A Rambling Chat With Steven Erikson And A. P. Canavan

Steven Erikson and the Critical Dragon were so kind as to join me and talk about Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey, Malazan and a host of other things. There are very minor spoilers here.

[@ACriticalDragon]

Thanks Raf, that was a lot of fun.

[@Whiskeyjack_]

Your comment about not getting modern art actually brought to mind the video that made me "get" it. It's a brilliant video essay titled Who’s Afraid of Modern Art: Vandalism, Video Games, and Fascism by Jacob Geller. The meat of the video is about the relationship between modern art and fascism (a fascinating subject in it's own right), but in the video he also talks about several pieces of modern art in a way that really resonated with me. I cannot recommend that video enough.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Three days in climax! Phew. Someone with a sense of humor must have put up those signs. This is the third video I'm watching today with A.P. in it, so I almost feel like he lives here. Perhaps I should start charging him rent. Or, perhaps I have that wrong, and he should be charging me for the privilege of hearing him discuss literature. I appreciate this nuanced discussion on narrative from all three of you. Campbell was a big influence on me when I was a teen, and I still remember the excitement of discovering myths through the lens he provided. Though today I recognize the reductive nature of what he was doing, as A.P. was saying, I think his work can be an interesting tool at times. I also deeply appreciate what Steven Erikson was saying about his broad reading life and how it informed his fantasy writing. Excellent advice for all aspiring fantasy writers! Great discussion of generalists versus specialists. I'm an academic whose graduate education was unusually broad. During my PhD, due to the nature of my interests and what I wanted to study, I was ostensibly a medievalist, but I also read a lot of 19th century literature (because of the relevance of 19th century medievalism to my dissertation), and I studied comparative mythology (yes, Campbell did come up there!). On top of that, I teach at a community college, where I cover not just medieval literature, but also writing and introduction to literature. And, I teach Fantasy Novels! So, I think of myself these days as a generalist more than a specialist, and I would say there are corners of academia where we can exist. Thank you, Raf, for hosting this wonderful discussion!

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Heh, we have a town named Dildo in this country too, as well as a Bummer's Roost. However, they are not close in proximity to each other. Climax is twinned with a place in Australia, but it's not as exciting as you might think, they could be opposites... *cough*

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@Paul_van_Doleweerd In the meantime, the people of the state of New York can boast of their very own Coxsackie! I hear it’s at a fairly low elevation.

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

I think we can count ourselves lucky in some sense that we have the luxury of specialization. I would think that an increase in general knowledge is what drives this, if you look at the medical profession, specialization was nearly non-existant even a few hundred years ago, and even general practitioners had a limited knowledge of the body which is certainly no longer the case. The drawback is that the overall population experiences a knowledge gap and one that is ever increasing and unless education stops falling farther behind, it could lead to a distrust of those with knowledge.

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy On behalf of any readers from Coxsackie, I apologise for Philip Chase's comment. It was a low blow.

[@sweetlard2113]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy /snort

[@Hugh_Jas]

Raf: You like to pose rhetorical questions all the time. AP: Do we? Brilliant. That's a quick wit!

[@SpitfireStoryboards]

Laughed out loud at that.

[@scraggybeard]

Holy hell, Raf. I take my eyes off of you for one second, and you have a chat with the master himself ^^

[@profesortrip]

loving the kruppe impersonator on eriksons painting

[@fantasticphilosophy181]

Omg, you're absolutely right 🤭

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Hah, there's one sitting in his chair too.

[@captainbritain7379]

That’s actually a painting Steve did of Kruppe!

[@ReallyGoodandKind]

That was amazing. Thanks Raf! I’m glad Steve is around to see the type of analysis coming today.

[@captainbritain7379]

When I read The Hero With A Thousand Faces, I was struck by a similar feeling that Steve had watching the documentary. He often speaks as if he wholeheartedly believes the mythology he talks about (even though he doesn’t) which results in a sense of wonder and reverence about every ritual, regardless of the suffering involved.

[@thomasley4006]

Incredible. Probably one of the most important authors of the genre (if not at all, imo, but let’s stay focused.. ) - and here he is having a chat on a 777-sub-account. Don’t get me wrong, Raf, I love your content. But Malaztube is so very blessed to have such a person in our midst.

[@aleksandarivanov5860]

I'm so glad I discovered this content

[@anti-socialbaldmage4144]

This video makes youtube worthwhile for me.. I would like thank everyone involved in this interesting discussion...

[@nilanniruthan]

What an awesome discussion guys! I loved how Erikson pointed out that writers are the last generalists. I'd go even further and say writers are the first AND last generalists.

[@LesMartin]

This is so serendipitous, Raf! I was just thinking this weekend about gatekeeping and how Iskar is the anti-gate-keeper for Malazan. It's so easy for the high-brow, smarty-pants, rich analysis group to SEEM like gate-keepers. Passion leads so easily to this type of outward presentation of self. Iskar just sets it down for you and says it how it is and wants everyone to come along for the ride.

[@RoxanaMagdaD]

We are watching this as we speak, and loving it so much!!! Thanks for the awesome content! Great talk, guys, and the laughter is a bonus :)

[@biggestbadQM]

That was a beer bottle pop worthy of the discussion that followed! Excellent video. Sláinte 🍻

[@maryrosenose]

An excellent discussion on the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell, and more! Thank you, Raf! And thank you Critical Dragon and Erickson. You know, the study of theatre falls into many of the same specificity trappings. Regardless of their preferred area of study, I find that artists who are soaking up as much source material and information as they can, are typically the more effective storytellers and communicators. Another excellent point towards the end about art being driven commercialism. "Art that doesn't sell, is not good art" - what hogwash. As this discussion pointed out, you can put all the money in the world towards making a flashy project but that doesn't ensure it as being an enjoyable experience that people resonate with.

[@mikewoods8466]

Regarding the self-help notion, such resonant narratives are useful at a therapeutic level. I was a psych student, and there was almost a disdain for any ideas older than a few decades. Add to that the perceived separation from social sciences, anthropology etc. I can confidently say they would turn out a lot of better psychologists if they taught more Jung, myths, and literature. I think (as is a weakness in those who retread campbell’s ruts) the supposition is that we are trying to find a universal and thus create meaning, but Jung came at it the other way, which is that these stories are universal *because* they have meaning. Individuals have a mythology, just as a collective does. Rather, we have a body of mythology - which is an interesting phrase because it acknowledges the biological underpinnings, the instincts and their interaction with the social and the individual. Our guiding stories are influenced by (first) our biology, and (before we are even conscious I suspect) by sociocultural forces. The images and particular stories, as well as memories and experiences, that resonate with those underpinnings then feed back reflexively to shape personality. Anyway, so a fundamental drive or instinct, it seems, at least according to Jung and others, is the instinct to grow and mature - this is obvious at a biological level, and somewhat obvious in a social context. Jung extended that understanding to the spiritual level, in life’s second half, the search for meaning-what he called individuation. But really the pattern is just an extension, as growth and change is self-similar and occurs throughout the lifespan. Now, imagine you live in a society that is bereft of meaning and seems to devalue you as an individual. A great way to give someone who’s all at sea at least some steady footing is to give them a structure, the simpler the better. Something is better than nothing. So take a heroic journey as an exemplar of a growth narrative, and use it as a framework to get someone at least on a track, it doesn’t have to be the right one straight away. It has purpose, because you give someone an example to follow, to share their ups and downs, and reflect. In cultures or history (we presume) when myth and stories were central to life, these frameworks would be firmly embedded. Problem is, we can’t really band-aid over an absence of culture and meaning. But the popularity of trying at the very least speaks to the inner need. And the same applies to what AP said about being prescriptive-the simpler the better. The monomyth is about change and return. The stops on the journey (the stages as they are commonly thought of) are the variations. Curiously, it seems to me that as we are more individualised as a society/culture, we are more prone to falling under the spell of the collective myths - the mass consciousness. Though maybe that’s always the case. My guess is it’s somehow to do with our lack of guiding figures and stories on an individual level, and that need for structure is easily filled by mass entertainment or political movements, for example. (sorry textwall)

[@NiflrogsFolly]

28:20 That line 😂 it sounds just like a sketch from Yes! Prime minister This was great!

[@fantasticphilosophy181]

This was awesome, thanks! And cheers 🍻

[@MacScarfield]

Raf & AP, you are hitting the nail that the recent boom of Malazan-content with fandom, are because fans and Malazan-inclined persons are bringing so many new levels of engagement and different fields to both analyse and enjoy the series! Loved Erikson's take on Campbell and Human Sacrifice: Felt a lot of the same anger when the TV show "Vikings" (based on Ibn Fadlan's horrific real life historical descriptions) tried to make ritual g@ngr@pe & human sacrifice of a drugged-out slave girl during a Viking Funeral... "sexy"... On a less serious note: Ah, funny town names! Personally I have taken the train FROM Hell, Norway! It was pretty cold, so maybe Dante had a point about the Ninth Circle ... PS: Will we ever get the full and uncut "Erikson you are a monomyth-hack!"-rant?

[@bchuckry]

Bend here! This was fantastic! I hope we'll get to see more of you all chatting in the future :D

[@IskarJarak]

I’m not jealous at all Raf, don’t worry! But you deserve it-one of my absolute favorite channels!

[@zadig08]

This is great! Thank you so much.

[@claudiaiovanovici7569]

This was so much fun to watch! The first part reminded me of my own folklore teacher in college and all the crazy stories he told. That was a nice walk down memory lane :) And then there was the part about the media feeding everything to us, and that's a frustration I have had for at least two decades now. It's like poouring already digested food down our throats. All we have to do is sit put and take it. God forbid we have to make even the most minor intellectual effort! And that comes from the producers, not the public. I have never been able to understand people who accept it unquestionably and think that this is how things should be done. Maybe it's my own limitation in failing to understand it, but it makes no sense to me how anyone could enjoy having everything so easy. The comment about people not reading actively anymore is another thing I resonated with, since i have been noticing with frustration how people are unable to listen to music actively either. It probably plays right into that whole "don't bother to think, we will do it for you" tendency in the media. Speaking of things that don't make sense, I keep asking myself why do people think that a book has to function in a certain way and follow a certain pattern. Why bring that expectation and then dislike it when it brings something other than what you expected. Just let it happen. Unwrap the gift box (that would be the book) and see what's inside. Funny that you should mention geology, since the geological descriptions were some of the hardest things for me to go through in the books. A lot of which probably had to do with the language barrier as well. I enjoyed the challenge, and that is why I most certainly noticed the elements :)) I must side with AP on the "this is my experience and anything outside of it is not valid" thing. It's quite the fasion and an annoying one at that. As a matter of fact, I remember a really nice article posted in the Malazan Empire group that tied it to postmodernism. Lastly, as a former piano player, hearing that there are people out there who think that if they took the time and with a little bit of effort they could the same thing that music players do made me laugh the instant you said it. And yes, I too believe that consumerism is propagating the impression that art is something easy, something cheap, something that anyone can do. The hundreds (or more) hours of my life that I have spent practicing and the huge chunk of my childhood that they took away would attest to a very different reality though.

[@EricMcLuen]

Oh my goodness... Apes read Nietsche, they just don't understand it. Re.Campbell, he has an interesting theory/analytical device and takes all the bits that support it. Another thing much debated is how much of the myths were seen as historical fact or events. AP might have been a little flippant about the critic but it is a valid point. What was thought of as myth and how much as actual events. Religious fundamentalism has been the bane of science perhaps since its inception. Generalism is a necessary perspective so you are open to different ideas so your own opinions can evolve and either be made stronger or perhaps change. Was a physics/religion major and I told my brother in law I can think inside the box, outside the box or debate the existence of the box. While seemingly very different, each has their own way of looking at things that are actually complimentary. I think it was the cultural impacts on religion that drew me to it. And trying to figure out why people would go to war over the single vs. dual procession of the Trinity but they did. I did have to laugh about the discussion on movies not accurately depicting real places. They fimed part of a movie here in Des Moines and there was a nice helicopter chase over the airport which was nice. They there was a cut to the Polk County courthouse with palm trees out front. Not sure how many have been to Iowa but .... Regarding art, Erickson puts he was at the Iowa Writers Workshop on his bio. I dont know if Pollock's Mural was there but seeing it in person is awe inspiring. Sure on one level is is just paint splattered on a huge canvas. But on another it is very profound. Not sure if it could really be explained or if I would want it to.

[@jona2486]

I'm new to your channel, but I will definitely be watching from now on. This was so interesting and insightful. What a great discussion. Thanks for sharing.

[@theriddler2277]

I miss people like Carl Sagan in the public discourse. but they seem to be becoming rarer and rarer.

[@tyronereyes]

I love seeing Campbell in the crosshairs of three wonderfully analytical minds. I've always found The Hero with a Thousand Faces unnecessarily reductive, and Campbell exudes a certain smug pre-dismissal of any critique in the tone he writes with. The result was, I am always put off the entire time I am reading him, without fully understanding why. Love this discussion, and I love (LOVE!) that you re-ring the bell to close the video. I am sure Erikson appreciates the technique, if not the exact tone the bell made there (-grin-).

[@demidrek-heyward]

thanks Mr. Raf!

[@TheNapoleon86]

Loved this! Re-watching it now! :D

[@SpitfireStoryboards]

Great conversation. I work in the film industry and the modern , more simplistic formula relating to film story is called 'save the cat ' and its completely infected the minds of all executive producers to the point where if your story doesn't have x happen on page 56 etc, they disregard it. I'm with AP In that I see the merit in Campbell and others like that and the Hero's Journey, but its when it becomes THE prescribed formula, shit gets stale quick. Its a useful observation,starting point and tool but only one of many and absolutely can strip individuality out of story . Cheers

[@kimkimhvid]

A comment on the elitist/gatekeeping argument. I've convinced my 13 year old daugther to read GoTM. I'll let you know how it turned out.

[@Papachacobear]

Wowow thanks so much!

[@andrju3916]

The academia discussion was very interesting.

[@jagarrthecommenter7057]

Just writing in to say sorry, but actually middle management are the last generalists.

[@scarabee333]

Awesome!

[@s4010970]

This meandering discussion clearly deviates from the classic seven types of KZbin videos.

[@chaz9808]

Nice!

[@mikewoods8466]

Some of the desire for ingroup status is probably driven by the length and emotional depth of the experience. We need fellow travellers to be able to debrief. I can sympathise with the perceived functional role of story. There are a few ways that might happen. You could put the ‘universal’ knowns, ie the instinctive hooks of the growth journey, or the creation narrative in as a kind of mnemonic hook. But the other way to see it is that there may still have been other forms of story, but it has typically been the functional ones that have persisted for that very reason. They are continually needed. Initially that seems a little circular, but if the same patterns or the same sets of patterns are found somewhat universally, it would appear to strengthen the argument.

[@marsrock316]

What happened to Steven's bookcase?