A Royal What If Tale of Jane Seymour

Dive into an intriguing alternate history scenario where Queen Jane Seymour delivers a daughter instead of the expected son, shaking the foundations of Tudor succession. Join me as I explore the ripple effects of this pivotal moment in Tudor history, from succession crises to diplomatic manoeuvres, in a captivating discussion brought to you by me, historian Claire Ridgway. Don't miss out on this thought-provoking journey into the what-ifs of the past!
#alternativehistory #janeseymour #edwardvi #henryviii

[@carag2567]

The most joyous part for me in this hypothetical is that in almost any possible permutation, the darling and innocent Lady Jane Grey is spared.

[@gypsydonovan]

She wasn’t the naïve creature usually depicted. I’m not suggesting she sought power or wanted the crown, but had she lived I imagine she’d have become a zealous Protestant writer and preacher, at a very public level that would have made people uneasy about women’s roles (established in the Catholic Church but rules weren’t yet set for Lutheran/Anglican/Protestant denominations). She was devout, educated, passionate and not interested in being subservient to her husband, even if she loved him. Jane Grey might have changed the role of women in the umbrella of Christianity. Her sisters would have been allowed relatively normal lives. Mary Keys could have had a happy, if attention catching, marriage. Katherine… idk. I don’t think she’d have married either husband if not for political pressures. But maybe Henry, lord Herbert wouldn’t have abandoned her. I think a lot of people would have had happier, Longer, lives.

[@cplmpcocptcl6306]

She begged to be killed. As EVERYONE in the country understands. She was given numerous chances to be Catholic. She died as did Thomas More, John Fisher did for their faith.

[@Lin-rh6qs]

She did marry Henry literal days after Anne's execution and actively insisted on Henry getting rid of his wife so he could marry her. Yes, Henry was the true monster, but Jane was not some innocent little flower

[@raumaanking]

@@gypsydonovan what if Lady Jane Grey or Mary queen of Scots had lived and one of them became queen of England in 1603 how would England have been like in your opinion

[@carag2567]

@Lin-rh6qs I think you're thinking of Jane Seymour, not Jane Grey. Jane Grey was queen for nine (technically fourteen) days after Edward VI until she was usurped by Mary I and then executed.

[@barbararoca6847]

Poor Jane! I don't think Jane would have been the favoured wife, that is for sure! 😭😢😭

[@Turefu2]

It wouldn’t matter, she’d died soon afterwards anyway 🙄

[@edennis8578]

​@@Turefu2Maybe she was lucky. Henry had already threatened to have her executed.

[@trishayamada807]

What if one of the boys survived long enough… it’s all fascinating to ponder.

[@J.MacInnes]

Henry would have totally lost it at that point, believing himself to be cursed and become even more desperate.

[@thehistory_student]

A fascinating ‘what if’ 🧐❤️

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Thank you Claire ☘️ These what ifs are so interesting and thought provoking 🤔 When we think of a what if with Jane Seymour, it's usually a case of what if she had failed to produce a son, what would've become of her. Easy enough to imagine. She wouldn't have lasted. So it's refreshing to think, what if Jane had produced a girl instead of a boy and then dying 12 days later as she did. Henry couldn't have declared the child illegitimate as you've said. Nice thought btw, naming this girl that never was Margaret. Could definitely see that being a name of any other daughter Henry may have had.

[@MazMedazzaland]

I think Mary would have overthrown Margaret as well. I think Mary might have considered Reginald Pole instead, combining their claims to give their children a stronger one than either Elizabeth or Margaret. As for her half-sisters, I imagine Margaret and Elizabeth might either live in court or both gone to Catherine Parr.

[@Angie2343]

How about a what if tale for Anne Boleyn? Would Catherine Howard still be Henry's 'rose without a thorn"?

[@ccasey1904]

Interesting “what if” though Claire. Thank you for the interesting and provocative channel.😊

[@Shane-Flanagan]

I'm guessing we have Techie Tim to thank for the thumbnail imagining of the Tudor girl that never was Margaret. I can definitely see her being a product of Henry and Jane. I can also see traces of Mary and Elizabeth in her too 🤗 👑

[@kathrynwicklund5880]

Great insight Claire thanks! Also, I love that you named Jane’s hypothetical daughter Margret. For some reason that’s always what I thought she’d have named her daughter too

[@daarianaharis]

This is a most delightful thought experiment. How different England's history might have been ....

[@gonefishing167]

Hi Claire, interesting thought isn’t it? Life is full of ‘what if’s’. Thank you 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺

[@lazygardens]

Definitely could see Mary going for the lead.

[@UniqueInterpretations]

This hypothetical situation would never have resulted in an unchanged history post Jane Seymour's death in childbed. Firstly, in his desperate need for a son, Henry VIII would never have waited 2 years between her death and his remarriage to Anne of Cleves (during which time he let himself go physically as he mourned Jane). Secondly, in his desperate need for a son, he likely would have "sucked it up" with Anne of Cleves regardless of what little attraction he felt toward her, and she very well could have produced a healthy child, especially if he had married her immediately on the heels of Jane's death.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I agree but Katie's question stated that nothing else changed.

[@UniqueInterpretations]

@@anneboleynfiles One thing's for sure though, after giving birth to Henry VIII's third daughter, the best possible thing to happen to her was escaping Henry's wrath by dying of childbed fever. Poor lady either way.

[@mimisor66]

​@@UniqueInterpretationsif she gave birth to a healthy daughter and survived, she might have been given the chance to have another baby.

[@UniqueInterpretations]

​@@mimisor66 Yes, she most likely would have been given another chance, just like Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn had, but it likely would have been just one more chance, and she would have been riddled by anxiety the entire time (just like Anne Boleyn who miscarried a baby and perhaps experienced a phantom pregnancy), except that in Jane's case, she would also now know what can happen to queens who don't deliver... creating even more psychological distress, hence, why death in childbed would probably have been the preferable alternative.

[@januarysson5633]

The Seymours might have been more careful to take Mary into custody right after Henry VIII’s death than Dudley was to do it after the attempted usurpation of Jane Grey but we’ll never know.

[@carolynnr.6409]

Mary was a grown woman at the time of Henry's death. Why would she go with the Seymours? She raised an army after Eward, a male heir, died and made her move for the crown.

[@januarysson5633]

@@carolynnr.6409 John Dudley who was in charge of Jane Grey’s accession did not send men to take Mary into custody before Edward VI died. If he had done that the outcome may have been very different. When soldiers came knocking at your door in Tudor times it wasn’t a matter of choice whether you went with them or not.

[@carolynnr.6409]

@@januarysson5633 I agree if Mary would have stood still for "Margret"taking the thrown. When Lady Jane stepped forward it was a different story.

[@januarysson5633]

What if Carherine Howard was pregnant when she was accused of adultery by Cranmer?

[@susanroutt6690]

Exactly, would they have challenged that Henry was the baby’s father? Then chopped off her head? I feel sorriest for her out of all the wives.

[@medusagorgon8432]

First time watching and such a fantastic first time. This topic is delish! I have often wondered historical what-ifs myself. One of my favorite what-ifs is the outcome of both Hardrada and Tostig living to fight another day, while Harold and William dying at Hastings!😰

[@sixeses]

Thanks Claire. As far as I can tell James the 5th of Scotland was in between marriages at the time Jane Seymour died. Henry could have gotten him declared heir after marrying a re-legitimized Princess Mary. I think there was a proposal for this at some point when they were both much younger but you would probably know more about that than I. James V seems to have inherited his good looks from his mother and looked very little like the previous members of his Stuart Dynasty. Thanks for the memory exercise.

[@EllieDaisy]

I really hope Henry was able to see how amazing Anne’s daughter was in the end!

[@alancumming6407]

I agree. If 'Margaret' was named next in line, a succession crisis would follow. However, as Edward Seymour was still alive, should the two opposing forces join in battle - I'm not certain Mary would have triumphed. This was such a good 'what if' - I will be thinking about the possible consequences all day! Many thanks Claire.

[@theresalaux5655]

Very interesting Claire! Thanks 😊 ❤xo

[@cindyrobinson3077]

Very interesting wondering about what may have happened!!! But true history is also so interesting

[@racheloldridge4986]

It's hard to imagine that Henry WOULD have made the same choices in this scenario though

[@billij20]

Multiverse history.. Love it..

[@michellerhodes9910]

I think you are right that there would have been a Succession crisis because there was one when Edward died. Although Lady Jane Grey's succession had been ratified by Edward, and she was of royal blood, and totally legitimate, she was not more acceptable than Mary. The 'What If' crisis might have been gentler and given Mary chance to have children, and perhaps Elizabeth chance to find a happy marriage as she would then be unlikely to inherit.

[@dc7117]

I enjoyed this "What if" episode. Mary may have arranged marriages for both of her half sisters. I think she would have kept Margaret close (she would have been Catholic like Mary and Jane, speculating) and gotten Elizabeth married to a nobleman in another country. Elizabeth was very popular with the people of England and Mary probably felt threatened by that fact. So, those are my guesses. Thanks for a great episode!

[@elizabethwoolnough4358]

Mary did try to arrange a marriage for Elizabeth with a Spanish duke, hoping to get her out of the country, but Elizabeth wouldn't cooperate.

[@dc7117]

@@elizabethwoolnough4358 Makes a lot of sense, especially to a Spanish duke.

[@roseg1333]

I like the idea of the Protestant reformation not pushing forward with Elizabeth 😍 and Nary Queen of Scott’s would have most been spared too 😍😍

[@NYCEllieMonster]

Hello and thank you for your fascinating posts!! I keep wondering if the portrait locket Jane received from the King was ever found?! Does it still exist?! I hope you'll see this question 😊

[@heathersmith8549]

I believe Henry had more than 2 sons but only the 2 which he acknowledged. I think it’s safe to say he had more than 1 illegitimate children as he had many mistresses. Fascinating “what if”.

[@1234cheerful]

Great question! Thanks for taking it on!👑

[@ccasey1904]

The problem (or one of them) was that Henvy VIII was desperate for a son. For whatever reason, he felt he had to have at least one male heir. I don’t think a female heir ever would have worked for him EVER. Maybe a male cousin?

[@Turefu2]

But there was no male cousins. His nephews by Mary were dead and other cousins , well, also dead, this time killed by Henry himself.

[@ccasey1904]

@@Turefu2 Well, Henry had 2 sisters who both married. Mary married Charles Brandon and I believe he had another sister Margaret.

[@ccasey1904]

@@Turefu2 Or is that what you meant? I also don’t think Henry was of sane, rational mind. Don’t know what the exact mental diagnoses would have been.

[@edennis8578]

Henry wanted to avoid a civil war, and he felt that a male heir was necessary in order to do that. Remember that his father came to the throne as the result of a brutal civil war.

[@ccasey1904]

@@edennis8578 Oh, I am well aware of how hard it was for his father to secure the throne. But I still think Henry VIII was a dark and VERY odd duck.

[@6falconsue]

With all the intriguing "what ifs" set forth by Claire and those pondered in the Comments, it reaffirms my feeling that it was very fortunate that Elizabeth eventually became Queen. I'm no fan of Mary, but she and Elizabeth were the rightful successors in my opinion.

[@dragoninwinterfell5213]

I love these what ifs. I wonder if, had everything not needed to remain the same, if Henry would have handled the marriages that followed differently. Like not marrying Katherine Parr or trying harder with Anna.

[@gilliandrysdale5306]

very interesting ❤

[@marysunflower2185]

I think once Henry realized he wasn't going to have anymore children, he would have legitimized Mary and Elizabeth, and made a new will saying that he would be followed by Mary, Elizabeth, and Margaret, in that order, if Mary and Elizabeth didn't have children. He would have stipulated in the will that if he did have a male heir before he died, he would take precedence. Loved this video, thanks Claire!

[@--enyo--]

This was a really interesting question. I think it could have been just like the Jane Grey situation. But who knows?

[@AprilBird4]

Great "what if"! Part of me would have liked this scenario only because I'd have liked Henry to NOT have had a son. I occasionally have this day dream of something like the ghosts of Christmas from Scruge telling Henry it is his own fault he doesn't have a son. This would be much better(and possibly 😊)

[@sandrafennell6927]

Hi Claire. Who would have inherited the throne if Henry VIII Died without children? Thank you.

[@daniellemusella1594]

There's another marriage possibility for "Margaret": Scotland. Mary Stuart had a half-brother, who, though technically illegitimate, had great wealth, power, and military ability. If I remember correctly, he was, at one point, put forward as a match for Elizabeth. He'd have been a good partner, when it came to defending the rights of an underage queen. Of course, whether these two married in that scenario, or in the one with Mary TUDOR on the throne, would likely have depended on his choice of religion. If he followed his sister's staunch faith, then he would've definitely been very high on the list of potential husbands. If not, he would've been pretty much at the bottom, if he was there at all, though Margaret could've rebelled against her older sister by secretly traveling to Scotland and marrying him, anyway. It's fascinating to imagine the look that would've been on Henry VIII's face, if, after rushing to an exhausted and quickly fading Jane's bedside, he was handed another daughter by the midwife. I imagine that he would've glanced around the room, asking if there were twins, meaning a boy was born as well. Then, after receiving a reluctantly and fearfully given "No", how the muscles in his face would've gone slack. He would've heard the physician say that the queen had stopped breathing, and he would've immediately panicked about losing this chance, and about what this was going to mean for his and England's futures. He could've thought he was somehow cursed. But then again, he could've thought he was following the path of his maternal grandfather, Edward IV, who he'd always admired. The man had three daughters, before his heir came along. Even though everything else would've played out the same, as discussed in this video, I feel like he would've clung to that hopeful image for the rest of his reign, becoming very depressed when it does not come to fruition. (4/19/2024)

[@autumnpeacock4156]

Had Anne Boleyn not been beheaded and had no sons, and Henry Fitzroy survived… do you think Anne would have put up much fight over Henry making Fitzroy his heir?

[@user-xj2eg4te2i]

I can't find the full text of the second act of succession. I think we can derive conclusions from it. Henry would have thought the possibility to have another daughter. What was in Henry's mind is in the document. It was about Jane"s 'children" or "sons".? The words used is important. Henry left all options open to decide who will succeed him.... with letters patent or his will.

[@carolrondou6161]

Please do a what if Henry and Anne of Cleves remained married?

[@raumaanking]

Would you ever make a video on what if Lady Jane Grey or Mary queen of Scots were not executed and one of them became queen of England in 1603 how would England have been like

[@anthonytroisi6682]

Mary Queen of Scots did not have a talent for queenship. If still married to a Dudley, Jane Grey might have worse because the Dudley faction was corrupt.

[@heatherprice588]

It would have been Mary his eldest & the only child of Royal blood from father & mother who was a Spanish princess.

[@anthonytroisi6682]

If all his children were girls, Mary would have inherited the throne because the other daughters would have had no powerful supporter. With the heavily Protestant reign of Edward VI, England would have remained largely Catholic, especially if Mary married a Catholic. The perfect choice would have been a second son of a Catholic monarchy who would not raise the anxiety of Englishmen who feared being dragged into a foreign war. Mary would restore the Pope as the head of the Church but she would have accepted the rest of Henry's reforms. Coming to the throne at a younger age, Mary might have had children, She would immediately get rid of Elizabeth by insisting she be raised as a Catholic and marrying her off to some petty Catholic European royal. Also, she would insist that the Jane Grey and her sisters be raised to Catholics .

[@BlackCatMargie]

This is a 'what if' with too many possibilities, but I am certain of the same thing you are, Claire, that there would have been a succession crisis with Mary. Henry would have been desperate for a son, so he would have remarried instantly, meaning negotiations for Anne of Cleves would have taken too long, so a local noblewoman would have more likely been his 4th wife. From there? Boy, girl, or childless, the possibilities still seem to lead to Mary as either regent or Queen. Then again, Cromwell might not have fallen from grace and been executed, and he and Mary weren't chums, so who knows how he might have manipulated the King? The mind boggles.

[@rubyanne4909]

If Jane had lived, since she had one son. She would have been expected to have another. It would be a lot of pressure. Jane would have been expected to try again and again, and if those pregnancies ended in a miscarriages, still born or daughters, he would be blaming her. I know everyone was like she's his favorite wife. He loved her the most. She was his favorite because she gave him a son who lived longer than a few weeks. Just like he had a favorite mistress who gave him a son. I don't think he was that capable of actually loving anyone but himself. He found ways to try and make his daughters illegitimate and remove them from the line of succession. All he cared about was a son to carry on the Tudor line a male heir, fate said otherwise. Also, it's sad that both Catherine and Anne also tried to give him sons, and when they couldn't, he found ways to divorce one and allow the other to be killed on false charges. Would Jane have suffered the same fate? Henry blames his wives, but it was probably his fault as well. His desperation for a son Catharine and Anne's bodies probably didn't have a chance to actually heal and rest after birth or miscarriages before he was determined to try again. The stress of giving him a son at times probably became too much for them, so he found ways to move on to the next women. He wanted to be remembered as a great king, but he is known as the king that had six wives and found ways to rid of them when he tired of them.

[@edennis8578]

Henry had already threatened Jane with execution, so I wouldn't foresee a long and happy relationship. She was probably terrified.

[@curiousman1672]

Fun.

[@Jarvis_Mari]

If Mary did take over the throne instead of Margaret and kept her close under her wing, I feel as if she would have also made sure that she had a primarily Catholic education as well instead of the Protestant education that her brother Edward had, and if she still had no children in that timeline, I also feel as if she would hand the throne to Margaret thereafter instead of Elizabeth, who was more Protestant, in order to make sure that England stayed under Catholic rule.

[@laurieduerr4757]

Very good point about Mary likely taking the throne of Jane and Henry's daughter.. then there's also no Protestant reformation of E6, and the country stays Catholic, at least for alot longer than it did!

[@shawnnewell4541]

Wow, if it went that way and Mary had children, they'd be Hapsburghs not, Tudors or Stewarts etc. What an idea.

[@songoftheblackunicorn666]

I think Anne of Cleves would have been viewed differently

[@teribelyea9340]

If she could have a daughter she might also have a son. If that had happened and he lived to take the throne then Mary, Elizabeth, and "Margaret" would be cast aside.

[@kikidevine694]

If Jane had had a girl, and survived, she would have been disposed of and dead by the end of the year. He would have married another poor woman and kept going.

[@susanroutt6690]

What if Catherine Howard had a baby? Would she still be executed?

[@anthonytroisi6682]

Because of the adultery charge, the child's paternity would have been questioned.

[@susanroutt6690]

Ok. What if Mary the 1st had married young and had a son? Henry really prevented his own line from inheriting the throne.

[@anthonytroisi6682]

@@susanroutt6690 The perfect husband for a young Mary would have been James V of Scotland as a way to unite the two kingdoms.

[@jayhawkT1A]

Keeping all events the same just swapping Edward for Margret and her life taking the same path as Edwards( dying at the same age and from the same thing) The other option is that had Mary taken the throne earlier ( her first before Margret),she might have gotten rid of many more Protestant leaning people as well as Elizabeth I due to her refusal to follow Catholic doctrine and since Margret would have passed at the same age as Edward then the Tudor Dynasty could/would have died many years earlier and quite possibly Henry VIII would be the only one history remembered semi positively

[@KJ-qq1wr]

This is so off topic but I would love to see your tattoo on your arm.

[@dzas1987]

What if? If everything else remained unchanged, then Mary and Elisabeth would have the legitimate status and would have been restored to the line od succession at the moment of their father's death, as it was in reality. So not "Margaret", but Mary would be Henry's rightful heir and she would take the throne, without having to confront her 9-year old sister. And thank Goodnes,, because confronting "Margaret" would in fact mean a civil war against the powerful clan of Seymours, probably supported by the dowager queen Catherine Parr.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Katie was asking about the succession so she definitely didn't mean that staying the same and Henry would definitely have viewed his legitimate daughter by Jane as his rightful heir.

[@dzas1987]

@@anneboleynfiles Well, I wouldn't be so sure about it. I might be wrong, of course, but I can't help this feeling that the exceptional value Jane had in Henry's eyes was due to the fact that she gave him what he wanted so desperately - a male heir. I don't think that he loved her more than Catherine or Anne in their prime times, just for herself. I am not so sure that at his deathbed, he would appoint a 9-yearr old girl, instead of his first-born,. I think he would like to secure as stable rule for the Tudor dynasty as possible, and he must have been aware of the turmoil that appointing "Margaret" might have caused. If it is obvious for a historian that Mary would claim the throne for herselt anyway and most likely suceed, he must have seen this danger, too. Once again, I might be wrong, I am not a historian, but I would love to hear more arguments to support the "Margaret" scenario. That's a great advantage of watching this channel that one always learns something new.

[@elizabethwoolnough4358]

​@dzas1987 I wonder if Henry might have neutralised Mary in some way before his death, to ensure Margaret's peaceful succession. He could have arranged a suitable marriage for Mary to someone not powerful enough to invade England on her behalf. I can't see Mary accepting a younger sister as her Queen.

[@dzas1987]

@@elizabethwoolnough4358 Neither do I, to tell the truth. I wonder if Henry saw it this way. After all, he knew her better than anybody else.

[@Turefu2]

I agree, Mary would taken the throne. I don’t think she’d marry Philip though, more Reginald Pole or other English, distant cousin. Perhaps , with marrying younger and husband present by her side ( not like Philip leaving her to visit his countries ) , she’d had children. Elisabeth and Margaret would had marriages arranged for them and Jane Grey would lived.

[@serahloeffelroberts9901]

Reginald Pole was a cardinal in the Catholic church

[@carolynnr.6409]

Yes, Mary would make her move a take the crown. If she produced an male heir, England Would be Catholic today.

[@anthonytroisi6682]

The Protestant Reformation had already taken root in Scotland and Northern Europe. It would have eventually have arrived in England and taken root.

[@chelseaaschenbrenner4788]

What if Jane didn’t die in childbirth

[@chelseaaschenbrenner4788]

What if Jane survived and only had girls

[@marymcmahan5603]

What if there was no impediment to girls inheriting the throne? Elizabeth was one of the greatest monarchs of England, despite the fact that she assassinated Catholics. Which wasn’t cool either.

[@serahloeffelroberts9901]

Well they tried to kill her first. Jesuit assassins were sent to England to assassinate Queen Elizabeth

[@donnarogers7732]

What I found strange about these times is that the Woman is Always blamed for being in a Childless Marriage when it could likely have been Male Sterility! Of that was then and today we have Fertility clinics.lol

[@patriciapickett836]

Could you answer some 'real' questions and move away from the hypothetical, at least once in a while?? Interesting and imaginative speculation, but anyone's guess, and just a dalliance as opposed to learning new facts.