. Ellie forgives abby because she gets the chance of forgiveness she never got with joel. Abby and ellie have similiar storys as both wanted to avenge their father figure and both lost nearly everything which shows that revenge dosent bring you in the light but instead buries you deeper into the ocean where you see nothing but darkness.

[@DMJ1978]

@@potatoesblink3299 Including Abby was what made this game work IMO. Loved the second half.

[@DMJ1978]

@@reed1645 "I don't know if I could ever forgive you. But I would like to try". That part at the end between Ellie and Joel sums up the games story pretty well IMO. She even sees Joel face when she's drowning Abby. Sure is a sad ending.

[@nezfromhki]

I feel very conflicted about the last half of the game. TL;DR version: I understand both sides of the discussion, and ultimately think the story worked for me while acknowledging its flaws. I disagree with you on the notion that one simple flashback of showing Abby's dad get killed would be enough to garner the player's empathy for a character they've hated for the past 10 hours. For some it could work for sure, but seeing how many players seem to hate her even at the end of the game as they are blinded by their affection for Joel, I do think the Seattle portion of her story is necessary. For me it worked, at the end of the game I honestly liked Abby more than Ellie, and at the final fight tried to let Abby kill Ellie for an alternate ending or something. BUT at the same time from a pure pacing viewpoint the halfway point is problematic, as the story climaxes without resolution and then starts another nearly identically long slow building of tension towards the climax, only to then have even more story after that climax. So it is very understandable that many feel like the latter half drags, which obviously hurts the story they are trying to tell with Abby. The solution many (me at times included) seem to think would solve this would be do switch between the two narratives more earlier on, instead of splitting them into two different halves of the game. While this could work, I understand why ND decided to go with the current structure. This way you are in Ellie's shoes for a good while, feeling the hatred she feels and motivated by the same anger she is for the first half until the rug is pulled from under you. If they would have switched between the POVs more earlier, it would have quickly begun to hurt Ellie's sections as the dissonance between the player and character would have been constant and distracting. Now in the released game you only (deliberately) feel that true disconnect with her towards the last portion instead of most of the game. (This experience obviously varies from person to person, but my point is that this is probably what the developers were going for.) So I guess my ultimate point is that while I understand why many people dislike the structure of the game, I personally still understand Naughty Dog's intentions and appreciate them, as the story did work for me. Even the Abby+Lev relationship was something I enjoyed a lot.

[@bluemagic6919]

I must say I have also understood why naughty dog took this very structure and build up the game to this. But that caused that the game felt unnaturally long. I think a DLC would have been better for abbys arc.

[@Giannih-mr8nz]

This, to me, is the only way to correctly look at the choice they made, even if I am a bit more skeptical on the chronological structure serving the game better. They tried something really difficult and it didn't appeal everyone. I believe how people perceive Joel's death heavily influences the second part experience. If peeps are like "I want to murder the b**ch" for 10 hours straight, the entire game probably falls apart for them.

[@kiopaulosanandres2837]

I actually liked Abby more than Ellie

[@christorres9643]

@@Giannih-mr8nz See, it's funny, because that's me. I HATED abby. HATED. Like, tears when Joel died hatred. And they made me love her more than Ellie by the end. I think a lot of people were truly blinded by thier love for Joel. To me, Ellie became the bad guy by the end. I've also heard about people not liking that Ellie lost everything in the end but this added to the realism for me. I can understand why Ellie felt what she felt, I can even sympathize and empathize, but it doesn't change the reality of what pursuing that will do for you. And I'm someone wholly on Joel's side at the end of 1. I would have done the same in his shoes. Doesnt make it right, ir free you from the consequences. I love both games lol

[@ThegamingZerii]

@@bluemagic6919 Agreed. I think the best way to do it would have been the one flashback to young Abby, and the rest of the Abby story in a later dlc. It would have gotten the point across, the full Abby story could have been told, but the player would not be frustrated with a massive cliffhanger for 10 hours.

[@jayoninja2505]

I feel this game could have worked with a nier automata-esque structure, where all of abby's story is a second perspective-changing playthrough after you see the ending

[@Feversome]

I feel like if Abby had her own game that released before The Last of Us part 2, this game would have had more impact.

[@Mad_Snacks]

That’s a pretty good idea. I liked the game and the story overall, but felt that the pacing was by far the weakest part of the game. All of the momentum comes crashing to a halt when you switch to Abby and it makes the game feel too long. If they had just followed Ellie all the way to the end, roll credits and then boom, you’re playing as Abby, I think that would be way cooler and work way better

[@Beatness121]

Except that a huge number of people wouldn't play beyond the first playthrough, missing the point of the game...

[@BackfallGenius]

@@Beatness121 Exactly but imagine how perspective-shifting it would be for the few that do play it. The entire second half, while really fun gameplay-wise, comes at a time when all players want to know what happens in the theatre. All players are left questioning "Why am I playing as Abby?" / "Why is this happening?" / "Where is this going?" in the entire second half. Imagine if the resolution happened first and then you got to play as Abby and then got her perspective once you've fully experienced Ellie's story. It's an interesting thought for sure.

[@iplaygunz1]

Don't know about that. Abby is such a hated character from the get go that I doubt anyone would play her B-plot after experiencing Ellie's. I think if the game just alternated between their storylines throughout instead of swapping half-way through it might have fixed some of the issues with the structure.

[@dannyboi866]

There’s only two guitars in Seattle ??? Those being in a music store in downtown and in a theater, and it’s in the theater because a band was supposed to play before the outbreak. The third guitar is Ellie’s, found by Joel. I don’t think it’s impossible to find two guitars in a city ???

[@ArdaLek]

Seeing people who hated the guitar sections is proof that anything on this planet will get hated on no matter what lol.

[@wajster2959]

A band that used one guitar and nothing else? If not then why is the guitar the only instrument there and somehow in pristine condition? Same with the music store all instruments are somewhat damage whereas the guitar is pristine and sat on its own In a spot fitting for the cutscene including it

[@dannyboi866]

@@wajster2959 There were other instruments, did you even play the game LOL Dina even gets on the drums cmon now. So nitpicky, let it keep bothering you.

[@wajster2959]

@@dannyboi866 lmao I’m talking about the theatre having only one guitar and nothing else how’s a band supposed to perform with nothing but a single guitar and yes it’s nit picky but this game has so many contrivances that it becomes an issue

[@dannyboi866]

@@wajster2959 LOL sorry the number of guitars ruined the game for u

[@KevIn-ns4jw]

Oh wow. You voiced exactly how I feel in a very reasonable manner.

[@ManCrushMondayTJ]

Is that truly how you feel or do you not want to think for yourself lmao

[@wajster2959]

@@ManCrushMondayTJ or maybe it’s possible for people to share opinions lmao

[@matt4193]

Finally a review on point about what's good and bad about Part 2. Nothing but respect for you, sir.

[@Bluezbreakr2]

No kidding. I'm not a fan of the original game admittedly, but it's been pretty tiring seeing people either hyperbolically praise or absolutely trash on this game. A good, balanced take is refreshing.

[@saloonboone]

Noah Caldwell Gervais did an excellent video on both games, highly recommended!

[@mastrchief1020]

Videogamedunkey's review is pretty balanced as well

[@Exel3nce]

@@Bluezbreakr2 even tho its quiet difficult, because ...you know , its a mess. Aside from the technical stuff, you can only say so much positive

[@ChorfTV]

@@reed1645 I'm pretty sure that was a joke review.

[@bladechild2449]

There's simply no way the story would've worked with shoe horning Abby's section in via cutscenes. Like, seriously, people who consider themselves to be students of story theory keep pursuing this angle, and it's frustrating how they can't see how that would never, ever work, given the emotional value attributed to Abby is literally 100m below sea level in the negative. If they had cut Abby's campaign and just continued on from Ellie when they finally meet up at the theater, and then continue as is, the Reeing from the Twitter chuds would have been tenfold what it is now.

[@Artmigu]

This. When I got to the theater scene playing as Abby, it was a genuinely surreal moment, where I literally could not decide who I wanted to win the fight. I feel that Abby's section had to be as long as it was to build up to that moment. Also, I think having to that theater scene not switch back to Ellie's POV but instead stay as Abby's, was a bold but really cool choice. It's like the game doesn't give you the chance to fall back onto Ellie's side and forget what Abby's gone through, creating the ambiguous feeling I mentioned.

[@lukenolin1105]

BladeChild I mean, to be fair, I don’t think he meant that the story would be better if you literally just cut Abby’s Seattle section out and left everything else the same. If they had made a change like that there’s no way the story would’ve just “continued as is”, and I think he’s probably aware of that. I think he was more so just saying that the game might’ve been an overall tighter and more satisfying experience if it had gone for a “less is more” approach to humanizing Abby, and rewrote some stuff to make that work. But easier said than done I guess. If the story we got worked for you, I can see why you might find that statement stupid, but I think what he was getting at might’ve fixed some issues that a ton of people had with this story. But, no going back now, so if what we got worked for you, more power to ya.

[@ArdaLek]

@@lukenolin1105 I wish everybody was like you man, Naughty Dog gave us such amazing masterpieces over the years and this game's quality is no short of a masterpiece. It's so sad to see metacritic user reviews giving the game 0 and 1 saying they will never play it. The amount of love and work that went into this game is beyond comprehension and seeing people just hate on the people who worked so hard on it is sad. Consctructive critisicm is more than welcome but just hating on the game without even playing it and not praising the phenomenal parts of it really bothers me.

[@lucidbeats6522]

@@ArdaLek same here dude.

[@neatznotso7424]

@@ArdaLek the main thing that bothered me were all the death threats that Laura Bailey received just for playing a character, I love gaming, I get being passionate about a game, but it felt so shitty knowing there are gamers out there willing to send real life people death threats about fictional characters its so damn shitty and disgusting. Everyone's allowed an opinion, no game is for everyone, but to send death threats? They belong in one of the many skip bins you see in tlous2.

[@awesomeanimal]

I think you make a lot of valid points about the pacing and I also appreciate your criticisms being a lot more constructive than most others on the internet right now. But I'd like to provide a slightly different take on Abby's adventure and why it's much stronger than most realize. On a surface level, you're right that it's making the point that the bad guys aren't really that bad. But it's also just as much about Abby coming to terms with revenge, much like Ellie is trying to. Abby starts her journey having already accomplished her goal. But she returns home to find that her friends view her differently for what she's done. Her entire arc is about finding redemption to atone for her actions. She cries when Owen confronts her about torturing Joel to death, she's hurt when Mel calls her charity an act, and she rejects Yara calling her a good person, but she finds a chance to do something good by helping these kids from another faction. When asked why she's helping, she says its because she's done terrible things and she needs to "lighten the load". Much like another protagonist in about a recent game about redemption, she's so committed to doing something good that she's willing to give up her home and family just to help them. She returns from her battle to find her dead friends whose deaths she's directly responsible for. She's about to continue the cycle of violence until Lev, the child who redeemed her, convinces her to break the cycle. Ellie later has to come to the same conclusion. There are some valid issues with the pacing, but I genuinely think there's a lot more meat to her campaign than people give Naughty Dog credit for. Cutting out most of her content would have significantly weakened the story.

[@awesomeanimal]

@Kyle Webber you're allowed to dislike her or anyone else for that matter. i'm just saying why i enjoyed her and found her half of the game essential

[@DRisky49]

Just A Dork YES!! Her character arc mirrors that of Joel form the first game. She's hardened and focused, her views on Joel and the scars are set in stone. Her friends viewing her differently, the apostate children humanize the scars, evidence of WLF atrocities.. Suddenly there is a chink in the armor and she becomes overwhelmed with guilt and determined to save those apostate children. Just like Joel was determined to save Ellie no matter the cost This game is all about the danger of one sided perspectives, especially in regard to revenge.

[@ninja_tony]

Kyle Webber you can also accept that a lot of people disagree. That’s why varied opinions are so important.

[@gfv]

I loved to control Abby, and was really invested to see how she would react to the death of her friends untill the confrontation with Ellie in the theater.

[@gloomycandle2905]

i also really enjoyed playing as abby, i do agree the game is flawed but i still really enjoy it and liked the new weapon variety and upgrades as abby

[@REDACTEDrose184]

Even though Abby was extremely boring as a character IMO I hate to say it but it’s so god damn fun to play as her.

[@krenx]

Naughty Dog was not trying to tell you violence or revenge is bad. They played out the scenarios in it's entirety in a neutral fashion so you can decide that for yourself. You say you know it's bad, but a lot of players were wishing for a different ending, not being able to let go of what happened to Joel, and what Ellie did. It is impressive EVEN after showing the consequences of revenge in such detail and intensity, there are many players who still cannot let go of it, and stuck in the vicious cycle of hell they created by clinging on to their desires. Many players at the end of the day DID NOT get revenge is bad, and they DID NOT get violence is bad. Not really if you wished violence on someone else as longs it isn't the team they you rooting for. Naughty dog exposed the true hearts and state of mind of many people in the world. Very cool.

[@giornogiostar3214]

People were not "exposed" by any means, they just did not like the garbage narrative and bland characters, hence why they did not care about abby and just wanted her dead, why is that so hard to understand?

[@s.k.l.1826]

@@giornogiostar3214 Still angry about Joel, huh?

[@giornogiostar3214]

@@s.k.l.1826 Never was angry about Joel, but yeah keep with the generic excuses.

[@rossgo101]

Looking back now I've finished the game the simplest change I would make that would have a big impact on my enjoyment would be not to reveal that Abby had found the group at the theatre at the end of Ellie's Seattle story. I'd let Tommy show them the jewellery and then walk away, leaving Jessie and Ellie to talk about not "getting" Abby. They could make a comment about knowing that she was "hiding out" from something and that maybe did or didn't escape from whatever was chasing her. That's the point I'd cut to black and start showing the Abby story from that point, only letting you realize Ellie left the map when Abby finds Owen and Mel's bodies. I spent too much of Abby's story being annoyed that I was being made to play Abby's story, and just wanted to get back to theatre ASAP.

[@nailamedjidova2245]

rossgo101 I love this idea!

[@ianblum22]

Wow. This genuinely would’ve been fantastic. Awesome idea!

[@palbo4]

Hmm, that could have been a cool way to have that play out but I don't know, what we got worked really well for me. That added extra challenge of empathizing with her after this shocking moment where Jesse suddenly drops dead from her gunshot and she appears like she's about to kill Tommy too added a lot of extra weight to her story I thought. Plus it added quite a bit of a tension knowing what was coming in my opinion. I hated her when she killed Joel and hated her even more after she killed Jesse, but after she went through hell and even had to kill some of her friends to save this child she comes back to a place she thought was safe thinking she could leave the city with her friends only to find them inexplicably murdered, I REALLY felt for her and her even slightly rooted for her to get revenge. Even if that revenge was against characters I loved. For me I feel like that shift from total hate for someone to respecting and even caring about them was really powerful and I don't know if it would have been as impactful without that theatre scene cliffhanger

[@colinboxall9782]

I feel like had they of done this, there'd be a lot less motivation to play through Abbys section(Especially as the player still hates her at this point). Opposed to the sense of urgency we got from wanting to know how Ellie was going to escape from Abby shooting her in the face. It's a double edged sword in that regard, as we have that urgency to go back to the theater, it actually overshadows Abbys section and the importance of it. I suspect many players rushed through it because of this.

[@DavidZCheng]

This is one of the better critical reviews of the game on youtube. I appreciate you didn’t resort to click bait in the title and everything you posited was well reasoned and communicated. I think I end up liking the game more the more I reflect on it, but you sum up a lot of the feelings I felt as I played through it.

[@epicpathan4587]

Abby: Who are you? Joel: My name is Nathan and this is my brother Sam. *END CREDITS*

[@SidPhoenix2211]

1. They have absolutely no reason to lie about their names 2. Tommy is the one who told Abby their names 3. It would've been weird for Joel to say a different name in the lodge 4. Abby knew already.

[@epicpathan4587]

@@SidPhoenix2211 bruh it's a joke. And Joel does have a reason to lie. He has many enemies so you would think he would at least lie. But whatever it's a joke. Don't take it to seriously.

[@Jolgeable]

Or it could be: My name is Crash and this is my brother Bandicoot. [a buch of boxes fall on their heads] *End credits*

[@epicpathan4587]

@@Jolgeable lol what about crash's sister Coco or the Aku Aku mask?

[@90sajen]

@@reed1645 when they were running away from the horde of zombies Tommy already gave up their names so she knew already. It would've been weird for Joel to suddenly lie about his name knowing that Abby already knew

[@dospaquetes]

"I get it, I get it, I get it" Do you though? You framed the entire thing as the game bashing you over the head with the idea that the people you kill also have families, yet fail to consider the possibility that maybe that's not what the game is saying. The game is showing you what Ellie sees in that last flashback before she lets go of Abby: there's a way out of this. The point is to take you on Ellie's journey, and right when you think you're going to get the resolution you were building towards, it snatches it from you and shows you what happens *after* the revenge takes place. It shows you that revenge brings no peace, and then it shows you how Abby redeems herself for her actions by saving Yara and Lev (though ultimately just Lev) Similarly, Ellie's journey takes her right up to that beach in Santa Barbara, when she's about to have Abby die under her hands. Right at the climax of her revenge, the moment she's been building towards for months, she stops and has that flashback of Joel on his porch, she remembers when she decided to forgive him. And in that moment she realizes that this revenge will bring her no peace, that she is losing herself, that she needs to find her redemption. She saw Abby carrying Lev and refusing to fight and she understands that Abby probably felt the same way she's feeling now while killing Joel, but that she found a way back. And so she lets go. I also feel like it's a shame that after your great TLOU1 video, you followed up with this. Your TLOU1 video focused heavily on the three last lines of the game, and yet your TLOU2 video doesn't even mention the last few lines of that game. I find them much more interesting than the ending of TLOU1, because not only do they leave just as much open to the player when it comes to the ending, but it completely reframes the *entire* game: We learn that only hours before his death, Ellie had finally taken the first step towards forgiving Joel and making peace with her immunity. We learn that it wasn't just about revenge, it was about regret and guilt. She regrets not making up with Joel in time. She regrets not dying in that hospital. She has one more death on her conscience because Joel died *because* he saved her. I feel like TLOU2 does with no words what TLOU1 did with those 3 lines: at the end of the game, she sets down the guitar and says goodbye to Joel. And with that she says goodbye to her survivor guilt.

[@gingrsnap1951]

Love this comment!! Well said.

[@gingrsnap1951]

@@frogglen6350 love both those games but they get way over the top on a story level. Good stick to the first game it’s fantastic. I prefer part 2 by far

[@gingrsnap1951]

@@frogglen6350 yeah from a structure, character, story arc, gameplay mechanic standpoint part 2 is masterpiece but if you don’t like it whatever man, doesn’t change anything

[@kingsley2837]

​@@gingrsnap1951 I played TLOU2 with open mind, but ill say it with honesty. It will never ever beat TLOU1 for me ever. TLOU had a better story, better fleshed out characters. TLOU2's story had issues and characters were bland

[@T3AMKILL]

Ding ding ding! Spot on. Ellie hates Abby for ruining her chance to forgive Joel for what he had done. She, like Abby, had tortured Joel in one way or another by pushing him out of her life for what he had done and this haunted Ellie. Ellie never had time to forgive Joel and accept his actions. Just to it’s clear, her trip to SB wasn’t about Joel. It wasn’t for revenge. It was’5 even “Abby”. It was purely for her having to confront her trauma. She would’ve otherwise killed herself on that farm. There were two flashbacks in the final fight: one to tug her towards her revenge (his dead corpse) and one that pulls her away (him on the porch). The porch scene is about forgiveness and Joel teaching Ellie what gives meaning to life. That her immunity doesn't define her. That a life of meaning is a life made with someone else. And for Ellie, that someone else is Dina. Drowning Abby she remembered that she lost the real thing that gives her a meaning to her life. She lost it because of her ego. That it's not what Joel would have wanted for her. She remembers that Joel always put the people he loved first. Whether the game is merely rendering an image of Joel on the porch for symbolic reasons or whether this is precisely the image that Ellie flashes to in battle (or both), the game is suggesting to the player that Ellie spares Abby partly for reasons related to Joel's influence on her. This is obviously simplified, as it’s a theme that runs throughout the entirety of the game. This could even go more meta in that it doesn’t reward players that wanted to kill Abby but rewards the players who forgave Abby and moved on. All in all, while it may appear as a very depressing ending for Ellie, it could be argued her mental state is better than that of epilogue Part 1, as she was still greatly haunted by survivor’s guilt and the question whether she knew Joel was lying and was convincing herself to accept that lie if so. Joel sacrificed humanity since he believed they had no cure for their inhumanity. Joel found the missing humanity in Ellie, and she proved him right in the end. Lastly, after Ellie strums the last few notes of Future Days, she leaves behind the guitar which symbolizes her new found ability to move forward with her life EDIT: and about Abby: There was a reason why Abby can be seen as bland or her character undeveloped. That’s because she’s a functional character. A narrative instrument to Ellie’s story. She isn’t a main character and NDs intentions aren’t that you HAVE to like her - it’s they you UNDERSTAND her and that is something they accomplished. Abby was created because of Ellie. She was there to break Ellie down. She was redeemed through sparing Dina and Ellie. On top of this, she was spared to develop Ellie’s character. She was basically a mirror of Joel, antithesis to Ellie, and an allegory of Ellie’s future.

[@heathhadley3323]

"The Last of Us Part 2 doesn't seem as interested in characters as it is in making grand thematic statements that are catastrophically obvious to anyone playing the game." Perfect summary of why this game falls short of the original. It was the other way around in Part 1. Not a terrible game. Just nowhere close to the character development and relationship building story telling that made the first game a legend among its peers.

[@Beviedev]

I disagree. I don't believe that the game was trying to make the most obvious statement repeatedly such as the cycle of revenge and enemies have backstories thing. It felt more to me that it was showing us that this is a story about grief. Ellie's half of the game is relentless in its pursuit of vengeance, but once we get to Abby, she has already reached that revenge. It hasn't resolved anything for her. She still grieves deeply and has horrific dreams of her father's death- killing Joel did not solve anything for her, but bonding with new people did. She bonds with Lev and finally she starts to move on from her father's death. She is able to accept that he is gone and remember him how he was alive rather than dead on the ground in a pool of his own blood. Because of her bond with Lev, and finding something else that has meaning for her, she is able to let Ellie and Dina go because she has learned that revenge won't help her but finding other things to live for just might. Once we are back to Ellie, we get to see what I believe is a happy-leaning ending, because despite Dina leaving Ellie we get to witness Ellie leave behind the image of Joel's skull beaten in and instead she remembers the conversation that informed her of how much he cared about her. We get to see Ellie take the first step into moving on instead of this self-destructive pursuit of hatred. Yes, she lost everything, but the silver lining is that she can move on and try to find something else to live for. Her bond with Dina wasn't strong enough- probably because she lied about the pregnancy. But I get that you feel that way, I just thought I'd leave my perspective.

[@Buurrkkee]

I love part II, that was summed up really well I couldn't have said it better

[@m.s.nicotdiinc.7645]

​@@Beviedev I don't like the game at all but I can't help to agree with you in some aspects of the story. But lemme ask you this: In regard to Ellie moving on and finding something to live for...how's that any different from other stories in which the protagonist has a change of mind in the very end because throughout the journey he's seen a new purpose in life. It ain't a new concept, it's been done many times before, y'know. All in all, I think Abby is by far the most fleshed out character in the game, despite Neil saying the game would be about Joel and Ellie.

[@brandynmurray7339]

Agree. Almost completely. While I loved the original for its focus on characters, I do applaud ND for exploring new ideas here-in this case, “grand thematic statements” over characters. I think it was just a little too much of it.

[@X5J2UY]

@@m.s.nicotdiinc.7645 Why does it have to be a new concept? No story is original, everything is a remake of already known stories in a new package. TLoU1 was a really generic zombiestory, most characters were stereotypical, but its great because of the acting, writing and imo ELLIE. She was the standout, had this unique mix of childish quirkiness, maturity beyond her years and a potty mouth.There is no new concept, nothing original about the first games story. In the last decade there has been 1 movie, that had somewhat of a original plot and ideas that I have never read, heard or seen before. Arrival. Unfortunately this break-down is very surface level. The main message was DEFINITELY NOT that vengeance is bad or that violence is bad. It is all about forgivness, how your inner demons to not only affect yourself, but the people that surround and love you. Funnily enough this whole game is ALL about Joel, which is reflected by the main protagonists motivations, relationships and the way they act. Abby is obsessed by Joel. She even becomes him. And then she forms a relationship with Lev, like Joel did with Ellie. Ellie is all about Joel. Its her main motivation. Not only revenge, but regretting not reconsiliating with him, not sharing more moments. And so she becomes him (at least she tries) and beautifully fails when she kills Owen and Mel. She tries his trick, loses control of the situation, which make her do a thing that she regrets deeply. There are so many underlying, subtle moments and miniarcs within the characters, that this analyses completely misses.

[@297fihsy]

I always love your videos, even though I disagree with you a great many times. I disagree with you here concerning the story, though I see where you’re coming from. I think in order for the perspective change to stick, you’ve got to bank on the player having the patience and the investment to see it through, which will depend on a lot of people’s playing contexts. I personally got to the end of Ellie’s play-through and thought that the climactic confrontation with Abby felt a little unearned. I killed off a character like Owen and felt dissatisfied that I didn’t get to learn more about him, only to beam with glee that I’d get a story-length adventure where I would do just that. The Scar/ Wolf conflict and the trip to Haven was also excellent world building to me as, even outside of the story, this was a world that was so fascinating to me. Lev was necessary to humanise Abby, also. I’m also generally just sick of Hollywood-esque tropes and boring, linear storytelling so the way this story was broken up and rearranged was really appealing to me, even if it felt a little disjointed at times. This is a brutal and exhausting game, but as I finished I immediately went back in for a second (and now a third) play through. It’s a game I can’t stop thinking about and I think the “the plot is that your enemies have backstories” complaint is ultimately way too simple and is a disservice to the game’s themes (revenge, mostly, but ultimately forgiveness).

[@Burden_one]

Thank you, exactly.

[@cynical8330]

Man I really need to play this game. I've played the first one through at least more than ten times.

[@debuthunter5389]

I think the trip to Haven was way too Uncharted. Game 1 was so grounded that it felt real and challenging. This game had an island on fire in dramatic fashion, walking wooden planks across skyscrapers, intermediate boss characters that don't die or get disabled by bomb blasts, and an infected creature that is a weird ball of other infected that they can break off from. It went from "real" to overly dramatic and fantasy-bordering...

[@marlonjarek9071]

@@debuthunter5389 agreed about the Haven part. that part was the only thing that pulled me out of the experience a bit. same thought about too uncharted like. everything else, i loved.

[@agrumbler2872]

I think you raise some good points about the structure, and you're right that the game is too damn long, but I think you're slightly uncharitable towards what Abby's section is trying to accomplish. Abby's section isn't just repeating the same themes of 'violence is terrible and revenge changes you'. Abby's section is fundamentally about redemption. She begins the section as Isaac's 'top Scar-killer' and it's pretty clear that she's become almost entirely desensitised to violence. Throughout her section she's slowly redeemed through Lev and Yara. Structurally, the game shows this by the way it distributes human and infected enemies differently in the different Acts. Ellie's infected fighting is mostly front-loaded into her section. You have to wait a long time before fighting humans, but then human enemies become much more common. The more you play as Ellie, the more the infected become a mere inconvenience in the way of killing more WLF. As Abby, you begin by killing Seraphites, but, later into her section, fighting the infected is directly imbricated with Abby's heroism (fetching medical supplies for Yara), culminating in this massive Resident Evil bossfight. Abby's Day 3 is very focussed on human combat, but Abby's loyalties are shifted, and she turns on the WLF, showing she cares about innocents more than blind factionalism. She's still a bad person, but she shows a potential for goodness and heroism, in contrast to Ellie, who begins as an avenging hero, but rapidly disintegrates. TL;DR I think Abby's section has its own unique themes that are illustrated through story and gameplay, and I think dismissing it as an unnecessary repetition of the themes in Ellie's section overlooks the key theme of Abby's section: redemption.

[@this.is.spencer]

Hamish, it's 100% this. I think you were too keyed in on what you assumed the purpose of these chapters were to listen to what the game was saying. You're right, it would be ridiculous to add 10 hours and numerous chapters onto a game just to hammer in the point that "the people you're taking revenge on are the same" and "violence and revenge are a meaningless, destructive cycle". Which is why the section was really there to say something beyond that, about what happens after revenge. After doing something terrible to come to terms with a terrible trauma, how do you come to terms with yourself? I'd add to the above that while the purpose of the sections were different, they were intertwined. I don't think it would be as easy as some commenters are suggesting to disentangle the two stories as two different games or a game and DLC. They were both necessary for telling the full story.

[@startrekmike]

@Orion Let me ask you a question. When you look back at that scene in the first game where you (as Joel) kill the doctor in cold blood in order to save Ellie, do you think that Joel should have showed obvious remorse? That he should have clearly telegraphed his regret so that the audience can feel comfortable in his decision? I strongly suspect that you (like just about everyone else) felt at least somewhat justified when you "saved" Ellie. You may have been able to see the true awfulness of Joel's choice but you had the context needed to understand it. So with that in mind, why should the writers bend over backwards to show that Abby regrets being a horrible person who kills the person who killed her father in cold blood? Do you need Abby to feel bad because you liked Joel? Do you need to have her show obvious remorse because you took what she did in the story personally enough to actually hold it against her even when the narrative gave you everything you needed to understand how Abby is not so different from Joel and perhaps is even a little better as a person by the end? Don't get me wrong. I HATED Abby when she killed Joel. I very much took it personally. I wanted to kill her and all her friends. That said. Once I got into Abby's story, I found that I could understand her motivations and did not arbitrarily require her to show a bunch of regret just because I happened to like Joel as a character.

[@alexisgutierrez7634]

I liked the themes of Abby’s section a lot, I feel that ideally they would’ve been able to have it go back and forth between Ellie’s and Abby’s perspectives but it simply would not have fit there with the much more crucial Joel flashbacks. It’s probably the best case scenario that it came together like this since those Joel flashbacks were so integral and provided essential context.

[@agrumbler2872]

@Orion I think you're missing the point of that scene. Abby, with a knife to Dina's throat, has a choice, between the awful, vengeful monster she used to be, and between overcoming her darker urges. Lev, the boy she saved again and again, is a crucial part of that redemption. The point of Abby almost killing Dina is that, a few days earlier, she would have done it in a heartbeat, but it's her experiences with Lev that changed her and prevented her from being her worst self. Also, she clearly feels guilt over the way Joel was killed. It's never outright stated in the game, but it's the subtextual reason for why Abby goes out of her way to save Lev and Yara. They keep asking her why she's helping them, and she says she felt like she needed to. I think you can infer that she feels awful about the way in which Joel's death played out.

[@alexisgutierrez7634]

@a grumbler plus this scene takes place just moments after she found Owen and Mel. And she has no idea that they even fought back against Ellie so for all she knows Ellie killed them completely in cold blood.

[@yslivy9498]

finally, a well constructed review that didn’t just shit on the game the whole video

[@JustCommonPlain]

@@arnowisp6244 Is it really? Most of their games arent masterpieces, but they're fun for what it is and that all that matters.

[@jessechuff]

Arno Wisp looking at a critical game discussion as the developer winning or losing is such a shallow way to think of it. nobody lost, this is people expressing their opinions in a thoughtful way.

[@harrylarry100]

Ppl think they shit on the first game with this game so it gets shit on.

[@earljohnson8486]

@@jessechuff THIS. I absolutely agree with this. Some people just don't get it. While some people put out constructive comments and arguments, some people will always blurt something superficial to counter these well-thought out ideas.

[@jaazsalanoa3317]

@Stranger listen to yourself. It's sad. You're enslaved by your right fist, it seems.

[@Timochiu]

This is a brilliant game that requires a lot of reflection on the details. Abby’s story is important. We were shown in Abby's campaign that killing Joel didn't stop her nightmares, so revenge did nothing to her well-being. It was only after she saves Lev and Yara she finally got closure and she was finally able to move on (she dreamt that her father was smiling at her after she saved the siblings). Her story with Lev also mirrors Joel and Ellie. This reflection comes later for Ellie only near the end when Ellie has the upper hand in her fight with Abby when she remembers the night before Joel's death and realises that killing Abby won't give her closure because her issue stemmed from the fact that she lost the opportunity to forgive Joel. By allowing Abby to live it shows that she finally realises that in order for her to move on she has to forgive Abby and let go of Joel. The final scene demonstrates this, by finally able to complete Joel's drawing and leaving the guitar behind, this shows that Ellie has let go of the past and has finally ready to move on despite letting Abby lives. This is like going through a harsh break-up, sometimes getting revenge won't get you anywhere and you just need to learn to let go. I understand why people hate this game, considering that I was also angry at Joel's death initilally. However, games are not necessarily made to make the players feel good. A game, after all, is just a story told by the developers and players usually cannot control the fate of the characters, so people need to accept that a beloved protagonist does and often dies. (Honestly, what Joel did was unforgivable to everyone else on the planet other than maybe Ellie and his family.) And as the game progress, you should be able to emphasize with Abby by seeing the story from her perspective. Perhaps, as players, we should also let go of Joel's death and move on. I agree with some comments below, this is not just a game about why revenge is bad, but also about in order to move on with your life, sometimes you need to let go of something that cannot be changed and forgive someone who has wronged you. I applaud this game to successfully trigger emotions that I had never felt with a game before. I even dreamt about it several times. Can't wait for TLOU 3.

[@PandaMontage]

That comparison between the snowball fight and Joel's daughter dying was perfect. Everybody keeps critizing this game for being to dark but this game is filled with plenty of uplifting and feel good moments compared to the 1st game which was all just depressing and sad. The first game ends with the main character burying truth in a lie and decieving one of the only people that he cares about. The second game the main character learns to go towards the light and put her need for revenge behind her.

[@TSDT]

I want DLC with Manny getting drunk and watching anime.

[@psychedelicyeti6053]

He sounded like a douche, but cool. There's someone for everyone. 😅

[@DeaKen002]

Abby's dad was happy to sacrifice Ellie without asking her for consent, sounds like murder to me.

[@SidPhoenix2211]

He def wasn't happy. He saw it as what needed to be done. Also, you could see on his face that he would not do it if it was Abby (despite Abby telling him that she would sacrifice herself).

[@CliffyH21]

That isn't accurate at all. He was visibly torn about it and wanted another way. But there wasn't.

[@potatoesblink3299]

It was a sacrifice that involved potentially saving the world. It was very big decision. Its not like they weren't aware of the gravity of it.

[@Ryuk45]

Yeah, let's pretend you're morally outraged over them not asking for her consent and not at all desperately grasping at straws to justify Joel's mass murder. And the sequel reveals Ellie would have agreed anyway, so this is a moot point

[@walterpinkman6570]

@@Ryuk45 but the fact is they diddnt give ellie the choice? She had no plans on dying in there in there minds

[@morpho4368]

Props to you for actually being one of the few channels to analyze this with a lot more depth and effort. Personally, I loved the game. It's grown on me more and more as I play through it again, and view other interpretations. But it seems rare to find anything actually substantial in the more negative discourse of the game. I'm somebody that genuinely likes to hear every perspective to help more objectively inform my own. But so much of the discussion among the disappointed is simplified into "writing is bad" without anything worthwhile to follow. I just recently found your channel not so long ago, but I'm already becoming a big fan.

[@andrewgallagher7690]

The entirety of the TLOU2 subreddit is “writing bad because I didn’t like it.” It’s nice to see actual criticism.

[@nicmanza4657]

On one hand you claim to "genuinely like to hear every perspective" and there you go boiling down the criticism to "writing is bad" suggesting you arent actually really interested in exploting the more critical side beyond that statement. Here is a short take about an issue not really talked about: When you stop and think there is no "moral greyness" about Joel's choice once you realise just how fricked up it would actually have been if ONE group of people had the vaccine to this whole pandemic, allowing them to choose who gets it first. The writing relies so much on "feelings" to drive its character's motivations it cant adress its themes in a logical, societal, philosophical -anything beyond emotional- sense. First game was notably about SURVIVAL, a concept relating to all those previoulsly mentionned. Part II is about REVENGE, related almost exclusivly to emotions, or so how it is portrayed in this game. Ps i would genuinely like to hear your perspective on this

[@morpho4368]

Nic Manza I wasn’t boiling down all criticism into “writing is bad”. I just said that a majority of what I see, at least from the most vocal people, is something unsubstantial and not backed up by much. Many of the reviews I’ve seen say something along the lines of, “well this character would never do that” and then moves onto something else without actually saying why they think that. That’s not to say there isn’t valid criticism. But it’s fogged by a crowd of people, many that may not have even played the game, parroting eachother without giving weight to their own argument. Personally, I wouldn’t say part 1 was entirely about survival. And part 2 wasn’t completely about revenge. I see it as both titles being largely about grief and it’s effects on people. I apologize as I’m currently not able to discuss this a lot, it’s late here and I’ve got to be up early tomorrow. I suppose the KZbin comment section isn’t a great place for discussion in general. But if you’d like to know my favorite take on the entirety of the series so far, I’d say that belongs to Noah Caldwell Gervais. He put out a 2ish hour video looking at each entry and he has a very interesting take, some that I agree with and others that I don’t. Namely, he didn’t view Part 1 under the rose colored glasses of nostalgia because he never played it until recently. So he’s much more critical of it. Truly fascinating channel in general. Anyway, hope you have a good one (:

[@nicmanza4657]

@@morpho4368 ill check this noah out :) btw i get what you are saying about the vocal majority and yeah it's what it is sadly :(. Mind you im am not a fan of the first one either (7/10 imo) but everything you did (mainly killing, or talking) was bout survival or preserving some humanity respectively, all until the end with the final act beeing consistent with all you had done to this point. for all its flaws the game was focused. Part 2 isnt for that everything you do (gameplay-wise, ie killing and chill flashback) conflicts with your interests and the message behind the main theme/drive (revenge) the game is going for. The character's view on how they value human isnt consistent with the gameplay, hence the argument "x wouldnt do that". Tho i cant wait for matthewmatosis's take on this one :) cheers!

[@zeroskaterz92]

There's literally a lot of genuine criticism out there. It's just you being ignorant and pretend as if you don't see it then just cherry picked whatever shitty criticism to fit your narrative.

[@LockieNZ]

It wasn't when it says Seattle Day 1 that you realise you're not going back. It's as soon as you pick up that first coin.

[@zechs98]

As far as critical reviews go you kept me incredibly engaged. I still dont agree with a lot of what you felt was unnecessary, but I respect the way youve presented your opinions. Until 15:30 ish. As you describe the gameplay for Part 2 changing the dynamic of violence and enemy encounters using the phrasing "hunted into hunter." That is.... the whole premise of the game. This statement would be very profound if it was stated in a negative fashion. And is only true of Ellie's gameplay. Ellie and Tommy, these characters are not being reactionary. They are pursuing very specific goals. Which involve murdering people. Literally hunting Abby and her friends. Abby's life as a WLF member has had her conditioned as a seraphite hunter. But her gameplay is flipped from Ellie's in a lot of ways to mirror that of Joel and Ellie's journey from the first game. She is hunting Owen, and then medicine, but everyone around is hunting her. And the context there matters. You also... dont finish. Or state anything. Your problem is structure. But you dont suggest what might have made it better, and you seem to dismiss the last 4-8 hours of gameplay entirely, as the theater is not the end. Abby's side of the story is also not just a reflection or juxtaposition or a series of flashbacks that serves to inform the player that "your enemies have backstories" it serves to actively showcase the void that exists after you get vengeance. It shows how the cost of obsession extends beyond the fulfillment of retribution. It serves to showcase that there is life beyond obsession. It served to emphasize that even after you become the monster, there are roads to redemption. The only way Ellie's bleak actual ending holds any active hope is seeing the extension of Abbys story. The problem, as a whole with perception to this game, is that it is NOT a revenge/vengeance story. That's parts of it. The story is about cycles of violence. From the light and airy snowball fight in the beginning to the subtle conflicts like Jesse complaining about the pot, or Ellie and Jesse butting heads over going to the marina or the aquarium.... the ways we can hurt even the closest to us. The harsh extreme realities of Joel exposing Ellie to intimate details of interrogation techniques.... the previously mentioned contrast of Ellie being the hunter and Abby the hunted. There are so many more thematic and motif elements than just "revenge is bad". While the structure maybe could have used more interweaving... the reality is that this game and its story, doesnt lend itself to "giraffe" moments. But they still exist, especially in the Ellie play Take on Me for Dina scenes or in the first flashback to the museum. Those moments are more poignant in the first game, because it was about showcasing Ellie's wonder and observation and consuming the world she might have been dying for. To juxtapose how much better life is with Ellie in it, to motivate Joel to do what he does. Part 2 doesnt need to do those things the build emotional connection. Life moves on perspectives dont stay the same. Christmas now doesnt look like Christmas when I was 5. These characters have grown and changed and all people are different. Trying to build comparisons is like comparing apples and oranges. Personal expectations are self defeating prophecies. It's why its regularly considered that sequels are inferior to the first installments. Thank you for keeping your review based in your opinion and not trying to push it things as if the subjective elements of this piece of art are able to be factually established one way or the other as soooo many people out there are doing. I appreciate what you did here. Good job.

[@gabrielepitruzzella_EU]

I don't think the message of the story is about revenge, and while it carries a broader theme compared to Part I, I feel like it's still very personal. I feel like this game had that character-level line you wanted, you just missed it. Revenge is the plot, just like saving mankind was the plot in the first one, but it's not really what the game is about. This story is about forgiveness through empathy. Ellie's forgiveness towards Joel and ours towards Abby.

[@MangaMarjan]

Really found it weird that he said there was no characters and only themes. The game is characters. These characters are so different from what we mostly see and play, they carry a lot of thematic weight too. For me, it was the first game with a trans character for example. With a story about the hardships trans people have to face, without hammering it down.

[@makemelaughyouants]

The plot is a simple revenge plot. The story is about grief, how we deal with it, and how far we are willing to go to move on.

[@zeroskaterz92]

You don't go through killing hundreds of people then find forgiveness through empathy. That's not how it fucking works. Empathy works for someone who is still naive but not for someone like Ellie. It work for someone like Sarah. Ellie killed bunch of people and never stop dropping more bodies, the empathy already out of the fucking window.

[@jman2856]

@@MangaMarjan Those characters are severely underdeveloped though? Like Jesse and Owen aren’t really characters as much as they just serve the function on being “angels” on both Ellie and Abby shoulders who then die unceremoniously like I get their purpose but they’re boring ham sandwiches compared to the characters of the first game.

[@suspectizm]

I was happy that the game took it's time and felt like it's never ending - I just love the worldbuilding and the love to detail and the conflicts the characters have. So 10 out of 10 for me

[@benmac7552]

Amidst all the toxicity around this game online, I've really enjoyed watching these kinds of critiques/ reviews of tlou2, from lots of KZbinrs. I've really enjoyed hearing such a range of interpretations of the story and opinions on it, despite if it's totally different from mine. I just appreciate being able to have an in-depth discussion about the game from both sides, instead of just hearing "game is sjw trash, joel dies, abby sucks and therefore game shit" or the opposite of "10/10 masterpiece and if you think otherwise your homophobic".

[@julianorozaa]

Yeah, this, FILM CRIT HULK's analysi and Carolyn Petite critique have really deepened my experience with the game.

[@Exel3nce]

Well, those are minoritys and Trolls. Most people who truly dislike the Game , "hate" it for the right reasons.

[@JeremyComans]

Discussion did become more interesting after people who actually played the game got involved.

[@Nihilanth1982]

I envy you. I like the game and Abby, but in another video received so much persistent abuse from some prick who thinks I’m stupid for thinking this way. It’s disheartening

[@benmac7552]

@@Nihilanth1982 Don't take what people say to heart. Like whatever you like. Dosen't matter what other people think.

[@estebannicrosi9890]

Putting it shortly: the first game was subtle, this one isn't. And if you wanted that subtlety, you're probably not gonna like this game

[@TheGamerNinjazX]

Its not necessarily subtle. But it is way more nuanced. It's not about "enemies have backstory" it's about revenge and grief, obsession with revenge being like an addiction to a drug that just brings you to rock bottoms rock bottom. Abby kills the man who killed her father. She trained for 4 years, turned her body into a weapon, all for the chance to kill Joel, but after she kills Joel she has to keep living, but her obsession didn't just make the night mares go away, only when she "let go" of that hate and tried redeeming herself was she finally able to sleep well without being haunted by her not being able to save her dead father. While you play as Ellie it is like Abby trying to find Joel, but by the end she too realizes that killing Abby won't get rid of her guilt, guilt for not saving Joel, guilt for not being able to forgive Joel when Abby kills him before they can "go back to normal" by the end she finally is at peace. She hadn't redeemed herself yet, like Abby tried. But she was finally able to let Joel rest.

[@estebannicrosi9890]

@@TheGamerNinjazX as English isn't my first language there may be some things I won't be able to fully convey, but what I meant about "subtlety" was that a lot of things you had to deduce in the first game, they weren't just thrown explicitly at the player -for example, the 20 years of Joel's survival until he meets Ellie, or what David intentions were. Whereas in this game all pieces of info are put right out there, even some you didn't even need or want to see (like the sex scene that could just be inferred but instead it's unnecessarily graphic). I think that the only moment when that subtlety returns is at the end, when Ellie finds Abby at the pillars, and you can deduce by her condition what she went through in those months of slavery (without having to show her getting tortured and/or raped). Maybe the word I'm looking for is "modesty" instead of subtlety? In all that you mention, I coincide. Thanks for adding to the discussion

[@TheGamerNinjazX]

@@estebannicrosi9890 hey thanks for hearing what I have to say, it's refreshing, usually when I hear the anti last of Us 2 talk its from people who don't necessarily understand the game who also aren't open to changing their mind, but you seem to be. I agree, game certainly isn't perfect, I personally had issue with things like Jesse and Manny, both are key characters to the story but when Naughty dog doesn't know what to do with them after a certain point it's just kill them for shock and awe with no true reason or explanation after,

[@Journey_to_who_knows]

I just realised something stupid Elly was mad at Joel for not making the sacrifice at the hospital which is stupid by itself and Abby would know about that and makes no attempt to discuss that despite it being apparently very important and in the end it’s her going after fireflies, the wrong person.

[@TheGamerNinjazX]

@@Journey_to_who_knows You missed a little of the point my friend, Ellie wanted her death to mean something, if her death could create a cure and save humanity she would die happy, but Joel instead wanted her life to have meaning, by the end Ellie knows that Joel lied and that, Abby would only be beating a dead horse by saying that her death could've saved humanity

[@FredWallace18]

This is the first "negative" analysis of this game that didn't immediately make me dismiss what it has to say. Most gripes I've seen have been so dripping with misunderstanding and spoiler-tainted goggles that they aren't worth much. Thanks for the wonderful analysis. That all said, I don't agree. I'm not a professional reviewer, so I'm not going to state my feelings as fact. I FEEL like the time you spend with Abby is all well-spent. Yes, you get "the point" pretty quickly: enemies have backstories. But by day three, it was more than that for me. It was leaning about how not only does Abby have a backstory, but an ongoing story. She isn't cagey prey, running and hiding around Seattle; she's completely unaware Ellie is there. She doesn't just have zombies and vendettas to worry about, but a whole war. I had nearly gotten a chance to forget about the showdown, and that's what all that time did for me. The game was showing me that what at one point felt like the climax and the most important thing in the world, was just a minor scuffle. Hell, given the fifth act, it's not even really the climax. I respect this channel a lot. I'm really happy to finally be able to watch an opinion that makes me think about my love of this game critically without simply having to ward off negativity. Thank you!

Didn’t read. You’re gay

[@lewisdavidson571]

Whilst I appreciate the comment, you lost me at Abby is time well spent. I'm sorry but she isn't. Her story isn't interesting or relevant to the one at hand and results in dull gameplay and weak character interaction. Makes Ellie feel like a side character in her own game.

[@KaneK1234]

It’s all different. I’m so happy you enjoyed the time with Abby. For me, it was a miserable slog. And I’ve sold the game never to be played or seen again.

[@Micheal93k]

I agree aswell. That first half of playing as Ellie, I was paying attention to the details in Seattle to a point where I knew what Issac looked like before he was introduced. I was interested in how this beef between the Wolves and Scars began. I wanted to know more. It didn't answer all of my questions but it left me satisfied. The second half didn't feel like a forced narrative of "everyone has a backstory" to me. In the first game you meet someone new in each location you visit. And those characters help give you a bigger picture of that location. This game on has one(three) main location but it is more densely populated than the locations we've seen in the past. Giving these characters fleshed out stories was a necessary move in my book and I enjoyed it.

[@Tsukasa2727]

To me, Abby's portion was actually better because I felt like Ellie's half was so disappointing. As Ellie we barely get to see her actual thoughts and feelings about what is going on. They turned her into a brick wall and then inexplicably put Dina , who should have been her constant reminder of her conscious, on the sideline for a large portion! On the other hand, Abby's story felt much more akin to the first game. We get to know her through her character interactions, we see her grow and we learn about the world around us. Which to me, is much more engaging than a brooding character who is only after revenge. There is only so much time hate killing can be an interesting motivator. Especially when every level basically ended with "the princess is in another castle."

[@mattnorthwoodkilsby]

My opinion of this game has shifted from disappointed to largely positive since playing it, but your description of how you felt when the Abby section started REALLY brought back those feelings. I was genuinely gutted when I found those first few crafting parts. I made her jump off the roof repeatedly with a spiteful sneer on my face. I was fucking livid. But - by the end of the Abby section I did feel different. You’re right that it was largely “I GET IT” when playing as her, but I think the key was I didn’t FEEL it. I felt bad about Abby, I understood her story and her motive, but I didn’t care about her. Caring about a character can only happen through time spent with them, and by the time we were back at the theatre I did genuinely care about her. But that still doesn’t change the fact that I was really frustrated and angry for 3-4 hours of this game which is too long in my opinion. And WHY make us play as Abby against Ellie?? Surely they knew that wouldn’t work

[@bubbaBru]

While I completely agree with 99% of everything you’re saying, I must say that in my opinion the message isn’t all that obvious, considering the number of people that just wanted Abby dead and didn’t gave a crap about any of her motives just because we happen to play as the “monster” who took everything away from her... “vengeance takes a heavy toll” would be an obvious message if people didn’t lack so much empathy and understanding towards others. Nevertheless, very well-thought and pondered review, as always :)

[@freaknr1]

I think part of the problem is that Abby is incredibly hard to like, even if when you play as her.

[@MetaMetro3]

@@freaknr1 Aside from killing Joel, what makes her unlikable? A lot of people say that but don't really go into detail.

[@blissrunner]

PunkSoupBlueWood being an 4ss to her friends to compromise their safety, promoting cheating with Owen...

[@quinnarnold8733]

That’s because she killed Joel for a weak reason and the writers failed to make me care for her. Beyond that though, the game still screams “revenge and violence are bad, mmmkay?”

[@debuthunter5389]

I think in the end what you see from all the reviews and comments is this: The whole thing works for the people who were eventually able to get on Abby's side. At that point the whole story and intention made sense. You felt and embraced the conflict between the characters and playing as them. The other half are those who just could not get onto Abby's side despite all the time and effort put into it. For them it was tedious, annoying and borderline disrespectful to be forced to spend half the game being someone you continue to hate. Neither is right or wrong. It just sucks that they made it so divisive that half of them (including me) couldn't enjoy it the way it should have been...

[@Grim187Grey]

I haven't played the game yet, but am I correct in guessing that the Infected are an afterthought? I mean... What is the purpose of telling a story about revenge if the world is doomed to die out due to there not being a cure/vaccine for the Cordyceps fungus?

[@zanvoy6848]

It makes sense that the infected are less impactful in this one. It has been several years since the outbreak. Anyone who is still alive knows how to deal with them.

[@gunslingerplays]

Well, you could argue that the consequences of Joel's actions in the first game pretty much anihilated any chances of humanity ever finding a vaccine, at least that's what the sequel tells us. The first game was ambiguous as to wether or not the Fireflies would be able to reverse-engineer a vaccine off of Ellie's brain. In this one it is presented as a done deal, they would effectively have been able to do it if it wasn't for Joel. Thus why Abby sees him as a boogeyman who not only killed his father (A firefly doctor working on a cure and that very same surgeon you kill at the end of the first game) but also doomed humanity.

[@heathlouis4529]

I wouldn't call them an afterthought at all, the story was never really about them anyway, but more about their relation to the characters we see. That aspect is still very present. Gameplay wise I'd say it's probably close to a 50/50 split between human and infected encounters, (for most of the game), but when encountering humans there are definitely more of them than when encountering infected.

[@REDMACHINEINEITOR]

The creators in the documentary about the first game say that the infected enemies had been created only because the game had to be a action game. So, the infected exist to create more combat encounters in a more believable way.

[@dominikbury2]

Wouldn't call them an afterthought, It's more of a setting in which the story plays out. Maybe it's just that you no longer feel like it's new and the characters you play as as well as the players more or less got used to them by now, unlike in the first game where you got to experience the very outbreak and learn how the "zombies" work. The real question is why are you watching a spoiler review before playing?

[@ricardocortes5975]

We should have left it at just "ok"...I remember playing the first one and being utterly in shock at that last line in the first game, thinking...will she ever find out?, will she ever discover all that Joel did? what would happened if she did?...and now, I feel the same as you. Maybe we should have just left it at that ok...

[@xavierquiles3037]

Man literally EVERYTHING you said about the gameplay is 100% accurate. Absolutely 100% dude, down to Ellies comments. I have a lot of issues about this game and I cant say I enjoyed it, but the gameplay is NOT the issue whatsoever.

[@BLUE-wg8lp]

To me the gameplay felt like TLOU 1.5 its not like the transition from Uncharted 3 to Uncharted 4 gameplay if you played those games.

[@kingstarama5478]

I completely agree on the gameplay side and wish more people would see that angle, but story wise I don’t think it’s fair to say that everyone was that quickly on board with Abby, in fact many people hate the game for having to play as her at all. I do agree this was much less character driven but I don’t think that fatigue you were feeling and I know I was feeling was unintentional completely. It’s a hard situation with no real solution or solace. And that’s exhausting. Idk, I loved it

[@Burden_one]

Completely agree. I'm playing Pathological 2 rn and it's very similar. The world is fucked, blood will be spilled no matter what you choose, and it's all going to be hell. It's not always going to be fun. Infact it's going to frustrate you. And that's kind of the beauty of it. Where other games give you this fun adventure these games are giving you a tailored experience, not a romp through a fictional world. It's not as good as the first, obviously, but I still loved it.

[@Hyperversum3]

@@Burden_one That's not the point of It. Or better, it's only part of it. TLOU1 was a character driven story, where everything was about the main duo of character and you were on board for that precise kind of story and content. It doesn't mean It was happy, not at all, but it was still about them. TLOU2 apparently does that, but ends up being more of a "plot-centric" story, with events happening to Ellie and she reacting to them, with a moral message that more explicit would make a brain burst out. Pathologic, both the original nobody played and the sequel/remake, are games about a weird and fucked up town, with a large cast of characters all interconnected to the overall plot in their different ways. Hell, the Bachelor was the suggested "starting" character and his story was about failing to save the town because his methods weren't enough but ending up being dedicated to defending something special and unique, while at the same time the Aruspex does the exact opposite (anything is a price worth playing for human lives and traditions) while the other character searches for a miracle that can grant both things. They are reaaaaaaaally different games, TLOU Is a dramatic film while Pathologic Is more of a theater play as the whole aesthetic gives away. There is no real protagonist in Pathologic, it's about a cast of humans. Hell, even the themes are very different. In TLOU human sufferings mostly come from the act of other humans as without them the pandemic would be way less devastating for the characters while in Pathologic we see that everyone (apart from the robbers and looters lol) are just trying to solve the problems by the way they think its best. The game implies that the Inquisitor and the General may be evil, but they clearly show they aren't. They are just TRYING to help. This Is even more clear if you think about are the Powers That Be. But that maybe was change in the 2nd game so I won't quote It. I'll just say that the original game had like 4 levels of metafiction

[@debuthunter5389]

I think in the end what you see from all the reviews and comments is this: The whole thing works for the people who were eventually able to get on Abby's side. At that point the whole story and intention made sense. You felt and embraced the conflict between the characters and playing as them. The other half are those who just could not get onto Abby's side despite all the time and effort put into it. For them it was tedious, annoying and borderline disrespectful to be forced to spend half the game being someone you continue to hate. Neither is right or wrong. It just sucks that they made it so divisive that half of them (including me) couldn't enjoy it the way it should have been...

[@catlawyerwilldefendfortrea6038]

Did Ellie know she was going to die? In this game, the firefly people didn't know until after Ellie and Joel were at the building. If yes, then it's a plot hole. If no then that means they never gave Ellie and Joel a choice. Which makes sense in a post-apocalypse setting but does not generate any empathy for the people Joel killed.

[@JeremyComans]

What we know from the first game is that they never woke Ellie up to give her the choice. I don't think Ellie would have suspected as much, but it isn't stated. It's certainly a surprise to Joel, and (at that time) seemed like a post-discovery realisation for Marlene as well. Marlene tells Joel that, "it's what she would have wanted" in the garage. Joel's look before he shoots her tells me he knows it.

[@ploshoploshm1582]

Love this video btw, but I think ur missing the point abt Abby's story. What kept me interested in Abby's story was the fact that it wasn't just abt 'enemies have backstory too' it was abt how Abby learns abt how forgiveness and caring for others can mend one from grief and loss. Ellies story up to that point in the Theatre was abt her quest for revenge and how it was actually making her worse in trying to cope with Joel's death. Abby's story shows a story of what happens after revenge has been completed. Despite killing Joel, Abby still has nightmares abt her father shown to us from the start of Seattle day 1. Thru the course of her journey, she begins to care abt Yara and Lev which makes the dream of his death become a dream of her father alive and happy. Abby's character arc from a hardened murderer to protector in some ways mirrors Joel's journey in the first game. Abby's character arc mattered because in the end when Abby was given the choice to take revenge again for the death of her friends in that Theatre fight with ellie. She decides to yet again spare ellie and Dina lives. Because she new now that revenge isn't going to heal her loss and moving on with Lev was the only way to cope and end the cycle of violence. Abby's part had a purpose beyond us sympathizing with her. It had importance to the overall theme of the game.

[@BartzMush]

Thank fuck someone got exactly what I got from that. I honestly couldn't understand why everyone is shitting on this decision so much.

[@lurpakspreadable4994]

To be honest, I didn’t want to kill Abby at the end of the game though I still found myself mashing square to do so. To end Ellie’s suffering mostly. Despite Joel’s poorly written death, I found myself empathising more and more with Abby but never to the point where I would’ve ‘rooted’ for her. Seeing her hung up though, on the pillars, having had all her friends killed, refusing to fight and having become almost a mother/big sister to Lev, my feeling was that she’d suffered enough. Ellie brought the suffering upon herself and so did Abby. The ending, I felt, was justified. It was not a perfect game at all, but an emotionally traumatic one that I played with an open mind. Many will disagree, but that’s the beauty of games/films/music.

[@debuthunter5389]

I like the way you wrote and assessed that. In the end I was always on Ellie's side, and still hated Abby almost the whole game up until that pillar part. At which point I was happy to walk away (as Ellie) and leave Abby to disappear.

[@stor314]

for me i personally saw the 10 hour slog that was abby’s “campaign” as necessary for the ending to have any emotional weight. i think that the player always just sees her as the villain if the game only tells you briefly that there actually were reasons for her actions. but because you had to play as her for so long, whether you liked it by the end or cared about her in any way, you at least start to humanize her. this leads to the climax of ellie’s character development, when she’s seconds away from drowning abby, she empathizes with her and sees her as a human. and because you have played as abby for so long, you do also. in that moment you feel the forgiveness ellie gains, both for abby and for joel (for taking her off the operating table). i think the character development is more nuanced in this game and that’s why it seems missing at most points, but to me the ending shows that the game was trying to prove its themes, but it was also trying to further its characters. and the weight of the ending doesn’t land for me if you don’t play as abby for 10 hours, because i don’t think you have the ability to truly empathize and humanize abby unless you do play as her for that long. i agree there were pacing issues throughout and maybe the writing wasn’t as good as the first game in some areas, but to me the game had a huge emotional impact because of the risks the writers took. and when i think back on it i don’t remember all the shortcomings or the unfun abby section, i remember the effect the game had on me at the end. an effect just as strong as the first game. that’s my experience though obviously, everyone’s is different and i can understand how it wouldn’t land for some people. great video, i love your work and am excited for your future content.

[@debuthunter5389]

I remember the game for Ellie and Joel (mostly Ellie) and wanting to be there with her through it and at the end. The Abby section was annoying and I get what they were trying to do, but it made half the game feel painful to play for many (well half the population), which kinda sucks coz I wanna play it again, just not grind through all that part again...

[@thetransientone6254]

Hey. Thank you for your fair review. I disagree with your interpretation of the story, but I also understand how you arrived at that conclusion based on the reasons you gave to support your stance. So while I disagree, I'm still giving this a like and a sub based on the fact that in my opinion you actually reviewed the game in a fair and objective manner. Again, thank you for that.

[@XZYLOSavage]

Just going to put it simply. I've been saying to people my biggest problem with this games writing is that it's a super rare case where the game needed to tell and not show.

[@vise_atoxity8083]

I know you're not gonna see this in the midst of 1,000+ comments but, amazing video man! I sat here just shaking my head in aw at every point you made in agreement. You've earned yourself a sub!

[@Caiquebarsil]

I can't help but feel as you've seen this game through a "movie parts/gameplay parts" experience. What moved me so deeply was the mix between the two that is only possible in a game. To watch somebody's story but also BE that person, living and seeing thru their eyes. The first game had you questioning not only Joel's decision but yours too - "was 'I' the villain the whole time?". In this one, seeing that loved and important character taken from you so cheaply through Ellie's eyes was a way to feed the hate and the need for vengeance inside Ellie AND the player. And then, the games MAKES you live your biggest enemy's life, see things through her lenses. Of course you don't wanna be in her skin, you hate her guts, but for me it was an unbelievable exercise on empathy - so much that, when I got back to the theater, I didn't wanna Ellie or Abby to win. It rendered both vengeances null. And it was tiresome for me too, but wasn't it meant to be? Like Owen when he simply doesn't want to kill anyone anymore. That for me is where the game shines and succeeds more than any other experience I've ever had in this medium. Taking the idea of the relatable and lovable "Avatar" and turning it on it's head. From a purely plot-oriented view, yeah, it can fall short sometimes. Also from a purely sistemic/gameplay-oriented pov. But the experience of living, walking, killing and losing loved ones through both a character you like and one you're supposed to hate in such a polished game left me amazed.

[@greyeyed123]

I may be wrong, but my sense is this game will grow in more universal esteem and appreciation over time. (I only discovered part 1 a couple months ago, and in reading about it, apparently the ending was polarizing at its release also. Now everyone acts as if it was always universally loved.)

[@startrekmike]

I had a feeling that your video would serve as a sort of counter-point to Noah Caldwell-Gervais's video. He enjoyed it because of the various component stories that make up the entire game while you tend to edge a bit more towards a more traditional, more "gameplay first" approach. In the end, I tend to skew more towards Noah's take because I think that he (like myself) got that the game really wasn't trying to frame the whole "revenge is bad" or "killing is bad" messages as the whole point of the two intersecting stories. Instead, it is just telling those stories and letting the player experience the feelings attached to those stories. Perhaps it is not unfair to say that you were going into this game expecting a movie but in reality, it was a two season television show where the point of the stories was the telling of the stories. I don't know. It just seems that caught the whole "revenge/killing is bad" theme and thought "alright, that's it. I got what the game is about!" That was certainly a part of it but when you look at the second act, it is obvious that they were not just providing context for the things you did in the first half but also expanding on the world in a way that wasn't narratively possible with Ellie. Abby's story was almost entirely separate from Ellie's until you get to day 3. In a way, we got two whole games that happen to link up at the very end. I can see how that might feel long to some but I can't see how one can arbitrarily simplify that down to just wasting one's time before getting back to the theater. Perhaps what I am saying here is that I am actually kinda surprised to see such a thin, surface level read of the game from this channel. As I said before, I can certainly see that there is a overarching theme about revenge and violence but there are also hours spent developing characters and really fleshing out pretty much every plot relevant motivation and emotion. To say that it focuses more on its message than it does on its characters doesn't really make a lot of sense when you look at what the game does on a storytelling level. It is laser focused on characters, especially in the half that you seemed to be in a hurry to get through.

[@stor314]

yes, i completely agree with what you said in the second paragraph. playing as abby for that long is necessary for any of the games themes to have any weight, even if her section isn’t all that enjoyable or you don’t care about the characters afterwards.

[@kngofcmx03]

I would have been fine with them telling a whole new story within the universe altogether and leave the Joel and Ellie story as is. You can tell a whole new good story within that world, without it having to clash with the previous. But that’s just me.

[@domrony6288]

It's marketing... :(

[@REDEEMERWOLF]

I think that would be a great idea. But you and I k ow people would hate that shit cus no Joel no Ellie. Babies.

[@reterumstrict1091]

REDEEMERWOLF o not really, the only reason that is because this is THE LAST OF US PART 2 if it was a different title people wouldn’t give a fuck, why would Joel and Ellie be in another franchise? Ur delusional lmfao

[@michaelpeeling]

It amazes me how much of this game went over a lot of people's heads, especially people who write about games for a living. This simplistic analysis leaves out so much of what made the game great.

[@vladimirimp]

This is the best TLOU2 story critique I've read yet. It helps make sense of my feelings towards it. Didn't hate it and in fact rather enjoyed it all. But something didn't quite work; especially not when it's all over.

[@GustavoSena14]

You were able to sum up basically everything I felt playing this game. I loved some Abby and Lev moments but the whole comparison between them felt so forced. Joel initially saw Ellie as a job, and their bond was built during a long ass roadtrip with various important events. Besides not hating my time with the game, the bloated nature of some chapters and the problematic pacing in general subtracts a lot from the experience.

[@ahzidaljun]

I really liked "with him dies quiet ambiguity". I don't know why so many stories recently are keen on taking these grand, explicit stands for things that most people already assume.

[@SleeperGuy23]

That’s because picking up on that is obvious so people think that’s all it is. It makes one feel smart to pick up on it.

[@jaydunna2276]

ambiguity is way overrated. It's a cheap plot device used to make people feel smart.

[@djbeema]

I agree with you except for the assumption that most people would already get the point without those overt displays. This game will be played by millions, many of whom are young, or ignorant, or simply don't care to think too deeply on the games they are playing. As a triple A game, it's obviously targeting a massive and diverse audience, so I think much of that is them trying to accommodate the likely large portions of that audience who wouldn't pick up on subtle storytelling.

[@caspermaster-com]

yeah... i think people infering something like "you are not smart enough if you dont like part 2" the joke might be on them as everything is painfully stated and almost like an actor looks in the camera obvious. Also ive noticed that some people enjoying part 2 diddnt actually like part 1 a whole lot

[@whenthedustfallsaway]

@@jaydunna2276 actually ambiguity is the natural state of mankind. Most people don't voice their every thought. When Joel looks at Ellie in silence, we are left to assume his thoughts.

[@clyderomijn4058]

I would like to share a perspective I found from MeloBeta which allowed me for some more closure on what has happened. Really like this theory as well and i think it deserves more credit. MeloBeta: My Main Theory: Ellie is living in Jackson with Dina, JJ, and Jesse's parents. Why: During the farmhouse section of the game, while carrying around JJ, we find a note on the table from Jesse's parents, saying that there will quote, "Always be a place here in Jackson for You, Ellie, and JJ." showing that Ellie would always have a home. Next, before heading to Santa Barbara(at the farmhouse) and during the Santa Barbara section of the game, and Ellie's fight with Abby, Ellie is not wearing the bracelet that Dina gave her in Seattle. If you check Ellie's backpack, the bracelet is not in her backpack, proving that Dina still has it. But when it cuts to her at the farmhouse, having returned, with no time frame of how long it has been, she is indeed wearing that bracelet again... showing that Dina gave it to her after she returned home from fighting Abby again. Which Dina wouldn't have done if she'd been done with, or abandoned Ellie. Another thing, notice that Ellie has nothing on her in her "return". No guns, no arrows, no gun holsters, no anything. Just her backback. If Ellie had just returned from a long trip back home, you'd think she'd still have those things on her. Right? So I believe that Ellie left Jackson that day, to either go for a walk, or purposely return to the old family home to retrieve her guitar. Another hint at this, is that there was no note left by Dina, for her return. If Dina loved Ellie as much as she seemed to, she would have left a note for her, amidst her return, telling her where she was or that she had moved on with JJ by herself. Ellie than trys to play the guitar one last time, prompting a more positive flashback of Joel. One, of them talking on a more positive note the night before he died. After the flashback, she leaves the guitar in the farmhouse and heads off the property into the woods. So I believe that she realized, that if she truly wanted to be happy and move on with Dina and JJ, she would need to move on from Joel and his memory. And so leaving behind the one thing she had left of him to hold onto (the guitar), she's leaving her brutal, revenge filled past behind her. To truly move forward in her life with Dina and JJ. So this, her walking into the woods, is not her losing everything, or going out on her own. But simply her returning home to her wife and child. Who in my opinion/theory, she returned to after the final events with Abby, and has been back with them for a significant period of time. And therefore the closing events of the game, take place after she had reunited with her family. Not before. Leading to my conclusion, the Ellie made up with Dina and is living happily with her in Jackson.

[@Oscar-ki9jf]

That’s an interesting theory and it would really change the emotion you’re left with at the end. However, I think we would’ve been shown an ending with Dina and J.J., had they still been around for Ellie.

[@gunzzthecreator9374]

The story is overcomplicated by not being linear with different timelines. The Story of Part I took a backseat to tell Abby's story. The decision to play as a character that does something too costly that you will not like just to UNDERSTAND them was a bad call. There was no pay off in the end and it was dragged out. Ellie should've just stayed on the farm.

[@71775926]

Maybe Neil gets off on the Nolan brothers.

[@jaydunna2276]

I understood Abby's motivation though. Joel is basically every comic books villain. Killed lots of innocents, and doomed the human race to save 1 girl. Watching your father killed can motivate you to do nasty things. This is a post apocalyptic world, there is no court of law. The only way she can get justice is to go get it herself. That's what she does.

[@gunzzthecreator9374]

@@jaydunna2276 Thats the thing, its a No Brainer to sympathize with Abby. Everybody understands her motive. I actually like Abby as a written character but the overall story was bad and emotionally confusing which clearly divides the recipients, and majority sides with what they are attached to (which is the story of joel and ellie). and The "Villan" depiction of Joel is false tho. Part II literally paints the world of the last of us as gray and not black and white. whats justice to one could be injustice to another. But Players already knew that, especially with the ending of Part I. Joel has done good and bad just like Abby (Mel confirmed by calling her Issacs Top Killer) and Ellie and tommy and so on. But with Joels story at least we've only seen him trying to survive, killing others that are trying to kill him (not innocent ppl) during his mission for marlene. The Doctor raised a scalpel to him AFTER Marlene threaten his life and her mercenary almost shot him AFTER being knocked out by other mercenaries. Regardless, I believe Joel deserved Karma. and that coulve been a good story but the game executed it in a very tasteless way. and the theme "revenge" or "breaking the cycle of revenge" comes of as preachy and deep but its actually very shallow and doesnt make sense for what the both main characters do on their journey. You would think abby would at least ask why joel killed her father (especially after just saving her life), or Eliie would ask abby why she killed joel (and both characters know nothing about each other than abby knowing ellie is the girl with the possible cure and them both being responsible for their friends deaths, so why wouldnt they kill each other if given the chance, they literally killed everybody else and in that "apocalyptic world" im SURE that they will go off kill more. The game is a mess if you actually analyze it.

[@rudfilmsstudios]

Its suppose to be easy, they didn't want you to WANT to do it. That was the challenge, a thing you needed to overcome without the use of your controllers, Look at Girlfriend Reviews Review on this, maybe you'll see this game in a different light I'm sure :D

[@gunzzthecreator9374]

@@rudfilmsstudios Thanks for the recommendation. Excellent and very funny review but her review backs up my thoughts about the overall game/story. Im in the process of making my own review so my thoughts are everywhere as well and again I understand abby and her story and the similarities to ellie. I think the character of abby is actually brilliant however the execution of the story leaves a bitter taste, especially in a video game. The script is probably better received as just a script or in a film, but as a video game playing 30 hours murdering everybody just for the writer to slap you with a "deep" lesson like "revenge is bad" is like ok cool. and then you have to question that same lesson after ellie settles down toward the end. I literally asked as a playing wanting revenge "its been a year plus, why is she still after revenge.. especially after that theater scene. but whatever lets do it?" and then nothing. When did video games become about a lesson that the player (who may or may not already know) needs to learn behind the controller instead of the Game and/or the characters' Story or even a lesson that just the character *within* the game acknowledge? and i believe thats why the gaming community and the players of the first game are having a hard time accepting the second part. its too preachy and non traditionally unsatisfactory for the majority. It doesn't have to be but if its not, you have what Niel Druckman has with tlou part II. where as in part I, the in game situations and story complimented eachother very well with a unresolved cliffhanger ending but it gave the players enough with solid reasoning. its gripping and bittersweet. If I could even quote ellie from part 1 in response for part II "after all weve been through, it cant be for nothing." the players were left with nothing but the lesson of revenge or lack there of. Its confusing and just bitter.

[@nickl9317]

Part 1 had that moment in a house where Ellie is reading a diary and sees the bullshit unimportant preoccupations people used to have. Is this really what people cared about? And then Part 2’s character are animated by exactly that kind of bs-in a world destroyed and dangerous, a world where basic hygiene is not a given, disease is back with a vengeance, skilled people are hard to come by and a lot of things we take for granted like medicine etc is no longer produced and probably well past sell by date. It felt incredibly shallow and stupid. Too many themes crammed into a world where they are not pertinent. All characters are super dramatic and full of sound and fury… I wish there would have been some characters who are still kind of like Joel, adapted to the world instead of going full drama.

[@atticmichael]

This game is absolutely not the game I wanted... But taking it for what it is, I felt it was unbelievable. No game made me this emotional and the themes really resonated with me. Of course, I can't help but think about what it could have been if Joel hadn't die. But his death remains an incredible starting point for a story and the rest of the game does it justice. The switch of character was super bold and I connected with Abby. I was so conflicted throughout the whole thing. It was a fantastic experience in my book.

[@liamrawlinson7536]

You criticised the lack of of focus on characters then criticised the 10-12 hours they used to develop the antagonist of the game. That gameplay as Abby wasn't just to push the theme of "revenge is bad" it was too force you to walk in the shoes of a person you feel hatred towards, to ask the question could you forgive someone who killed someone you care about. While the plot of the game might be revenge it certainly isn't the main theme in my opinion. IMO the main theme is grief, and how different characters deal with that grief.

[@GlennDavey]

The world-building was so good that my stomach dropped when I remembered that Naughty Dog makes loot-and-shoot "road movie" games. Sure enough, we didn't hang around Jackson for long. I'm too used to open world games like RDR2 now but it was a nice change of pace to be told exactly what to do at every step.

[@Valiyus]

My biggest issue with the game is it feels like it needed a morality system such as Dishonored or Dishonored 2. You could tell two different stories if they went that route. Pushing to get vengence through any means or by only going after the one that wronged you. You could choose what to do at the end. This is my biggest critique and letdown. I feel the story would've also worked better if it developed itself in a more morally ambiguous way. Joel saves Abby and Abby is indebted to him. She way later finds out he is Joel and is caught in a moral quandary. She sees that he is obviously not the asshole she made him out to be but say if his life was at stake would she save him or kill him. Perhaps put her in the position to kill him is the only way to save him. My problem is everything is driven down one path and the narrative forces you to take that path no matter what. You can't choose not to kill certain people. You can't choose anything. This is why I think this game failed as a game. It forces this narrative so fucking hard they had to write deus ex machinas in order to have Abby kill Joel. Like what were the chances that Joel would run into them EVER by chance. They ruined their own game because Druckmann couldn't decide what he wanted to do, especially judging by his interview. They wanted to do so much with the plot and he wanted it to be driven by vengeance (which he originally wanted to do with the first game) so they stitched it together and drew it out even though they hit every thing on the head multiple times until the player becomes numb to it. I disagree if anyone thinks this is good story telling, especially for a video game. It should've explored more deeper themes but it only did one and it suffered because of it.

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

Food for thought: You wouldn't be asking for this if it wasn't for the original Last of Us' existence providing a personal stake in the story. We never felt like we needed an explanation for why Joel did what he did at the ending of the game because we were witnesses to his story, not active participants. When you make the player feel like an active participant (eg. by making it a revenge story about the death of a character they really, truly loved), IF you lose their motivation you really kill their drive to keep playing.

[@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive]

I didn't leave the epilogue with the conclusion that the theme of the story was "revenge is bad" and instead it was "forgiveness and acceptance is good."

[@jjabr219]

Pretty spot on with how I felt about the game. I found myself trying to rush through Abby's storyline because I wanted to get back to Ellie. Then they made us fight Ellie like she was a boss??! I tried to feel a connection to Abby's character and story but I just couldn't. The pacing was awful and the way the story was told could have been done MUCH better.

[@pepem6236]

Lyn A Thank you !! It’s like I definitely understood the message and it’s implications in regards to ellie’s half of the story but it just felt so unnecessarily dragged out that it kind’ve took me out of the experience. It somehow didn’t feel like the last of us I remember which I understand was sort of what they were going for but something about it just felt off and unfamiliar. Maybe it’s just that I overall still found ellie to be a more interesting character than abby? I respect naughty dog’s ambition but in my case this decision for the story kind’ve fell flat.

[@vittoriovietti7678]

Besides many problems (entirely subjective) that I had with the plot of the game a major issue for me was the length (took me 30 hours on survivor). I just genuinely felt that some moments were dragged for way to long to the point that while I was playing all I could think was “alright come on, when's the next significant event of the game happening?”, something that never happened to me with the first game. And unfortunately this has consequences on the gameplay, since looting resources becomes kind of annoying after so many hours. I honestly don't mind the game, but as Neil said they took many risks when they decided what story to tell with this game and, for me, many of those didn't pay off.

[@psychedelicyeti6053]

👏

[@BleakBlueJay]

I think Naughty Dog intended for a TLOU3, and that's why so much detail was put into fleshing out Abby and Lev. I think they're probably going to end up major characters in the next game, too. Wrapping around to how they're looking for the Fireflies, and they're aware of Fireflies at Catalina Island, and sailed off into the sea when we last left them, they're probably going to return to the Cure ideal, if possible, and that'll probably be Ellie's redemption arc, too. It wasn't just beating us over the head with "REVENGE BAD, OTHER PEOPLE HAVE BACKSTORIES" it was introducing Abby as a genuine main character. The pacing definitely needed work though. I didn't really mind the transition from the theatre to Abby's last few days and her flashbacks, because I liked Abby and I wanted to know her better, and I liked the other characters coming through her section of the game. But to be honest everything between the farmhouse and the end of the game SUCKED for pacing and tone and quality. It was the least polished part of the game, and that was personally MY part of just running through levels of enemies because I didn't want to deal with it.

[@TheDudeSmashTrash]

describing your frustration being akin to Ellie's as "ludonarrative consonance" got me lol. great vid and analysis overall, too :)

[@SorryBones]

About the length - you’re right, man. Brevity is wit and although I understand why ND told all of Abby’s story I also think the game had already dropped enough about the themes to not need the second half. But judging by the public’s straight nasty attitude to Abby, Im starting to think it wasn’t enough. I mean, Ellie does everything Abby does and more, so the real reason people hate Abby for killing Joel is because we are already familiar with Joel and Ellie. So the solution is to make us familiar with Abby by giving her the same amount of time and story. But people still hate her. So while it would’ve been way less ache to shorten the game, lengthening it had a purpose and it still failed. Maybe they should’ve just made her more likable. If people can’t get past the “I know Joel though” gap then maybe simpler things could’ve endeared them to her character itself. Because empathizing with her was clearly too big of an ask.

[@farhadgmail]

Couldn't agree more... sometimes less is more. I also don't have any problem with killing of your main (and popular) character right at the get go, but ND clearly missed a shot at making Abby likable... I played it in normal difficulty and it took me 27 hours! The Abby part felt forced to me... like ND is trying soooo damn hard to force me like her... pet the dog.. save a kid... you name it. But it all backfired IMHO. You know why? Because every character and relationship in the first game was organic and not forced... I really didn't care about anybody in this game! Dina/Ellie relationship was so cringy I could not watch! How come Dina set on a revenge journey for a man she barely knew with a girl she just kissed once after breaking up with a man ONLY A WEEK AGO? How come Joel who was so suspicious about everybody in the first game gives away his name to strangers like it's charity!!!? These are just a few instances of what I call out of character and lazy writing.

[@Giannih-mr8nz]

Are we sure we're supposed to like Abby in the first place? I would have cut some parts from her plotline tbh, but I don't think the time span is so stretched in order to strictly like her. I personally think the amount of empathy you get with her is just serving the theatre scene. It felt pretty hard for me to beat the sh*t out of Ellie, but I understand people who got so bored with the story and totally refused to bond with Abby to the point that the scene was practically worthless and annoying; that said, even those ones were like "I don't want to do this". Personally I devoured the game in a couple of days, so I have not felt the dragging and it's hard for me to clearly judge the choice. I don't know, I just feel like the thing they were trying was really hard to convey to a broad audience and they ended up trying too hard but missing on more basic terms.

[@Solzan2000]

The length was fine and Abby was ok imo. People just hate her cause she killed Joel, for good reason. People seem to forget hes the cause of whats going on in that post apoc world, and Elle knows this, thats why she has contempt for him, he was selfish and gave no fucks about the world and because of that clickers are evolving and people are dying and getting killed.

[@vittoriovietti7678]

Neil recently said in an interview "if we fail to make you sympathize with Abby the game failed". What Neil failed to understand (in my opinion) is who much the fans are attached to Joel, even by giving Abby all that time in the game you still have to understand that we have been knowing Joel for 7 years at this point, there's no way that people would sympathize with his killer after 10 hours of gameplay even by using the same concept of the first game (Joel and Ellie = Abby and Lev). I honestly don't mind the game (8.5/10 IMO) but this is not even close to the story of the first game, the execution of the concepts that this game wanted to delivered was just poor.

[@MrRudesku]

@@vittoriovietti7678 I kinda disagree personally: at the end of tlou2, I did like Abby more than Ellie, because she had the better arc and did not let herself get consumed by revenge not once, but twice. The problem is that, to achieve this, they had to elevate Abby on such an high pedestal that the result seems artificial: on one end Ellie is brought down at every single turn while Abby is brought up so highly that everything loses nuance. Is like watching Neil come out of the screen to yell at me: "see how bad Ellie got ? See how much of a monster she is ? Look at Abby, she even saved an ex enemy !!! She tells her father that she would gladly die if she was immune !!! Can't you SEE ?!?!?!". So everything falls flat at the end: a character that is mortified by the script beyond relief, and a presumably good character that seems like an unwanted imposition.

[@Virtuoso80]

We have to spend so much time as Abby because the game doesn't want you just to get it, it wants you to feel it. We've all seen 100 movies where "ya know, the villain had a point", but it doesn't really shake our loyalty or connection to the hero. People say "I don't need a game to tell me revenge is wrong", but we actually do, because we still all constantly behave in ways that prove we don't really understand that at all. We get it, but we don't GET IT. Instead, our lives are lessons in how insufficient those morality tales are. "No, you don't understand, this REALLY SUCKS. My father was killed. This isn't like when Bruce Wayne lost his parents. That was all going to be okay. This happened to ME, and this is just WRONG. It will never be right again. And I have nothing left but to get revenge on those who made it wrong." And similarly, we know other people have their own problems, lives, reasons, are the heros of their own story, but most of the time it's just sentiment and vague understanding. To truly find a way to dissolve your own ego enough that you're really able to understand, is something that often takes drugs to bring about in the human brain. Or...a really ambitious video game just might be able to give you some of it too, apparently. IMO, just the fact that this game was able to do SOME of that for SOME people makes it one of the most remarkable things ever done in media. And in order to achieve that, they had to make Joel's death that painful, and then take you all the way from those feelings, to enough time and experiences shared with Abby, to where your comfortable moral perspective and certainty just gets obliterated. Making things more conventional and satisfying turns the game into just another entertainment. And maybe some people just wanted that, that's fine, but I'm utterly fascinated by their even partially successful attempt to do so much more.

[@DanielGarofalo100]

I think people are too focus on the revenge theme that are on the surface of the story and for sure are very heavy handed, and forget the grief and loss theme and mental illness theme that are very quietly explored, with Ellie's and Abby's story's and subtle ways just as with Joel in part 1

[@Hoopla10]

I don't really get the argument it's all theme all plot tbh. Ellie and Abby's character are arguably better drawn out and examined than Ellie and Joel's in TLOU1. Ellie is more complicated, from her messy teen relationships, her complex relationship with Joel, her increasingly complex relationship with her immunity (something that's also developed over the game as it relates to Joel). Yeah these are all really messy, complicated and it becomes harder to put her in the box of the good guy, the lovable kid. But that's GOOD character writing, right? It's three dimensional and more real. Abby is more or less the same and mirrors Joel to a degree that makes me question whenever somebody makes this claim about plot and character comparing the two games. That imo isn't by accident. ND are doing that on purpose to circumvent this kind of argument. Side character like Owen, Manny, Dina, Jesse are well drawn out three dimensional characters. Better than anything from the first game. And just as important work alongside the main protagonist's characters to drive the story and further understand and develop them. And talking of side characters I think ND is purposefully aware of how they frame Lev. The revenge is just Ellie's justification as she's having to work through this loss. It's why ND SHOWS and doesn't TELL Joel's death. They show (in fact force the player) to build up her hate to kill/interrogate Nora. They show her hand shaking before knocking on the cinema door on returning. All things done to imitate Joel. As she says to Tommy "Joel would have already gone" (the guilt he'd later us back on her). All things to remain close to Joel. And we see/feel how that is damaging her. I could go on, but this all focused character development/writing. And it is that which drives the story. It's also the thing that explains the ending. There's an important feeling most players get when they play (especially as Ellie, and especially at the end) and I think this is important. It's a sense of 'why are you still doing this Ellie', 'please stop'. And yes that can be interpreted as forcing the issue by ND, or hammering the point but two things, firstly it's the same sense of helplessness you feel as a parent watching your child go through something and being unable to help them, feeling hopeless to stop them even though YOU know it's hurting them. The reason you can't help is because this is an internal fight that they are experiencing. And finally letting go and hoping they make the right decision. If you didn't want to press that square button at the end, afraid it would mean killing Abby, and held off, stopped even. That's what is happening. That is entirely character based. And while the character writing for Abby works in a much different way and for a different purpose it's also very focused. This negative comparison to TLOU again feels odd because if my guess is if people knew nothing about Joel and Ellie, that this was her story only and it played out like it does she's the hero, she's the Joel character and odds on most players would really like her (even more if they made her prettier, larger breasts and thinner because you know a certain section of gamers are still 14 year old boys even in their 30s). There's absolutely tons left up to interpretation. From WHY Dina went with Ellie even though she's pregnant. From why Abby isn't with Owen even though she clearly loves him (and he loving her). From what's happened to Tommy in the year from returning to Jackson and visiting Ellie/Dina on the farm. All the way through to the ending. I could go on. But what I find a bit odd I suppose is on a channel called "Writing on Games" you don't talk about how ND tells this story. For example sure it's a very good looking game. But given games are visual medium and we accept that films tell much of their stories visually it's weird you don't see a connection and comment on it. The way Ellie looks thin at the farm. The use of the back shot as she takes off her top. The way she puts Potato's little toy from the tractor in the SAME pocket as the one she normally keeps her knife. There's an insane amount of story details like this that express and reveal character. ND hired an entire lighting team for cinematography. That wasn't only just to make sure we got nice god rays. TLOU2 is very good at SHOWING not TELLING. The corner stone of good WRITING. How Ellie's hair is similar to Tess. The way Ellie is shown imitating Joel. Or how about the way characters talk during normal exploration. Both Joel and Ellie refusing to understanding the "others" point of view even though they're gently confronted by it (Dina and Owne).

[@Nihilanth1982]

'TLOU2 is very good at SHOWING not TELLING. The corner stone of good WRITING.' - are you saying that showing is the cornerstone of good writing or telling? curious..

[@Hoopla10]

@@Nihilanth1982 Showing is the corner stone of good writing. You're allowing the player/viewer to feel the experience not be told how to feel it. The two spots in the game I feel it is let down (the farm and post Joel's death) the game reverts to telling and we the player loses that connection we should have with Ellie. In the farm it's a problem (imo) and a missed opportunity because they could have really delved into how Ellie is feeling and her PTSD. Instead we're kind of more aligned with Dina when Ellie is leaving. Which I feel hurts some players ability to understand why Ellie *has* to do what she's doing (in her mind at least). We might still want her to stay, but we'd feel why she has to go. We'd have felt that conflict even more. And it also disconnects us from Ellie. Like I've said, I understand why they did this and the game's Design Book explains the limitations that caused them to cut some of this stuff. But it's still a shame and does a good job of contrasting how the rest of the game does what it does so well.

[@jman2856]

What? Manny is just an unfunny womanizing douche, Jesse and Owen aren’t given any real depth at all compared to characters like Tess and Bill from Part 1. We saw different sides to Tess and we got a good glimpse into what Bill was all about when we first met him. Dina is one of the better new characters but even her potential feels wasted as she gets needlessly sidelined for most of the game and just turns into the generic worried housewife.

[@oscarman8070]

9:50 - oh jeez i still have flashbacks of the dissapointment i felt ...

[@JezL8]

Hey man love your videos and I know I'm going to probably come off as an asshole but it's not my intent at all. I have found that when people say this game "beats you over the head with an obvious message" (or variants of that phrase) they more often than not get the theme and message wrong. At least in my opinion anyway. The game isn't saying violence is bad, it's talking about the dangers of dehumanising individuals and groups. This plays out all over the narrative (think how often anticlimax is used with a place or encounter being built up only to have it undercut for example). That violence feels good and is easy is probably closer to what it says. That hate feels good and is easy. It's more of a drug addict story than a revenge one but more over I think it's about the difficulty but absolute vitalness of love. And criticising something for being obvious in its theme or message never really resonated for me to be honest as it's all about the telling. And the number of people who hate both the game and certain characters based on an initial impression suggests that maybe the obvious lesson of "people you hate are people too" is still valuable. As audiences we often enjoy the obvious, Shakespeare had obvious themes. Not that I'm saying this game is Shakespeare, that'd be absurd hyperbole. But in improv, for example, it's much more pleasing when asked to name the first fruit they think of for someone to say apple than kumquat. Fuck this turned in to a mighty all over the place ramble I'm so sorry.

[@123lorajane321]

Somehow, with all these detailed back stories, they manage to NPC every single character in the game. Even Ellie has been castrated from her former self.

[@OneLifeDaily]

Naughty Dog really wanted the player to question all the mentioned aspects of playing the game. So many times we want to play a game for fun, to follow through with actions with no consequence or connections because we have to do that all the time in real life. They wanted to make it difficult to play through high tension scenes and experience the revelation that the enemy doesn't need to die, but if you waiver, YOU die. You must reap what you sow. The game has your attention and forces you to watch what you've already spent hours doing with a new set of eyes and redefined place in your soul. Last of Us 2 became available at a very interesting point in our societal timeline; protest and side-choosing, all with the intent to make life better but with the stains of past decisions and actions, and their continued dispersion of violent ripples. People are in pain right now and this game is hard to play. It shows us that we cannot walk away from the bad we've done, only that we may learn from it and recognize that when these things happen again, our chosen path will be different. We must practice this in our real lives, too. Lastly, this title makes a strong habit of giving NPC's names. You can hear mention of people by name in Jackson. While eavesdropping in an enemy camp, you hear people spoken of BY NAME. You are indeed killing people who are banded together to survive, just like Ellie or Abbey joined larger initiatives. Most of whom are probably not even a part of the story line or vengeance of either of the aforementioned. How easy it is for us to disregard life for our own iceberg. I didn't completely understand the game until it was over. Dark, but a valuable lesson.

[@Dsinatra3]

The museum part alone makes this game a masterpiece

[@gingrsnap1951]

I absolutely loved the structure of the game. Ambitious and crazy and truly empathetic

[@grizzz2422]

why have i watched so many last of us 2 reviews when i’ve completed the game also lol

[@zanvoy6848]

I really feel like the game would have felt a lot better if they had cut between the two stories more.

[@lilmupp875]

Nah that would too much too handle at once

[@kamyabbaghery5942]

Yea it could make the game more enjoyable and keeps the tension up, but it would be just about vengeance. Fun to play but empty within. The game has flaws no doubt but i think they did a great job for game industry, as a serious audience of movies (not just nolan tarrantino and these kind of shitty directors) i can say ND did a great job

[@KianOntong13]

I really wouldn't emphasise with Ellie by day 3 then, seeing how brutal and ruthless she's become and contrasting that with what Abby was doing for Lev and Yara

[@debuthunter5389]

@@lilmupp875 - I'd rather too much to handle than tedious and painstaking haha.

[@Weighty68]

Thank you for this video, Hamish. It’s staggering to witness just how I went through the same rounds as you did when I finished up the game last night in my hazy 6 hour push to finish what I thought woulda ended earlier in that damn theater! I kept thinking to myself, as my girlfriend called throughout the day during her first shift back to work and supplying her with narrative updates each time she did, that the game had to come to an end soon. Little did I know I’d be up at 2:40am having the credits role while Wayfaring Stranger was sang to me by our leads while still rattling around the can of comprehension in my head trying to make sense of it all. This morning was very sobering as a result and your video? A goddamn alka-seltzer. I came out to realize I really enjoy that this game exists. An interesting and slightly innovative sequel is much better than a safe one such as this game came out to be, but coming off the first game anyway, what would have been a safe sequel to a story that never needed it? Thanks for laying out your thoughts and I audibly gasped as you talked about the transition to the Abby section with your mind racing only wanting to be led back to the theater where our story laid suspended in a purgatory state. I’m forever grateful this game grants discourse in the way we’d expect out of a Naughty Dog release, but maybe not in such a drastically different way than what Part 1 warranted, sifting in its own ambiguous dealings. On the brightside, I never wanted to pick up my pen and get to writing my own takes on a game quicker than this!

[@SplitOrangeGames]

This is fantastic mate. Truly shocked you didn't include the texts you sent me while playing. Most genuine reaction to the game on the internet.

[@lightendavoid5060]

The thing about Abby’s campaign is that I dont think its just to show that your enemies have backstories, I think it was to show her character coming back from the cycle of vengeance reflecting Ellie’s descent deeper into it. I think it wanted to give a big picture view of the revenge cycle before the act(Ellie) and after the act (Abby) rather than just focusing on the pursuit of it in Ellie’s campaign.

[@franpol9000]

Abby parts should have happened much earlier in the game so you would know her character before she meets Joel. I feel like this is how it was suppoused to be before they realized how hard would it be to advertise a sequel where you wouldnt really play as Joel, and as Ellie you would play only in the second half.

[@Klausinator451]

Then you have to wonder why they'd even go through with such a dumbass decision.

[@alexisgutierrez7634]

Imo abby’s parts would’ve felt much better going back and forth with her and Ellie each day, but the Joel flashbacks were much more important to contextualizing Ellie’s decisions and staying true to the ending of the first game. Curious what your thoughts are on that

[@BackfallGenius]

@@alexisgutierrez7634 I'm sure they tried a back-and-forth but it wouldn't work gameplay-wise. Abby has totally different weapons and skill trees, and I'm almost positive playtesters would've given negative feedback on switching back-and-forth constantly confusing them in terms of what weapons and skills they've got available and unlocked for each character. Naughty Dog may have been able to solve that with tweaking how progression works, but I'm guessing that all of the gameplay was made after they knew that the game would have two playable characters in two separate halves for narrative purposes.

[@alexisgutierrez7634]

BackfallGenius interesting point. Even though I think people didn’t like having to build abbys skills and weapons up from square one so late in the game, you might be right that going back and forth would be worse. But damn that just goes to show how complicated it is to make a game like this, I was focusing on structuring narratively but I didn’t even think about how structure could hurt the gameplay like that.

[@potatoesblink3299]

@@BackfallGenius I was adamant about switching between Ellie and Abby but you drive such a good insight. I totally loved how the game did the pacing contrary to most people but thats just me. Its too ambitious for a game of this popularity

[@Demeor]

You make an excellent case for why Abby's episode was superfluous, I think, after hearing your take and thinking about it that I would have been ok with it being shortened or made optional. However, I do feel that the segment served to make the finale all the more heart wrenching. In some ways I think Abby is a more tragic character who was in danger of dying inside before grasping at an opportunity to retain her humanity, she didn't even realize why she needed it until that moment she almost killed Dina. Seeing these two characters fighting for their souls at the end was just heart breaking, and would not have been as impactful if I just wanted Ellie to win. I 100% understand the frustration of being denied the conclusion that seems right at hand on Day 3, and if you don't reset your expectation (maybe walk away from it for a day or two) then it starts to feel like an inconvenience. I really found your perspective interesting, and it made me think, thanks!

[@rearedlogarithm]

The game asks the player to sympathize with Abby because she's supposed to be a person that is going through the same path that Joel ended up on, and it's an interesting idea on paper. In execution I think the game botched it because Abby's story in the early part has no context and serves not to put her in a poor light but instead cast her as wildly incompetent, only surviving her impulsive plan through the charity of the very person she's out to kill; her then not only killing the person that saved her but doing so in the most graphic and unnecessary way possible and getting away with it (for a time) poisons the game's intentions from the very beginning. The game then double downs by accident by having Ellie's portion of Seattle played first then Abby's. Putting aside the fatigue and slog of having to do effectively the same levels over again but as the villain after leaving on a cliffhanger, the game tries to retroactively make all of the characters Ellie killed into being sympathetic characters that the player should scorn Ellie for killing and feel that Abby would be justified in killing Ellie and her comrades. However, since Ellie is played first you see that several of the major deaths were done in self defense, especially the pregnant woman, so when Abby is about to slit Dinah's throat even while knowing she's pregnant it only serves to make Abby look even worse to the player. I feel that, apart from completely rewriting the game and have the first half of the game be Abby's journey to find and kill her father's murderer so that players actually have time to learn about her and her comrades only to be shocked when her target was Joel, the best way to "fix" the game to match the game's intention of having Abby be sympathetic with a minimum of effort would be to swap the order of the Seattle chapters. If Abby's chapters were played first then you would meet the other characters without the foreknowledge of their demise and be shocked along with Abby when some mysterious assailants have slaughtered her friends and her little dog too; her rage would be immediately justifiable to the player, as the player does not know the context behind why Ellie killed everyone including the pregnant woman, which they discover when you play Elly's portion. Swapping the order in which you play Abby and Ellie's chapters wouldn't change what happens in the story, but I believe it would help avoid priming the player against Abby and reinforcing their distaste for her.

[@vallraffs]

It seems like a lot of what is here pointed to as problems with the storytelling come from a place of certainty and overconfidence in ones analysis, of not taking the game on it's own terms but only by how it measures up to the model you've set up for it to fill. The second half becomes bad simply because you've decided it is only there to tell you that "enemies have backstories and revenge is bad, that's it, and this is longer than that should be". Of course if you assume to know where the story is and know all the themes it will discuss before it even happens then you'll find it frustrating, playing a game and thinking it'll end any second instead of pacing yourself and not trying to rush through a whole chapter because you suspect it's almost the end.

[@Roy_Osovsky]

All the people that Ellie killed in the game were either attacking her first , or were refusing to cooperate , She always gave them a choice ! , Even the scene where Ellie kills Owen and Mel , she asks them for Abby , stating that she just want her and Owen makes a stupid mistake trying to grab the gun , after he's shot Mel proceeds with trying to stab Ellie and gets killed... And although I understand Abby's motives I can never side with her , I think she was wrong from the beginning , Team Ellie here all the way :) The fireflies weren't innocent , they were going to kill Ellie for the vaccine without her knowing about it , so what if that what she would have wanted , they didn't ask her first and that what makes them wrong , even Abby's dad is kind of a hypocrite to me , he was all about saving man kind with this one "small" justified act (basically murdering Ellie for the greater good ) ,but if it's was Abby's life on the line , he would never do it , notice he didn't answer Marlene when she asked him that. "If that's what it takes to save the world , it's better to let that world die ". (Geralt of Rivia) I did love the game ,and I feel so sad for Ellie ,and I hope we'll get to see more of her story in the future .

[@BriarPatchNyra]

Honestly these kind of comments are half the reason I didn't like the first game. The absolute refusal to consider Joel's actions as wrong. It ended with me hating the whole thing because his decision to take Ellie's choice away followed by lying about it to her ruined the entire game for me. Ellie tells him she's willing to die, whether the Fireflies consider it or not doesn't matter. And using the logic of another franchise doesn't really matter either. It's great Geralt decides countless innocents deserve to die rather than sacrifice one, but not everyone will or should. Those two teens bodies you find in the second game really drives home how badly the vaccine was needed. Joel loved Ellie, but what he did was purely selfishness, he didn't care about THEIR morality, he didn't care about her wants. He couldn't take losing anything else and so said all of humanity and the individual's lives and Ellie's wants, all didn't matter to him, in the slightest. Joel hurt countless people, and his fate was something he brought on. And I say that as someone sad about it, you can't live like Joel and never face consequences for your actions.

[@CaptainDecimus]

Raven And comments like yours are why I don’t like the second. Anyway, where did Ellie ever say she was willing to die for the cure? You could argue it’s implied with her survivor’s guilt, but she was never under the impression she would be killed during the procedure, and she sure as hell didn’t agree to it. The fireflies were far more selfish than a Joel ever was. They were willing to kill a 14 year old girl, with no idea of her consent, without considering the impact on her or her father figure, just for an incredibly vague chance at a cure. Even /if/ they made it, the fireflies were losing their war. “The cure” would’ve been a last ditch effort to save their own asses, we see nothing to suggest they’d share it, or could even mass produce it.

[@Roy_Osovsky]

@@BriarPatchNyra First of all I truly appreciate your opinion and where your arguments are coming from. I never said Joel wasn't being somewhat selfish , (and sad as it is, I completely agree that he inadvertently caused his own death.) Lying to Ellie about what happened in the hospital and keeping it a secret for so long was wrong , No argument here . He definitely didn't need to kill all those fireflies ( including Abby's dad and especially Marlene) on the chance that they will come after Ellie.....But still I understand his choice and could live with it just fine , Only because the fireflies (and especially Abby's dad) morality was twisted to me . Could they guarantee that by killing Ellie they would find a vaccine? Did they have the resources to mass produce it? , And if so , would they share it with other factions and people?? If any of the answers to even one of those questions was "no" then they shouldn't even consider it . Instead they needed to take their time and try to study why Ellie is immune without rushing to dissect her like some experiment. Why didn't they confirm their intentions with Ellie & Joel before jumping into the procedure?? That just might have prevented all of those deaths. And what I meant by that Geralt quote is that if what it takes to save the world is to kill Ellie ( without consulting her father figure and without her permission or knowledge, even if she would agree given the choice) on the astronomical small chance that somehow a vaccine could be developed , Then it's best to let That world die ( a world were such horrible decisions are being made ) . Only my opinion :)

[@Chessheromusic]

Exactly... the last of us - refers to the last of humanity. Being replaced by infected but moreover by pessimism, hopelessness, and the entropic nature of life. Joel had lost his humanity when he lost his daughter. For 20 years living as a survivor. A morally bankrupt, lost , soul searching for the smallest spark of meaning through his daughters death. Joel must keep breathing to mourn his daughter. I know what I’m saying is obvious. But I feel like a lot of it is missed in the sequel. I agree for the most part. I think Joel was the one perfect character whose choices and writing felt consistent with the character we met all those years ago. There was never a point in the first game where I did not understand how Joel or Ellie felt. With every choice , a question if I might do the same thing. I definitely was not with Ellie on her revenge fest. I would not choose what Abby did in the least. So, we get this huge dysphoria that completely losses our immersion. I think this primary disconnect is what everyone is feeling. Some, people can’t explain it and use others words. Some, blame who they see blamed. The defining moment with Joel. Was the moment he realized where Abby had lead him. It’s perfect because it is exactly what people criticize about his character here. Joel would not be that stupid?!! Well, that’s exactly Joel’s thought pinned to the wall. His anger is not towards Abby or these people he does not know. He is furious with himself. “This is what happens when you let your guard down” That angry look straight to his soul. “Why don’t say whatever it is you came to say and get this over with” This blind spot that critics of this moment has if consistent with his character. A girl Ellie’s age needed protection. After, becoming a father again, how else would he respond?

[@JeSt4m]

Exactly what I feels. I've read tons of book where character made questionable choice of action due to emotional outburst or nearsightedness and I never one who feel that character should act 100% rational in action. However even until the end of the game I can't understand Ellie at all, there's plenty of "broken" character I read before and I could still understand them but not Ellie.. it's like she's a frankenstein monster of several narrative back and fro. Abby actually is much more understandable than Ellie by the end of the game. I can quite put it into word or point out where the dissonance started but instead of a living breathing character who are motivated by something intrinsic inside of her, Ellie feels like a puppet that are moved by something external ; in this case the writer. Maybe it's the dissonance between gameplay and her story, maybe it's the plot contrivances, maybe it's the so called "Plot armor", maybe it's the ending. either way it feels like small pebble piled up over and over but often enough I feel like I can't stomach it. Ellie now is one of those character that I hate but I just can't explain why.. I can't explain it but there's also the reverse where I love a character but I can't explain why to the point which when there's tonal shift due to writer change I could spot it instinctively instead of logically. It's weird thing where I can't particularly point out why I like the character (most of her trait is something I actually hate) but I still liked her regardless. Ellie is the exact opposite of above, Her motivation resonate with me, the whole campaign actually feels okay, her outburst and rage actually I actually liked it and I understand why she went 180 again to get Abby at the end, Logically I have little reason to hate her but I still hate her instinctively. Actually it's closer to mix of disgust and fear than hate.. it feels almost like when I saw mascot or clown IRL which I feel the similar repulsion, possibly because I know that something beneath that friendly attitude and costume is something else I don't know. Anyway sorry I can't say it better, I just want to let this one out somewhere.